sleep training advice

[petesgirl]

So we messed up and have been rocking/walking DD to sleep the past few months. She has been a reflux/colic baby so it has been hard. But now at almost 8 months it takes her a long time to fall asleep in our arms and im starting to think her frequent night wakings are because she cant put herself back to sleep. So im ready to train. Would you just put her down and leave and let her cry or do the gentle, stay with her but dont pick her up method (somehow this seems more cruel to me, to be there but not pick her up.) And how would you proceed when she wakes up an hour later screaming? I would like to night wean but she is barely gaining weight so i think she still needs those feedings.

[mmsmom]

I highly recommend the Ferber book. He has a method for sleep training while still feeding too. I did sleep training following the method in the book exactly at 8 months (but no feeding) and the first night was tough, the next 2 better then by night 4 she was a perfect sleeper! I know that may not be typical and it takes longer for others but I am a firm believer that if your child is the right age and you stick to it there will be success. Good luck!

[bisous]

I'm not a sleep expert but my DS3 was a tricky one. It makes me sad to see you saying that you "messed up" by rocking/walking your DD to sleep because (having been there) I know sometimes we just do what we need to to get through and I don't think parents should feel bad for doing something gentle that helped them function in a tough time. I get what you mean, you feel like you have "bad" sleep habits, but babies are little and can pick up new routines quickly! I will say I did ultimately do a form of CIO with two of my kids, so I'm not anti-CIO at all but I do try to do it as gently as possible.

What helps me is that I set up a plan before I go cold turkey. I start doing the same couple of steps over and over (a routine) and then soothing to sleep. Then one day after those routines are well established, I'll kiss my baby on the head and walk out. It is really hard. I followed Weissbluth and just left the room totally. My babies learned within a few days to go to sleep even though it was very brutal for me. I think you could do something similar for nighttime feedings. My babies used to go right to sleep at night (didn't need walking or rocking) so I'm not much help there. Good luck!

[123LuckyMom]

I second Ferber. Don't look it up on the internet! Buy the book (or borrow it from the library) and read it all the way through. The method is very different than many people think it is. It should work within a week. If you decide to try it and have questions, there are lots of us who have used it and can help.

[petesgirl]

So i do have the ferber book...are you all talking about the method of checking in on them at different intervals

[goldenpig]

Petesgirl, you didn't mess up. Not every child is the same and what works or doesn't work for one may not apply to another. Especially if there is another medical condition going on like reflux or food allergies. Not sure if you have looked into food allergies as a cause, but I have had the same problem with all of my three babies, with reflux, poor sleeping and frequent night wakening. My DD also had poor growth. She would always wake up about 45 min to 1 hour after going to sleep and would wake up screaming and arching. I kept night nursing her because she was so tiny and because it was the only thing that seemed to calm her down. I didn't night wean her until about 18 months, and she didn't start sleeping through the night until after she was 2. I tried CIO several times for up to a week, but it just didn't work on her. She would cry so hard she would vomit. Or cry for over an hour with no improvement day to day. And she always woke up several times at night screaming.

I didn't realize it at the time, but she likely had a milk protein allergy causing her symptoms. (I only tried cutting out dairy once for a couple of weeks and wasn't completely eliminating all traces of it like butter, casein, whey). I just thought it was reflux and had her on a PPI till age 2. With DS I finally figured out it was the milk protein--he got better once I completely avoided all traces of dairy and I was able to stop the meds at age 1. But he would get the same symptoms of night wakening, rash, and reflux every time I would accidentally have something with even a tiny bit of dairy, like one piece of chocolate. And with DS2, he still was having symptoms even on a completely dairy-free diet, so I finally figured out he was also allergic to soy and eggs in addition to dairy. He is 18 months old and still in my bed. I am now starting to try to gently night wean and help him sleep longer, but sometimes he has setbacks if something I ate had dairy, eggs or soy (I try to be super careful but sometimes a hidden ingredient gets through) and then starts spitting up a lot, waking up at night and getting a rash on his face. I can usually tell the difference between his usual circadian/habit awakenings where he always wakes up at 12 pm on the dot and just wants to be soothed back to sleep, and reflux/allergy wakenings where he wakes up screaming an hour after he goes to bed and is arching and writhing around even when I'm rocking and holding him. When that happens sometimes nursing him is the only way to calm him down--I'm guessing the milk is soothing the burning or the sucking causes saliva to wash down the acid.

I think food allergy/eosinophilic esophagitis is becoming more common as a source of pediatric reflux, and a lot of cases of "colic" were actually reflux and/or food allergies:
http://www.ccjm.org/content/77/1/51.full

If DS2's not in the middle of a reaction (which is delayed and usually doesn't show up until a day after I ate something, and lasts up to a week sometimes), then I do try to work on weaning/self-soothing. But I can't really do full-on CIO. It just wasn't right for my kids because of their additional medical issues. I am trying to work on having a nursing free time zone, like 1-5 am and if he wakes up during that time, try the following instead of nursing--leave for a couple of minutes and come back, then pick him up and rock him for just a minute and put him down, then stay next to him and put a hand on his chest or back and say "shhhh shhhh, it's OK, night-night", then leave and let him cry for a couple more minutes; rinse and repeat until he falls asleep. He gets really angry if he can't nurse all night, but I'm telling him "Not time for milk right now, we'll have more in the morning".

I think I followed Jay Gordon's night weaning tips:
http://drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html

Anyways, thought I'd post my experiences in case it might help you. You may want to look into food protein allergies like milk, soy, eggs and eliminate those from your diet to see if it helps. And even if that doesn't apply, just know that you have to do what works for your kid and don't feel bad if you don't have good sleepers or have them on a schedule like everyone else (I got so annoyed when all of my friends would say, "Oh, my babies always slept 12 hours a night since they were eight weeks old"!) It's not your fault. We all get there in the end, we just take different routes. My older two are good sleepers now.

