Sad case - Munchausen's-by-Proxy

[trumansmom]

I don't know if she was a member here, but she was on quite a few message boards as Irangel, as well as writing the blog, "Two Preemies and a Big Sister."

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-7230-Atlanta-Special-Needs-Kids-Examiner~y2009m6d3-Mother-does-the-unthinkable-posions-daughters-feeding-tube-with-feces-and-sends-shockwaves-across

I just thought I'd post it in case anyone was following her blog. It's just incredibly sad.

ETA: I just changed the link to something completely different. I have no idea why the first one I tried didn't work. <shrug>

[calv]

the link doesn't work

[jse107]

Can't get the link to work!

[shoxie]

trumansmom, is this the story?

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2009/06/03/mother_charged_with_feeding_3y.html

Hopefully, this link works. How absolutely atrocious.

[trumansmom]

trumansmom, is this the story?

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2009/06/03/mother_charged_with_feeding_3y.html

Hopefully, this link works. How absolutely atrocious.

Yes. That's the one I was trying to link. Thanks.

[BabyMine]

Is this it?
http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2009/06/03/mother_charged_with_feeding_3y.html

[AngelaS]

She's on MDC.

[LexyLou]

That's horrible. Makes me sick to my stomach. Her poor children,

[kep]

Did you see this expert from her post on Monday, April 27th...

I have been working on this now for almost an hour. Nothing significant has changed except she's had some diarrhea with suspected blood in it that the nurse and I just got to dig through... *barf* Oh and her feeds were stopped because of her belly being a bit bloated and the aforementioned suspected bloody stool.

Um, yeah. How do you think your child feels every time you inject fecal matter into her feeding tube?!? :crying: :mad:

[Melaine]

I'm not going to read it, but I hope that the children are safe now.:crying:

[elephantmeg]

I've seen a probable case on peds and there is a probable one in the ICU at the hospital where I work-too... so sad!

[Melaine]

Why does this happen, WHY? Is it just considered a mental illness?

[egoldber]

Holy cow!!!!! I've followed her story for a long time on MDC. :(

There was another case at MDC where someone with a long blog and story about their preemie....the whole thing turned out to be fake. (She was using pix of someone else's baby in her blog.) That was bad enough, but this is soooo much worse.

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

This is absolutely heartbreaking, there are just no words.

[DrSally]

Wow, I'm just sickened. That poor child :(

[KBecks]

Where's the disgust-meter when I need it? Sick.

[Clarity]

Sick. Poor baby. My little girl is nearly 3, I can't imagine her being so sick as to need the hospital, let alone being the one that put her there.

[StantonHyde]

I think this is definitely a mental illness. BUT it doesn't get you off the hook!!

[shawnandangel]

Oh my goodness. That's terrible. I will be praying for her family.

[kijip]

I think this is definitely a mental illness. BUT it doesn't get you off the hook!!

Exactly. I hope the kids are all safe now.

[pinkmomagain]

That's horrible, poor child. And so creepy that she was posting on MDC. I wonder if those postings would be helpful to investigators, the child's doctors or the psychiatrists working with the mom?

[JTsMom]

So sad. :(

[DietCokeLover]

When I was working as a therapist, I treated a family where the mother had munchausen's syndrome by proxy. It was incredibly difficult to work with and sickening to me.

I'm so thankful that the hospital staff was alert and were able to rescue that child from their mother. I hope that sweet baby gets all the medical treatment he/she needs and will be ok.

[wellyes]

Boards like this and MDC help so many mamas, but I can imagine how they'd just feed a mental illness like this one. NOT blaming the boards at all, I'm so glad this kind of support exists. Just a sad situation all around. I'm so glad her disease is rare, and I am happy that her secret has been discovered and documented so that her poor child can be safe now.

[carolinamama]

That is just so sad. Poor child and family having to endure all this.

[Snow mom]

That is so sad. What is MDC?

