Spanking

[mommysammi]

Do you spank? I read some responses to a recent thread about punishing a DC for taking a chunk of his little sister's hair out. I don't recall reading a response that mentioned spanking. My question is, what if alternative methods like time-out or taking away a privilege/toy don't work.

My DS has repeatedly try to poke toys at DD even after a time-out or having his toys taken away. Nothing seems to work. He knows he can't do something, does it, then says sorry quickly. His sorries are not sincere, just what he thinks will get him out of a punishment. Some days, he even voluntarily surrenders his toys or goes to his time-out spot as though he's willing to take the consequences so he can have a little pokey fun.

I am on the verge at giving him a little spanking. Ok, a smack across his head. That's what I feel like doing but it's definitely not the way to go.

What to do? TIA.

[infomama]

I don't believe that hitting a child will improve a difficult situation nor will it teach them anything beneficial. Spanking/hitting a child is the result of a parent loosing control, IMO. As DD1 matures, our tactics often have to change in order to be effective. When a month ago a time out in her room would suffice we now find we may need to threaten to cancel a playdate to be heard.

I assume many of us struggle with this.

[JBaxter]

Yes I spank on occassion. I usually give a warning that the next time will be a spank. Its not a daily thing or even weekly but there are some situations that when nothing else has worked it gets their attention. I ONLY do a spank on the butt. I never hit on the head or face. I do not think its wrong to dicipline a child that way. I do think it is wrong to leave marks or hit with an object ( belt, paddle etc).

Our way works for us.

[klwa]

I do the "hand pop" more than actual spankings, but DH will spank DS if he's not getting what he needs out of time out. (Generally, the only time we spank or pop his hand is if he's endangering himself or others, ie his sister.)

[KrisM]

I've never spanked either. I have thought about it and wondered if it would be effective or not. But, I think that it would end up just like the timeout- not very effective any longer. Then, I'd have to spank harder the next time. That's what I'd worry about.

We've gone through times where DS will do something and very willingly go to time out, as you describe. Then, I just change the consequence. I tell him in advance that instead of time outs, he's now losing (computer, TV, trip to the park, playdate) etc. Whatever is big enough to really get his attention. We rarely get to the point of losing those priveledges these days. The first time he lost TV for the day, he was pretty upset. Now, the warning of that changes his behaivor dramatically.

BTW, it was my son who pulled out the chunk of hair. He was appologizing on his own and he hasn't put any spinning thing near anyone's head since.

[lizajane]

D He knows he can't do something, does it, then says sorry quickly. His sorries are not sincere, just what he thinks will get him out of a punishment. Some days, he even voluntarily surrenders his toys or goes to his time-out spot as though he's willing to take the consequences so he can have a little pokey fun.

all he wants is your attention. i have that same kid. as contrary as it sounds, give it to him. he is willing to take the negative attention over none, so he is going after it. find some time to separate DS from DD and the lavish him with positive attention. heap it on. repeat...

then the next time he pokes, tell him that hurting his sister is not an appropriate way to get your attention. you do not want to play with him when he is ugly and you will be ready to play again when he wants to use his good behavior. separate him from DD so she doesn't get hurt and the IGNORE HIM until he is being nice again.

if you hit him, you are only reinforcing the bad behavior HE is using to get your attention. you are telling him that hitting works- you poke your sister to get my attention, so i hit you to get your attention. the cycle won't end. and frankly, i bet he might even start "spanking" your DD when she does something he doesn't like.

you can also try playful parenting. when he pokes, you take the toy and tell him, "i saw you poke your sister... if you give her a kiss, i will TICKLE YOU!!!" or "don't you DARE give her a hug!!!" or "don't even think about trying to make her laugh!!!" and then dramatically respond with fake distress. he will be cracking up in no time.

[lmwbasye]

We don't spank. To each his own, but DH and I don't see how hitting a child will solve anything or teach them anything other than hitting is okay in some situations. IMO, hitting is never a solution to a problem and I want my boys to learn that.

I've done a lot of trying to focus on why DS1 is showing the behaviors he has and trying to help avoid the specific situations that cause them, if possible. I try to teach him alternative reactions (tell your brother you are angry he took his toy instead of pushing him down and grabbing it). We have a "problem tent" (DS1 named it this) where he can go if he needs "alone" time or time to cool off. I will do time-outs and he does lose privileges. In fact, a couple of weeks ago, literally every toy that was his was boxed up and sent to the garage with the idea that he could earn them back. This sort of backfired, though, b/c he hasn't missed them at all, LOL!

Now, don't get me wrong, 10 out of 10 days I feel like I'm losing my mind with DS. He is an extremely high-needs, spirited child that experiences consequences every day, but that is another post. LOL! What I'm saying is that it's a process and part of being a child. I see my job as a parent is to teach him how to handle various situations and that our choices have consequences. I don't see how hitting would help any of this other than to teach him to hit his brother.

I know others don't agree and, like I said, totally to each his own. This is just the choice DH and I have made and the way we have decided to handle discipline.

[hillview]

We don't spank. If DS #1 is doing something to DS #2 that is not ok we move them to different rooms / take toys away / time outs. Also I think it depends on the age, DS #1 is 3.5 and he does the not very sincere "sorry" thing -- I have him "try again" and sometimes a hug helps.
/hillary

[mommylamb]

We don't spank either. DS is only 20 months, but I have no intention of spanking even when he gets older. My parents never did it to us (my sister or me) and I know I was terrified if they were to even raise their voice to me, I certainly never needed a spank. I agree with the other posters. It doesn't teach the child anything other than mommy/daddy will hurt you if you are bad. I never want my son to feel that.

[gatorsmom]

I have given spankings on the bum before but it has never really been all that successful. I would NEVER, no matter how mad, physically hurt my children other than a slap on the bum. But I really don't do that much either since ti really just makes me feel guilty and it seems to confuse and sadden my kids. They just look at me like, "why, mommy?" So, no more of that.

If they are doing something really naughty and the timeouts don't work, I will take away their favorite toy- you know the one that they are most attached to. I'm very consistent about doing what I threaten to do, though, so they take me seriously. I really think that's importnat now and later on when the issues become serious. If my kid is taking drugs, I want him to believe that I will send him off to a behavioral school (or something similar) if he doesn't stop. (I'm kinda a drill sargeant so this comes naturally to me).

[kijip]

For us spanking is not an option, period. I personally don't believe it works well. My husband grew up in a physically abusive home, anything that comes close to reminding him of that is not good so there is that added dimension to why we firmly don't believe in physical punishment. So we just don't see it as an alternative punishment. The only time I have considered it, fleetingly, is in anger and when I am not at my best by far. I think that speaks for itself.

[sste]

I will never spank. I grew up in a household where spanking in the preschool years turned to hitting in the face in elementary then to belts, banging heads against walls, on a few occasions throwing steel objects and furniture at us. Obviously, many spanking parents don't end up down this route and my parents had some serious issues. But I do think there is a risk that your control will slip one day or that you will need to escalate spanking across childhood if you don't find other effective means of discipline. And if you are going to need to find other effective means of discipline then why not just find them now and don't spank?

