How to eliminate nighttime feedings?

[juliasdad]

Julia is now 5-1/2 months, 17+ lbs (90%). We know she can go all night without feeding. The question is, how to get her to do this?

Currently (and her nights have become pretty regular), she will go down in her crib at 9pm. From this time, she will start fussing every 1.5 hours or so, requiring one of us to "comfort" her back to sleep; though we try to hold off as long as we can, the fussing always escalates into crying. And at the 3am wakening, she won't go back down without being fed (if we try, she might fall back to sleep but will then wake again in 5-10 minutes; lather, rinse, repeat). After the feeding, she'll fuss in another couple of hours.

The fussing issue we'll try to tackle separately. The main question that I have here is about the 3am feeding. Do we continue it as long as she seems to demand it? If not, how to wean her off of it? I'm thinking that giving her water in a bottle might be a stepping stone; other ideas?

Thanks,

-dan

[bnme]

I don't have much experience since my little one is only 6 weeks -but how about a pacifier, if you are not opposed to them.

I just realized that at some of my DS's night wakings he is not hungry - giving him the binki may send him back to sleep another hour (he is still feeding between 2 and 3 hours with one 4-5 hour stretch at night).

[Karenn]

Some people say that babies will drop feedings on their own. That hasn't seemed to be the case with Colin. It's so hard to know though, because the last thing you want to do is not feed your baby if he/she IS hungry!

One thing that worked for Colin was to gradually reduce the length of the feedings. The first night I timed how long he nursed. Then, each night, I shortened his nursing time by one minute. We got to the point where he was only nursing for one minute total, and then he would still happily go back to sleep and sleep for 3-4 more hours. Once we got to that point, I was more confident that he wasn't hungry, so instead of feeding him at the 3am wake up, I would just go and hold him, and put him down again. Then after a few days I let him fuss and it only took him 5-15 minutes to get back to sleep.

If Julia takes a bottle, I've heard you can gradually add more water, and less formula. Again, this helps you get to the point where you can be confident that she's not needing the nutrition of the formula in the middle of the night.

They say that with either of these methods, many babies will just stop waking on their own because it's not worth the effort to get up for no food. Of course, that wasn't true with Colin. :)

[mamahill]

As much as I'd like to have a real answer for your question, I've found that Ainsleigh is in charge. I think the other posters have valid points, but Ainsleigh never took a pacifier, so that was out. Also, she never took a bottle, so diluting the milk wasn't an option.

It's hard because most nights I didn't have the energy to listen to her fuss. We would all go back to sleep sooner if I just went in and fed her. Sometimes it's easier to give in! It's interesting, because some nights she would (and still does) sleep through the night, only to have a couple nights where she'll wake up.

That being said, since you've begun solids, have you considered upping the amount? I found that if I breastfed Ainsleigh about an hour before her cereal, she wouldn't eat much, and then would bf before going down, only to wake up again at night. Instead of keeping her on a 3-hour bf schedule and sandwiching a cereal in there, I substituted cereal for one of the feedings. Her consumption increased a lot. Plus, my supply was less in the evening, so this allowed me to "stockpile" for her last feeding. She would eat almost 1/2 cup of mixed cereal along with a veggie some nights! And those nights she'd eat a lot, she slept through. I don't know if this matters, but I mix formula with the cereal (she won't take it any other way!).

Also, how is she napping during the day? It floors me how right-on Weissbluth is with Ainsleigh (I know his methods don't work for everyone, but in our house, he's a genius - thanks Beth!). If she has good naps during the day, she generally sleeps better at night. Also, rather than establish a bedtime routine for just at night, I do almost the same things for her nap (feed her in the quiet of her room, sing to her, put her down - bath at night). This has made her more likely to go down in a good mood (or even already asleep).

Lastly (have I said enough yet?!), does she have a lovie? Many here have talked about a blanket or stuffed animal or something that can serve as a comfort in the crib. For us, it's a really soft Hello Kitty, or a bunny lovie (w/small blanket attached) made by Carters. If Ainsleigh wakes up, she sometimes sees it, talks to it for a little bit, and then falls back asleep. Not always (grrr - lol), but sometimes.

I don't know if any of these will be helpful, but it is what has worked for us. Hope this helps in some way, and that you and DW can get a full night's rest soon!

[juliasdad]

Thanks, all!

First, she's already using a pacifier; it's just about the only way she'll go down. Though this week, we've started taking the pacifier away after she's fallen asleep, or even while she's "almost" asleep, so that she stops getting used to sleeping with it constantly.

On napping, yes, we've tried to make sure that she gets plenty of nap time, on a regular basis (and I agree, it does help). We limit her length of awake time to 3 hours at a stretch max, and let her decide on length of nap herself. We've also started putting her in the crib while still awake for both naps and nighttime; that, along with sticking to a solid evening routine, has done wonders in getting us to where we are today. Which is still far from perfect, but a lot better than a month ago!

