Ethical question: do you condone or disapprove?

[codex57]

http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/em01h/how_i_got_an_uncooperative_ebay_buyer_to_pay_for/

Interested to hear what ladies think of this. Guys seem to overwhelmingly think this was perfectly fine.

[mamicka]

I can't get anything to load.

[smiles33]

Interesting. My first instinct is to say that it's wrong, but when I think about it, I don't blame him. eBay wouldn't have forced her to pay and he would have been out the entire value of the tickets given the short time frame. She bid and she should pay. Yes, he created a false incentive for her to complete the deal but she made that deal willingly and on her own volition. Regret is not a reasonable excuse. You win some and you lose some on eBay.

[codex57]

I can't get anything to load.

Summary from consumerist.com:

A guy over on Reddit had tickets to a big sporting event but at the last minute couldn't go, so he sold them on eBay for $600. The event was in less than 24 hours and when he contacted the winning bidder after they didn't pay for a while, the woman told him that her husband had said that it was too much money and wouldn't let her go. Never mind that winning an eBay bid is a binding contract and now the guy has little chance of selling the tickets. So he concocted a fiendish scheme to trick her into paying.
What he did is email her from a different email address and say hey, I saw you won those tickets, I'd really like to go, can I buy them from you for $1,000? She agreed, and lo and behold, she contacts him as the original seller and says "oops, changed my mind, I want to pay for those after all." He brings her the tickets, collects the money, and then goes home and has his sockpuppet bidder back out of the deal with her.

[elektra]

What are the rules on eBay if you win a bid exactly? I didn't think you could just back out if you won the auction.

[codex57]

From an eBay standpoint, there was a valid contract and she isn't allowed to back out.

Legally, he could have sued and won.

Legally, she could prolly turn around and sue his fake identity (and thus him), but it woulda been a lot harder to find the fake identity. Not impossible, but possibly not worth the money involved.

Criminally, he may be guilty of a crime, but that's debatable. It's close enough that a DA prolly wouldn't file charges, altho some might.

[JoyNChrist]

I think it's pretty darn funny.

She bought them, she should pay. If she's dumb enough to fall for it, that's just too bad for her.

[gatorsmom]

Summary from consumerist.com:

A guy over on Reddit had tickets to a big sporting event but at the last minute couldn't go, so he sold them on eBay for $600. The event was in less than 24 hours and when he contacted the winning bidder after they didn't pay for a while, the woman told him that her husband had said that it was too much money and wouldn't let her go. Never mind that winning an eBay bid is a binding contract and now the guy has little chance of selling the tickets. So he concocted a fiendish scheme to trick her into paying.
What he did is email her from a different email address and say hey, I saw you won those tickets, I'd really like to go, can I buy them from you for $1,000? She agreed, and lo and behold, she contacts him as the original seller and says "oops, changed my mind, I want to pay for those after all." He brings her the tickets, collects the money, and then goes home and has his sockpuppet bidder back out of the deal with her.

This IS interesting. The fairness-loving party of me smirks and says, "she deserved that." But, codex, I keep thinking of what you said in another recent thread that two wrongs don't make a right. :D On the other hand, karma is a bitch.

Honestly, I am torn and cant really say either way.

[wellyes]

She cheated him.
He conned her.
Pretty much even stevens in the end.

I can't put myself in her shoes at all so I can't really sympathize with her.

[codex57]

This IS interesting. The fairness-loving party of me smirks and says, "she deserved that." But, codex, I keep thinking of what you said in another recent thread that two wrongs don't make a right. :D On the other hand, karma is a bitch.

Honestly, I am torn and cant really say either way.

See, I'm trying to figure out where karma would end. Is what he did wrong? He didn't really cheat her if you look at it from a whole (which is how I assume karma works). So, what he did to her is just karma affecting her. How karma affects him, since he didn't gain anything out of it and was just protecting himself, might be something super small if anything at all. Maybe it working out is his positive karma balancing things out for getting cheated? I dunno.

[mamicka]

Well, they both did something unethical.

I don't think he should have done what he did but she was obligated to pay in the first place. Ideally he would have gotten his money without trickery.

[anamika]

I really think if the lady wanted to make things right she could have told the seller that there was another buyer and maybe they could split the extra $400 between them - or something like that. I feel like she was given a chance to make things right but she chose not to and still tried to trick this guy for her own benefit.
She was greedy and got what she deserved.