I also believe strongly in modeling appropriate behavior. How could I face DS if after telling him not to hit or throw if I then turned around and spanked him?

Most importantly, I don't trust myself to spank. I have a temper. I don't want to start down that road. What if I lost control one day . . .

[brittone2]

No, and I never felt the need to.

Gentle discipline or not, all discipline usually requires repeat, repeat, repeat...sometimes behaviors are just part of development, and while annoying and challenging, no matter which way you approach it, IMO it usually requires consistency and time before it passes. It still requires repetition, patience, explanation, etc. no matter which way you approach it.

I'm big into the whole "get off your butt" parenting thing. I find that getting up and physically intervening (separating my kids, physically redirecting, etc.) eliminates a lot of problems. I don't think gentle discipline is permissive. I try to view it as discipline=to teach, and my job is to show them the rules of society and how to treat one another. For me, spanking just doesn't factor into that equation. I personally am not comfortable with the message hitting-as-punishment sends to a child.

I also have found things like playful parenting, etc work so well in so many cases. I agree w/ Liza's suggestion...that type of thing works well for us...from not so nice language/words to stuff like poking. Extra dramatics from mommy makes it work much better ;)

Kids really take time to develop empathy from a developmental standpoint. (edited to fix:) You can't make them *feel* something that they aren't able (developmentally) to feel yet. You can model it, you can encourage it, but you can't make it happen if they aren't there yet.

There are some interesting books on punishment/rewards (Alfie Kohn's book for example). You mentioned trying to "get out of" punishment. That's one of the key problems. There is research that shows kids who are punished often just become better at avoiding getting caught (for example, only doing the behavior when they know there are no adults around to "catch" them). It makes some people question whether kids are then really learning the moral lesson or are they simply figuring out ways to avoid being caught and punished? It is human nature to lie or behave a certain way in an effort to avoid punishment if you think that's what will happen to you...there isn't much incentive to tell the truth.

Spanking in response to poking doesn't seem like it would teach the desired lesson, IMO. It seems like it could send a very confusing message to a child if you are punishing them *physically* for doing something physically to their sibling, kwim?

Maybe you can give us scenarios that are challenging for you and we can give you some non spanking ideas to try if you are open to that?

I also love the gentle discipline boards (that section can be read without registering) at www.gentlechristianmothers.com even though I don't consider myself a conservative Christian.

Need to run- getting kids dressed to head out in the last remaining bits of snow.

[DrSally]

No, I don't. Even if you're thinking of it as a last resort, it doesn't work. It's ineffective. Research showas that it may temporarily suppress behavior, but will cause anger and/or fear in the long term. (In addition to philosophical reasons I have for not spanking). IMO, it is more for the parent to release his/her anger and that has the potential to get out of control.

[rprav8r]

We do not spank. I was never spanked, and I think I turned out okay. I don't feel that hitting is an appropriate behavior, no matter who is doing it.

It's *hard* to get DS's attention and help him to behave properly. Tons and tons and tons of repetition. I heap on the praise for a job well done. I constantly remind him to use gentle hands and kind words. Logical consequences whenever possible (he throws his toys, he cleans them up).

It sounds like your DS doesn't care about time out. You need to find something that he really cares about. Maybe if he goes all day w/o poking, he gets a special dessert, or if he goes a week, he gets a "date" with mom. Finding out what makes him tick, and how to reward good behavior, instead of punishing bad.

DH and I knew before we had kids that we were never going to spank, or even be particularly punitive. It takes so much creativity and hard work to discipline DS w/o hitting or yelling. But it is the right thing for our family. If we expect DS to be kind, gentle, caring, and generous, then we must be kind, gentle, caring, and generous with him. That's not to say that we *always* are, or that we don't have our moments of frustration and being at wit's end, but for the most part we really try to practice what we are preaching to him.

[Rainbows&Roses]

No, absolutely not. I was spanked with belts and hairbrushes and it was degrading and violent. I will never forgive my dad for choosing that method of discipline for stupid stuff (like talking back to my mom when she was being unfair - we were good kids, that is about as bad as it got.)

We use time-outs and have changed the discipline as necessary when that wasn't working. For example, she has a weekly rewards chart for behavior/chores and she hates not getting a perfect day.

We grew up in fear of my dad and that is not the way I want my child to view her parents. I do not need to show my dominance over my daughter by using violence.

[lubdubdeb]

It matters very much what you mean by spank. I think that the kind of thing most people on this board are responding too, I would never do. But we do occasionally spank.

I think some people should never spank, because if you are doing it out of anger, or losing control as a PP mentioned, it is not okay. Some kids should never be spanked, because aggressive kids get more aggressive when disciplined that way.
When we spank I send my child into another room where she waits for me. I calmly spank a couple of stinging slaps on the bottom (which I absolutely hate doing) and then I hold them while they cry. Afterward we talk about what happened that prompted the punishment. We don't leave the room until we hug and tell each other we love each other.

Whatever you may think, spanking is not ALWAYS losing control. It does work if done the right way to the right kid. The research on spanking unfortunately is very suspect, because if a researcher asks a family if they spank, ten families that say yes will mean ten different things.

[Mommy Of A Little Angel]

We don't spank at all. DD responds very well to time outs which is helpful I guess. I told DH before we had kids we would never spank. He didn't want to rule it out but I stood firm. We discussed it and he agreed there were other ways to get our point across. There are many reasons I don't do it. I don't want DD to be afraid of DH or I. I also don't want her to wait with the anticipation that she is going to get spanked. Plus, when she gets in trouble for hitting, it just seems ironic to spank her for it, kwim?

[maestramommy]

To the OP, I totally understand that feeling of wanting to smack, seriously. I did spank a few times, but 1) it didn't really seem to get the point across, and 2) I wanted to save it for something really egregious, like running in front of a car. 1-2-3 Magic really saved my sanity, it even freed me from feeling anger. I can't explain why. But somehow saying as little as possible kept anger from building up.

[egoldber]

We do not spank. The research I have seen says that children who are spanked (on average) are not better behaved and often learn to "behave" when there is an adult around and then behave differently when they know there are no consequences.

Some days, he even voluntarily surrenders his toys or goes to his time-out spot as though he's willing to take the consequences so he can have a little pokey fun.

I completely agree that he is doing this for attention. I find that when my kids are misbehaving almost always it's because they want my attention and have not been getting it.

ll discipline usually requires repeat, repeat, repeat...sometimes behaviors are just part of development, and while annoying and challenging, no matter which way you approach it, IMO it usually requires consistency and time before it passes

:yeahthat: Parenting is hard. Getting through those preschool years is rough. Of course, the older years are just different. ;)

That all being said, I completely and totally get the urge to spank a kid in anger. I *get* that. Sometimes I am so angry and frustrated, and then I realize that what probably needs to change is *me* and my attitude, not them so much, KWIM?

[sste]

For those of you who have your child tell you that he loves you after spanking, do you find that part helpful? I guess for me the exchange of I love you's after spanking is a little unnerving. In the child's position, I wonder if I would think: "I have to say I love you because I was just hit and may be hit again."

