a 5 year old just told me that my house is disgusting.

[lizajane]

that's right. disgusting. well, technically, she told her mother. who was sitting two feet away from me. i believe her exact words were, "this house is disgusting. everything is wet. (schuyler spilled some water and i made him clean it up, so not the best dry-up job). miss liza never cleans it enough. and it doesn't smell very good. it has a bad smell."

and her mother's response was, "that isn't nice."

um.

i spent from 8:30am until 2:30 exhausting myself cleaning up from christmas travel, leaving the dogs alone in the house while we were gone(read: dirt and fur), all the piled up dishes we were too tired to clean up after getting back from travelling, unpacking, putting away laundry after doing about 5 loads of laundry today alone, vacuuming upstairs, downstairs, even the chairs, putting toys away, hanging up coats, wiping counter tops, sweeping the deck so more junk won't be tracked in...

again. um.

apparently, no one is every invited over again because you would all be way to disgusted to TOUCH THE DOORKNOB ON THE WAY OUT. yes, that really happened.

(FYI: yes, my house smells like two labs and yes she is terrified of dogs. so i will give her that one.)

ETA: i am so mad at myself for not speaking up to this child. i should have told her that this is my home that my husband and i work hard to pay for and take care of and she is not allowed to speak to me or about my home that way.

[elizabethkott]

Wow.
I mean really. Wow.
And wth is up with the mom? If I were in that situation and my kid said something like that to an adult, I honestly don't know what I would say to him, but you bet your butt it would be something stronger than "That isn't nice".
I certainly wouldn't have them over again, and in fact would state, "Well, we'd have you over, but the place seems to just be disgusting so..." the next time a playdate is mentioned.
But I'm passive aggressive like that.
:)

[sarahsthreads]

Yeah, that happened with one of my nieces around that age, and her parents just laughed about it. I would have at least preferred "that isn't nice" to the laughter - obviously they agreed. And I, too, had cleaned for hours before they came. My dogs tend to shed and smell like, well, dogs too.

I'd like to think that my kids will never be that rude to anyone, but I think that's partly just that age, when they haven't learned to filter their thoughts before they say hurtful things. But you'd better believe that if I witnessed such behavior I'd say something more than "that's not nice."

Sarah

P.S. I'd be more than happy to come to your house, dog-smell and wet floors and all. We'd feel very at home. :)

[lizajane]

P.S. I'd be more than happy to come to your house, dog-smell and wet floors and all. We'd feel very at home. :)[/quote]

please do bring your kids AND your dogs for a playdate. :)

[kijip]

Holy c#$p!

Toby once passed an open door to a total pigsty of an apartment (someone we did not know!) and pointed and said that it was messy and someone should clean it up. We have a lot of friends who do not keep their houses very clean (not that I care in the least bit) and I worked with him for WEEKS after that open door incident reminding him that under NO circumstances do you EVER say anything like that to ANYONE. Had he done it at a friend's house, especially a house that is not very messy at all like you described yours, I would have done a heck of a lot more than say "that's not nice". What the heck was that mother thinking? I would be MORTIFIED if Toby said that to a friend of mine. One time he said something about a house that was being remodeled (I'd gone over to drop J off so he could help the husband and p/u their daughter to get her out of the messy work for the day), and even that time I scolded him and reminded him to keep his mouth shut about people's messes. And that time, his words were not considered offensive by the homeowners...more like "yup, we are making a big mess to fix up the house!". FTR, Toby was under *three* each of these times. He is 4 and 1/2 now and there is no way he would get away with that- kids that age (the girl was FIVE?) are old enough to learn what is hurtful and apologize when they are hurtful.

I would so never, ever have that mother over again.

[lizajane]

Wow.
I mean really. Wow.
And wth is up with the mom? If I were in that situation and my kid said something like that to an adult, I honestly don't know what I would say to him, but you bet your butt it would be something stronger than "That isn't nice".
I certainly wouldn't have them over again, and in fact would state, "Well, we'd have you over, but the place seems to just be disgusting so..." the next time a playdate is mentioned.
But I'm passive aggressive like that.
:)

here's the thing. this is my employee and her child. so we don't even really do playdates, we just let the kids play when we conduct business. she has become my friend and i do care about her. but i think i will just deliver things to her from now on. (she came today to pick up her part of a shared fabric wholesale order.)

[dogmom]

Well, if it was my child I would hope I have enough composure to say something like, "That isn't nice" instead of being a sputtering wreck. Of course if my DS said it something like that I'm sure it would be because he is copying me in our own home waving my arms around acting like a maniac going, "This place is disgusting!" I think I lot of times children mimic what we say in a slightly different circumstance and don't understand when it is right/wrong. (OK to call your own house disgusting, not another.) We had a go around a few years ago because my DS was calling himself stupid. We couldn't figure out where he got that from until we realize we call the dogs "stupid dogs" about, I don't know, 12 times a day. *Of course in an loving way.*

I'm just saying that there might be a explanation that does not involve an adult bashing your house cleaning ability. Also, some people just want a different level of cleanliness than I have in my house. Some people are completely grossed out that the dogs sleep with me. However, my kids have nice strong immune systems, never had an antibiotic, and don't have asthma. Yeah dogs!