We've talked about upping the amount of her evening cereal; but I've read so many things from "pros" that claim that there's no link between solids and sleeping. But as in anything else, it seems as if the answer you want is out there as long as you read the right place. BTW, when people say "once you get up to 1/4 cup of cereal, you can add a 2nd meal to the day", etc., are they talking about the wet mixture, or dry cereal amounts? When you say 1/2 cup, that sounds like already mixed, no? We're feeding Julia 2T of cereal, but it mixes with 3-4T of expressed BM... not sure if we're feeding her 2T, or something over 1/4 cup.

Lovie- well, she hasn't really taken to one. She's slept with an ultrasoft stuffed duck every night, it's usually against one side of her head, but she doesn't hold it for comfort. We're trying... :-)

-dan

[juliasdad]

I like the idea of systematically reducing the feeding time. Maybe we'll try that, in combination with the other ideas here. Julia does take a bottle (expressed breastmilk); maybe the thing to do is to start going to a bottle exclusively for the night feeding, and that we we can get a good handle on how much she's taking and can control the decrease more precisely (and thin it with water, too).

She's gone an entire night without feeding, but it's been well over a month since. Maybe even two. So we know she *can* do it!

Thanks!!

-dan

[egoldber]

Well, a lot of 5 1/2 month old breastfed babies still need to eat at night. It really depends on your baby. At this age, I would be a little hesitant to remove that feeding. If she still needs it in a few months, then that may be a different story.

The 1/4 cup cereal measurement refers to a dry measurement. So that is 1/4 cup dry cereal and then adding breastmilk/formula to that. It's a fair bit of cereal. And if you are mxiing 2T cereal with 3-4T liquid, that's pretty soupy. I would work on making the cereal pretty thick too, more like mashed potato consistency.

HTH,

[mamahill]

When I said 1/2 cup, I did mean mixed (including the formula). And Ainsleigh doesn't like hers thin. Also, once I realized how much cereal she was actually eating, I introduced a second meal. Now that she's at 3 meals a day, she is definitely NOT eating that much in one sitting. Also, I don't know if that corresponded with a growth spurt. But I agree with Beth, at this age she probably doesn't need it so thin.

Also, although in *theory* our system works, it isn't foolproof. Ainsleigh still occasionally wakes up at night (last night!) and I feed her. Again, more because it's more convenient for me (sheepish grin), but also because she is on the small side and I worry about that (she just cleared 16 lbs, 15 oz at 10 1/2 months!).

I agree that everything I read said there was no correspondence to solids and sleeping through the night, but I've also heard about peds suggesting putting a little rice cereal into the baby's bottle before going to sleep at night. Not something we have done (no bottle to take!), but I've heard about it. Plus, I know I've read that formula takes longer to break down than breastmilk, so formula-fed babies can often go longer between meals. It would seem that the cereal would act similarly. All this seemingly conflicting information leads to a lot of head-scratching. Ah well, is parenthood an exercise in head-scratching? LOL. Good luck!

[egoldber]

Peds now only recommend cereal in bottles for babies with reflux. And even this is mildly controversial. Feeding babies solids before they are 5-6 months old does not make them sleep better at night because a) they don't generally have the enzymes needed to properly digest solids and b) solids have fewer calories per ounce than either breastmilk or formula.

But for babies who are ready for solids, adding more solids can help them to feel more full and to sleep longer at night. This isn't true for all babies of course, so your mileage may vary. And for babies up to about 9 months or so, breatsmilk or formula should still be the bulk of their calories.

Not disagreeing with mamhill, just expanding. :)

[mamahill]

Thanks for the insight (the reflux thing rings a bell now) -- if you WERE disagreeing with me, I'd have to thank you since you are by far one of the most informed moms here and I'd feel horrible leading someone astray! ;)

[AngelaS]

It sounds like your baby could easily be sleeping all night long without eating. My theory with my own girls was that once they went two nights without eating, they didn't need to eat again. I just made sure they nursed really well at bedtime. :)

Does your baby put herself to sleep during the day without a fuss? I noticed you said you laid her down awake. So if she's doing that, I'm confused about why she's waking and fussing so much during the night. Is she cold? Is something waking her up?

LOL I'm not much help am I? It sounds like she's sleeping good during the day, so I'm wondering what's causing her to fuss so much during the night

[Rachels]

I think 5.5 months is way too young to nightwean. MOST breastfed babies are still waking to feed at that point. Also, she will be hitting a growth spurt soon, and she'll need to nurse more often to deal with that. Formula-fed babies have an easier time not getting hungry in the middle of the night, but of course there are major tradeoffs in terms of nutrition and antibodies. And a formula-fed baby is NOT a good standard by which to measure a breastfed baby's sleep habits.

I know it's tough. I'm right there with you. But if she is really EATING, she needs to eat. If she wakes and just nibbles a few times, or just needs comfort, that's different, but if she actually sucks and swallows, she needs that milk. Her needs are also likely to change so much over the next few months. If you guys refuse to feed her, she's almost certainly going to be feeling hungry some of the time.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[juliasdad]

We're slowly getting the cereal thicker; I may have off on the measurements as well, since I've stopped actually measuring the liquid. We started off with 1T cereal and 4T milk as recommended for a first feeding, then increased the cereal to about 2T; from there, I've left it at measuring 2T of cereal and then adding enough milk to make it the consistency that we want. And at this point, I add a bit more cereal after the 2T.