Worse, what if the child starts to view spanking/hitting as part of a loving relationship?? To me, this image is so evocative because its what so many spousal batterers do - - after the violence they tell the spouse how much they love her and that it was for her own good and often ask the spouse to say I love you back.

Am I overthinking this? Does it work differently in practice?

[egoldber]

Worse, what if the child starts to view spanking/hitting as part of a loving relationship??

This is EXACTLY why I will never spank. It normalizes hitting in a loving relationship.

[lubdubdeb]

It is different in practice than what you are thinking. The main difference is that when you spank, you have not hauled off and hit your kid out of anger, and you are not begging their forgiveness for an abusive action. The entire thing has to be done in love and with love. The way I saw it when my dad did it and the way I see it with my kids is that it puts closure on the moment. Then when you leave the room or the moment, there are no hard feelings, the bad behavior has been forgiven and you are off to a clean start. My kids tell me they love me a thousand times or more for every I love you that is part of being punished.

[brittone2]

For those of you who have your child tell you that he loves you after spanking, do you find that part helpful? I guess for me the exchange of I love you's after spanking is a little unnerving. In the child's position, I wonder if I would think: "I have to say I love you because I was just hit and may be hit again."

Worse, what if the child starts to view spanking/hitting as part of a loving relationship?? To me, this image is so evocative because its what so many spousal batterers do - - after the violence they tell the spouse how much they love her and that it was for her own good and often ask the spouse to say I love you back.

Am I overthinking this? Does it work differently in practice?

ITA. I typed a similar question earlier and deleted it before posting.

I also think this raises the issue of why we would not do certain things to our spouses or another adult yet feel it is acceptable to do to our children (I think this extends to issues beyond spanking).

[tarahsolazy]

The entire thing has to be done in love and with love. The way I saw it when my dad did it and the way I see it with my kids is that it puts closure on the moment. Then when you leave the room or the moment, there are no hard feelings, the bad behavior has been forgiven and you are off to a clean start.

Hitting is never love, and cannot be part of a loving relationship, IMO. Why is it OK for you to cause your child pain, to teach them appropriate behavior, yet wrong for your DH to do the same if you behave in way he feels is inappropriate? If my husband hurt me physically, or even emotionally hurt me when we disagreed on something, I don't think that would help me understand his side of the issue. Or make me want to do what he wanted. I see my kids in the same way, I don't know how that helps them be motivated to learn socially appropriate behavior. Kids deserve the same respect offered to adults, in my world, which is certainly not everyone's. Add me to the ones who feel creeped out with the idea of asking a child who has just been caused pain to state that they love the person who made them hurt. I'm sure it works fine for you, but it makes no sense to me.

[brittone2]

The entire thing has to be done in love and with love. The way I saw it when my dad did it and the way I see it with my kids is that it puts closure on the moment. Then when you leave the room or the moment, there are no hard feelings, the bad behavior has been forgiven and you are off to a clean start. My kids tell me they love me a thousand times or more for every I love you that is part of being punished.

As far as closure, aren't there many other ways to have closure that might be equally or more effective?

Do you feel that pain/punishment is a necessary part of learning? Or can we learn without feeling pain (physical or emotional) in the process?

[JTsMom]

We have a no hitting rule in our family, and it applies to every one of us. Our reasons are the same as those that have been already listed, so I'll just say that I agree with those who said they feel it is wrong, that it models bad behavior, that it's not an effective method of discipline, and that there are better ways. There is a reason that professional organizations such as the AAP say spanking is a bad idea. It's even outlawed in many countries!

[Mommy Of A Little Angel]

The entire thing has to be done in love and with love. The way I saw it when my dad did it and the way I see it with my kids is that it puts closure on the moment. Then when you leave the room or the moment, there are no hard feelings, the bad behavior has been forgiven and you are off to a clean start. My kids tell me they love me a thousand times or more for every I love you that is part of being punished.

I can't imagine it being done in love and with love. Doesn't that associate love and hitting? Even if not, I don't think there is anything loving about spanking a child.

Also, I don't think spanking and closure are associated. There are other ways to put closure to a situation. DD spends her time in time-out, then we talk about what happened, she apologizes and we hug and kiss. The issue is done and we move on with our day. No spanking necessary.

[lizajane]

Then when you leave the room or the moment, there are no hard feelings, the bad behavior has been forgiven and you are off to a clean start.

but who do you KNOW for sure that your CHILD feels that way?? maybe YOU feel like you are off to a clean start. but what about your kids? can you be certain that they are not still fearful of being hit hours later? my son has OCD. and i can promise you that if i struck him, he would NOT be "off to a clean start" as soon as i left the room. he would still be traumatized hours later.

[lubdubdeb]

I get that lots of you disagree with me. I'm fine with that. But come, on...

No I do not think kids have to feel pain to learn (although at times pain is effective, ie the hot stove). I don't spank my kids every time I punish them. It is quite rare in fact. But it is one of the many ways we use to teach our children.

I think it is ridiculous to say that you would not do something to your child because you would not do the same thing to another adult. Would you put your spouse in time-out? Our job as parents is totally different than any relationship you have with another adult. If you do not think so, I believe you have abdicated your position as parent and your children are missing out. They cannot raise themselves, whether you believe in spanking or not.

[ladysoapmaker]

We have 4 kids ranging from 8 months to 12 years old. I don't like spanking. When we have done it, which thank goodness has been rare, it's to get them out a a bad/dangerous situation. ie DS#2 trying to jump off the roof of the garage. DS#2 is generally the one in trouble, he tends not to be concerned with consequences, (it's almost as if he's thought about them and decided it doesn't matter) and it's the only way we can get his attention. Thought lately we haven't had to spank with him. Me just saying I"'m disappointed in you" seems to get a hang-dogged expression and slinking into a chair for time out. But he's 8 now so hopefully he's finally learning.

[egoldber]

Would you put your spouse in time-out?

Just this weekend I suggested that DH put himself in time out. ;) But seriously, his behavior was not acceptable and I suggested to him that removing himself from the family for awhile would be a good thing for everyone.

I just don't see any need for physical punishment. There is nothing that can be learned via physical punishment that cannot be learned in other ways. So why use it when there are other options?

[brittone2]

I get that lots of you disagree with me. I'm fine with that. But come, on...

No I do not think kids have to feel pain to learn (although at times pain is effective, ie the hot stove). I don't spank my kids every time I punish them. It is quite rare in fact. But it is one of the many ways we use to teach our children.

I think it is ridiculous to say that you would not do something to your child because you would not do the same thing to another adult. Would you put your spouse in time-out? Our job as parents is totally different than any relationship you have with another adult. If you do not think so, I believe you have abdicated your position as parent and your children are missing out. They cannot raise themselves, whether you believe in spanking or not.

I get your point, but your point IMO seems to assume that the only way to learn (since discipline=to teach) is through punishment. I don't think discipline and punishment are equivalent, although they are often treated as such.