[egoldber]

MDC = discussion boards at mothering.com

The other mom I mentioned was also on the NICU/preemie parenting subforum there. This mom hung out there and also on the Special Needs Kids forum there. I think those particular subforums, where people are often looking for support for dealing with very sick kids, may have a dynamic that attracts this personality type. :(

[ha98ed14]

MDC = discussion boards at mothering.com

The other mom I mentioned was also on the NICU/preemie parenting subforum there. This mom hung out there and also on the Special Needs Kids forum there. I think those particular subforums, where people are often looking for support for dealing with very sick kids, may have a dynamic that attracts this personality type. :(

How did the other story get uncovered? Where she was using photos of someone else's DC? Did the real parent post it to MDC?

Just reading this makes me realize how sane I am. DD has some delays/ issues and I worry ALL THE TIME that they are symptoms of something bigger, and I feel kinda crazy for thinking "Is there something wrong with my child?" BUT I could never ever ever make my baby sick. OMG, I would leave her with DH and run away if I ever felt tempted to hurt her. *HOW* can someone do this? Does this syndrome effect one's ability to metacongnate (to think about what they are thinking about, in this case to think about thinking about hurting your own DC)?

[mommylamb]

I know this is a mental illness, but it's hard to see it that way and have sympathy for someone who would do that to their child. Thank goodness the hospital staff were intuned to what was going on and set up the camera.

[ha98ed14]

I know this is a mental illness, but it's hard to see it that way and have sympathy for someone who would do that to their child. Thank goodness the hospital staff were intuned to what was going on and set up the camera.

Is it a psychosis? Do they lose touch with reality? Or is it like Kleptomania (sp?) where they may know it is wrong, but they just can't help themselves?

[egoldber]

How did the other story get uncovered? Where she was using photos of someone else's DC? Did the real parent post it to MDC?

I believe someone eventually recognized the baby in the photos on her blog as the child of someone they knew.

It's hard to tell these things on MDC, because these types of threads are instantly shut down. It's a VERY heavily moderated board, so these types of discussions are simply not permitted. If you don't happen to catch the explanation thread before it gets closed down and removed, you're in the dark.

I noticed a thread yesterday with just the title "irangel" but didn't read it. And now of course there is nothing to be found there about her or what happened.

[ha98ed14]

I noticed a thread yesterday with just the title "irangel" but didn't read it. And now of course there is nothing to be found there about her or what happened.

REALLY? So she is wiped from the board, like she never existed or posted there? Wow!

So, what do you think about people who found her advice helpful or her words comforting? Is that real anymore? I mean, hearing, "It's so hard. You're not alone." from someone who is making themselves go through this seems kind of twisted. I would feel like *I* was whacked out for not seeing it. I have posted in MDC Special Needs about DD's delays (I use a different name), so it's possible she replied to me, but I doubt it. My DD isn't physcially ill, she's SLD & SPD.

[infomama]

I'm not going to read it, but I hope that the children are safe now.:crying:
:yeahthat:

[elephantmeg]

Why does this happen, WHY? Is it just considered a mental illness?

it is-usually an attention getting or sustaining measure-people get support when their loved ones are ill and not otherwise

[Laurel]

REALLY? So she is wiped from the board, like she never existed or posted there? Wow!

So, what do you think about people who found her advice helpful or her words comforting? Is that real anymore? I mean, hearing, "It's so hard. You're not alone." from someone who is making themselves go through this seems kind of twisted. I would feel like *I* was whacked out for not seeing it. I have posted in MDC Special Needs about DD's delays (I use a different name), so it's possible she replied to me, but I doubt it. My DD isn't physcially ill, she's SLD & SPD.

You can find her old posts by searching, but nothing about what is happening now.

[egoldber]

Right, they don't delete all their posts, just any thread that is specifically about the issue or that asks what happened. Although I noticed they deleted her most recent VERY lengthy thread about her daughter's current hospitalization.

