S/O Working Moms - How do you decide what you want to be when you grow up?

[Philly Mom]

This may be a ramble of sorts so I apologize. I am trying to think through my next move professionally and personally and how to prioritize to "have it all" to the extent possible. I am hoping to hear what some of you are also thinking/weighing and how far ahead are you thinking. What do you value about working, what do you not value, what other things do you think you could do/would want to do? In essence, how do you see yourself and do you think about where you are going? I will go first.

I am a law firm partner. I have worked hard to get here and at least part of me has wanted to do what I do for most of my life. Other things that interested me: a therapist, a teacher, and a rabbi (mainly for the counseling aspects of it, not the religious parts of it). I come from a family of lawyers so it is hard to discuss this with my normal support group. Here are is how I see myself:

* I like working/having a purpose to every day. I would not be nearly as productive if I did not have a career.
* My self worth is tied into being a lawyer/a mom WOH. If I stayed home, I know I would have a hard time with giving up the confidence I have in myself because to a certain extent I do it all.
* I believe there is a value to my DDs to see a working mom and letting them be equally proud of what their mom accomplishes as to what their dad accomplishes.
* I have a career and it is not just a job.
* I love my kids and I LOVE spending time with them, more than most other lawyer moms I know, by A LOT. I love bedtime and free time out in the yard when the weather is nice. I don't even mind some tantrums. I have a lot of patience for my kids. I would enjoy them even more if I didn't have work stresses hanging over me when we are together.
* I think my kids get a lot out of being in a school environment even at young ages. They both love school and other kids.
* I wish I had more extended free time, though, to have them have more "vacations" from school. They need it.
* I have been penalized at work for having two kids both financially and in my overall position with the firm. Some of my issues with my firm are my own doing. I love spending time with my kids and limit my hours in the office to 8:30-5 unless I have depositions, court, client entertainment or a rare evening business development event. When I joined my firm, I was sold on this flexibility and told that the firm encouraged such behavior. That is clearly not the case. Comments that have been made to me, while the person saying them thinks she is a huge supporter of women, are inappropriate and directly tied to my being a mom. ie. "I thought you were going to stay home full time with your kids because you actually like to spend time with them."
* My job has some travel, but I don't mind the limited travel I have even though coordinating care for the kids is stressful and falls 100% on my shoulders. I know they survive if I am gone or if we are both gone. It is finding a care giver that is stressful. Travel is a time to be adult focused and even read a book on a plane and that can be nice.
* I stay at my job even though I have been penalized/received comments because if I went almost anywhere else in the city, I would fight over origination credit for my clients and control over the matters because my clients use so many different lawyers around the city, I come at 8:30 and leave at 5 almost every day, take my kids to necessary appointment, and the devil you know is better than the one you don't. I have also worked at 2 other large law firms and have friends who are others. I know that I have it better than others (though my compensation is an issue.)
* While I like providing counsel to my clients and certain aspects of my job, there are other aspects of being lawyer which do not suit me. Oddly, I hate to argue. I like to find solutions/problem solve. Arguing is a waste of time, but alas, I work in an adversarial process.
* The other jobs I thought about once upon a time are much more suited to me but don't pay enough to make it worth to make a change at this point in my life.
* I am the principal parent because I want to be, I am more patient, it comes more naturally to me, I am more focused on it, DH travels 14+ weeks a year (always Sunday to Friday), and when we had DD1, DH was working in Big 4 Accounting, which requires hours of 7am-10 pm most of the year.
* DH is the principal housekeeper, shopper, cook, errand doer, etc.. because he wants to be. When he is home, he is great about making dinner, kids' lunches, my dinner, shopping, laundry, dish washing.
* I want to move to Florida where it is sunny and warm and where my parents are half the year. I believe my kids would be happier there and DD1 asks to move there at least once a week right now. I am trying to decide whether this is tied to my frustration with my partners or not. I think it would be hard for me to be a lawyer in Florida unless I found an in house job. I have one other related idea of something I could do in Florida that would be a spin off of the work that I do now, but would not actually be practicing law. I would need to network but I think I could possibly make the other idea work, but I would be without an income until that could happen.
* While we don't need my income to live, especially if we moved to Florida, we do need my income to be able think about the future and retirement.
* I also like my financial independence. We have joint everything but I would worry/feel guilt about going out to a meal with friends if I didn't work.
* I want my children to have some of the experiences I had as a kid. They require money and DH does not make that kind of money on his own.
* I think it is important for kids to see parents work for money and some of the struggles/sacrifices working people make.
* Most days, I don't think I could just stay home, but I would love to have a job that allowed me to be unreachable between 3:30-8pm (most of the time) so I can spend that time with my kids.
* Some days I would love to stay home and be able to have at least a moment for myself to exercise and put my needs first.
* Two of my closest friends stay home (both former professionals) and both are struggling right now with what to do with themselves now that their kids are in school. It is causing some anxiety, depression, loss of confidence. Neither want to work full time but they aren't happy with where they are right now.
* I have had no free time so since having a kid, I have not exercised and barely take time for myself. My time is strictly for work and my kids. DH and I are trying to make time for us and getting sitters once a month so we can go out on our own.