I'm probably more strict than many people I know, in that while I don't spank (or use time outs, other than having DS go to his room at age 5 when he is positively raging, until he can calm himself down...but there's no forced amount of time, etc.) what I do do is to reinforce what I say. If my child isn't doing what I say, then I am right there helping them to do it. It is a royal PITB in the beginning, but in time, I think it has showed them that my words have meaning. So one person might view not "punishing" as being permissive. But I don't think I"m permissive at all. I think it comes back to being able to be authoritative without being authoritarian. I feel I can teach my children the acceptable way to behave without inflicting physical or emotional pain.

So no, I don't use time out either. But I'm not a permissive parent. I'm a get-off-my-butt parent (and I'm not saying that you are not, lubdubdeb...I'm trying to explain how I perceive permissiveness as being different from someone who doesn't punish.) Not punishing does not equal being a permissive parent who does not follow through with teaching the right way of behaving/reinforcing family rules. Therefore, I don't think my children are "raising themselves" by any stretch. I think it is very possible to teach the right way to act without punishment. Conversely, there are parents who are very permissive and spank after saying "stop that" or "knock it off" ten times prior to actually acting. Spanking doesn't make someone authoritative, just as *not* spanking doesn't equal a permissive parent.

edited to fix typos

[missym]

I know a lot of people equate spanking with hitting. When I was growing up, we had both hitting and spanking in our family. Even as a young child, I knew the difference. I still hold a grudge about the hitting, but the spankings - well, I remember the reasons for those and honestly I was warned.

[mommylamb]

I get that lots of you disagree with me. I'm fine with that. But come, on...

No I do not think kids have to feel pain to learn (although at times pain is effective, ie the hot stove). I don't spank my kids every time I punish them. It is quite rare in fact. But it is one of the many ways we use to teach our children.

I think it is ridiculous to say that you would not do something to your child because you would not do the same thing to another adult. Would you put your spouse in time-out? Our job as parents is totally different than any relationship you have with another adult. If you do not think so, I believe you have abdicated your position as parent and your children are missing out. They cannot raise themselves, whether you believe in spanking or not.

Just wanted to say that while I don't agree with you on spanking, I don't think that makes you a bad parent or anything like that.

[DrSally]

The research on spanking unfortunately is very suspect, because if a researcher asks a family if they spank, ten families that say yes will mean ten different things.

Just in general, from a pure science perspective regarding operant conditioning, punishment with kids (whatever form that takes, spanking being one of them) is not nearly as effective as positive or negative reinforcement.
That's a proven fact.

[Pennylane]

I know a lot of people equate spanking with hitting. When I was growing up, we had both hitting and spanking in our family. Even as a young child, I knew the difference. I still hold a grudge about the hitting, but the spankings - well, I remember the reasons for those and honestly I was warned.

Same with me. The few times I was spanked, well let's just say that I probably deserved it. There was never any "hitting" in our house. Spanking and hitting are two different things to me. I don't look back now and think bad of my father because I was spanked on occasion.

Personally, I am on the fence about it. I don't like to spank. It makes me feel rotten. But there has been a time or two that we have spanked and it has been a last resort.

Ann

[maestramommy]

I know a lot of people equate spanking with hitting. When I was growing up, we had both hitting and spanking in our family. Even as a young child, I knew the difference. I still hold a grudge about the hitting, but the spankings - well, I remember the reasons for those and honestly I was warned.


I know what you mean. Dh grew up like this, and he can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times he was spanked. And he still knows he thoroughly deserved it. Which is probably why he has a more lenient few on the subject than I do, even though I'm the only one that has spanked.

[lubdubdeb]

Trying to quote but don't know how!

I agree that discipline and punishment are not equivalent. Because the point I was making was about punishment in particular, I chose that word. But punishment is only one of the methods we and other parents who lovingly choose to spank use to discipline.

The other things people are telling me they do instead, such as getting off your butt, are also things I do. All day. My least favorite phrase in the English language is "Don't make me come over there..." for so many reasons I can't explain them all here. It is the epitome of poor parenting to me. But while I teach, and get down and look my children in the eye, and use lots of types of consequences immediately after they don't listen to help them get to obeying the first time, and try to always (I said try!) reinforce the positive, I also spank on rare occasions that they are in danger or so defiant I know they are saying in their little hearts "you are not the boss of me." Because at this stage in their lives I am the boss of them. The way they respect me is the way they will respect their teacher, police officer, boss, etc.

[maestramommy]

Trying to quote but don't know how!

I agree that discipline and punishment are not equivalent. Because the point I was making was about punishment in particular, I chose that word. But punishment is only one of the methods we and other parents who lovingly choose to spank use to discipline.

The other things people are telling me they do instead, such as getting off your butt, are also things I do. All day. My least favorite phrase in the English language is "Don't make me come over there..." for so many reasons I can't explain them all here. It is the epitome of poor parenting to me. But while I teach, and get down and look my children in the eye, and use lots of types of consequences immediately after they don't listen to help them get to obeying the first time, and try to always (I said try!) reinforce the positive, I also spank on rare occasions that they are in danger or so defiant I know they are saying in their little hearts "you are not the boss of me." Because at this stage in their lives I am the boss of them. The way they respect me is the way they will respect their teacher, police officer, boss, etc.

I know spanking is not popular on this board, but IMO you shouldn't feel like you need to defend what you do. I know parents that spank, and they are d@mn good parents. Their children are dearly loved, and they know it. They have many tools in their parenting box, and spanking just happens to be one that is hauled out when they feel it's necessary. They also do timeouts or timeout alternatives, charts with stickers and rewards, the whole thing. Whatever is suitable for the child, the situation, etc.

I just want to say that while it *might* not be a popular notion right now I also agree with your last statement. Because as parents we ARE the boss of our children. I probably can't explain it in a way that will take the sting, but that's the way I see it. For ME, to act as if it were any different would be irresponsible.

[Moneypenny]

Same with me. The few times I was spanked, well let's just say that I probably deserved it.

It makes me sad that someone feels they deserved to have physical force used upon them as a child. I can't imagine anything a kid would do that makes them "deserve" to be hit by their caregiver.

[Tracey]

We don't spank for a plethora of reasons. I could go on and on about my views on discipline, but I'll stick to the question at hand. For the poking at the sibling....you've been given some good suggestions for staving off the behavior. Using humor before any poking happens and giving extra positive attention to the oldest away from the youngest are good preventative tools. If the poking has already happened you may want to try this: Get down to your son's eye level and tell him in a firm but calm voice, "You do not have the RIGHT to hurt your sister with your hands or your words. I EXPECT you to use gentle touches with your sister..like this (show him). You hurt her, now it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to try to help her feel better." This is where you have him make amends for what he did. Get some suggestions from him about what he can do...things like get her sippy cup, favorite toy, say he's sorry, kiss her cheek, show her his favorite toy...whatever. You get the picture.
It is very concerning that he is willing to give the poke and go to time out...this is typical of punished children. They have learned to ask themselves "Is it worth it?". What you really want is a self-disciplined child that doesn't poke without you saying anything.

PLEASE...from the bottom of my heart,mother to mother, get the book Discipline for Life by Madelyn Swift. It gave me what I needed to be more of the parent I want to be. Nobody is perfect and I make tons of mistakes with my daughter..but I try. I will keep trying for her because she is worth the effort and I love her more than the air that I breathe.