I would never ever have the guts to pull this off. But seriously, what are the chances that he would ever see the cold, hard cash? Sure, he can file with Ebay etc but would they be able to get him his money?

[TwinFoxes]

I'm torn too. But she was in the wrong AND dumb, since eBay warns people not to get involved in side deals, so I'll lean toward him. Plus she sounded kind of bitchy, not apologetic at all.

I wouldn't sell tix on eBay I'd either use stubhub, where the seller is protected, or even CL where you could do first who comes with the cash.

[gatorsmom]

See, I'm trying to figure out where karma would end. Is what he did wrong?
..... Maybe it working out is his positive karma balancing things out for getting cheated? I dunno.

Yep, after I stepped away from the keyboard before, I thought the same thing. Where does it end? Positive karma was getting him back his money from the first ebay deal. Negative karma to her for trying to back out on the deal. But, then if she sued him and won (for knowingly tricking her in that second ebay deal) would that be negative karma on him for him tricking her to get his original money back? Yep, where does it end indeed.

[codex57]

Well, until she actually sues and wins, you can't really say bad karma is coming his way. If you speculate, you just go around and around in circles. I can only go with what's actually happened. Which still leaves a lot of questions, but you can at least more positively try and ID some karma. So far, I'm guessing his positive karma was him getting his money in the end? And it's stopped here for now?

[ilfaith]

I really think if the lady wanted to make things right she could have told the seller that there was another buyer and maybe they could split the extra $400 between them - or something like that. I feel like she was given a chance to make things right but she chose not to and still tried to trick this guy for her own benefit.
She was greedy and got what she deserved.


I think the fact that the woman only offered to pay for the tickets when she thought she would make a huge profit by selling them makes me feel a little better about her falling victim to the original seller's con. Obviously, the right thing for her to do would have been to have put the seller in touch with the potential buyer (or have the buyer contact the seller...not knowing they were one and the same). The fact that she got greedy makes me think she got what she deserved.

[khalloc]

I think it's AWESOME! But I probably wouldn't have added his last line which was to repeat what she had told him "it's EBAY not a car dealership"...I would have been afraid of retaliation, but yeah, she deserved what happened to her. It was pretty clever I think.

[mamicka]

Well, I don't believe in karma, so that clouds my opinion.

DH sells lots of tickets on ebay & elsewhere & he says that according to ebay rules, she can back-out of the deal. She would get a mark on her account as a non-paying buyer or something, but she can't be forced to pay unless the seller can prove that she actually received & used the tickets.

So while I think they were both unethical, he's more likely to have negative fallout if she pursues it. Although I have no idea what ebay's rules are regarding fake id's being used to con someone, I can't imagine it's allowed.

[codex57]

Well, I don't believe in karma, so that clouds my opinion.

DH sells lots of tickets on ebay & elsewhere & he says that according to ebay rules, she can back-out of the deal. She would get a mark on her account as a non-paying buyer or something, but she can't be forced to pay unless the seller can prove that she actually received & used the tickets.

So while I think they were both unethical, he's more likely to have negative fallout if she pursues it. Although I have no idea what ebay's rules are regarding fake id's being used to con someone, I can't imagine it's allowed.

Fake id is under proxy bidding. Fake id gets suspended for sure. If they can link to the original account, that original account may be suspended. Not always though.

The circumstances of this case are weird though. It's a completed sale under eBay's eyes. The stuff that happened on the side and after the sale is none of their business really. That's why they're pretty clear about not doing side deals.

[gatorsmom]

Well, I don't believe in karma, so that clouds my opinion.



Just curious how not believing in karma clouds your opinion of this issue? :shrug:

[mommylamb]

I'm torn too. But she was in the wrong AND dumb, since eBay warns people not to get involved in side deals, so I'll lean toward him. Plus she sounded kind of bitchy, not apologetic at all.


:yeahthat: In the end, he got his $600 and she got her tickets in time to go to the game if she so chose. I don't condone what he did, but I don't blame him either.

[mamicka]

It seems to me that codex is looking for answers regarding karma in this situation. I don't believe in it. I don't believe that "getting what you deserve" makes something more or less wrong.

[codex57]

Only if you believe in karma.

