Kids in cafes?

Here's an article about a cafe that demands "good manners" from it's smallest customers - or else they're not welcomed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/na...ery.html?8hpib

About the child who was lying on the floor between tables: would you let your kid do that? Why or why not? I'm very curious about this one!

[aliceinwonderland]

When my kid is loud or in any way disruptive, one of us takes him outside and we finish the meal up very quickly.This happened this weekend, BTW...I think casual, in and out coffee-houses which are rather loud with or without kids, should probably have a bit of a lower standard, but I personally do not feel right about disrupting someone else's experience just because I have a kid :)

Obviously, places like Chukky Cheese (or whatever it's called) etc. are free game as they specifically cater to kids and the expectations are a bit adjusted :).

[murpheyblue]

I have a two year old and if she is being disruptive or just won't sit still (not a rare occurance) one of us takes her outside or over to an open kitchen if the restaurant has one. Actually, given the level of dining establishment we frequent with our two year old, we're usually goig to look at the pizza chef.

The signs kind of irk me. It's sort of sad that we need signs regarding things that should be common courtesy but the thing that really boters me is the whole passive-aggressive nature of it. If someone has a kid that's lying in the middle of a coffee line, perhaps you should tap the oblivious parents on the shoulder and ask them to kindly remove their child from the floor so she doesn't get stepped on. The sign just seems like bad way to go about it. The people who are oblivious to their child's conduct anyway probably don't think the sign applies to them. It just ends up irking the rest of us.

[Momof3Labs]

Laying on the floor between tables? No way. When we are at a restaurant, DS stays in his chair or is sometimes allowed to move to a different chair (or my lap) at our table. If he insists on getting down, one of us leaves with him so that he's not in the way of the servers (or anyone else if we can help it). Some of the behavior described in the article is way beyond what I would tolerate as a parent, but to expect a baby or small child to not utter a peep above a certain decibel level? Unreasonable.

But as far as his volume, I use my judgement. If the place is noisy, I let him get away with being a little louder. If the place is relatively quiet (it's rare that we're eating anywhere like that), we work harder to quiet him down and lower his voice. It's the same thing that we do as adults - we tend to talk and laugh a bit louder in places that are already loud, and vice versa.

The sign itself is what it is - at least you know up front that the place is not kid-friendly. But the comments from the owner are almost laughable. Like he's going to make any difference in the world by doing this! In fact, it sounds an awful lot like Mariana's daddy drive-by on the bitching post today!

[g-mama]

It's easy to say that the parent should just leave with the child until he can behave politely and remain quiet if you are one or two parents with one child. What about when you have two or more children and you've already sat down and spread out your food? You can't leave quite so easily.

One particular instance, my younger ds was having a total meltdown at a local pizza place and I was there alone with both boys. I did decide to leave, but it took a good 5-10 minutes to get out the door. I had to try to get someone's attention at the counter to request a to-go box for the food we hadn't even been able to touch yet, then pack it all up, then explain to my older ds why we had to leave, and try to get jackets on, etc. All the while, the other patrons were staring at us and giving me dirty looks. By the time we got out the door, I was in tears. This while dragging my 2yo out by the arm because he wouldn't walk and asking my 4yo to carry the food for us, which he nearly dropped.

On another occasion, I was out with my two boys and a friend with her two kids. My older ds started nagging me and going crazy about some toys that were in the front of the restaurant and wouldn't calm down. I tried to take him out but my younger ds, who was around 1 at the time, started crying when I walked away from the table. I couldn't leave my girlfriend there alone to deal with him and her children, too, nor would it be fair to the other guests to leave him there crying for me. What do you do??

I do try to get my children to behave when we go out to eat, but I usually see better behaved children than my own. Some of it is just the nature of the child, I'm sure some of it is me. If I am ever out with just one of them, they do much better without the other one egging them on and riling them up. Four girlfriends and I went out last weekend for a Moms Day Out to the Ritz Carlton for tea and there was a family there with two little girls sitting like little angels and I just cannot fathom that. I don't know how you get kids to behave that way in such an environment, but a large part of me believes kids either have it in them or they don't.