Good luck!

[Philly Mom]

For me with my second, I did two things that helped. First, at 6.5 months, I started giving greek yogurt two times a day. I had to because DD2 was on augmentin a lot and it really helped her stomach, but it also helped her sleep too. She started to gain weight better and just be more satisfied. I did not give yogurt to help sleep, but it did help. The second thing I did was to re-read Ferber from beginning to end. I had thought I had a good bed time routine, but reading Ferber made me realize I needed to make some changes. I made the changes to the bedtime routine and gave it a few days. I then started to tackle the night time wake ups. I picked one at a time and did the intervals. I did not feed during that one time. Once she started sleeping through the first one, I moved onto the second. Once she slept through the night a couple times, I never did a night time feed again as long as I knew she ate enough during the day. Within 2 days of that, she slept through the night.

Dropping the first feed was the hardest and I was tempted to go back, but it worked. I do not like to sit there and watch a baby cry. That to me is the worst so the intervals work best for me.

[Simon]

We were told not to CIO with our reflux baby, though YMMV. I'd make very sure she hasn't outgrown her dose since they're weight dependent and that it isn't a growth spurt or other cause before starting.

[azzeps]

Aww, you didn't mess up! Everybody does the best they can. It's ok that now you've decided what you're doing doesn't work anymore. So you're making changes. I used the Sleep Lady's book, she has a website etc.

[petesgirl]

Petesgirl, you didn't mess up. Not every child is the same and what works or doesn't work for one may not apply to another. Especially if there is another medical condition going on like reflux or food allergies. Not sure if you have looked into food allergies as a cause, but I have had the same problem with all of my three babies, with reflux, poor sleeping and frequent night wakening. My DD also had poor growth. She would always wake up about 45 min to 1 hour after going to sleep and would wake up screaming and arching. I kept night nursing her because she was so tiny and because it was the only thing that seemed to calm her down. I didn't night wean her until about 18 months, and she didn't start sleeping through the night until after she was 2. I tried CIO several times for up to a week, but it just didn't work on her. She would cry so hard she would vomit. Or cry for over an hour with no improvement day to day. And she always woke up several times at night screaming.

I didn't realize it at the time, but she likely had a milk protein allergy causing her symptoms. (I only tried cutting out dairy once for a couple of weeks and wasn't completely eliminating all traces of it like butter, casein, whey). I just thought it was reflux and had her on a PPI till age 2. With DS I finally figured out it was the milk protein--he got better once I completely avoided all traces of dairy and I was able to stop the meds at age 1. But he would get the same symptoms of night wakening, rash, and reflux every time I would accidentally have something with even a tiny bit of dairy, like one piece of chocolate. And with DS2, he still was having symptoms even on a completely dairy-free diet, so I finally figured out he was also allergic to soy and eggs in addition to dairy. He is 18 months old and still in my bed. I am now starting to try to gently night wean and help him sleep longer, but sometimes he has setbacks if something I ate had dairy, eggs or soy (I try to be super careful but sometimes a hidden ingredient gets through) and then starts spitting up a lot, waking up at night and getting a rash on his face. I can usually tell the difference between his usual circadian/habit awakenings where he always wakes up at 12 pm on the dot and just wants to be soothed back to sleep, and reflux/allergy wakenings where he wakes up screaming an hour after he goes to bed and is arching and writhing around even when I'm rocking and holding him. When that happens sometimes nursing him is the only way to calm him down--I'm guessing the milk is soothing the burning or the sucking causes saliva to wash down the acid.

I think food allergy/eosinophilic esophagitis is becoming more common as a source of pediatric reflux, and a lot of cases of "colic" were actually reflux and/or food allergies:
http://www.ccjm.org/content/77/1/51.full

If DS2's not in the middle of a reaction (which is delayed and usually doesn't show up until a day after I ate something, and lasts up to a week sometimes), then I do try to work on weaning/self-soothing. But I can't really do full-on CIO. It just wasn't right for my kids because of their additional medical issues. I am trying to work on having a nursing free time zone, like 1-5 am and if he wakes up during that time, try the following instead of nursing--leave for a couple of minutes and come back, then pick him up and rock him for just a minute and put him down, then stay next to him and put a hand on his chest or back and say "shhhh shhhh, it's OK, night-night", then leave and let him cry for a couple more minutes; rinse and repeat until he falls asleep. He gets really angry if he can't nurse all night, but I'm telling him "Not time for milk right now, we'll have more in the morning".

I think I followed Jay Gordon's night weaning tips:
http://drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html

Anyways, thought I'd post my experiences in case it might help you. You may want to look into food protein allergies like milk, soy, eggs and eliminate those from your diet to see if it helps. And even if that doesn't apply, just know that you have to do what works for your kid and don't feel bad if you don't have good sleepers or have them on a schedule like everyone else (I got so annoyed when all of my friends would say, "Oh, my babies always slept 12 hours a night since they were eight weeks old"!) It's not your fault. We all get there in the end, we just take different routes. My older two are good sleepers now.

Good luck!

I.have been on a pretty strict diet of rice, potatoes, avocados, olives, and apples since the first of september but nothing has changed. Unfortunately DD also got an ear infection and had a penicillin reaction so i havent been able to get her to a place where i can re intro foods. But i feel so weak and dizzy all the time and im sure my supply isnt very good but she absolutely refuses bottles and formula. Im just getting to the end of my rope with it all.