[Ceepa]

I know spanking is not popular on this board, but IMO you shouldn't feel like you need to defend what you do. I know parents that spank, and they are d@mn good parents. Their children are dearly loved, and they know it. They have many tools in their parenting box, and spanking just happens to be one that is hauled out when they feel it's necessary. They also do timeouts or timeout alternatives, charts with stickers and rewards, the whole thing. Whatever is suitable for the child, the situation, etc.

I agree with this.

[JBaxter]

I know what you mean. Dh grew up like this, and he can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times he was spanked. And he still knows he thoroughly deserved it. Which is probably why he has a more lenient few on the subject than I do, even though I'm the only one that has spanked.

You said it well :)

Ive been at this parenting thing for 17 1/2 yrs and I have used many if not all known parenting styles in different combinations depending on age/maturity. I do/have on occassion spanked. I have very happy well adjusted kids. My teenagers are wonderful honor students, athletes &musicians they dont drink or use drugs I am not disrespected so I will continue to use my parenting style its worked here.

[Ceepa]

I know spanking is not popular on this board, but IMO you shouldn't feel like you need to defend what you do. I know parents that spank, and they are d@mn good parents. Their children are dearly loved, and they know it. They have many tools in their parenting box, and spanking just happens to be one that is hauled out when they feel it's necessary. They also do timeouts or timeout alternatives, charts with stickers and rewards, the whole thing. Whatever is suitable for the child, the situation, etc.

I agree with this.

[AnnieW625]

I have swatted/spanked my daughter on the butt before. I don't make a habit of it and nor do I plan to, but in most cases it's been when I've told her to stop doing something and she continues to do it. She likes to run down our driveway and well knows that she is suppose to stay on the sidewalk, and she'll take a few steps into the street, which she knows I don't approve of. Anytime she tries her defiant behavior she has a smirk on her face and starts laughing. IMHO it's very hard to ignore or condone that type of behavior, esp. when a safety issue is involved. Children want you think that they don't understand things like that, but they really do and that's why they test us soo much. If I tell her she'll get a time out and she does it again she gets a swat across the butt, as well as a stern lecture.

When either DH or I are in a foul mood we ask each other to go take a walk alone to cool down. DD usually gets upset too, but in the end it works out the best for all of us and we have a cool head once we return.

[brittone2]

I've told her to stop doing something and she continues to do it. She likes to run down our driveway and well knows that she is suppose to stay on the sidewalk, and she'll take a few steps into the street, which she knows I don't approve of. Anytime she tries her defiant behavior she has a smirk on her face and starts laughing. IMHO it's very hard to ignore or condone that type of behavior, esp. when a safety issue is involved. Children want you think that they don't understand things like that, but they really do and that's why they test us soo much. If I tell her she'll get a time out and she does it again she gets a swat across the butt, as well as a stern lecture.



There's a need to enforce boundaries with children, no doubt. I enforce them firmly. But I don't find I need to spank to do so.

I guess I don't see it as ignoring or condoning the behavior to *not* spank.

[AnnieW625]

There's a need to enforce boundaries with children, no doubt. I enforce them firmly. But I don't find I need to spank to do so.

I guess I don't see it as ignoring or condoning the behavior to *not* spank.

So, just cuious if you don't spank a child who runs out in the street or repeatedly disobeys you, what do you do? IMHO threatening time outs only works soo much, and sometimes I just don't what else to do? It's my instinct that I need to be their parent first, and not their best friend.

I grew up in a loving home with parents who are still married (been married 35 years) and yes I did get spanked, did I like it? Of course not, but as I got older and I disobied my parents and still got spanked for something (probably until I was 9 or 10) I knew I better not do it again. Same thing happened when I was older and got grounded, lost tv, phone or friend priveledges. I hate to say it but you can't ground a toddler or a child less than 10 because they just won't get it. If they remembering being spanked or swatted they might just remember not to do something the next time you ask them not to. Kids remember lots of things.

[sste]

I don't have as much child rearing experience as some of you. But I guess my response to the "what to do with dangerous behavior" with a toddler is that I would yell, I would show extremely angry and upset body language, and I would make sure I did it the instant the behavior occurred. I have never yelled at DS (not that I am a saint by a long shot but I really fear the loss of control and yelling is part of that for me). I plan to make yelling something that hardly ever occurs so that when it does it makes a BIG impression. Also, after the incident I would remind DS for awhile that every time we came to an intersection or near the street or by a large dog why it is important for him to do X, Y, Z.

[lizajane]

So, just cuious if you don't spank a child who runs out in the street, or whatever your child has done to disobey you, what do you do?
not directed at me... but answering anyway, to share more points of view.

i take away whatever is most important to them at the time. if my child ran into the street, i would make him go inside and he would not longer be allowed to play outside for the rest of the day.

i would remind him the next time we went outside that he cannot go into the street. i would tell him that WHY he cannot go into the street. and i would remind him that if he DID go into the street, he would immediately be taken inside again.

if i spanked him, he would still get to play outside. and hitting has nothing to do with the street. being removed from the situation makes more sense to me.

if he hit his brother, he would lose our attention. he would be sent to a different room and his brother would continue to get my attention. same thing if he hit me.

dylan has a serious "mess" issue. he covered my living room in sugar, then the kitchen in flour, then the living room in cookie decorating sugar. so i took away his access to the mess making supplies. i put a lock in the pantry. unfortunately, schuyler has a tendancy to unlock it...

so am i supposed to strike them both? even james dobson says you CANNOT spank the highly sensitive child. so that means i cannot (i wouldn't anyway) EVER hit schuyler. so do i strike dylan? if your husband hit you for eating candy, would you REALLY never eat candy again??

if spanking your kid made your kid never get into anything, there wouldn't be a million dollar industry in baby gates, cabinet locks, toilet locks, oven knob covers... making him clean it up himself and then taking away the temptation goes farther, to me.

ETA: i feel strongly about this issue, but i mean you no ill will personally. several of my closest friends spank their kids. i disagree with them. i don't think they are bad people. i don't think anything ugly about you. i just really like a meaningful discussion.

[brittone2]

So, just cuious if you don't spank a child who runs out in the street or repeatedly disobeys you, what do you do? IMHO threatening time outs only works soo much, and sometimes I just don't what else to do? It's my instinct that I need to be their parent first, and not their best friend.


I don't have runners. If I did, here would be my rule. You hold my hand. If you can't walk and hold my hand, you'll be in the sling, you'll be carried, or ride in the stroller (eta: or have on a backpack "leash" or whatnot) (whichever works best for age of child and convenience of mommy). That will be our policy every single time until you show me that you will not run. If they are running into the street, we will move the boundary of where they can go back. That might mean not being in the front yard (or wherever the street is) unsupervised, ever. I don't have a problem with that boundary. It doesn't have to be punitive. If you aren't able to understand that it isn't safe to go into the street, then you aren't able to keep yourself safe, and i"ll help you do so. In time, they mature and they get it. Until then, I'll keep them safe and enforce the boundary. If they are repeatedly doing it, I'd brainstorm ways to prevent it from happening in the first place (aka "setting them up for success" ala the GCM site). It minimizes the frustration for everyone (me included).