I'm more interested in if you think what he did was right. Or not right, but you don't blame him. Whatever you may feel. My curiosity is how much praise or condemnation (or a mixture) you have towards the guy b/c it's nearly all ladies here. Guys are pretty strongly in the "he did nothing wrong" or "he might be a little wrong, but I don't blame him" category. Mostly, it's just "Go guy! Wish I thought of that." kinda reaction. Not too much, "he shouldn't have done it, but I don't blame him".

[mamicka]

Only if you believe in karma.

I'm more interested in if you think what he did was right. Or not right, but you don't blame him. Whatever you may feel. My curiosity is how much praise or condemnation (or a mixture) you have towards the guy b/c it's nearly all ladies here. Guys are pretty strongly in the "he did nothing wrong" or "he might be a little wrong, but I don't blame him" category. Mostly, it's just "Go guy! Wish I thought of that." kinda reaction. Not too much, "he shouldn't have done it, but I don't blame him".

OK. He was wrong. I understand why he did it but it was wrong. DH agrees.

ETA: Oh, & it was pretty clever.

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

I think that man is very clever.

[mommylamb]

DH is solidly with the guys one this one.

[hellokitty]

Hmm, what a interesting story. I would say he's evil clever, but I don't blame him for doing what he did, b/c she totally screwed him, so I could kind of see how he might rationalize what he did as being ok, even though both of them were shady. And yes, karma's a bitch.

[codex57]

And thank you all for responding. And asking your DH/BF if available (but not necessary).

I just wanted to explain my motivation for asking girls what they think. The reason I'm on this site (well, the Lounge area) is to get a better idea of how women think. Early in our relationship, DW and I had some issues with the whole Mars vs Venus thing. At that time, I really only had one close female friend I could ask to kinda translate. So, coming to sites like this is invaluable to gain an insight into how women think, which then helps my relationship at home. I'm happy to provide a male point of view for the same reason.

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

And thank you all for responding. And asking your DH/BF if available (but not necessary).

I just wanted to explain my motivation for asking girls what they think. The reason I'm on this site (well, the Lounge area) is to get a better idea of how women think. Early in our relationship, DW and I had some issues with the whole Mars vs Venus thing. At that time, I really only had one close female friend I could ask to kinda translate. So, coming to sites like this is invaluable to gain an insight into how women think, which then helps my relationship at home. I'm happy to provide a male point of view for the same reason.

Apparently I need to get myself on a man-board.

[JoyNChrist]

Apparently I need to get myself on a man-board.

:ROTFLMAO: :yeahthat:

[WolfpackMom]

Hmm, what a interesting story. I would say he's evil clever, but I don't blame him for doing what he did, b/c she totally screwed him, so I could kind of see how he might rationalize what he did as being ok, even though both of them were shady. And yes, karma's a bitch.

:yeahthat:

Also, point me toward that "manboard" :rotflmao:

[ShanaMama]

I think it's pretty darn funny.

She bought them, she should pay. If she's dumb enough to fall for it, that's just too bad for her.

She cheated him.
He conned her.
Pretty much even stevens in the end.

I can't put myself in her shoes at all so I can't really sympathize with her.
:yeahthat: to both.

[codex57]

Mine are car related ones. The one that was actively discussing this one was e46fanatics.com

By now, the demographic has really skewed young cuz the e46 model BMW 3 series is pretty old so they're fairly easily affordable as used cars. The maturity level, while never that high when I was really active on there, has decreased a good bit. Still, if you wanna see what guys talk about when away from women, just go lurk there. The ages might not match up perfectly with this board, but the income/education level might (or they will in a couple years).

It's actually pretty fascinating. I think some girls find there way there, but stick around cuz it boosts their self esteem once the guys find out they're a girl and start drooling all over them. Guys find it really hot when girls are into stuff that's normally considered "guy" topics like cars, sports, etc.

Oh, and the ultimate "father" figure is a guy called Klangford. If you sign up, search for his stories. He doesn't post anymore but he was an older member who had a kid and would tell kid stories, kinda like we do on here. I can't wait until DS joins the Scouts so I can do what Klangford did for his son. I dunno if a lot of you ladies would approve, but the other guys thought he was a GREAT father.

[Corie]

I think what he did is pretty funny!

[Beckylove]

I think the extra $20 he got at the end made what he did wrong.

If he just tricked her into following the contract $600 they agreed upon, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

But since he got that extra $20 through trickery, then I think he conned her.

