Wash Post: 3 Year Old Suspended for Too Many Accidents

[mommylamb]

I'm not sure if anyone has already posted this here, but this article was on the front page of the Post this morning. I'm pretty horrified about the way the school handled this, especially the teacher announcing in front of the class how many times the little girl had an accident. Thought, I have to say, I'm surprised to see this article on the front page (not the metro section).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/29/AR2011012903854.html?hpid=moreheadlines

[Melaine]

Interesting. Announcing it in front of the class is horrible and it doesn't sound like it was handled well. However, I tend to agree with the principle:

"The application for these preschool programs states very clearly that children must be toilet-trained, that we can't accept kids in Pull-Ups," she said. "We understand kids have accidents, but we're not staffed like a day-care or child-care center and can't address a child that needs help being potty-trained." Erdos said county practice is to remove a child who has eight accidents in a month. "Once it gets to that point," she said, "it disrupts the class and the parents need to keep the child home so they can intensify the training process."

There are too many daycares masquerading as preschools, IMO. If I sent my kids to preschool, I would want to know there were some standards to keep academics in focus. If there is a classfull of children struggling to potty-train that would take away from the focus on "academics". I do not think a teacher should have to be dealing with constant accidents. A day care provider should be completely prepared for them, however.

Take this with a grain of salt, however, as I don't really think that academics should be the focus at that age. I don't really believe in preschool necessarily.

[ha98ed14]

The way they handled it was horrifying, and the mom should not have had to pay the tuition when the school was the one who terminated/ suspended the girl's attendance, BUT all that said, I completely agree with the school district for enforcing their potty policy. It's a public school; that's not a place for toilet training. Just for cleanliness sake, the child needs to be able to get the majority of pee and poop in the toilet. I will add though that this year alone, DH has had 2 fourth graders vomit in the classroom and another wet her pants. It happens, but 8 x in a month is nearly twice a week. That would be too much for me too.

[buddyleebaby]

It sounds like the Pre-K where the number of accidents was announced was different than the pre-K that "suspended" her.

This mother made the choice to enroll her daughter in a school that clearly stated children must be fully potty trained to attend, and then complained when her life was disrupted because the school would not make an exception. It was not a fair thing for her to ask.

Of course every child potty trains at their own pace. (My daughter was 3.5) It sounds like this little girl was potty learning and thrust into a situation she was not quite ready for by an over-eager mother. It would have been in her best interest for her mom to look for a program willing to accept children who were still potty learning instead of forcing the issue, and then blaming school policies she was well aware of at the time of enrollment.

ETA: Also, it regards to the first pre-K announcing in front of the class how many accidents the little girl had had (which horrified me before I read the article)...the article said

"At pickup time, Zoe's teacher announced in front of everyone how many accidents the child had that day, Rosso said."

What I suspect happened is that when Zoe's mom/dad/baby-sitter came to pick her up, the teacher would tell them if she had had an accident (or two or three). I really can not imagine a teacher yelling to the class "Zoe is being picked up now. She had two accidents today!"

[turtledove]

It sounds like the Pre-K where the number of accidents was announced was different than the pre-K that "suspended" her.

This mother made the choice to enroll her daughter in a school that clearly stated children must be fully potty trained to attend, and then complained when her life was disrupted because the school would not make an exception. It was not a fair thing for her to ask.

Of course every child potty trains at their own pace. (My daughter was 3.5) It sounds like this little girl was potty learning and thrust into a situation she was not quite ready for by an over-eager mother. It would have been in her best interest for her mom to look for a program willing to accept children who were still potty learning instead of forcing the issue, and then blaming school policies she was well aware of at the time of enrollment.

:yeahthat: The policy is very clearly stated, and the mom has no place expecting to be an exception. Eight accidents a month is a lot! There are many preschools to choose from in that area and the mom should have found one more developmentally appropriate - one that is able to assist in the potty training process. The child is not bad, or behind, just going at her own pace. However, when this kind of thing happens at a place not equipped to deal with it, it becomes a distraction to the whole class.