I am not my child's best friend because I don't spank. As I stated previously, I actually am one of the more strict parents I know. I follow through what I say with action. However, my action isn't spanking. There are boundaries here. However, I don't find it necessary to spank to enforce those boundaries.

eta: fwiw, I've worked in a daycare (in college, just part time). I've worked with children in my professional career, pre-SAHM. I've worked w/ special needs kids. In those settings (all of the above), hitting and spanking were never, ever on the table as an option. It isn't an option for me at home, either. I've been scratched, bitten, smacked, had my hair pulled, etc. in my professional life. It was never, ever an option to spank.

[lizajane]

Same thing happened when I was older and got grounded, lost tv, phone or friend priveledges. I hate to say it but you can't ground a toddler or a child less than 10 because they just won't get it. If they remembering being spanked or swatted they might just remember not to do something the next time you ask them not to. Kids remember lots of things.

i was never spanked. i was never grounded. i never lost tv or phone or friend privileges. it was more important to me that i not disappoint my parents or myself by making the wrong choices because they taught me how to make choices as a small child and as a young adult.

my husband was spanked. he remembers it. he remembers it was horrible, ineffective and humiliating. it damaged his relationship with his father for a time when he was a teen. he did anything around his mother because she would not hit him. he would behave for his dad because he would. is doing something around ONE parent and not the other really showing that he learned a lesson? or that he didn't want to get hit? he would never strike our children.

[brittone2]

I was spanked as a kid. I was grounded. I lost the use of the phone. I still got into plenty of typical teenage "trouble" I suppose (nothing earth shattering, but it certainly didn't stop me). My parents were actually far more strict in the traditional sense than most kids I knew...I wasn't allowed to be dropped off at the mall and hang out (without parents) when my friends were going in middle school for example. So I figured out ways to lie and avoid being caught. Sometimes I did get caught. I was grounded many times. My parents hit me sometimes too. I still did things that weren't acceptable to my parents after that.
(eta: like Liza's husband, I do think it damaged my relationship w/ my parents for a while. I also am not sure that had I gotten into some kind of serious trouble, I would have felt comfortable going to them, which could have put me in serious danger with respect to certain issues. While I won't condone certain behavior in teens, I certainly hope that no matter what kind of serious issue my children are confronted with, that they'll feel they can come to me without fear of "punishment" for seeking help).

I guess I don't see spanking always preventing a behavior, just as gentle discipline doesn't guarantee it won't happen either.

[fivi2]

We don't spank. I have 3 yo twins, so I have yelled more than I am proud of, but no hitting.

IMO, it is much easier to prevent bad behaviors than to try to punish them after the fact (by any method). My girls have had very limited access to parts of our (tiny) house. I used the stroller or leashes in public until they could be trusted not to run (they were runners for a time). I very rarely let them out of my sight, even at home. They are going through a stage of pouring out their water from a regular cup, so we are back to straw sippies for a while. They don't like them, but that will continue until they are ready to not pour out their water. The occasional twin on twin violence will result in a stern no and a removal from the scene (aka time out). That is mostly so I can comfort the victim without dealing with the offender.

I get the feeling from some of the posts that some want their child to blindly obey their parents (and then their teacher, a police officer, a boss, whomever). I am not trying to teach that to my child (it is fine if you are, just not my goal). I am trying to teach them to be independent adults who are able to decide what is appropriate for themselves. Yes, they have to listen to me - it is not a free for all in my house (most of the time ;) ). I tell them what to do, I expect them to listen, and I will physically "help" them sometimes. I see this as modeling the behavior I expect. I see something like spanking as trying to extinguish a behavior, but not giving a model for what is expected. For me, it is more helpful to remove whatever the temptation is (using a leash, locking up the mess supplies as pp mentioned) until the child can handle it appropriately. JMO!

[tmarie]

I also believe strongly in modeling appropriate behavior. How could I face DS if after telling him not to hit or throw if I then turned around and spanked him?

Well said. I was never spanked. I will never spank. There is a reason that every professional you ask will tell you not to hit your child. I have a high spirited child who loves to ignore me when I remind her to be gentle around the baby. :) She just wants attention. There are lots of great books on dealing with high spirited kids that give great alternative methods of discipline. They've been really helpful in helping me understand my dd and help me keep my cool without resorting to spanking. Good luck!

tmarie
dd#1 5/05
dd#2 6/08

[AnnieW625]

I don't have runners. If I did, here would be my rule. You hold my hand. If you can't walk and hold my hand, you'll be in the sling, you'll be carried, or ride in the stroller (eta: or have on a backpack "leash" or whatnot) (whichever works best for age of child and convenience of mommy). That will be our policy every single time until you show me that you will not run. If they are running into the street, we will move the boundary of where they can go back. That might mean not being in the front yard (or wherever the street is) unsupervised, ever. I don't have a problem with that boundary. It doesn't have to be punitive. If you aren't able to understand that it isn't safe to go into the street, then you aren't able to keep yourself safe, and i"ll help you do so. In time, they mature and they get it. Until then, I'll keep them safe and enforce the boundary. If they are repeatedly doing it, I'd brainstorm ways to prevent it from happening in the first place (aka "setting them up for success" ala the GCM site). It minimizes the frustration for everyone (me included).

You know 98% of the time my daughter doesn't run, it's just that other 2% that frusterates me. She is almost three and still willingly sits in her stroller, and she does respond to me when I tell her she needs to hold my hand. I think I am lucky in that sense. I do do the same things you mentioned as far as her boundaries go when we are in the front yard. If she keeps at it most time we go back in the house for the time out, but it's really those other 2% of times when it gets very frusterating and she won't listen and I feel she needs discipline. I know we could go on and on about this, but I just hope this explains myself enough.

Lizajane, I was a lot like you and never wanted to dissapoint my parents, I never did anything risky, got solid grades through college, but every once in a great while I'd lose those priveledges and it sucked and truthfully it was the motivation I needed to realize that I'd screwed up. I took it as a learning experience, and I still have a great relationship with my parents.

[dotgirl]

To the original poster - if you haven't tried 1-2-3 Magic, you might want to give it a peek - I think Amazon has it available for you to view "preview pages" to see if it might be for you? We've used it with great success for the last several years - both on our 5-year old DS and our 15-year old DD.

As for spanking - that's not an option we've chosen to go with. I won't say I think it should never be an option - but I don't think it should ever be an option when "I'm just so frustrated" is the driving reason. But that's me, and I parent in a way that works for me and my kids.

Anyway, 1-2-3 Magic works really well, and we love it - definitely worth checking out.

[m448]

spanking is a crutch plain and simple. It does not stop dangerous behaviors like running in the street. If it did you could just spank once, and then let go of your 2 year old's hand. Think she'll run? Of course she will.

I was spanked as a kid. It made me an amazing liar. I was a straight A student crafty enough to keep things away from my parents that to this day they know nothing of (and we're talking major not minor trouble).

