Why we discipline the way we do... (long)

[DrSally]

These are a lot of thoughtful questions. I don't think attachment parenting is the same as lax discipline. Discipline is defined as "teaching", rather than punishment (which included slapping). Some people don't discipline at all either out of guilt or laziness. IMO, AP starts in infancy and begins with trust and bonding/"attachment", so the child is open to the parent's teaching and influence. It is actually pretty labor/effort intensive, but seems to get easier as you go and build on previous time "investments". Anyway, the reason I choose not to slap or use physical punishment esp. is that:
1) it doesn't sit well with me (doesn't feel right).
2) it has been proven through research to be ineffective, only temporarily suppressing behavior, and causing an increased rebound in the negative behavior in the long term b/c the child feels either angry or scared.
3)Many parents use physical discipline to discharge their own anger onto the child and the potential for loss of control is strong.
4) Loss of trust in the parent/child relationship.
5) Sends the wrong msg. to the child (bigger people can control you through force), esp. as it applies to controlling aggressive behavior.

Those are my reasons for not using physical punishment and generally avoiding punishment in favor of positive (praise/direction) or negative reinforcement (time-outs) altough I haven't had to use them yet. At 2.5, DS is gentle by nature and (I hope) parenting. He started sharing and showing empathy before age 2, which usually happens closer to age 3. Anyway, I'm not trying to say he's perfect in any way, but I take his sensitive and mostly cooperative temperment into account when dealing with him. He gets very upset when others are hurt or upset and is very open to our wishes, so usually a few simple "commands" (no banging, no throwing) and redirection are enough in his case.

ETA: I strongly agree with pp's about factoring in age appropriate behavior. Babies don't know cause and effect (I was slapped b/c I pinched, so I shouldn't pinch), don't have a lot of forethought, etc.

ETA

[brittone2]

These are a lot of thoughtful questions. I don't think attachment parenting is the same as lax discipline. Discipline is defined as "teaching", rather than punishment (which included slapping). Some people don't discipline at all either out of guilt or laziness. IMO, AP starts in infancy and begins with trust and bonding/"attachment", so the child is open to the parent's teaching and influence. It is actually pretty labor/effort intensive, but seems to get easier as you go and build on previous time "investments". Anyway, the reason I choose not to slap or use physical punishment esp. is that:
1) it doesn't sit well with me (doesn't feel right).
2) it has been proven through research to be ineffective, only temporarily suppressing behavior, and causing an increased rebound in the negative behavior in the long term b/c the child feels either angry or scared.
3)Many parents use physical discipline to discharge their own anger onto the child and the potential for loss of control is strong.
4) Loss of trust in the parent/child relationship.
5) Sends the wrong msg. to the child (bigger people can control you through force), esp. as it applies to controlling aggressive behavior.

Those are my reasons for not using physical punishment and generally avoiding punishment in favor of positive (praise/direction) or negative reinforcement (time-outs).

Adding to this, there have also been studies showing that when punishment is regularly used, kids tend to "misbehave" etc. once they realize there is no adult/enforcer in the room. So in many cases it ultimately doesn't teach them to do the right things for the right reasons, but instead to behave out of fear of the punishment. Once the "punisher" is absent, the child will often act out if they think no one is watching.

(i'm butchering exact details there I'm sure, but that's the generally gist I believe).

[JTsMom]

I know this is going to be long, and possibly choppy b/c I have to write a little at a time, so fair warning in advance LOL.

First for you. We all make parenting choices that we later question and/or regreat. We're learning too- not just the kids, and one thing I learned (from GCM btw, and I'm not the least bit religious) is that we need to be gentle and forgiving of ourselves too, not just our kids. It's ok to start off believing one thing, then changing your mind as you learn more about your child- in fact, I think it's a good thing. I'm sure you've heard cracks about people who don't have children thinking they know everything about parenting? There's a reason people make those jokes!

As for why I discipline the way I do (AP)- there are many reasons, and I could never fully explain them on a message board. One is my background- I have a BA in psych, and I am certified in elem. ed. The things I learned in school about child development, and how people learn have lead me in this direction. Another is that I find that my style is what works well for my child. Other reasons include my own childhood experiences, the fact that this style is what makes sense in my own gut, and most importantly this is what I truley believe, in my own heart, to the depths of my soul, is the right thing to do.

It's already been said, but I want to be clear that I fully agree with the statements about AP parenting NOT being the same thing as permissive parenting. I think that false assumption is what leads a lot of people to believe that the children you see behaving in unacceptable ways are results of failed AP parenting. The AP parents I know IRL have some of the kindest, gentlest, pleasant-to-be-around kids I've ever met. The parents tend to be very aware of what their children are doing, and since they have made parenting their most important "job", they act quickly to discipline. I think another key point worth mentioning is that discipline does not mean punish- discipline means teach.