But I sort of admire it because he was wicked clever and she was such a horrid person.

[Sillygirl]

I think if you lie down with the dogs, you're gonna get fleas. That woman showed her true colors when she tried to make the extra money on the resale the sockpuppet offered her. She got what she deserved and more power to the guy for setting her up. Schemes like that only work when the mark is greedy - which she was.

But I think everyone here has figured I'm kind of butch, anyway. Watch out, codex, I might skew your sample. ;)

[elektra]

But I think everyone here has figured I'm kind of butch, anyway. Watch out, codex, I might skew your sample. ;)

I've always thought your username was a bit... ironic. ;)

[LMPC]

I think what he did, while totally understandable (and wickedly clever) was, nonetheless, unethical. His goal was to deceive her into paying for the tickets...making his behavior unethical. FWIW, she sounds like a total BEyotch..and if I were him, I would be scared to death that she was going to come and get me!

[codex57]

But I think everyone here has figured I'm kind of butch, anyway. Watch out, codex, I might skew your sample. ;)

If you're female, your opinion is just as good as any other. I'm not looking for a particular result, I just wanna see what the opinions are. If they happen to match most guys', great. If they happen to match most girls, great. Just be honest. :)

[lovebebes]

I condone because the guy was going to be out of money and not be able to regain it since there was no more time to sell the tickets.

[ehf]

She gave him the rules, and he played by them.

Tough for her.

[amldaley]

Ok, from a Karma stand point, I think she is in a bigger deficit than he is, but I don't think he gets off scott free in the long run.

Her actions caused the results which affected her. And her actions sucked and caused a reaction that sucked.

His were deceptive but somehow "justified" and so, in turn, in theory, something equal will happen to him...when next he tries to bail, back out or otherwise fail to follow through, perhaps someone else will use such deception against him, too. B/C let's face it...the kind of person who is able to both conceive and carry out such a plot likely has that kind of nature.

Now, on to what peaks my interest more...I call BS on this whole story, unless it was years ago.

You can no longer see the full name of the winning bidder (or any competing bidders) on Ebay and have not been able to for at least over a year. Only the Seller can see the names. So, the fake person would not have been able to see her name to contact her (had he been real...I get that as the Seller he could see the name). Or maybe she really was that stupid.

Also, he created a fake account on Ebay...however, again, Ebay does not allow users to contact each other if they have not been in a recent transaction together. So, there would have been no way for "fake user" to get her contact info. (Again, maybe she was too ignorant to know this).

Now, Seller has added an edit to his story solicting donations in his fathers name. If he is really avoiding this woman and admitting to the deception he used to get her to pay, why would he post his fathers name in a public forum?

This story is funny, but it just doesn't sit with me as being on the up and up.

[codex57]

Ok, from a Karma stand point, I think she is in a bigger deficit than he is, but I don't think he gets off scott free in the long run.

Her actions caused the results which affected her. And her actions sucked and caused a reaction that sucked.

His were deceptive but somehow "justified" and so, in turn, in theory, something equal will happen to him...when next he tries to bail, back out or otherwise fail to follow through, perhaps someone else will use such deception against him, too. B/C let's face it...the kind of person who is able to both conceive and carry out such a plot likely has that kind of nature.

Now, on to what peaks my interest more...I call BS on this whole story, unless it was years ago.

You can no longer see the full name of the winning bidder (or any competing bidders) on Ebay and have not been able to for at least over a year. Only the Seller can see the names. So, the fake person would not have been able to see her name to contact her (had he been real...I get that as the Seller he could see the name). Or maybe she really was that stupid.

Also, he created a fake account on Ebay...however, again, Ebay does not allow users to contact each other if they have not been in a recent transaction together. So, there would have been no way for "fake user" to get her contact info. (Again, maybe she was too ignorant to know this).

Now, Seller has added an edit to his story solicting donations in his fathers name. If he is really avoiding this woman and admitting to the deception he used to get her to pay, why would he post his fathers name in a public forum?

This story is funny, but it just doesn't sit with me as being on the up and up.

You answered your own questions. His last comment to her told her who he was. I really don't think he's worried about her being able to track him down. Not when she claims she called the fire department on him. All talk, no brains.

[TwinFoxes]

This story is funny, but it just doesn't sit with me as being on the up and up.

I do have to say I thought it sounded a little like an urban legend, but who knows?