[mommylamb]

I'm not sure if it's technically a psychosis. I do know that regular munchausen's is much more common than by proxy (regular is when they do things to themselves to get attention, not to someone else).

I meant to quote the question from ha98ed14.

[Laurel]

Currently, Munchausen's-by-Proxy is not a formal DSM IV mental health diagnosis.

http://www.mbpexpert.com/definition.html

[elektra]

Horrible....

[JElaineB]

Right, they don't delete all their posts, just any thread that is specifically about the issue or that asks what happened. Although I noticed they deleted her most recent VERY lengthy thread about her daughter's current hospitalization.

MDC has also locked all threads that she has started.

[DietCokeLover]

Is it a psychosis? Do they lose touch with reality? Or is it like Kleptomania (sp?) where they may know it is wrong, but they just can't help themselves?

It's a disorder that is "created" by the person - not a psychosis - just kind of "living in another world". They have a deep desire for attention, and they find attention through their child. It most usually shows up with regard to medical treatments for the child brought on by the parent either continually making up or actually causing a sickness in the child. Alot of times they are known at many different doctors/ hospitals because they have a sick need to keep their child sick so they get the attention or accolades for being such a wonderfully concerned parent.

[Sillygirl]

It's a disorder that is "created" by the person - not a psychosis - just kind of "living in another world". They have a deep desire for attention, and they find attention through their child. It most usually shows up with regard to medical treatments for the child brought on by the parent either continually making up or actually causing a sickness in the child. Alot of times they are known at many different doctors/ hospitals because they have a sick need to keep their child sick so they get the attention or accolades for being such a wonderfully concerned parent.

Munchausen's is more common than Munchausen's by proxy. Usually the person is making themselves sick to get attention, including eating poo, self injecting, etc. Other disorders cause self harm, the difference in Munchausen's is that the attention they get in playing the "sick role" is the motivating factor. MBP is rarer but because of the inflammatory nature of the cases, it gets more attention.

[maydaymommy]

They have a deep desire for attention, and they find attention through their child. It most usually shows up with regard to medical treatments for the child brought on by the parent either continually making up or actually causing a sickness in the child. Alot of times they are known at many different doctors/ hospitals because they have a sick need to keep their child sick so they get the attention or accolades for being such a wonderfully concerned parent.

I've been thinking about this since I read the article --
Do you think that the internet has the ability to feed/cause this disorder? I'm just thinking of all the support that so many people offer virtual strangers when they read their tales of woe in discussion forums or on blogs. It just seems like a discussion board would be a perfect "forum" for someone seeking attention.

I'm not explaining this well, and I'm certainly not blaming message boards or blogs -- I'm just saying. . . . we're lucky not to read about horrible "fake" situations more often.

[Snow mom]

I've been thinking about this since I read the article --
Do you think that the internet has the ability to feed/cause this disorder? I'm just thinking of all the support that so many people offer virtual strangers when they read their tales of woe in discussion forums or on blogs. It just seems like a discussion board would be a perfect "forum" for someone seeking attention.

I'm not explaining this well, and I'm certainly not blaming message boards or blogs -- I'm just saying. . . . we're lucky not to read about horrible "fake" situations more often.

I don't think people posting fake stories about their kids being sick and getting pity online really is that bad in the large scheme. No one is physically hurt by that. Whoever the person was that Beth referred to as having a fake premie didn't actually hurt anyone. So if getting attention online substitutes for the attention you would get by hurting your child I think that isn't terrible. If getting attention online becomes like a drug where you need more attention and actually start hurting someone, that is horrible. From the Q&A link I can imagine how this mom may have gotten addicted to the attention she got when her daughter was ill, and that attention became more important to her than her daughter's well being. It's terrible to even imagine.

[torontomom]

I don't think people posting fake stories about their kids being sick and getting pity online really is that bad in the large scheme. No one is physically hurt by that.