My DD's preschool requires all children to be completely potty trained and able to take care of themselves in the bathroom (ie wiping, pulling up and down pants). Teachers aren't allowed to assist at all in the stalls. They allow for 3 accidents (period, not in one month) before having the option to remove the child. They are not staffed or trained to help with potty training. I appreciate that they don't wipe or help kids in the potty. The fewer people my DD has seeing/touching her privates, the better IMO (not sure if that came out sounding ok, I know it isn't "touching" her privates, but I hope everyone knows what I mean). The school is VERY clear on this expectation- it is addressed at the open house and is in the handbook given to all parents. My DD is only there for 3 hours, and I want her to get the most out of her time there. There is a specific time for potty break, and a child is always taken to the bathroom if they express a need.

I feel like I sound pretty harsh, but I think the mom has to take responsibility and not try and blame the system. I'm glad they found a school that works for them.

[JustMe]

I agree that the school has a right to have the policy. I most certainly agree that the teacher in the previous school who announced how many accidents the child had in the previous school was way off and this was not okay.

However, as a parent I would not be comfortable sending even a potty-trained child to a school that had such a policy. In fact, my dd trained herself completely by age 2 and I still would have never considered a preschool that had a must-be-potty-trained polkcy for her. My reasoning is that I feel that potty training is very individualized, and that it is developmentally approrpriate for some children to not be completely potty trained/still have accidents at the preschool age. It was very importtant to me that the preschools dcs go to schools that are aware of what is developmentally appropriate for preschoolers. while I recognize that there needs to be a certain ratio to accommodate this, I woiuld not send my dcs to a school that did not have a ratio that allowed teachers to respond to children in a way that is appropriate to their developmental level.

[JBaxter]

She knew when she signed her up she needed to be potty trained 8 accidents or more in a month is a lot and I can see how stopping to change her can be disruptive taking away the helper or the teacher to clean her up and changer her. I know of several parents who sent their kids partially potty trained to preschool only to have to pull them for a month because of multiple accidents per week. I dont agree that any teacher should announce it to the class but handing a parent a bag of peed clothes at pick up time would be the same thing. I dont consider a child potty trained who has multiple accidents per day in a week.

[Jacksmommy2b]

I dont agree that any teacher should announce it to the class but handing a parent a bag of peed clothes at pick up time would be the same thing. I dont consider a child potty trained who has multiple accidents per day in a week.

I totally agree. 8 accidents a month is not potty trained to me. Obviously this kid wasn't ready to be in a program with those restrictions and it sounds like the mother pushed her in for the sake of childcare. She states herself that this is the second school she left due to accidents.

[dogmom]

I'm sorry, I'm hung up on this quote:

"We understand kids have accidents, but we're not staffed like a day-care or child-care center and can't address a child that needs help being potty-trained."

So are they staffed LESS than a day-care center? Probably not, since there is usually minimal staffing by law. Sounds like she was cleaning up after herself. Some kids have accidents in K, and the public schools can't kick them out and they have different numbers. If they want to run the school that way, they can. But I sure they heck wouldn't send my kid there. It sounds like they have something shoved up one of their orifices and believe somehow dealing with a kid that has accidents will somehow take away from the glorious information they must be bestowing on all their other precious charges. They are fracking 3 years old!!!

[JBaxter]

Here there are staffing differences in Daycare VS Preschool. Daycare I think is 6 to 1 and Preschool is 10-1 Taking a preschool teacher or helper away multiple times a day to change a child does cause disruption. An occasionally is one thing but having one child w/ 8 or more accidents does cause disruption on top of regular disruption.

[KrisM]

I know licensing here prevents non-trained kids going to non-daycare preschools. The preschool my kids attend says they need to be potty trained. DS1 never had an accident. DD had a couple last year. They have a change of clothes and dealt with it fine. But, if it were 8/month, I could see being asked not to return until the accidents stopped. The preschool will take them in Pullups, but if they need to be changed for a poop, the parent is called to do it. And, if it happens all the time, they're asked not to attend until they can poop in the toilet or at home.

I think the way this was handled was not very good.