What spanking does is distract the child from the very message you're trying to drive home. It is a imo poor attempt at bypassing true learning, true teaching and developmental maturity. Whether in the heat of the moment or methodical, spanking is using pain to teach. Humans don't learn when in pain, that 'ol fight or flight instinct bypasses any learning in that moment.

I do understand being so frustrated that you want to do ANYTHING to make that child understand your message but if parenting were a one moment thing, parents wouldn't be assigned for life. ;)

eta: I'm not just talking out of my rear end here either LOL. I had a runner and that monkey harness came in super handy as did the sling. Eventually my runner matured, the lesson stuck and now *gasp* he walks next to me without even holding my hand. Setting yourself up for success is just as important as setting your child up for success. Don't go to the county fair at 2pm with an overtired toddler and no way to contain them. That's just a recipe for disaster and frustration. Know your child's limits but more importantly know YOUR limits and not what you think a parent should be like.

[DrSally]

So, just cuious if you don't spank a child who runs out in the street or repeatedly disobeys you, what do you do? IMHO threatening time outs only works soo much, and sometimes I just don't what else to do? It's my instinct that I need to be their parent first, and not their best friend.


Here's the issue of not spanking=permissive parenting again. I don't believe this is necessarily the case. Often, other discipline strategies are used incorrectly, e.g., "threatening" time out, so they don't end up being as effective as they would be if used correctly.

[vludmilla]

I don't have runners. If I did, here would be my rule. You hold my hand. If you can't walk and hold my hand, you'll be in the sling, you'll be carried, or ride in the stroller (eta: or have on a backpack "leash" or whatnot) (whichever works best for age of child and convenience of mommy). That will be our policy every single time until you show me that you will not run. If they are running into the street, we will move the boundary of where they can go back. That might mean not being in the front yard (or wherever the street is) unsupervised, ever. I don't have a problem with that boundary. It doesn't have to be punitive. If you aren't able to understand that it isn't safe to go into the street, then you aren't able to keep yourself safe, and i"ll help you do so. In time, they mature and they get it. Until then, I'll keep them safe and enforce the boundary. If they are repeatedly doing it, I'd brainstorm ways to prevent it from happening in the first place (aka "setting them up for success" ala the GCM site). It minimizes the frustration for everyone (me included).


I agree with this. I was going to respond similarly (but not in as much detail or as well as Beth did). DD is 2.5 and isn't a runner now but she was when she was younger so at that time, she just didn't get the opportunity to run; she was held, in a stroller, holding hands...
I find myself explaining things a lot to DD even when I think there is no way she'll be able to understand everything I say. When she gets upset about a limitation, such as hand holding for safety, I get down to eye level and explain why she has to hold my hand. I tell her that if she is ready to walk safely then we don't have to hold hands/be carried. anymore. Sometimes she tells me she is ready and we try again. It has surprised me how often this approach works. I know this might not always work with all children but I think it could work for many.

[vludmilla]

I get the feeling from some of the posts that some want their child to blindly obey their parents (and then their teacher, a police officer, a boss, whomever). I am not trying to teach that to my child (it is fine if you are, just not my goal). I am trying to teach them to be independent adults who are able to decide what is appropriate for themselves. Yes, they have to listen to me - it is not a free for all in my house (most of the time ;) ). I tell them what to do, I expect them to listen, and I will physically "help" them sometimes. I see this as modeling the behavior I expect. I see something like spanking as trying to extinguish a behavior, but not giving a model for what is expected. For me, it is more helpful to remove whatever the temptation is (using a leash, locking up the mess supplies as pp mentioned) until the child can handle it appropriately. JMO!

I think these are great points. I think it is especially important to give a child the model or replacement behavior instead of just trying to extinguish a "bad" behavior. This is basic behavioral management; you need to give/teach/model a replacement behavior for whatever behavior you are trying to eliminate. Spanking/hitting doesn't do that, it just attempts to extinguish behavior by a method of questionable effectiveness. The research on punishment (of any kind, not just the physical kind) indicates that it is not an effective behavioral management tool. As for my child, I like to assume that she doesn't need punishment for "bad" behavior. I like to view her behavior that I don't like as something developmentally appropriate; it keeps me from getting angry about it and reminds me that I need to teach her what I want her to do.

[bubbaray]

I don't spank, but I would for something like a child who tried to run out into rush hour traffic or tried to pull a pot of boiling water off the stove.

I would also be lying if I said there weren't times (OK, many times) when I really WANTED to smack my kids.

[Corie]

I know a lot of people equate spanking with hitting. When I was growing up, we had both hitting and spanking in our family. Even as a young child, I knew the difference. I still hold a grudge about the hitting, but the spankings - well, I remember the reasons for those and honestly I was warned.


Yes, I agree. I was never "hit" growing up but I was spanked. I hold
absolutely no hard feelings to either parent for spanking me or my siblings.

I have on occasion spanked my own children. I do not "hit" them.

[JTsMom]

So many great answers so far!

My DS has sensory issues and a language delay. Additionally, he is extremely spirited. He almost seems to be on fast forward, 24/7. He's not so much a runner, but he gets so overly excited, wants to touch things, wants to dance around and spin in circles- you get the picture. On a few occasions, he has actually run off, but mostly it's just a slow, moving too far away type of thing.

My solution is:
1. Talk about the expected behavior before we go into the store.
2. Remind him once if his behavior slips.
3. If it happens a second time, he goes into the cart or stroller. If he refuses, and has a total melt down, we leave. He never wants to leave a store, so I think that has happened a grand total of once.
4. If this type of thing happens several times in a row, he rides in the cart every single time for a while.
5. Additionally, I try to avoid shopping at a time when he's tired/hungry etc- setting us up for success whenever possible.

Even though behaving the way I expect him to is very difficult for him, this approach is working well for us. He knows I am serious, and that the same consequences will happen every. single. time.

When things go well (which is more and more common now that we've been doing this for a while), we talk about all of the things he did right. When things don't go well, we talk about what went wrong, and how to do better next time.

Twice, he has run into dangerous situations- once, into a street, once too close to stairs. Both times I screamed, and I mean SCREAMED for him to stop. I think because that tone is so rare for me, it immediately clues him in to the severity of the situation, and freezing is almost an involuntary reaction. We talked a lot about safety after both occasions (more the street time b/c he was older). He can tell you, in a 3 year old's words, why we don't run into the street, and I think he really gets it.

[JTsMom]

See, to me (and most dictionaries), hit=to strike, and spank means the same. It's just semantics. Spank is a euphemism imo. I get what others are saying, but spanking does equal hitting, by pure definition.

[C99]

I do not believe in spanking as a discipline tool. I certainly don't believe in spanking as a punishment -- I am not sure I believe in punishment. However, I have spanked DS1 and DD. It's definitely out of anger/at my wit's end and I always feel bad about it and apologize afterward. Most of my friends/IRL social circle has admitted to similar situations with their own kids. I was spanked as a child (both in anger and as a discipline tool/punishment), and I know my parents felt bad about it as well -- my dad actually apologized to me about it when I was in my young 20s. I do (or did) hold a grudge against my parents for those incidents and do not want to be or think of myself as a "spanker."