[SnuggleBuggles]

That stinks. :(

I have a question though...what would you have preferred the mom say or do? B/c I think there is a chance that I would have said that too and in private later discussed proper behavior and appropriate comments. I may have pulled dc aside then and there to talk about it but it would probably depend on the age of the child (a 2yo would need to be talked to sooner than a 5yo, for example, just so it was still fresh in the brain) as well as the situation. I really would have been so embarrassed and would prefer to handle the situation w/o an audience. Does that make sense?

Beth

[dr mom]

Oh Liza, I've been to your house and it is NOT disgusting, it is comfortable and child-friendly. It's impossible to keep a spotless "Southern Living" home when you have kids and dogs - I have both, so I totally understand how toys and dirt and dog hair seem to mysteriously appear from thin air.

I am wondering though, if they were "too disgusted" to touch the doorknob on the way out, how did they get out of the house? Did mom use a hanky or a paper towel, as I have occasionally done in a particularly heinous public restroom? Or...trapped by the dirty doorknob with no possible means of escape...ARE THESE AWFUL PEOPLE STILL CAPTIVE IN YOUR DISGUSTING HOUSE, Mu-ha-ha-ha-ha! :D

[lizajane]

That stinks. :(

I have a question though...what would you have preferred the mom say or do? B/c I think there is a chance that I would have said that too and in private later discussed proper behavior and appropriate comments. I may have pulled dc aside then and there to talk about it but it would probably depend on the age of the child (a 2yo would need to be talked to sooner than a 5yo, for example, just so it was still fresh in the brain) as well as the situation. I really would have been so embarrassed and would prefer to handle the situation w/o an audience. Does that make sense?

Beth

i agree that a discussion on the car ride home would be an appropriate way to handle the situation. but if my child had said something that ugly in front a friend, i woud have 1) refuted the child's remark and 2) instructed the child to apologize. and i would have gone on to take away a privledge immediately, so that the crime and punishment were well connected. but that is me. i mean, taking something away. i honestly don't know any other mom-friend who would not have insisted on an immediate apology from the child and who would not have aplogized herself. i would have said, "child, this house is not disgusting and you are not to use such ugly words with our friends. i understand that you feel overwhelmed by the dogs who live here, but that is no reason to say mean things to miss houseowner about her home. you need to tell her you are sorry for using ugly language that is just plain untrue."

[lizajane]

Oh Liza, I've been to your house and it is NOT disgusting, it is comfortable and child-friendly. It's impossible to keep a spotless "Southern Living" home when you have kids and dogs - I have both, so I totally understand how toys and dirt and dog hair seem to mysteriously appear from thin air.

I am wondering though, if they were "too disgusted" to touch the doorknob on the way out, how did they get out of the house? Did mom use a hanky or a paper towel, as I have occasionally done in a particularly heinous public restroom? Or...trapped by the dirty doorknob with no possible means of escape...ARE THESE AWFUL PEOPLE STILL CAPTIVE IN YOUR DISGUSTING HOUSE, Mu-ha-ha-ha-ha! :D

i think they are maybe hiding in the basement??? ;)

the child tried to use her shirt sleeve to touch the door and protect her hand while the mom insisted over and over again with more and more volume that she OPEN THE DOOR NOW. when the mom insisted that she pull back her sleeve, she used two fingers to very hesitantly touch the door as little as possible until, after many failed attempts, the doorknob actually turned in spite of her weak us of force and great number of failures as her hands slid off the knob and it made a funny noise.

off to take a photo to prove that my house has not been condemned... and to freak out that the mom is going to find this thread and die of distrust of me...

[Ceepa]

I can tell you're very upset and understandably so, but you made the right choice in not laying into a 5 year old about how DH and you pay for the house and she's not allowed to talk to you like that in it.

[sarahsthreads]

Well, if it was my child I would hope I have enough composure to say something like, "That isn't nice" instead of being a sputtering wreck. Of course if my DS said it something like that I'm sure it would be because he is copying me in our own home waving my arms around acting like a maniac going, "This place is disgusting!" I think I lot of times children mimic what we say in a slightly different circumstance and don't understand when it is right/wrong.

*Snort*. I just realized that I frequently comment to DD about what a disaster our house is, and she's started saying it to DH when he comes home - "Daddy, the house is a 'saster!" I suppose I'd better start coaching her on how that's ONLY appropriate to say about our own house now! (And, boy, is it totally appropriate - especially as SIL & BIL are here with their four kids for the weekend. Let me just say, five children between the ages of 3 and 6 can cause a tornado level disaster mess in under 10 minutes!)

And as a PP asked, I think at the very least asking the child to apologize is appropriate, even if you'd prefer to follow up in private. I would also apologize to the other mom myself, just to make it clear that I did not feel the same way. Having been on the receiving end, that would have made me feel a lot better!

Sarah :)

[kcandz]

i agree that a discussion on the car ride home would be an appropriate way to handle the situation. but if my child had said something that ugly in front a friend, i woud have 1) refuted the child's remark and 2) instructed the child to apologize. and i would have gone on to take away a privledge immediately, so that the crime and punishment were well connected. but that is me. i mean, taking something away. i honestly don't know any other mom-friend who would not have insisted on an immediate apology from the child and who would not have aplogized herself. i would have said, "child, this house is not disgusting and you are not to use such ugly words with our friends. i understand that you feel overwhelmed by the dogs who live here, but that is no reason to say mean things to miss houseowner about her home. you need to tell her you are sorry for using ugly language that is just plain untrue."
See, that is way too harsh a response IMO. In that girl's view, your house was disgusting. You said yourself she doesn't like your dogs. Just because she is 5 doesn't mean she isn't entitled to her opinions. However, she is not entitled to share them with the world when they are offensive. My response would have been more of a mix of the two. "that isn't nice" doesn't teach much. But 1)refuting the remark is telling your child her impressions aren't valid. I won't do that. 2) yes I would request an apology. I would *not* take away a privilege because a child is still learning how to self edit and again, I refuse to punish for a child having his/her own independent feeling, no matter if misguided.