[squimp]

I can't help but wonder if the stress of having her accidents tracked contributed to the number of accidents. My DD didn't have accidents at home, but she did at school, because it was a different environment and sometimes too much was going on to think about getting to the potty in time. I know schools must have this policy due to health and licensing concerns, but it sounds like a stressful environment. I knew many schools that had this requirement but I never heard of anyone getting kicked out. 8 accidents per month doesn't sound like that many.

[mommylamb]

I can't help but wonder if the stress of having her accidents tracked contributed to the number of accidents. My DD didn't have accidents at home, but she did at school, because it was a different environment and sometimes too much was going on to think about getting to the potty in time. I know schools must have this policy due to health and licensing concerns, but it sounds like a stressful environment. I knew many schools that had this requirement but I never heard of anyone getting kicked out. 8 accidents per month doesn't sound like that many.

:yeahthat: I think there's an awful lot of blame to go around in this situation. If I were the child's mother, I wouldn't want my kid in a school like this. But, my reading of this article is that there is a lack of communication between teachers/administration and parents. And I think that the way the school responded probably contributed to the problems this little girl is having.

I also think it's unrealistic to expect all kids to be PT at 3 without accidents. DS is finally PT at 3.5, and it was a long process. I would have hated to have him in an environment where he was called out for having accidents. His daycare wouldn't let him wear underpants until he was PT, but had no problem with having him in pull ups. And yes, it's technically a daycare, but I think that the line between daycare and preschool is so blurred these days that it hardly exists at all. His daycare has a lot of structure and provides and incredible academic environment.

Mostly though, I was just struck that this was a front page story on the Washington Post. Seriously, potty training next to chaos in Egypt??? Seems strange to me.

[KrisM]

:yeahthat: I think there's an awful lot of blame to go around in this situation. If I were the child's mother, I wouldn't want my kid in a school like this. But, my reading of this article is that there is a lack of communication between teachers/administration and parents. And I think that the way the school responded probably contributed to the problems this little girl is having.

I also think it's unrealistic to expect all kids to be PT at 3 without accidents. DS is finally PT at 3.5, and it was a long process. I would have hated to have him in an environment where he was called out for having accidents. His daycare wouldn't let him wear underpants until he was PT, but had no problem with having him in pull ups. And yes, it's technically a daycare, but I think that the line between daycare and preschool is so blurred these days that it hardly exists at all. His daycare has a lot of structure and provides and incredible academic environment.

Mostly though, I was just struck that this was a front page story on the Washington Post. Seriously, potty training next to chaos in Egypt??? Seems strange to me.

I don't know the schools in the article at all, so my perspective is my own. But, here daycares are open from early morning until dinner time or so. Our preschol goes 9-11:30 and 12-3, depending on the class. All the kids come at the same time and leave at the same time on the same days. When I looked a preschools as part of a daycare, the start/end times and days varied by kid and the parent's need.

At the very end of the article where it mentions no accidents in the new school makes me think that how they were handled is a big part of the problem.

[mommylamb]

I don't know the schools in the article at all, so my perspective is my own. But, here daycares are open from early morning until dinner time or so. Our preschol goes 9-11:30 and 12-3, depending on the class. All the kids come at the same time and leave at the same time on the same days. When I looked a preschools as part of a daycare, the start/end times and days varied by kid and the parent's need.

At the very end of the article where it mentions no accidents in the new school makes me think that how they were handled is a big part of the problem.

Around here, most pre-schools (with the exception of church-based preschools) have a before and after school period, with the "pre-school" portion during the day. While we love our daycare, we've been considering moving DS next year because our daycare has gotten a lot of babies recently and we want him to be with more kids his own age, so we've been looking into a couple of different options. One of them runs from 7:30 am--6:00 pm, with instruction from 9-2. The other is 7:00 am-- 6:15 pm, with instruction also 9-2. There are just a lot of WOHMs in this area because it's high COL, so it doesn't really pay to have a more limited pre-school.