I think my question here is, does anyone else feel so conflicted? It's keeping me up at night. I was recently asked for my 5 year plan. I am not sure if I can give my 2 year plan, let alone a 5 year plan. For right now, I am keeping my head down, doing my work, keeping my client's happy, and making sure to bill enough hours that I can make a point about being under compensated. I also trying to be there for my kids, to play with them, enjoy them, but I will admit that this cold awful weather makes it hard. Of course, my 2 year plan is up in the air while we decide if we are going to move. I am trying to sort my thoughts about whether or not to move. If we did move, we would move a year to 15 months from now.

The amount this is weighing on me is driving me crazy. Until the past couple years, I was very confident in my job and my role as a mom. I am still confident in my abilities and the client service I provide, and my role as a mom, but the political dynamics of my firm are having me question a lot both about my career and myself. Anyone else's thoughts about either my situation or your own, would be appreciated.

[westwoodmom04]

I think you just need to leave law firm life behind -- it can be soul crushing. I was in Big Law for 10 years pre-kids then worked for the federal government in DC after kids. Life (and lawyering) is so much better when you aren't worrying about things like origination credit and billable hours. I loved working for the same client every day, being able to spend as much time as I thought necessary on my cases, and being involved with policy issues that transcended individual matters. I haven't worked in house but I think it would be a similar experience.

[hillview]

YES. BIG TIME. I have a freak out every 6 months to a year about some balancing issue (or poor balancing execution). My situation is
* exec in a software company, travel 30% (but CEO/boss and others wish it was more and in many cases my job would be better done it if was more)
* love my kids, feel they need me (each has special needs -- the older they get the MORE I feel like they need me)
* DH has a great job pays more than mine. we don't NEED my income but we travel with it and kids college and retirement is well funded by it
* I have ALWAYS worked and it is a BIG part of my identity YET don't love my work, often think about a totally different job that I'd like more but would get paid 40% at best of what I make now, and makes no sense
* we outsource a lot (care for my parents, his mom, have a part time nanny, part time house keeper etc)
* exercise (and hobbies other stuff I want to do) is a back seat to everything else -- I do work out a few times a week but feel terribly torn as it is taking away time from kids and work when I do
* don't love my job but get paid very well and do my job very well an expert in the area, do some limited speaking engagements etc.