I would say something more like "that is not polite to say to another person in their home. Please apologize for saying something rude." I'm on the fence about car ride home or not. I'm inclined to just go into it right then and there - excuse ourselves to another room for a moment to teach.

I know this is BP and you are frustrated because you busted your exhausted self to get your house in tiptop shape, so a crack like that must push a button.

[AngelaS]

She was rude but she's 5. I think her mom is the one at fault here. I've been in the shoes of her mom a couple of times....the ones where your child says something SO insanely rude that you're just mortified and don't know what to say.

If I'd been the mom, I would've immediately scolded the child for being rude, made her apologize AND you'd be getting a handwritten letter of apology in the mail after my dd got a bit of a lecture on what's polite and what is not.

[lizajane]

See, that is way too harsh a response IMO. In that girl's view, your house was disgusting. You said yourself she doesn't like your dogs. Just because she is 5 doesn't mean she isn't entitled to her opinions. However, she is not entitled to share them with the world when they are offensive. My response would have been more of a mix of the two. "that isn't nice" doesn't teach much. But 1)refuting the remark is telling your child her impressions aren't valid. I won't do that. 2) yes I would request an apology. I would *not* take away a privilege because a child is still learning how to self edit and again, I refuse to punish for a child having his/her own independent feeling, no matter if misguided.

I would say something more like "that is not polite to say to another person in their home. Please apologize for saying something rude." I'm on the fence about car ride home or not. I'm inclined to just go into it right then and there - excuse ourselves to another room for a moment to teach.

I know this is BP and you are frustrated because you busted your exhausted self to get your house in tiptop shape, so a crack like that must push a button.

wow. i am pretty sure you just told me that my house is, indeed, disgusting. i am kinda hurt.

for the record, i put the dogs out before i started cleaning, so the fur and dirt had all been cleaned and they had not returned to "be disgusting" in the house. also FTR, the mom had asked the child to do several things (come downstairs, fetch shoes, put shoes on...) over and over and over again and the child was not following directions. the mom also told the child that she would lose her opportunity to shop for toys that night with christmas money if she continued to refuse to follow directions. she then refused to sit down to get her shoes on because the floor was "wet" and then went on about how disgusting everything was. my floor was not wet. it was freshly vacuumed. so at least the "wet" issue was false. so after 5 minutes of talking back to her mother and refusing to follow simple and reasonble directions and after a threat to take a priveledge if any more poor behavior continued, yes, i do think it was time to take the priveledge away for "having independent thoughts." i think saying, "it smells like dogs and i don't like it" is independent. going on a tirade because mom asked you do things and you don't want to is misbehavior. there is also a big difference between messy and disgusting, even though, as this point, the house wasn't even messy (except the sewing room, where i am constantly working.)

sorry. i don't know why i feel the need to justify, but i do.

[lizajane]

I can tell you're very upset and understandably so, but you made the right choice in not laying into a 5 year old about how DH and you pay for the house and she's not allowed to talk to you like that in it.

feeling defensive now...

i do not "lay into" other people's children. but i do explain to them that it is not acceptable to hurt other's feelings in my house. in the same way, when a friend turns her back on my child and refuses to speak to him when she comes to a playdate, i tell her that she is hurting schuyler's feelings and we don't allow such behavior on our house. (this is an intentional thing a certain kid does to bait other children.)

[KBecks]

It sounds like the girl may be going through some sort of neat freak phase, evidenced by the weird doorknob issues.

That said, it was still rude! I think my response would be something like, this is my house and I'm hurt that you called it disgusting. I enjoy living here and if you can't say anything nice please don't hurt my feelings. Of course, I would not have been able to put that thought together when hurt! :)

I'm sure your house is fine. I agree that kids pick up on words like disgusting. I was very disappointed when Alek learned "gross" from hearing my SIL say "that's gross" she also says "that's disgusting" a lot. I prefer not to have kids use language like that, and try not to use those terms myself lightly -- I save them only for when it's absolutely appropriate, so I really hardly ever say disgusting or gross.

[Marisa6826]

I don't know, maybe it's because she's your employee that there's a different kind of social more going on, but my friends and I have a kind of unspoken agreement that we can basically tell each other's kids the way it is.

They have free rein to tell my kids to knock it off if they're doing or saying something wrong/obnoxious/hurtful. And reciprocally, I have no problem telling their kiddos that they need to stop doing or saying dangerous/rude/mean things. Of course we're not talking a major lambasting, but a simple comment or direction will usually suffice at that age.

So far, it's worked for us in both directions.

And Liza, you can be damn sure that if Sophie made a comment like that, it would not gotten only a response of "that's not nice". And the doorknob thing? WTF?!!


BTW, you do know that all of this is an an aside, as your house already sounds a hell of a lot cleaner than mine (since I already surpass you by one dog ;) ).

hugs

-m

[SnuggleBuggles]

[QUOTE=kcandz

I would say something more like "that is not polite to say to another person in their home. Please apologize for saying something rude." I'm on the fence about car ride home or not. I'm inclined to just go into it right then and there - excuse ourselves to another room for a moment to teach.
.[/QUOTE]

That's about what I think I would say too. I would most likely apologize in private to you as well.