[ellies mom]

I'm really torn on this. My oldest wasn't potty trained until she was almost four but luckily the program we had her in (the program on campus) was certified as a day care also so they could do diaper changes. I'm not the type to push a child who isn't ready

The thing is 8 accidents a month doesn't sound like much but if it is a 2 day program the child is only there about 8 times a month (12x for a 3 day program). That is an accident almost every day, not an occasional accident. For a program that requires a child to be potty trained, that is not anywhere near being trained.

[maestramommy]

Interesting. Announcing it in front of the class is horrible and it doesn't sound like it was handled well. However, I tend to agree with the principle:

"The application for these preschool programs states very clearly that children must be toilet-trained, that we can't accept kids in Pull-Ups," she said. "We understand kids have accidents, but we're not staffed like a day-care or child-care center and can't address a child that needs help being potty-trained." Erdos said county practice is to remove a child who has eight accidents in a month. "Once it gets to that point," she said, "it disrupts the class and the parents need to keep the child home so they can intensify the training process."

There are too many daycares masquerading as preschools, IMO. If I sent my kids to preschool, I would want to know there were some standards to keep academics in focus. If there is a classfull of children struggling to potty-train that would take away from the focus on "academics". I do not think a teacher should have to be dealing with constant accidents. A day care provider should be completely prepared for them, however.



:yeahthat: Dora went to a preschool last year that said all 3yo had to be PT'd. They could wear a pullup until the end of Sept and that was it. A the parent teaching night before the first day of school the teacher reiterated this point. Nobody wants to be cruel, but licensing is the issue here. Her previous preschool didn't required PT BUT if your kid had a poop they would call you to come and change your kid, again because of licensing.

Our current preschool, run by the district is the only one that places no restrictions on PTing because they have special needs students, some who will obviously not be PT'd for a long time, so they have the licensing to deal with it.

[shawnandangel]

However, as a parent I would not be comfortable sending even a potty-trained child to a school that had such a policy. In fact, my dd trained herself completely by age 2 and I still would have never considered a preschool that had a must-be-potty-trained polkcy for her. My reasoning is that I feel that potty training is very individualized, and that it is developmentally approrpriate for some children to not be completely potty trained/still have accidents at the preschool age. It was very importtant to me that the preschools dcs go to schools that are aware of what is developmentally appropriate for preschoolers. while I recognize that there needs to be a certain ratio to accommodate this, I woiuld not send my dcs to a school that did not have a ratio that allowed teachers to respond to children in a way that is appropriate to their developmental level.

:yeahthat:This is very well stated and I completely agree with you.

[JBaxter]

Here even in the Montessori program a child MUST be potty trained without pull ups to move from the pre-primary ( 2-3 mix) to the primary class. There is a number of accidents allowed ( cant remember the # now) the child is either placed in the pre primary class if there is room or are taken out till they are potty trained. The parents are expected to pay the monthly tuition to hold the spot during that period. The pre primary is lic'd for the daycare but the primary class is lic'd for preschool.

[cmo]

A friend of mine is a preschool teacher in NoVa, and the teachers there are prohibited from helping a child use the toilet in any way. To do so would put the preschool's license at risk. She can't even go in the stall to help pull up pants or tights. If a child has an accident, he/she has to change into clean clothes his/herself, or the child's parent must be called to assist. The teachers are also not permitted to go 'out of ratio', which means that if there are 16 kids in the class with 2 teachers, neither teacher can be left alone with more than half at any time. So, if one kid has to go down the hall to the bathroom, the teacher has to take 7 other kids along with her. Fortunately there are floater teachers who are able to cover most needs, but if they are busy, you either have to wait or take half the class with you.

In short, there are a lot of regulations that parents may or may not know about that would explain a school's position on any given matter that might otherwise seem odd.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I agree that the school has a right to have the policy. I most certainly agree that the teacher in the previous school who announced how many accidents the child had in the previous school was way off and this was not okay.