SIGH. It is hard. If I didn't have kids I would LOVE to do a bigger job but NO WAY want to stop being a mom or even trade any more of my mom job for work. It is really hard (SUCKS really). I feel like this is pretty new territory in our generation and very little way to accommodate OR (more likely) that we were sold (bought) a bag of goods that you can have it all, lean in, be super mom and feed organic, avoid BPA, work out, cook dinner and eat as a family every night blah blah and feel fulfilled. I call BS on that

[westwoodmom04]

One other thought, building on what Hillview posted, it sounds like you can afford some time off but don't want it to be a permanent thing. Any chance your firm would give you an unpaid sabbatical? if not, and you plan to job hunt, I would take three to six months between jobs if you could. One of my friends took off exactly one year during her kids' last year of preschool. Nine months in, she started looking for a new job and she started within a year, almost exactly, of leaving her last job.

[basil]

I'll reply, but I don't know if this will be helpful to you!

I'm not a lawyer, I'm a physician. In a lot of ways it's the same but different. I'm in a surgical specialty that is fairly male dominated, but my call responsibilities aren't terrible. I'm a good surgeon, and I give everything I have to my patients. Where I fall short is in really making a 'career' out of my practice. I have not advanced nationally and in a research realm as much as my (male) colleagues because I do not have the time outside of work to spend on writing proposals, papers, presentations, and traveling to meetings and networking.

My DH is also a physician and has a more difficult schedule, and because of geography and hours, can't drop off or pick up the kids from daycare. So he has to take vacation if I were to travel. So we would use up all his vacation with me being gone.

I've thought about going part time - but for what? I feel like the stuff I fall most behind on at home is the housework. I would rather work than do housework. This may change as my kids get older...I love my kids and I love spending time with them and due to DH's schedule I'm often the primary provider. Like you, maybe, I feel like I would like more defined boundaries between work and home. And I'd like more time for myself - to work out, to hang out with friends.

I couldn't not work. I just couldn't. I like what I do, and I like the social interaction it provides me, and I really couldn't think of what else I could do that I would enjoy more that would make any money at all (shopping and eating at fancy restaurants are not careers, last I checked). I really enjoyed my maternity leaves, but I know my DH would freak out without our second income, even though by all means we should make enough to survive. He already sort of resents my moderate spending, so that would just exacerbate that problem. Plus, I just wonder what I would do all day, aside from housework, which I hate. As long as I am working I have a good excuse to hire it out.

Anyway, we decided to move states for new opportunities for both DH and I. It's going back home for me, and it will be close to where my parents and extended family live (brother and SIL, cousins, uncle/aunts). I'm hoping that helps somewhat with the stress of balancing things for me.

[daisysmom]

OP, I could have written so many elements of your post. And I have a lot of female attorney friends who are experiencing the same things.

Just touching on a few things-- I too agree that we have incredible flexibility in many ways and leaving to go to another firm won't help. I left one AmLaw firm to go to another in town, and didn't plan on bringing any clients. I was lucky, and a large client came over to me a year after I had moved. Then someone senior left from that client to be general counsel at another client. I have really been lucky -- but we see it all of the time with laterals -- it is nearly impossible to bring a book of business to another firm (and you know the company mentality of liking to spread their work around). When I left my one firm in my 17th year of practice, I truly underestimated how much I would miss my friends and the goodwill I had there among my partners. I had a distinct reason for coming to this other firm and some ties here which are also good, but I really did miss the friendships. It is very hard to replicate that. I don't think you said how long you had practiced, but I have been out 21.5 years and I think switching to another big firm (or similar sized firm) is just not generally a good move. Laterals need to be cut throat to succeed in a new place.

-None of my friends who have left the practice of law are staying home in a traditional sense of the word. I wouldn't either. I am too regimented and need office life - I am an extrovert and need to feeling of others around. The days I take off (I am part time so can do that), are completely scattered. I know myself to know that. But I have a really good friend who "retired" and has written a novel and it is doing well, she is on her second book. I have a few friends who are directors of nonprofits (we are in a medium sized city, so prior big-law experience is a perfect forray into this). I have other friends who go to the private schools where their kids are and work in the office, in Development, etc. My dad retired from being a doctor, took a preplanned 2 months of doign nothing, and then enrolled as a fulltime student in his local college. He takes a full class load, every day.