If it were my house and a friend/ acquaintance child said that to me I would not have scolded the child at all even if it was a good friend. I probably would have said something like, "I'm sorry you feel that way" if I said anything at all.

I'll step back so this can be your vent. I really was curious what kind of reaction you were expecting though.

Beth

[JoyNChrist]

Aw, (((HUGS))) Liza!

I'll come play at your "disgusting" house any day...we could have a contest to see who has more dog hair on her clothes. (I bet I win, my pekapoo's a mess!) :)

The little girl was definitely rude, but what bugs me more is the mom. I too would have expected more than "that's not nice."

Sorry you had to deal with that...you held your tongue better than I probably would have.

[kcandz]

wow. i am pretty sure you just told me that my house is, indeed, disgusting. i am kinda hurt.

for the record, i put the dogs out before i started cleaning, so the fur and dirt had all been cleaned and they had not returned to "be disgusting" in the house. also FTR, the mom had asked the child to do several things (come downstairs, fetch shoes, put shoes on...) over and over and over again and the child was not following directions. the mom also told the child that she would lose her opportunity to shop for toys that night with christmas money if she continued to refuse to follow directions. she then refused to sit down to get her shoes on because the floor was "wet" and then went on about how disgusting everything was. my floor was not wet. it was freshly vacuumed. so at least the "wet" issue was false. so after 5 minutes of talking back to her mother and refusing to follow simple and reasonble directions and after a threat to take a priveledge if any more poor behavior continued, yes, i do think it was time to take the priveledge away for "having independent thoughts." i think saying, "it smells like dogs and i don't like it" is independent. going on a tirade because mom asked you do things and you don't want to is misbehavior.

I have no opinion about your house. These additional details you describe here are a different situation than the original post. As you say, it sounds like the girl is making stuff up to avoid doing what she is needed to do - put her shoes on. A power struggle using your house as a conduit seems more accurate. And yes, if taking away of a privilege is offered it should be followed through, or else the language is as empty as "thats not nice" comment.

We will have to agree to disagree on the independent thoughts front. That you put the phrase in quotes says to me that you don't have much belief in the idea. It makes me sad you have such disregard for children as thinking individuals, but we are all different people. And again, a 5 year old IMO is still learning the nuances of language, and maybe her saying "this is disgusting" IS her way of saying "it smells like dogs and i don't like it", she just isn't sophisticated enough to be that specific. Or maybe she is - clearly I don't know this child, only the 5 year olds in my child's environment.

[KBecks]

i think i will just deliver things to her from now on. (she came today to pick up her part of a shared fabric wholesale order.)

I think this is a nice thing of you to do for your employee and her child. If the child feels uncomfortable in your home, then it's nice to accommodate that when you can. I wouldn't worry though if the pair do need to come to your house again, people sometimes have to go places they don't like and that's part of life.

It's OK to me if a child feels a place is disgusting or dirty, but where it becomes rude is when those feelings are said directly to the homeowner. It's not that her feelings are wrong, but that she handled them inappropriately.

It's kind of like a child can say I hate you and freely express that feeling, but they should know the consequence is that it hurts feelings and that it's a hurtful thing to say.

It's up to the daughter's mom now to teach her to act more politely.
That's not nice was certainly a weak response from the mom, but she may also have been embarassed and shocked. Anyway, please don't feel this is a huge deal, the scenario keeps running through my head that she may have just learned about how to avoid cold/flu season by not touching things, etc. etc. or may be feeling germophobic.

I'm sure your house is fine and probably better than what we're used to here. :) Take care and don't let it get you down for too long.

Hugs,
Karen

[lizajane]

It makes me sad you have such disregard for children as thinking individuals, but we are all different people. And again, a 5 year old IMO is still learning the nuances of language, and maybe her saying "this is disgusting" IS her way of saying "it smells like dogs and i don't like it", she just isn't sophisticated enough to be that specific. Or maybe she is - clearly I don't know this child, only the 5 year olds in my child's environment.

ok, that i take personally. i have GREAT regard for children as thinking individuals. i could list several witnesses who can attest to that fact right here on the boards. i always speak to my children as PEOPLE and not as "kids" because that is what they are are they deserve the same respect as another other person. i listen intently to what they have to say and recognize their thoughts and feelings with the same respect as another other human being. i encourage independent thinking from my own children and other children who are important to me. (whose parents are interested in my views and parenting style shared with their children.) my sons are both serious thinkers and have some pretty incredible ideas, if i may say so myself as their mother. i NEVER said that this child had no right to her opinion or that she wasn't capable of forming one. i put the phrase in quotes to 1) indicate that i was responding to your remark and 2) to say that i don't think this situation was about this child's opinion. i think it was about disrespect to both her mother and another adult, me. i would be just as upset if she showed that disrespect to another child. we are all people. she did not share her opinion. she screamed it at her mother in my presence while elaborating on her opinion with details that were false. "the whole house is wet," for example. i have had another child tell me more than once that my house spelled weird. she doesn't have dogs, either. i asked her if it smelled like dogs, and she said yes. that is an opinion that i respected and recognized. and we do constantly worry about the dog smell, which is why we ripped up the carpet and have air filters all over. i have had a child say that my car is messy. yes, it is. i own that remark because it couldn't be more true. but these children didn't scream it at me with anger and disgust and they were not scolded for their opinions. i don't think children should scream at adults period and that deserves a reprimand in itself. i don't believe adults should scream at children and because i am imperfect, if i do raise my voice with my children, i apologzie to them for doing so and explain that i was angry but i didn't show it appropriately.

please don't tell me what i think. or what i "disregard." you really don't know me at all. i have a great many faults and i own up to them all. but having disregard for children and their ideas is NOT one of them.