(I didn't know you could no longer see the name of the winning bidder, I don't use eBay that much, and usually only buy it now.)

[amldaley]

You answered your own questions. His last comment to her told her who he was. I really don't think he's worried about her being able to track him down. Not when she claims she called the fire department on him. All talk, no brains.

Yeah, I guess what I meant about his identity is that, on Ebay, she would only know his ID and possibly his email address. She would not have any real, personally identifying information about him.

I agree with your point that, based on the fact that he revealed himself in his "Na na, boo boo, I got you" inspired response, he might not be worried about it.

[justlearning]

Yeah, I guess what I meant about his identity is that, on Ebay, she would only know his ID and possibly his email address. She would not have any real, personally identifying information about him. .

Is this true? Whenever someone makes a purchase from me on ebay, my return address and name, I believe, always show up when I ship the item. So if someone wanted to know who he is, couldn't they just purchase something from him? Or do most ebay sellers not include their return address when they ship the item?

[amldaley]

Is this true? Whenever someone makes a purchase from me on ebay, my return address and name, I believe, always show up when I ship the item. So if someone wanted to know who he is, couldn't they just purchase something from him? Or do most ebay sellers not include their return address when they ship the item?

But he wasn't shipping the item and she did not pay with PayPal.

[Fairy]

The guy did the wrong thing.

But I really like it.

[denna]

It was a binding sale he couldve gotten his money thru eBay or paypal. Two wrongs do not make a right. I agree that what she did was wrong and in the end karma came around but ethically I do not agree.

[codex57]

It was a binding sale he couldve gotten his money thru eBay or paypal. Two wrongs do not make a right. I agree that what she did was wrong and in the end karma came around but ethically I do not agree.

No he couldn't. EBay would just mark her as a nonpaying bidder. He'd be out $600. Paypal has nothing to do with this. Dunno if that changes your opinion or not, but he was screwed out of $600 if he went through the proper channels.

[KrisM]

But he wasn't shipping the item and she did not pay with PayPal.

In a transaction, you can request contact information. The reverse is returned to the other party. I know it contains the phone number, but not sure what else. It's been a while since I've done that.

[justlearning]

But he wasn't shipping the item and she did not pay with PayPal.

I realize that. I was thinking, though, that if she wanted to know who he was, she could have her friend purchase something inexpensive from him using paypal and have the item shipped to him/her. Then she has his contact info, right?

[codex57]

I realize that. I was thinking, though, that if she wanted to know who he was, she could have her friend purchase something inexpensive from him using paypal and have the item shipped to him/her. Then she has his contact info, right?

Only if he has something else currently up for sale on eBay.

I haven't done it in a while, but the alternative might be to deposit $1 into his PayPal account and see if there's a contact info for you to check and confirm that you want to send this person money. I don't think she's tech savvy enough to come up with an effective way to retaliate though.

[Fairy]

It was a binding sale ...

No, it wasn't.

[Pyrodjm]

I think this is a funny story and doubt that it's true but if it is, I have no problem with the seller's actions.

If the buyer had been an honest person, she could have responded to the offer to buy the tix by saying that she ended up not getting them and to contact the original seller about purchasing them. Her greed is what got her in the end.

As far as I can see she bid and promised to pay, tried to get out of it,got greedy and i the end got screwed. But all she did is paid is what she had originally promised which is exactly what she should have done to begin with.

[kijip]

This is a variation of a classic con. While i am quite sure that variations of this have happened, I think this one has not happened and if it were a true story, it could not have been recent and happened as described. He would not need a fake eBay account to email her since he already had her email addy and he can't email her from the non involved party anyways. It just does not read true.

Further, if tickets are hot enough to generate a $600 bid the day before the event, why not just sell them to a ticket broker? Too many things could go wrong with a 1 day eBay thingy, especially for such a high value.

Neither, i assume made up, party has the moral high ground here.

[citymama]

:yeahthat: In the end, he got his $600 and she got her tickets in time to go to the game if she so chose. I don't condone what he did, but I don't blame him either.

Yep.

Do we know if this really happened or is this going to show up on snopes?

[amldaley]

Yep.

Do we know if this really happened or is this going to show up on snopes?

I tried to look around online last night for this as a hoax. It seems it is a new story being circulated just in the last two weeks or so. It shows up on several sites but none identifying it as a hoax (yet).