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with you on this. Parents whose children are sick and who are reaching out for support or have given support to the impostor get hurt.

I know this because I was a victim of a person posting a fake story on a parent grief support board I used to visit. I was seeking support after my 4 year old DD passed away from a brain tumour. Another "mother" posted about her supposed 5 year old DD's death due to a brain tumour several months after I joined the board. I felt like I had finally found someone that understood my pain and I posted replies to her messages on the board and on her blog. Until then, I hadn't really posted much. A month or so later we found out she was a fake. She had used someone else's pictures on her blog. She never had a daughter. You can't even imagine how disgusted, sad and violated I felt.

So yes, the woman that was caught is mentally ill and so, likely is the woman who I had the misfortune of encountering online. But that is NO excuse for what they've done. I can no longer post on the grief board because I no longer trust anyone or anything I read online. And I rarely post here unless it is something I just can't ignore.

[american_mama]

Well, just to cast a pall over all of us posting on message boards, how would you feel if as a normal, sane, supportive person you posted one - or several - sympathetic posts to this person, perhaps sharing some personal details of your own struggles with a sick family member? Perhaps even sharing some bit of online friendship with her? And now perhaps those threads are being printed out and combed through in a police station or attorney's office, with all of your truthful, supportive, personal responses dragged into it as well? Ugh. That is where the fallacy of this supportive message board world is revealed, and you realize you're not posting to the group of 10 or 50 people you think, but rather the whole wide world of lurkers and strangers and weirdos and criminals.

[cdlamis]

Toronto Mom-
I am so sorry for your loss! And for the added grief that that woman caused you.

[strollerqueen]

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with you on this. Parents whose children are sick and who are reaching out for support or have given support to the impostor get hurt.

I know this because I was a victim of a person posting a fake story on a parent grief support board I used to visit. I was seeking support after my 4 year old DD passed away from a brain tumour. Another "mother" posted about her supposed 5 year old DD's death due to a brain tumour several months after I joined the board. I felt like I had finally found someone that understood my pain and I posted replies to her messages on the board and on her blog. Until then, I hadn't really posted much. A month or so later we found out she was a fake. She had used someone else's pictures on her blog. She never had a daughter. You can't even imagine how disgusted, sad and violated I felt.

So yes, the woman that was caught is mentally ill and so, likely is the woman who I had the misfortune of encountering online. But that is NO excuse for what they've done. I can no longer post on the grief board because I no longer trust anyone or anything I read online. And I rarely post here unless it is something I just can't ignore.

I'm so sorry. What a terrible betrayal of trust, at a time when you are most vulnerable. I wish you peace and healing.

[Snow mom]

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with you on this. Parents whose children are sick and who are reaching out for support or have given support to the impostor get hurt.

I know this because I was a victim of a person posting a fake story on a parent grief support board I used to visit. I was seeking support after my 4 year old DD passed away from a brain tumour. Another "mother" posted about her supposed 5 year old DD's death due to a brain tumour several months after I joined the board. I felt like I had finally found someone that understood my pain and I posted replies to her messages on the board and on her blog. Until then, I hadn't really posted much. A month or so later we found out she was a fake. She had used someone else's pictures on her blog. She never had a daughter. You can't even imagine how disgusted, sad and violated I felt.


I am very sorry for your loss. You are right, there obviously is some harm done by people lying on the internet. You were harmed and I sorry for that. I'm sorry if my comment made you feel that I was trivializing how you were hurt by a made up story. I can see how these particular types of support boards are filled with vulnerable people, much like the little girl in this story was vulnerable. It's sad that people would exploit that. I wasn't thinking about it enough from your perspective and I apologize.

I do think it is a reminder of the problems with message boards. There is nothing that stops people from making up entire stories if that is how they get their kicks. On boards like this where you don't have to be a member there always more lurkers than members reading, so while we may feel like it is a little community, we are really sharing with anyone who cares to read.