[KBecks]

we do constantly worry about the dog smell, which is why we ripped up the carpet and have air filters all over.

If you don't mind scented products, the oil room scenter things are wonderful. I was at a smokers house once and it smelled great from them... I think it's like Glade plug in oil.

I have a wonderful cat whom I love very much except for his markings, and so I use the Glade things now and then and they make the place smell great.

Not that you need to change anything just because of what your young guest said!!!

[Jenn98]

It makes me sad you have such disregard for children as thinking individuals...

Whoa there, that was a little uncalled for imho. This is the Bitching forum after all and Liza is entitled to vent her frustrations here without judgement. Offering a difference of opinion is fine, but insulting someone is not.

[Ceepa]

feeling defensive now...

i do not "lay into" other people's children. but i do explain to them that it is not acceptable to hurt other's feelings in my house. in the same way, when a friend turns her back on my child and refuses to speak to him when she comes to a playdate, i tell her that she is hurting schuyler's feelings and we don't allow such behavior on our house. (this is an intentional thing a certain kid does to bait other children.)

I'm not going to criticize the choices you make inside your own home I'm just offering my own viewpoint: If my employer sidestepped me, as the parent, and directly addressed my 5-year-old, scolding her that she was not allowed to say something, I would not react to that kindly.

That was my only point.

[kijip]

Let's back up here for a minute. Kids have their own thoughts and feelings but that in no way entitles them to share them with all those around them. Based on the 4 and 5 year olds that I know, I have to say that a 5 year old is old enough in my book to have learned or be quickly learning what is mean and not appropriate to voice out loud in public. Would I reprimand a child in my house who said that? Not likely. But I would expect the parent and the child to apologize and expect the parent to be correct her child. It is not lacking respect for my son to not allow him to run around hurting people's feelings. It is lacking in respect to my friends and family if I teach him it is ok to say mean and hurtful things by not correcting him when he does. My mother's apartment is often a disaster but Toby knows full well that Grandma's feelings come before his need to voice it. On top of that, she needs to learn that everyone has a different standard and custom for how they keep house.

[lizajane]

I'm not going to criticize the choices you make inside your own home I'm just offering my own viewpoint: If my employer sidestepped me, as the parent, and directly addressed my 5-year-old, scolding her that she was not allowed to say something, I would not react to that kindly.

That was my only point.

i totally understand. it does not bother me when others correct my child because i know sometimes i miss things. but i totally respect that others would be offended if her child was corrected. fwiw, the other example of the child hurting my child's feelings happens when the other mom is NOT present and i am responsible for her child. as for this child, her mother does not reprimand her. and at some point, i just can't stand to watch her hurt my child's feelings or run around my house screaming, so i choose to reprimand her extremely gently. (ex: please use your indoor voice so we won't wake up dylan during his nap.) this case was just special because she offended ME and not my child. so that is why i sounded "meaner" in my unsaid, but considered, remark. it was just more personal. which is why you are right to say that nothing is better than the wrong thing.

[Ceepa]

Your post has opened a good discussion about how we as parents need to remember that our job isn't just to make sure our kids are fed, clothed, learning their letters/shapes but that we help them learn respect, compassion, empathy, social functioning.

So though this has been a bumpy thread, it's been a valuable one. Many times BBB parents start me evaluating my position on issues and I'm grateful for the opportunity to improve my "technique." :)

[JoyNChrist]

We will have to agree to disagree on the independent thoughts front. That you put the phrase in quotes says to me that you don't have much belief in the idea. It makes me sad you have such disregard for children as thinking individuals, but we are all different people.

A little uncalled for, IMO. I don't think anyone who "knows" Liza from spending time on these boards would think that she has any sort of disregard for children in any manner. And again, this is the Bitching Post and she should be allowed to complain about things without it being seen as some sort of reflection on her overall character or parenting style.


And again, a 5 year old IMO is still learning the nuances of language, and maybe her saying "this is disgusting" IS her way of saying "it smells like dogs and i don't like it", she just isn't sophisticated enough to be that specific. Or maybe she is - clearly I don't know this child, only the 5 year olds in my child's environment.

But the thing is, once you give a child the right to assert herself in front of adults as a thinking individual, she should be held to the same rules of respect and manners that they are (like once you start eating at the adult table, you better have good table manners). I'm not talking about what you do in your own home. I'm talking about what happens when you're with company or friends or family. If you teach your child that it's okay to assert herself and give her opinion in these types of situations, she darn sure better have a decent filter in place (or at least be quickly learning). And when she does mess up (because kids do), you as the parent need to address the situation properly (which I don't think the simple "that's not nice" did). Maybe this mom is trying to teach her child what is and is not appropriate, but from Liza's further explanation of the situation, I doubt it. I for one would have no problem had Liza chosen to reprimand the child. The bottom line is the kid did something rude. She's never going to learn that there are some things you just don't say unless she's reprimanded when it happens (and from the sound of things I doubt her mom's half-hearted lesson stuck).