- So when I look at "retiring", I know that I will still be "working" every single day. I would never spend my days shopping or eating at fancy restaurants. But I would prioritize 1 hour of regular exercise and 2-3 hours of time with my child. My child's school is very heavy on sports (required for 3 seasons for middle school and up) so I know that many afternoons will be spent watching/volunteering/participating in some way with sporting events. I envision doing some volunteer (or paid work) but having it be more of a 10-3 "job".

Someone once gave me advice that when I feel like quitting/changing roles, instead spend the next 3-6 months prioritizing myself and cutting back and see if anyone notices. Don't write it on a billboard, but schedule time out of the office/away and see what happens. Don't take the stress home and incessantly check the iPhone while working on homework for my child. This friend once said -- try this and see what happens. I have never done it, but I have passed the advice on to others.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I'll reply, but I don't know if this will be helpful to you!

I'm not a lawyer, I'm a physician. In a lot of ways it's the same but different. I'm in a surgical specialty that is fairly male dominated, but my call responsibilities aren't terrible. I'm a good surgeon, and I give everything I have to my patients. Where I fall short is in really making a 'career' out of my practice. I have not advanced nationally and in a research realm as much as my (male) colleagues because I do not have the time outside of work to spend on writing proposals, papers, presentations, and traveling to meetings and networking.

My DH is also a physician and has a more difficult schedule, and because of geography and hours, can't drop off or pick up the kids from daycare. So he has to take vacation if I were to travel. So we would use up all his vacation with me being gone.

I've thought about going part time - but for what? I feel like the stuff I fall most behind on at home is the housework. I would rather work than do housework. This may change as my kids get older...I love my kids and I love spending time with them and due to DH's schedule I'm often the primary provider. Like you, maybe, I feel like I would like more defined boundaries between work and home. And I'd like more time for myself - to work out, to hang out with friends.

I couldn't not work. I just couldn't. I like what I do, and I like the social interaction it provides me, and I really couldn't think of what else I could do that I would enjoy more that would make any money at all (shopping and eating at fancy restaurants are not careers, last I checked). I really enjoyed my maternity leaves, but I know my DH would freak out without our second income, even though by all means we should make enough to survive. He already sort of resents my moderate spending, so that would just exacerbate that problem. Plus, I just wonder what I would do all day, aside from housework, which I hate. As long as I am working I have a good excuse to hire it out.

Thank you so much for replying... I always feel like i'm a big outlier on these boards whenever this subject comes up. I totally agree with the bolded. I have absolutely no desire to ever quit working, no matter how much $$ DH made. That never really comes up as an option ever in my mind.

i WOH FT, have a 5yo and an almost 4yo at home and I feel like I am juggling things pretty well. I don't have everything all together, I just stopped with the mom guilt and recognized that my kids are happy and thriving at their school, I am happy, my DH is happy, and that's all what matters. I work out a few times a week and I don't feel a lick of guilt over it (i don't think anyone should!) It helps that i really love my job, i feel like i'm making good contributions, it pays pretty well and I get recognized/appreciated at work for what I do. While i do have a bad commute (will fix that this summer by moving) I never have to travel, so I guess that does make it easier. And while the tech industry is not exactly well-known for being family-friendly (very male dominated, part-time gigs are non-existent, and working from home is often not an option), i do feel like my particular workplace is pretty good (people are not penalized for taking time off work for sick kids, that kind of thing).