[calv]

haven't read the whole thing or all the posts but I saw an epi on HOUSE (my latest addiction/show) on this.

[JMS]

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with you on this. Parents whose children are sick and who are reaching out for support or have given support to the impostor get hurt.

I know this because I was a victim of a person posting a fake story on a parent grief support board I used to visit. I was seeking support after my 4 year old DD passed away from a brain tumour. Another "mother" posted about her supposed 5 year old DD's death due to a brain tumour several months after I joined the board. I felt like I had finally found someone that understood my pain and I posted replies to her messages on the board and on her blog. Until then, I hadn't really posted much. A month or so later we found out she was a fake. She had used someone else's pictures on her blog. She never had a daughter. You can't even imagine how disgusted, sad and violated I felt.

So yes, the woman that was caught is mentally ill and so, likely is the woman who I had the misfortune of encountering online. But that is NO excuse for what they've done. I can no longer post on the grief board because I no longer trust anyone or anything I read online. And I rarely post here unless it is something I just can't ignore.

I'm very sorry for your loss. Someone adding pain on top of what you are already experiencing is inexcusable.

[egoldber]

On boards like this where you don't have to be a member there always more lurkers than members reading, so while we may feel like it is a little community, we are really sharing with anyone who cares to read.

On ANY public message board, there are always more lurkers than active posters. I read somewhere it's like 90% lurkers vs 10% active?

[mommylamb]

On ANY public message board, there are always more lurkers than active posters. I read somewhere it's like 90% lurkers vs 10% active?

Scary. I know I probably get too comfortable with what I say on these boards.

[Ceepa]

I know many of us have wished that people had to register to even read these boards, maybe reducing the number of lurkers of questionable intent, but I doubt that will happen as long as the selling of the books and the free market research that comes from these boards is the basis for these forums. JMHO.

I'll probably get zinged for saying this.

[egoldber]

I'll just point out that that the people who took advantage of others on these boards were active posters who were "valuable members" of the community, not lurkers.

Many, many people are lurkers before they become active posters. Some people are just more than happy to read the conversations and learn what they can from that, especially on a board that has a strong personality dynamic, which I think this one does. I am on several boards that I mainly lurk on. I don't feel like I am a valuable contributor, but I learn a lot.

The Fields started this board to promote their book. Many people only lurk here for baby gear advice. Shocking I know. :ROTFLMAO:

[Ceepa]

I'll just point out that that the people who took advantage of others on these boards were active posters who were "valuable members" of the community, not lurkers.

Many, many people are lurkers before they become active posters. Some people are just more than happy to read the conversations and learn what they can from that, especially on a board that has a strong personality dynamic, which I think this one does. I am on several boards that I mainly lurk on. I don't feel like I am a valuable contributor, but I learn a lot.

The Fields started this board to promote their book. Many people only lurk here for baby gear advice. Shocking I know. :ROTFLMAO:

I'm fine with lurkers who are researching, but registering to read a board does seem to reduce the number of trolls, etc. Though it doesn't elminate them, of course, it seems to discourage some.

[egoldber]

Again, I will just say that these were not trolls. These were people who had been active posters, with many many many posts, who had been board members for a long time. For someone actively seeking to perpetrate a fraud, I don't know that there is really any way to stop that.

And irangel was not a "fraud" (although I think she did accept donations) in the sense that these children are really hers and they were really sick.

[mommylamb]

The Fields started this board to promote their book. Many people only lurk here for baby gear advice. Shocking I know. :ROTFLMAO:

You mean they don't hang out hear because they're enthralled with my political opinions??:)

[BaileyBea]

She's from the local Austin Area and when this story came out I really got sick to my stomach. I can't believe a Mother would do this to her child. Dell Children's has been working on this with police officers for several days. They knew she had several online communities that she posted on and a local news station downloaded tons information, videos, pictures, comments, etc. Without a doubt that all information downloaded will be building as evidence against her in court. I believe some of these communities were working collaboratively with authorities due to the nature of some of the clips they showed on a local station.