JMHO :)

ETA - Whether or not Liza would have been right to reprimand the child isn't really the issue I'm trying to address. (For me, it would have been fine, but I think it kind of depends on your own temperament and social circle). What I'm trying to say is that I don't think expecting a child to behave decently and show good manners is denying them their rights as a thinking individual. Just because you think something doesn't mean that you need to (or should) say it. That's something that kids really do need to learn.

[kcandz]

i put the phrase in quotes to 1) indicate that i was responding to your remark and 2) to say that i don't think this situation was about this child's opinion.

We can only make interpretations based on what we read. You have taken great care to clarify your position.

[bubbaray]

Wow, Liza, I've been stalking this thread without a chance to post for a couple of days. I'm pretty shocked at some of the replies.

I'll just say, you are invited to my house for a playdate ANY day. We have more than enough dog hair to share....

FTR, I would be completely mortified if either of my children said that to anyone (including me!). I believe even young children can learn proper manners and to be polite.

The other thing is, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree -- the child probably learned this attitude from her mother.... Ugh.

[hellokitty]

I would have been upset too, esp at the lack of effort on your friend's part to at least TRY to explain to her dd that what she said was not only rude, but very hurtful. Oh, and the total lack of apology, to me that says a lot! I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but has the thought ever occurred to you that *maybe* your friend tells her 5 yr old that your house is disgusting and the 5 yr old is basically repeating what she hears at home? That was the first thing that came to mind when I read about your situation.

I had a friend who had a bad habit of saying horrible things about other ppl to her son (and to anyone who will listen), like she would make rude remarks about ppl's houses that she thought were messy or were poorly decorated or refer to one of the neighbors as, "crazy x" (even though that neighbor is not crazy, she's just a lonely widow) to her child, enough that basically her child referred to the lady as, "crazy x" as well when talking about her. She would never say these things to the person's face, BUT she definitely had no problems talking behind his/her back, kwim? My DH and I used to joke that some day it was all going to come back and bite her in the butt big time(she moved earlier in the yr, so no longer lives in the area, so we never got to see that happen, but we were pretty sure that it would all catch up with her pretty soon), b/c her kid would repeat it to the wrong person some day and tick someone off big time. I am not trying to suggest that your friend is not really as close of a friend as you think she is, but I have found through several experiences that some women can be extremely catty (and passive aggressive) and they talk sh*t about other women behind their backs, even women that are supposed to be their friends. I've been burned a few times by women like that before that I thought were my friends.

A five yr old doesn't realize that it's not ok to repeat that sort of thing, esp if they hear their own mother talk about that kind of thing all the time at home, she probably perceives it as ok. It doesn't make what that little girl did ok, but if something like that would have happened to me, I would seriously wonder if my friend had made some negative remarks about my house to her kids/DH before, to make her dd go off on a rant like that at your house and act like it was not a big deal. I think it says a lot that your friend did not even come to your defense when her dd was making those remarks... maybe deep down inside she agreed with her dd that your house is, "disgusting" so her lack of effort to correct/teach her dd, may have been her own passive aggressive way of agreeing with her dd's rude statements.

FWIW, that, "friend" I mentioned above always kept her house meticulous. Whenever she came to my house, I could just feel her judging my housekeeping/decorating skills. That was one reason why I did not like to have playdates at my house with her, since I just had a sick feeling that she probably went home and told her DH, "M's house is so gross, she uses cloth diapers, and she didn't clean her windows, I b/c they are all smudged up from the kids' handprints, etc.." I heard her bad mouth enough ppl to know that she probably bad mouthed me behind my back too.

[lisams]

See, that is way too harsh a response IMO. In that girl's view, your house was disgusting. You said yourself she doesn't like your dogs. Just because she is 5 doesn't mean she isn't entitled to her opinions. However, she is not entitled to share them with the world when they are offensive. My response would have been more of a mix of the two. "that isn't nice" doesn't teach much. But 1)refuting the remark is telling your child her impressions aren't valid. I won't do that. 2) yes I would request an apology. I would *not* take away a privilege because a child is still learning how to self edit and again, I refuse to punish for a child having his/her own independent feeling, no matter if misguided.

I would say something more like "that is not polite to say to another person in their home. Please apologize for saying something rude." I'm on the fence about car ride home or not. I'm inclined to just go into it right then and there - excuse ourselves to another room for a moment to teach.

I know this is BP and you are frustrated because you busted your exhausted self to get your house in tiptop shape, so a crack like that must push a button.

A little off topic, but reminded me of this -

I recently took a class called "Conscious Discipline" (it's a program that Becky Bailey developed) that was sponsored by DD's preschool. The instructor said that until about 5 or 6 children do not have that voice in their heads that we do. For instance, when you're over at someone's for dinner in your mind you might be saying "this ham has an interesting taste...it sure was nice of her to make this meal...I wonder if there's a piece of bread stuck in my tooth...oh goodness DD isn't eating the ham I sure hope she remembers her manners we talked about before coming over". We have the ability to talk in our mind and then say something like "It was so thoughtful of you to have us over for dinner, thank you." Young children think in pictures not in words, so they often say exactly what we might say in our mind without editing it to make it socially acceptable. It's one of the reasons children talk so much while they're playing alone - something I never knew until I took this class! I'm not saying that we shouldn't teach our children, but sometimes they say something that really isn't nice, it happens, and sometimes even when you've been working really hard with your child it still happens. Also, kids start experimenting with words - especially ones with a strong emphasis like "hate", "gross", "disgusting", "angry", etc. I've seen kids say "I'm so angry at you mom, I hate you." It doesn't mean they really hate mom - they're experimenting with what control they have over their language. They're looking for that reaction to see just where those boundaries are. One time when we were hosting playgroup, a little boy said, "What is that stinky smell?" I happened to have a vanilla tart on the tart warmer and to him it was different.