However, as a parent I would not be comfortable sending even a potty-trained child to a school that had such a policy. In fact, my dd trained herself completely by age 2 and I still would have never considered a preschool that had a must-be-potty-trained polkcy for her. My reasoning is that I feel that potty training is very individualized, and that it is developmentally approrpriate for some children to not be completely potty trained/still have accidents at the preschool age. It was very importtant to me that the preschools dcs go to schools that are aware of what is developmentally appropriate for preschoolers. while I recognize that there needs to be a certain ratio to accommodate this, I woiuld not send my dcs to a school that did not have a ratio that allowed teachers to respond to children in a way that is appropriate to their developmental level.

I agree with this too. We only looked at preschools with no potty policy. I guess my state differs from some of the others on here b/c theses preschools are not daycares at all and they don't require pt'ing. I was at ds2's preschool the other day and an older 3 had an accident, It was taken care of quickly and easily. I'm glad that they are allowed to go at their own rate (even though I have been getting some pressure from the staff to move things along).

Beth

[KrisM]

Around here, most pre-schools (with the exception of church-based preschools) have a before and after school period, with the "pre-school" portion during the day. While we love our daycare, we've been considering moving DS next year because our daycare has gotten a lot of babies recently and we want him to be with more kids his own age, so we've been looking into a couple of different options. One of them runs from 7:30 am--6:00 pm, with instruction from 9-2. The other is 7:00 am-- 6:15 pm, with instruction also 9-2. There are just a lot of WOHMs in this area because it's high COL, so it doesn't really pay to have a more limited pre-school.

Very different then. No preschool here has before/after care. What you described would be daycare with a preschool in it. We have those, too. But, ones that are just preschool are only school. And, you have to be 3 by Dec 1 to go (corresponds to kindy cut-off).

[Ceepa]

A friend of mine is a preschool teacher in NoVa, and the teachers there are prohibited from helping a child use the toilet in any way. To do so would put the preschool's license at risk. She can't even go in the stall to help pull up pants or tights. If a child has an accident, he/she has to change into clean clothes his/herself, or the child's parent must be called to assist. The teachers are also not permitted to go 'out of ratio', which means that if there are 16 kids in the class with 2 teachers, neither teacher can be left alone with more than half at any time. So, if one kid has to go down the hall to the bathroom, the teacher has to take 7 other kids along with her. Fortunately there are floater teachers who are able to cover most needs, but if they are busy, you either have to wait or take half the class with you.

In short, there are a lot of regulations that parents may or may not know about that would explain a school's position on any given matter that might otherwise seem odd.

:yeahthat: Often it is the way the license works for the facility. Every teacher I know will, of course, help a child who needs help with an accident, but it is against policy to do so regularly and non-potty trained children are discouraged from attending. That's why the subject is part of the application process.

[dogmom]

This thread has been nagging at me all day and I think I finally figured out why. The whole thing centers around whether this girl is "potty trained". Well, she is, she makes it to the BR most of time clearly. 8 accidents a month is only 2 a week, assuming she goes 5 days a week, that's still getting to the BR most of the time. Clearly, it has not been 8 every month, she made it this far. It also doesn't say what kind of accidents. Urine just doesn't even rise to a health issue in may book. (News flash, urine is sterile.) Stooling is a different issue, and may indicate another problem. I understand the staffing issue, which is why facilities with this age range should have BR in the room. There will always be accidents. So if a kid has to pee, do they have to walk down the BR with the other kids?

I guess my issue is we would be appalled if it was something else, like a kid with a learning disability or something. Some kids just don't have a mature enough bladder. And the whole idea of day care vs. preschool and someone one is "better" academically than another. It all depends on the philosophy of the school/center and the teachers. I've seen people rave about the how great their preschool is and turn their noses up at daycare, and it's pretty clear from talking with them that the school is pushing the kids into developmentally inappropriate activity too early.

I just can't shake the issue because it is something we deem as "dirty" in our society that somehow it's OK to be so harsh on it.

[citymama]

That's appalling. Some Montessori schools take strictness to absurd levels - I've heard of another in the Bay Area with similarly draconian policies on accidents. So sad for the little girl - but she's better off without that school.