In the example you gave above, my ideal way of handling it (and please don't think I'm saying I am a perfect parent, believe me, I make PLENTY of mistakes, and I have LOTS to learn, I'm just saying if I was at my best this is how I would do it) would have started out similarly enough.

I would have started with explaining that we use gentle touches. Next, I would have thought about why she was doing it, and whether or not it was an age-appropriate expectation for DC to control that behavior- I would probably have decided she was just exploring faces, and touches, and it was not something she could really be expected to control on her own. NOT that this means it should be allowed to continue, but that I needed to help her.

I then would have moved DC far enough away from the other child so that she was unable to do it again, and then I would have given her something similar that WAS ok for her to do, for example, a baby doll who's face she could touch, or a child safe mirror so that she could check out her own face. If she continually came back to the baby, I would move even further away. I would not, under any circumstances, give her the chance to continue being rough.

Also, I would have been working with her before the incident on gentle touches, and more after the incident at home, showing her to respect people's boundaries, and modeling gentleness.

So, in answer to your friend's question about how else would she learn, I would say:
1. Prevention 2. Explanation 3. Modeling 4. Redirection 5. Removal from the situation

It might appear to an outsider that I "did nothing" but clearly, I would be doing a lot about it.

Going along with the ideas behind AP parenting, EVERYBODY has rights, and one of the foremost rights people should have is to be safe in their own space. Although my DC has a right to explore his world, he does not have the right to infringe upon others' rights, and I do my very best to make sure he does not.

No discipline style "works" in the sense that you do it once, and the undesired behavior dissappears forever. AP is no different. You have to teach the same lessons over and over, but eventually the child learns.

You've already been given some great recs for books/websites, but I thought I'd add that Kohn also has a DVD that is a really quick way to get a lot of info on the AP mindset. He goes into great detail on the "whys" and also gives some examples of "how".

FWIW, I think the fact that you are putting a lot of thought into this shows that you are a really committed, and loving parent.


P.S. I have no time to proof this right now, so please excuse any typos!

[ha98ed14]

Lori,

Thanks for your post. EVERYTHING you said was super helpful, especially the part about it being ok that I have not totally figured it out. I feel less guilty. Thanks for giving me permission to be, um, human. I think we hold ourselves to the standard of "make no mistakes" because its our kids we are talking about, but in reality, that is not possible. Everything has a learning curve, evening being a mom & discipline. I *know* that in my head, but I still need the external validation that its ok to "be gentle with myself," as you said.

One question, WHERE do I find information about what is age approriate behavior and therefore appropriate correction/ discipline? For example, how did you know that at 1, they don't remember for more than 2 minutes? It may seem obvious to others, but I actually need to be explicitly told/ read it somewhere to have it stick.

Thanks for your supportive message; it meant a lot.

[brittone2]

Ames and Ilig have a series called "Your X Year Old" (so there is "Your One Year Old", "Your Two Year Old", etc. etc.)

They are helpful in terms of getting a good picture of normal/typical development. I would skip any discipline advice as a lot of it is probably outdated, but the overall snapshot they provide of a given age is really helpful IMO.

[Jenny_A]

I just wanted to say that this is a great thread and I have taken a lot from it! I struggle too OP! I espcially could relate to how you thought you might have felt pressure from the other "strict" Moms in the situation you described. Sometimes I feel other Moms looking and seeming to say, "How are you going to deal with that behavior?". It's wrong to parent via peer pressure but I do feel it sometimes.

Anyway, good thread!

Jenny

[shilo]

Lori,
One question, WHERE do I find information about what is age approriate behavior and therefore appropriate correction/ discipline? For example, how did you know that at 1, they don't remember for more than 2 minutes? It may seem obvious to others, but I actually need to be explicitly told/ read it somewhere to have it stick.

Thanks for your supportive message; it meant a lot.

you're very welcome, we've all been there - repeatedly .

as far as age appropriate info, it comes from all sorts of places. i tend to do a lot of reading on the net, less in true 'parenting' books, but still some. i do have several of the books listed here as well as the AAP 'caring for your baby birth to age 5', '1-2-3 magic' and 'parenting with love and logic'. for me i take smatterings from all of them.

as far as websites, some of my bookmarks with good discipline and age appropriate expectations info (besides the oft referred to gentle christian mothers - even for/by those of us who don't consider ourselves particularly 'christian' per se) are:

http://www.babycenter.com/302_development_1516048.bc
http://www.pbs.org/wholechild/abc/index.html
http://www.robynsnest.com/
http://www.yourbabytoday.com/channel...nes/index.html

and i google. words like 'normal behavior', 'developmental milestones', 'age appropriate', etc. with whatever age i'm dealing with. you'd be surprised what's out there. just remember that will all things development related there is no ONE time or ONE path your kiddo 'should' be taking. everything has a 'range' of normal, including behavior. just like their fine and gross motor and speech skills, some kids will sail thru certain aspects of behavior and stumble a bit with others. this is totally NORMAL.