Not trying to excuse what the 5 year old said at all, it was most definitely a teachable moment, and ALL of us will have (or do have) 5 year olds who will say something embarassing that we wish they hadn't said. It's up to the adults to help the child understand why it isn't OK. Hopefully this mother did talk with her child later. And hopefully she isn't role modeling that kind of behavior at home, but it sounds like it's very well possible.

Hopefully the mom was just so embarassed that she didn't know what to say at the time. I've been caught off gaurd and said some pretty lame things that I later regret. It's easy for us to think through the situation and decide what we would say, but in that split moment we don't always really know what to do or say.

Now the whole doorknob thing is just so strange! What was that about? Anywho, this thread reminded me of that class I took and thought I'd share. Hoping the mother later appologizes or better yet her daughter does for saying such hurtful things.

[chlobo]

I'll preface this by saying it was definitely a rude remark & the mom probably should have apologized more.

That said, could something else have been going on with the kid? One day last year a group of moms/kids got together right after preschool for lunch/play on a Friday. I had a prior commitment so asked someone else to pick up DD & bring her over. When I arrived about 30 min. later I was told that my DD had told the homeowner that her house was dirty & she wanted to leave. Needless to say I was mortified & I apologized.

I did talk to DD but not a lot. It was obvious from her demeanor that she was tired/not feeling well and that any type of discipline would have gone over really poorly. We left shortly after I got there and DD fell asleep on the way home (5 min.) and woke with a fever.

Not condoning the behavior but it might have been pointless to engage in discipline/explaining/apologizing if the girl were "in a bad place". Of course, the mother then should have apologized (either then or later) and explained the situation.

[Melanie]

If my employer sidestepped me, as the parent, and directly addressed my 5-year-old, scolding her that she was not allowed to say something, I would not react to that kindly.

ITA. I would be livid if anyone scolded my child other than grandparents or perhaps another parent I am very close with IF I was not there to do it myself. I think on one had there is the need to teach a child what is right or wrong and step in when it's a child you care about learning such a thing, another if you just want to 'punish' them. I am not saying which was your intention, just clarifying my own POV.


I can tell you're very upset and understandably so, but you made the right choice in not laying into a 5 year old about how DH and you pay for the house and she's not allowed to talk to you like that in it.

ITA, I think by ignoring it you did the right thing. It's her mother's job to teach her manners and I'm sure her mother was as shocked and embarrassed as you were (see post about her coaxing her into opening door to leave!). I'm sure your house is not disgusting, it sounds like this little girl may be having some kind of phase about thigns like that. I actually went through one myself. Someone must have told me about germs b/c I went running to wash my hands whenever I touched *anything.* I think I was 4 or 5 yo.



I would say something more like "that is not polite to say to another person in their home. Please apologize for saying something rude." I'm on the fence about car ride home or not. I'm inclined to just go into it right then and there - excuse ourselves to another room for a moment to teach.

ITA. And again, Liza, don't take what a 5 yo said to heart. I'm sure your house was fine. Kids are fickle. It is not as though an adult said it was disgusting. I REALLY think you did the right thing in not commenting b/c she didn't say it to you. If she had said it to you, then of course it would have warranted a polite and appropriate response from you (perhaps "I'm so sorry you feel that way. I think it's very clean and worked hard to get it ready for your visit, today" or the like).

I'm also wondering if perhaps she didn't even want to come over (see your comment reg. dogs), but her mom insisted and this was her clever little 5 yo GIRL (remember, they are SOOO much different than our boys at this age) way of making sure one way or another she didn't have to go back.

[ShanaMama]

Just wanted to add my opinion now that I've been reading this thread for a couple of days. The mom was obviously being tested and may have been unsure of how strongly to assert herself towards her daughter's general misbehavior. The comment was clearly out of line, but seems like the little girl was pushing her limits even before commenting about your house.
Several times I have found myself in a situation where I would react one way to DD in private but am not confident enough to be as firm (or as flexible) in public. Kinda like afraid the other mom is going to judge my parenting/ discipline skills, so how do I handle this the way I want to and the way that will be viewed as acceptable as well.
That being said DD is only 2.5 and I constantly ask myself whether to let this go or make an issue out of it. Depending on all the other factors (how the day has been, how tired/ hungry DD is, how tired I am) I might be less emphatic in a public forum than in private. Usually this would be because I don't have the strength to follow through so therefore don't want to threaten.
I wonder if this might have been the situation with your employee. She was embarrassed about her daughter misbehaving and was on shaky ground about how best to assert her authority. Then came the comment which would definitely have thrown me for a loop.
Just throwing out another idea. I know not everyone parents the way I do... so I could be totally off the mark.