Kristen
Paolo 11-00
Benjamin 8-03
and a *THIRD BOY* coming in December '05

[kedss]

I once worked as a waitress in a music hall/bar/restaurant, and a couple brought in their 3 year old. He promptly dove under the table and started screaming. It was a Sunday in the early evening, and they were the only table, so I climbed under the table with him and calmed him down, and let him stay there. His parents were amazed! LOL...

We are lucky that we live in a town that is generally kiddo friendly, and lucky that our kiddo is generally very well behaved in public. If he does act up, I generally remove him as quickly as possible, and that is usually when he won't get into his stroller as we are leaving, so its not usually a big deal.

And no, I wouldn't let my DS lay on the floor between tables esp as a former waitperson, knowing how clean/unclean those floors are, and knowing how annoying it is to have to step over kids while trying to work.

How sad. :( We have a great place here in Seattle that welcomes kids with open arms!!! It has an indoor play area -- complete with a toy kitchen, dollhouse and books. There should be more restauranteurs who think this way. http://www.seattleweekly.com/feature...d_soukakos.php (warning: sad PPD backstory to the restaurant).

As for lying on the floor...no, I wouldn't allow my child to do that -- it's simply not safe! We work on manners at home and out at restaurants. We don't go to places like ChuckECheese, but do choose places that match well with our children's ages and abilities as well as being enjoyable for us.

Spending time in a country that has a child-friendly culture will quickly make one aware of just how messed up the US is in the way we treat children and parents. Why do we feel the need to be so separated from children, and the realities of what being a child means? Why should a mom end up in tears because she's getting dirty looks while going through the difficult process of trying to leave a restaurant with a child who is upset?
When traveling abroad with DS, I've had the opposite experience. When he got fussy ona bus ride, several passengers smiled and played with him until he was happy. When we were eating out and he got fussy, the same thing happened. I think the way our culture devalues children leads to increased isolation of moms, who are stuck at home to avoid getting dirty looks. IMO, Chucky Cheese or other nasty restaurants shouldn't be your only option with children.
I think as long as you're attending to your children's needs, it's fine if they have an outburst in public. After all, we were all two once, and we all had an outburst in public. The only way children learn how to behave at restaurants is by going to them, not by being excluded.
I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me, but I really don't care. Spending time in other countries and cultures where children are valued and cherished makes one really question how we even got to the point where children are excluded from so many types of spaces in the US, and why mothers are ostracized for taking their children places. I've seen (and gotten) dirty looks in grocery stores, and pretty much any place I've been when DS has gotten a little bit fussy. I always tend to his needs, and then tell whoever is glaring at me, "You were once an unhappy toddler in a store." When I say things like this, they tend to get defensive and pretend that they didn't think anything was wrong...but their previous looks/comments made it obvious that they did. If you point out the way other people are being judgemental, it often brings them out of the place of judgement and puts them in your shoes.

This makes total sense to me and I see your point. I also agree that the child's temperment determines how easy it is to achieve "good behavior."

I still see lots of one-child families with kids doing all sorts of things I personally wouldn't tolerate, and the parents don't seem to mind or notice. I've been on playdates, for instance, where there's a one-to-one ratio, and the kids are grabbing pound bags of coffee off the shelf and running around the room with them. It's those parents I'm wondering about. Does it come from a laissez-faire parenting philosophy, are they choosing the restaurant time to take a break, or what? I like and respect many of the parents I've seen do this (outside the realm of parenting), but I am wondering why they let their kids do things like this. But if I ask them, it will seem like judgment. I'd like to think they have good reasons, which is why I'm asking. Your answer cleared it up for more than one kid. Thanks!

ITA that fussiness can't be avoided and should not be scorned when the parents are doing their best to take care of the situation. But what about other things? In these child-friendly countries, do kids lie on the floor in restaurants and bounce off the display cases? Is that kind of behaviour met with smiles and strangers offering to play with the kids? I am asking in all seriousness!

Edited to add that I take my child almost everywhere, including very fancy restaurants, and I don't feel like I've met very much negative energy in that department even here in the USA.