so basically, for me, i read from a variety of sources and just kind of get a general sense of what to expect and draw some logical conclusions on my own. sometimes you find the specific info you're looking for spelled out. sometimes you kind of have to synthesize the info for yourself. i may not have specifically read that a 1 year old can only remember what you said for 2 minutes - i can't recall, but i do remember reading that the avg. 1 year old has an attention span of 2-5 minutes and then i couple that with them being in a tactile exploratory mode at that stage and i guess i just start to connect the dots so to speak?

hth, lori

[ha98ed14]

Thanks for all the really thoughful and thorough replies. You all never cease to come through for me with all my questions

JTs Mom, THANK YOU for the play-by-play of how to discipline in this gentle, but effectlve way. I so *NEED* that I want someone to write a book that says, "If DC does X, Y is the appropriate gentle, guiding response that will send the message firmly but without hurting DC." Lol, Good Luck, right?

Anyway, I have been checking out GCM. I had previously looked at it but kind of written it off as not for me because, although we are Christian, we are not evangelical. I read some of their threads and find some of it hard to swallow or hard to live up to (Who keeps house joyfully? I hate housework!). Plus, I don't bf, CD, baby wear, co sleep. It is not that I don't agree with it; I think it is probably the better choice, but for me, my PPD was really hard. I actually had feelings of resentment for DD for the first several months. I did NOT want to bf, wear a sling, or do extra loads of laundry full of doo doo. I feel bad about this, guilty that I could not be a better mom who was/ is attached and happy about it. I am really fearful of putting myself out into a group who holds these as the ideals because I didn't/ can't live up to it. But you all say there are things to be learned from it, so I will reconsider. Do you post or just read certain sections? Maybe I will just read it, not join. That is an option.

Thanks again for all the resources and support.
Liz

[brittone2]

In terms of GCM, I hesitated years ago to go that site when I saw it recommended here. I'm definitely not evangelical. However, I think the Gentle Discipline board there rocks. You don't have to read the other stuff. Most people are coming from an AP perspective, but there are people there that didn't AP their kids or are there to stop spanking, yelling, etc. Just stick to reading the gentle discipline board if you think you might find it helpful (I love the stickies on the Comfort Corner vs. Time Outs, etc.)

I think the name is off-putting to people that don't identify with being an evangelical Christian. However, I think there is a LOT of valuable (and free!) information there and the ideas are based in a lot of books/parenting philosophies that lots of non Christian evangelicals use.

There are lots of explanations there about age-appropriate behavior and expectations. Lots of talk about setting kids up for success, which I love. Discussion about meeting your kids' needs when you see them starting to act out...are they hungry? tired? overstimulated? thirsty? I like the emphasis on teaching the *right* behavior and less emphasis and focus on punishing what was "wrong." I also like how people brainstorm about "what can I do in this situation" because it is real life...not from a book, kwim? It really helps me think outside of the box (I had so many lightbulb moments reading that site when DS was very young. Oh, he wants to throw. What about offering him things he *can* safely throw in the house? A box with throwing toys. Beanbags, cotton balls, a soft Gertie ball, etc. Hmmm....I can redirect the throwing of inappropriate objects and guide him toward throwing from the throwing box. Wow!). I'm just not that creative in the heat of the moment, but reading ideas on that site really makes me realize there are so many alternatives we can use to shape, guide, and teach the right behavior.

[ellies mom]

Anyway, I have been checking out GCM. I had previously looked at it but kind of written it off as not for me because, although we are Christian, we are not evangelical. I read some of their threads and find some of it hard to swallow or hard to live up to (Who keeps house joyfully? I hate housework!). Plus, I don't bf, CD, baby wear, co sleep. It is not that I don't agree with it; I think it is probably the better choice, but for me, my PPD was really hard. I actually had feelings of resentment for DD for the first several months. I did NOT want to bf, wear a sling, or do extra loads of laundry full of doo doo. I feel bad about this, guilty that I could not be a better mom who was/ is attached and happy about it. I am really fearful of putting myself out into a group who holds these as the ideals because I didn't/ can't live up to it. But you all say there are things to be learned from it, so I will reconsider. Do you post or just read certain sections? Maybe I will just read it, not join. That is an option.

Thanks again for all the resources and support.
Liz

I'm not an evangelical Christian either so I agree that a lot of the board can be off putting but the Gentle Discipline Forum within the main board is an excellent resource. And like you found out, you don't have to join to read that forum.

And another thing I do want to point out. Attachment parenting is not about cloth diapers. BFing, co-sleeping, and baby wearing are methods to foster that attachment because it keeps the baby close by you but AP looks different in every relationship. It is about building bonds with your child and meeting their needs. You do not need to do any of those "things" to build those bonds, they just make it a bit easier.