[mommylamb]

I guess my issue is we would be appalled if it was something else, like a kid with a learning disability or something. Some kids just don't have a mature enough bladder. And the whole idea of day care vs. preschool and someone one is "better" academically than another. It all depends on the philosophy of the school/center and the teachers. I've seen people rave about the how great their preschool is and turn their noses up at daycare, and it's pretty clear from talking with them that the school is pushing the kids into developmentally inappropriate activity too early.

I just can't shake the issue because it is something we deem as "dirty" in our society that somehow it's OK to be so harsh on it.

You're not the only one who feels this way. I think I would feel differently if the article actually said that they couldn't help children with going to the bathroom/change them for licensing reasons required by the state, as some people here have surmised, but it doesn't say that.

And I also agree that a lot of people poo poo daycare. The fact is, there is a wide variety of quality in both pre-schools and daycares. It's not as simple as thinking that pre-schools are academic and daycares are just babysitting. That's just not the case. Honestly, while we are probably going to move DS to a pre-school environment next year, it's not because I think he's missing out on academics at his wonderful, amazing daycare. In fact, I think he'll be hard pressed to get better. It's just that there are fewer kids his age than there used to be and for a social perspective, I'd rather have him with kids closer to his age. But, his daycare offers a real lot from an academic perspective, and DS has reaped huge benefits.

[KrisM]

This thread has been nagging at me all day and I think I finally figured out why. The whole thing centers around whether this girl is "potty trained". Well, she is, she makes it to the BR most of time clearly. 8 accidents a month is only 2 a week, assuming she goes 5 days a week, that's still getting to the BR most of the time. Clearly, it has not been 8 every month, she made it this far. It also doesn't say what kind of accidents. Urine just doesn't even rise to a health issue in may book. (News flash, urine is sterile.) Stooling is a different issue, and may indicate another problem. I understand the staffing issue, which is why facilities with this age range should have BR in the room. There will always be accidents. So if a kid has to pee, do they have to walk down the BR with the other kids?

I guess my issue is we would be appalled if it was something else, like a kid with a learning disability or something. Some kids just don't have a mature enough bladder. And the whole idea of day care vs. preschool and someone one is "better" academically than another. It all depends on the philosophy of the school/center and the teachers. I've seen people rave about the how great their preschool is and turn their noses up at daycare, and it's pretty clear from talking with them that the school is pushing the kids into developmentally inappropriate activity too early.

I just can't shake the issue because it is something we deem as "dirty" in our society that somehow it's OK to be so harsh on it.

It may be sterile, but it still needs to be cleaned up, no? When my kids have an accident at home on the carpet, I clean the carpet, regardless of whether it's sterile or not. If I don't, I will have the smell of pee lingering for a very long time. So, if a child pees on the school carpet, someone is going to clean it up. If she's sitting in their sand box, they might want to dilute with water. If she's wearing dress-up clothes, they'll need to be washed. It would take time for a teacher to do that. Also, I assumed it was 2 days a week of preschool, just because that's what my kid did :). So 8 accidents/month equals every day of school. It didn't occur to me to think she might be in school 5 days a week at age 3.

I want to add that although I was talking about differences between preschol and daycare, I think both are fine choices. I chose preschool only and not one as part of a daycare because I don't need the daycare and I wanted my kid(s) to arrive with all the others and not just be part of the group for 2-3 hours a day twice a week. That is the primary difference to me.

[JBaxter]

But the rest of the class must not have issues or they would have lots of openings. Jack is approaching potty training and will be by this summer all 3 of my older boys were potty trained by 2 - 2.5. I would not consider them potty trained if they had multiple accidents per week and would have looked for daycare type preschool for them instead of a free standing preschool.
I guess it bugs me that some parents think that rules should not apply to their children. I know not all children potty train at the same age but if yours is one that is on the later end of the scale then don't choose a preschool that requires them to be FULLY potty trained in stead of mostly but has frequent accidents. Rules are rules if your 3 or 30.
Like KrisM wrote if the child peed on the carpet it would take time to clean it "I" wouldnt want my child rolling around in an area where a child had peed without cleaning. Im glad the mother found a place that worked for her kid.