It's very sad.

Nancy

[strollerqueen]

OK, ugh, I started reading her blogs. I can't believe how sick her DD was. Has anyone said how long she has been poisoning her? I mean, was the little girl just sick before, and then recently her mom started inducing sepsis? (Maybe the litte girl had gotten better, and the mom preferred her sick?) And also, is there any way to induce labor early so that you will have preemies?

[egoldber]

I have also wondered if she induced herself in some way to create micropreemies. :( But many micropreemies are indeed that sick and continue to have health issues, so it is hard to say how much of that was created by her and how much she merely "helped along". Those poor children.

[Ceepa]

Again, I will just say that these were not trolls. These were people who had been active posters, with many many many posts, who had been board members for a long time. For someone actively seeking to perpetrate a fraud, I don't know that there is really any way to stop that.

And irangel was not a "fraud" (although I think she did accept donations) in the sense that these children are really hers and they were really sick.

Beth, I was out and just read this. I realize you're talking about the cases mentioned in this post. I was just talking about the BBB board and how it would be nice to have readers register here. So to summarize, you: staying on point regarding the thread topic, me: going on a tangent and confusing everyone. Sorry. :)

[pinkmomagain]

I have also wondered if she induced herself in some way to create micropreemies. :( But many micropreemies are indeed that sick and continue to have health issues, so it is hard to say how much of that was created by her and how much she merely "helped along". Those poor children.

Hmmm, I can easily imagine her having micropreemies...getting alot of attention for it, and then when they were doing OK, creating health issues to maintain that level of attention that then became almost addictive. Very sick and sad.

[Snow mom]

On ANY public message board, there are always more lurkers than active posters. I read somewhere it's like 90% lurkers vs 10% active?

You can see how many people are online at the bottom of the main page. As I type this: 161 members and 901 guests. I guess some of those guests could be members that aren't signed in. My computer automatically signs me in (so you can always tell when I'm nursing the baby ;)). I def understand that having membership required doesn't stop people from telling stories. My main point is that like anything online, you really can't know who is reading, posting, or what their intention is. I learn a lot from this board, both about gear and parenting, but i always remember that I am responsible for filtering both what I post and what advice I take in.

I'm glad to hear that the case is getting some attention in the local media. I was shocked that I hadn't seen any coverage of something like this that basically took place in my own backyard but now I realize it's because we haven't turned on the TV since DD became so aware of her surroundings. Dell is a really nice hospital and I'm glad the little girl was brought there where someone can help her.

[justlearning]

Hmmm, I can easily imagine her having micropreemies...getting alot of attention for it, and then when they were doing OK, creating health issues to maintain that level of attention that then became almost addictive. Very sick and sad.

I agree. I hadn't heard about this woman's story previously and I haven't read this whole thread, but it seems like this theory makes the most sense to me (well, nothing makes sense with this unthinkable horror but you know what I mean). As a mom of a child with cancer, I do know firsthand how you get attention when you have a sick child and how your identity can become wrapped up with everything related to your child's sickness and treatment. (That is, helping your sick child becomes your full-time job). But it's nearly impossible to believe that anyone would want their child to continue being sick--every day I've done everything possible to get my son healthy as quickly as possible.

This story is so, so sad and I pray for her children.

[C99]

REALLY? So she is wiped from the board, like she never existed or posted there? Wow!

No - you can search on her username in the preemie/SNP forums, but all of the threads in which she participated are locked.

[AngelaS]

What a seriously sad case! Because I have nothing better to do at 5 am on a Saturday, I just read a bunch of her posts.

Her poor little girl has had one thing after another! I've only read since March and she's been hospitalized more than once, had a PICC line (which went septic in a week!) and a portacath. The poor 'sick' child is only THREE and she's been through a lot. My heart aches for her. :(