I also totally get all the folks who are saying that parenting IS about being the boss. Yes, I want my children to grow up to be independent thinkers and not automotons who blindly follow whatever an authority figure tells them. But do they need to be independent thinkers at 4 or 5? No. I'm not sure they have the ability to decipher the nuances of appropriate behavior at this age (I'm pretty sure from DS1's repeated telling of fart jokes to me that he does NOT). There can be so many exceptions to the rule that the rule falls in on itself. I admire DS1's ability to come up with better arguments for why he should have candy before breakfast, but there comes a point when I need to say, "let's move onto something else. My mind's not changing on this." I'm not sure a 6-y/o should be allowed 20 minutes' debate time on the issue.

[infomama]

I would never hit my DC if they ran towards traffic. I'm sorry if people are offended but IMHO spanking IS hitting. I instinctually raise my voice prior to removing them from a potentially dangerous situation (who doesn't) but I follow that intense moment up with getting down to their eye level and explaining the danger/consequences of their actions/my expectations. Then I tell them I love them and I HUG them.

[egoldber]

I don't have runners.

I do have a runner. Amy is generally what many people would call "willful". In a parking lot, she holds my hand, rides in a stroller or I carry her. MANY times she is screaming and shrieking and kicking when I pick her up. But she's 2. I don't expect her to have impulse control at this age. But she IS getting better.

I don't understand spanking for running into traffic. They are small children. While *some* toddlers may have the impulse control not to run away in traffic, in general it is not a developmentally appropriate expectation. Even if you spank them today a child younger than 3 or 4 does not have the ability to control that impulse tomorrow. That's why I have physical control of Amy at all times.

[boolady]

I don't understand spanking for running into traffic. They are small children. While *some* toddlers may have the impulse control not to run away in traffic, in general it is not a developmentally appropriate expectation. Even if you spank them today a child younger than 3 or 4 does not have the ability to control that impulse tomorrow. That's why I have physical control of Amy at all times.

I don't understand this, either. DD is not a fan of being in the stroller, so if she's being well-behaved in the mall, for example, she can walk alongside me either (1) holding my hand; or (2) holding onto the side of the stroller. She stops doing those things or walks or runs away from me (which does happen), she gets in the stroller. No questions asked, she can scream her head off about it, that's it. She will do the same thing on the sidewalk, and sometimes head towards the street. She doesn't truly understand the danger, so I don't see why spanking would make her see it.

DD has terrible impulse control with things she really likes to do. For example, every night after washing her hands and brushing her teeth before bed, she loves to splash water from the sink very, very vigorously (I mean so that it gets on the mirror and three of the four bathroom walls). We are working very hard to stop it, but she just can't stop her impulse to do it. I am doing my best to stay calm, but I have made it clear that it is not acceptable behavior.

I see these things as poor impulse control, not disobedience. She's not even 2 1/2 years old. We are already talking a lot about making the right decisions, and when she does, like last night, when for the first time there was no splashing in the bathroom sink, she was so proud that she told me she "made a good decision." Life is going to present her with choices every day. I just want to do my best to teach her how to make intelligent, safe, kind decisions, and I can't see what physical punishment has to do with that.

[Fairy]

I have not read all the other responses. We do not spank or physically spank or strike our child. Ever. I don't believe in this form of punishment. However, the concept that has me worried is the "smack across the head." I implore you not to do that. While I don't believe in spanking in any form, I concede that a some parents see a spank on the rear end as effective, and while I disagree, it's their child not mine, and I give them the right to their opinion and their approach. However, a smack across the head is abusive to me. Whether it's a slap across the face or striking your palm against the back of their head ala "snap out of it!" comedy or any other version thereof, that is going to send a terrible message. I'd ask that you consider not spanking, and I beg that you not hit your child on the head.

I did get as far as Liza's post, and I agree that in some cases, just give them the attention they're asking for when they act out. Additionally, if the timeouts and loss of privileges aren't working, you can try positive reinforcement with sticker charts and other things.

Hope you find a resolution.

[fivi2]

snip...
I also totally get all the folks who are saying that parenting IS about being the boss. Yes, I want my children to grow up to be independent thinkers and not automotons who blindly follow whatever an authority figure tells them. But do they need to be independent thinkers at 4 or 5? No. I'm not sure they have the ability to decipher the nuances of appropriate behavior at this age (I'm pretty sure from DS1's repeated telling of fart jokes to me that he does NOT). There can be so many exceptions to the rule that the rule falls in on itself. I admire DS1's ability to come up with better arguments for why he should have candy before breakfast, but there comes a point when I need to say, "let's move onto something else. My mind's not changing on this." I'm not sure a 6-y/o should be allowed 20 minutes' debate time on the issue.

I agree that a parent needs to be in charge in the early years. I just feel that I can be the boss without hitting my child. I also feel that it is more helpful for my child's development to model appropriate behaviors (physically if necessary) and to remove temptation, than it is to try and break their will by spanking them. I also think that the beginnings of independent thought can be expressed and respected as early as 4 or 5 (or earlier). In age-appropriate ways. Again, not hitting my child does not mean I allow 20 minutes debate on candy. They are offered healthy choices. If they choose not to eat them they don't eat. period. no debate, no need to hit.

If your child is a runner, a mess-maker, a dare-devil (mine have been all those things), there are ways to contain those behaviors in unsafe places, while allowing them outlet in safe manners. You aren't going to change your child's personality by spanking it out of them. They will just learn that you don't like who they are and hide it from you.

I guess I don't see how one is teaching their child to be an independent thinker by expecting blind obedience in the early years (and hitting to achieve that). and then at some point saying their child is now old enough to be independent, without giving the child any foundation for that. And some did say they expect their child to display the same obedience to teachers, police officers, etc (unless I misunderstood).

Of course this is all JMO! We all have different goals when raising our children.

[brittone2]

I think maybe I caused confusion in my post saying I think that adults often treat their child in ways that would be unacceptable as a way to treat a spouse. I stand by that, but I didn't mean to imply I don't have an authoritative relationship w/ my children. Yes, my relationship with my children is different from my relationship with my spouse. But at the same time there is a level of respectful treatment that I think children deserve. For me, spanking doesn't align with that in my own family. There certainly are rules. I definitely won't debate for 20 mins with my 5 year old over candy ;)

I also agree about impulse control. My DS was a child that was able to have impulse control and a great degree of safety awareness at a very young age. My DD is less aware of safety and has less impulse control-she wasn't a runner per se, but I definitely have to be on my toes ;) (although now at 2 it is getting much better, thankfully). Kids develop that impulse control at different ages. I personally don't think spanking for safety issues is going to change much, but obviously everyone does what they think is best for their own family. I don't think you can force impulse control and the forethought that comes w/ maturity that allows children to see what *could* happen if they did XYZ. That's part of brain development.

When my kids are in an unsafe situation, I usually end up more upset at myself for not watching closely enough, not setting up the environment to be safe, etc. I consider that my job. And no, you can't prevent everything from happening, especially w/ a child much more prone to being a runner for example. But I still think above all it is my job to keep them safe. I have the maturity and forethought to get it, while in many cases, they don't (yet).