And yes, i also HATE cleaning/housework. i think the only place i guess fall short with being a working mom is that the house is generally a cluttered mess. but when i was a SAHM it was also a cluttered mess, so it's not like me not working (or working less) would help that at all..I know i would first find a zillion other better things to do than clean So at least now I can just use the fact that i am out of the house 10-11 hrs a day as an excuse for my house not being spic-n-span. I can live with that.

eta: i am so sorry OP to hear about the recent dynamics of your firm..it is a shame so many companies/firms aren't more family-friendly. i can imagine how a company you dont feel is all that supportive of your personal/family time can make or break your attitude on having a career or not. i remember all your encouraging working mama advice from 1-2 years ago when i just started working and was so overwhelmed with the transition. hoping that if you decide to move you find a much better environment!

[Philly Mom]

I think you just need to leave law firm life behind -- it can be soul crushing. I was in Big Law for 10 years pre-kids then worked for the federal government in DC after kids. Life (and lawyering) is so much better when you aren't worrying about things like origination credit and billable hours. I loved working for the same client every day, being able to spend as much time as I thought necessary on my cases, and being involved with policy issues that transcended individual matters. I haven't worked in house but I think it would be a similar experience.

I think you may be right and I need to think about what type of organization I want to be part of and what I can offer.



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[Philly Mom]

YES. BIG TIME. I have a freak out every 6 months to a year about some balancing issue (or poor balancing execution). My situation is
* exec in a software company, travel 30% (but CEO/boss and others wish it was more and in many cases my job would be better done it if was more)
* love my kids, feel they need me (each has special needs -- the older they get the MORE I feel like they need me)
* DH has a great job pays more than mine. we don't NEED my income but we travel with it and kids college and retirement is well funded by it
* I have ALWAYS worked and it is a BIG part of my identity YET don't love my work, often think about a totally different job that I'd like more but would get paid 40% at best of what I make now, and makes no sense
* we outsource a lot (care for my parents, his mom, have a part time nanny, part time house keeper etc)
* exercise (and hobbies other stuff I want to do) is a back seat to everything else -- I do work out a few times a week but feel terribly torn as it is taking away time from kids and work when I do
* don't love my job but get paid very well and do my job very well an expert in the area, do some limited speaking engagements etc.

SIGH. It is hard. If I didn't have kids I would LOVE to do a bigger job but NO WAY want to stop being a mom or even trade any more of my mom job for work. It is really hard (SUCKS really). I feel like this is pretty new territory in our generation and very little way to accommodate OR (more likely) that we were sold (bought) a bag of goods that you can have it all, lean in, be super mom and feed organic, avoid BPA, work out, cook dinner and eat as a family every night blah blah and feel fulfilled. I call BS on that

You nailed what I am feeling, I don't want to trade any more of my mom job for work, at least not long term, and I think I am at a crossroads where I either need to or move to a totally different type of organization.


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[gymnbomb]

- I am full time but not tenure track teaching faculty at a state university. I worked semi hard for 10 years to get my PhD and I am doing exactly what I want to be doing.

- It does not pay well (just under 46K plus whatever I manage to get for summer which can range from nothing to about 10K) but the schedule is wonderful. We live in a moderate COL area.

- DH makes roughly the same as my 9 month salary. He would be a stay at home dad if he could, but there is no way we will ever be able to afford one of us staying home. He doesn't hate his job, but does it because he has to and it is definitely a "job" to him and not a "career".

- I very much like having winter, spring and summer breaks, but have no desire to stay home all the time. In addition to being the kind of person who needs to work to avoid going crazy, I genuinely like both my job and my coworkers.

- I really wish my job had the potential for more job security and a higher salary, but I have it great right now and my plan is to stay with it as long as I can. We bought a house about 3 years ago and just added a garage last year and I feel settled in.

- I am the primary parent although DH is a very willing and hands on dad. He is the primary cook. We share cleaning and that is what usually falls through the cracks. I wish cleaning help was in our budget.

- there is a possibility (though it is far from certain) that my job description and title may be able to get changed which would probably come with a raise. If it were to happen, I think I would like to have a second baby about 3 years apart from DS. If it doesn't happen I don't think we will be able to comfortably afford daycare for two kids.


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