ETA- Just wanted to clarify what I mean by discipline being different in public. By nature of being out, consequences are different. If DD was really misbehaving/ not listening I would threaten to leave the store. But I have to be prepared to follow through. If I really wanted to get my shopping done or just didn't have strength to get into it, I might try to redirect and distract over and over again. To an onlooker I might appear as a wuss of a mother who doesn't take a stand, but to me, my stand is not to make a huge issue. If I haven't been firm about things from the first, I sometimes find it hard to take a firm stand about an issue that might come up- and DD might have a harder time taking me seriously if the tone was lighter all along. (Just want to go into extra detail because rereading my post it kinda sounded like I slap her around at home but not in public! Um, no! )

[rgors]

I just want to say that this thread has me terrified of when my DD gets older and verbal. I can practically guarantee that she will say something inappropriate to someone in a public forum at some point in time. I only hope that I come up with the a parenting response to my DD at that point in time that passes the judge and jury of my peer mamas.

To the OP: the child's comment was wrong. The mama's response was certainly insufficient. Perhaps she was just stunned? I know I am guilty of replaying past scenarios in my head over and over and wishing I had that perfect response when on the spot. But regardless, I do think you acted absolutely appropriately by simply ignoring the comment. Providing a parenting correction to a child *when her parent is right there* seems an insult to that parent. The issue would only escalate from there and I am pretty sure that would be to no one's advantage.

[o_mom]

Oh Liza, I'm sure your house is ten times neater than ours and we only have one dog. It sounds like this little girl was being a real pill. The mom certainly should have apologized for her and I hope that there was some consequence later.

DS1 is is 4.5, but I'm not sure that he knows not to say something about a mess at someone's home. Our house is certainly no place of order, so a messy house doesn't strike him as odd which is why it has probably never come up. ;) He does have a hard time understanding that his actions hurt other people when they are actual physical actions that hurt (hitting, etc.) so the concept of someone's feelings being hurt by what he said would probably go right by him. If he did say something like this I would certainly apologize all over the place and give him the hairy eyeball to let him know that there would be a discussion about it later. I would encourage him to apologize, but really there is no way to force a child to apologize if they are set against it.

[himom]

From everything you have said (particularly in your later post about the shoes, etc) it sounds to me like she is a spoiled child whose mother allows her to do anything she wants. Dropping things off for them in the future is probably a wise solution since you probably won't want this child in your house anyway, given the kinds of things she is allowed to get away with.

Expressing an opinion is one thing, but at that age they are old enough to understand feelings, apologies, and basic politeness. Just after you started this thread my 5 year old told one of my friends that her car was messy. He was immediately required to apologize to her and I later had a talk with him about being rude. Oddly enough, our car is a disaster and her car just had some dirt and mud and a few leaves, which was no surprise considering the wind and rain that day. I don't know if DS meant it as a random observation, as a criticism, or if he was just talking. Probably he was just saying it was muddy without meaning anything bad by it. But it doesn't matter. When someone says something mean, intentional or not, they need to apologize. Therefore he was required to apologize, and we got on with our day.

Same goes for anything. For instance, the other day I turned around too fast and accidentally smacked my husband hard in the arm with our desk chair. I didn't do it on purpose, I wasn't trying to hurt him, etc, but it did leave a red mark and probably stung for a few seconds. Since it was just a natural move on my part, and since I was only turning around the way nature intends for me to turn, and since I didn't do it on purpose, well then....I shouldn't have to apologize, right? Cause it might hurt my self-esteem to be forced to apologize for standing and turning. I might not ever be able to stand and turn again. Or I might be more cautious about standing and turning in the future, slowing down my ability to stand.

Ridiculous, right? So what if it was an accident? Since I hurt him, however slightly, I apologized. And yes, after that, I was more careful about the way I turn and stand with the chair. It's a learning experience. I think parents who refuse to show their children that they have done something wrong or hurtful and who refuse to allow their children to accept the consequences of their wrong or hurtful acts are doing their kids a great disservice. Not to mention those of us who have to put up with kids who think the world revolves around them. :32:

So...to sum up, I'm sorry that happened to you and I agree her mother should have done more. Common courtesy!

[elaineandmichaelsmommy]

wow. I just got done ready everyone's responses and they do seem to run the gamut. Liza-I was wondering what time of the day it was when they came over? I don't mean to make excuses for poor manners but sounds like the kid just wasn't doing well that day in general. Is it possible that the child hadn't had enough sleep? DD tends to get combative and disobedient when she's sleep deprived,I'm wondering if this little girl might have had a similar problem.

[ha98ed14]

I can't tell how spoiled the girl might be from one exchange, but ITA with Himom that WAY too many parents do not let their kids really see or feel the depth of the hurt they inflict on others, children or adults. Its like the parent is afraid that if the child knows they really hurt another person, it might forever damage their self-esteem. I think understanding that how you act and what you say can and does affect the people around you in an important lesson, and a 2 second apology that most kids get away with:

Mom, "Say you're sorry for hurting Miss Liza's feelings."
Child, "Sorry."

IS SO LAME! They should have to articulate WHAT they did and recognize that it hurt:

Mom, "Say you're sorry for hurting Miss Liza's feelings."
Child, "I'm sorry I was rude to you and that I hurt your feelings."

I think kids get off way too easy with the 2 second sorry...

[maestramommy]

This has been a most interesting thread, as the pp said, the reponses have run a full spectrum. Liza, I'm so sorry that girl hurt your feelings. If one of my girls said that I would've been totally mortified that beyond telling her "that is not nice!" and apologizing myself, I don't know what else I'd do. I'd probably have a private conversation with her about it at home.

:hug: I'm sure your home is perfectly fine. Perfectly lived in. :D