-dan

[Momof3Labs]

I agree with Rachel. And with that 6 month growth spurt right around the corner, why not just wait until you clear that before doing anything. Colin was sleeping all night for a while, then he got sick for two weeks and his nursing decreased. He started waking during the night - presumably playing catch-up - as he was getting well. He has kept one nightly feeding (though he does sleep 6pm-6am) and truly seems to need it, plus experts ranging from my ped to my LC to Weissbluth say that it is very common for a bf baby to need that one nighttime feeding up until 8-9 months of age.

[juliasdad]

Thanks, all, for the advice. As usual, we'll collect as much info as possible, explore as many different schools of thought as we can find, and then let our little girl do just exactly as she pleases. :-)

-dan

[akc]

Hi Dan,

My daughter was bottle fed exclusively (i've posted about this on here before) and was also at the top of her weight and height chart, but it isn't apple to apples since your daughter was bf. I don't think that height and weight always corresponds to ability to sleep and every baby is different (meaning - nothing really is apples to apples), but we did have that a.m. feeding for a while. She has always gone to bed much earlier though (we're big Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child book fans) - always down between 7 and 7:30 pm, and between 2 and 3 months-old used to sleep 8 hours and then 4 hours, conveniently landing her feeding at 3-4 a.m. Ick. How ironic to have a 2 month old who sleeps eight hours, but the hours just happen to be early! She dropped the feeding on the night of her 3 month birthday and slept through ever since, so I can only tell you our experience.

We had followed the techniques of the Happiest Baby on the Block book and had the chance to meet the pediatrician, Dr. Karp. He suggested we gradually water down her formula because it was really routine for Maeve. She liked waking up at a certain time and feeling a certain feeling in her tummy, even though she didn't really need the nutrition. (This would especially be true of an older baby because their social skills are so much more developed that the baby also likes the routine of seeing their mommy or daddy at that time!) So, he suggested changing the mix of the feeding gradually - she was drinking 6 oz bottles, so first it was the usual mix, then one extra oz of water and less the equivalent of formula, 2 oz, half, and so on. He said that she would begin to get less satisfaction from the bottle and just decide that it wasn't worth it to get up. After about one week of gradual decrease (we didn't even make it to less than half and half), we didn't hear a peep from her. Slept right through for what had been an 11 hour sleep! She continued to do that and extended it to 12 hours since then. If she occasionally woke up during the middle of the night, we knew she didn't need to eat, so we did pop the binky back in and out she went.

Also, someone mentioned rice cereal in a bottle as well, right? We did that with Maeve when she was first moving to solids on recommendation of our pediatrician here in Baltimore. It was really just for a few days to get her used to the slightly different taste and weed out any allergies without having the spoon/solid feeding transition at the same time. It worked well for that, but we saw no change in her sleep habits. Technically, she may have been getting extra calories, but full feels like full and she didn't sleep any differently. If you do try it, make sure you have a larger-sized nipple on the bottle or take a pin and expand one you have. The rice cereal is very fine but still clogs the hole (we have avent bottles / nipples) making it a frustrating experience as you can imagine!

My only thought would be that if your daughter could make it through, she may be expending extra energy with the little fuss bursts that she has earlier in the evenings? I don't know. It seems more like the routine experience that Dr. Karp talked about, so maybe it would help to try to vary that routine with some of the ideas mentioned here.

The other thing which is no consolation - and I am completely prepared for you to tell me to shove it b/c it's always nice to say when you aren't living it - but, as soon as you don't have that 3 am feeding anymore, you will miss it. I hated the bleary eyed feeling in the middle of the night and worse in the morning, but now I do wish I could sometimes have her all to myself at 3 am. I NEVER snuck in to watch her when she was a newborn - just never felt the need even though she was in her room in her crib from day 3, but do sometimes now because she sleeps for 12 hours and I wish I could have just a few more of those quiet moments! I know, garbage, but true! :)

Hope this helps -
Alexa

[juliasdad]

Hi, Alexa-

>We had followed the techniques of the Happiest Baby on the
>Block book and had the chance to meet the pediatrician, Dr.
>Karp. He suggested we gradually water down her formula

Maybe I need to go back and revisit this book. We generally
liked its approach and used the 5 S's early on; but as for
sleep recommendations, I don't recall there being much meat
in the book (with the exception of the "swaddle longer"
advice, and Julia no longer benefits from it, nor does she
tolerate it well). I do like the idea of "watering down"
the nighttime meal, and I think we're going to give that
a try by using bottle-fed EBM instead of breast for her 3am
feeding. Actually, maybe just the act of giving her a bottle
rather than breast will help reduce the social attachment
aspect...

>Also, someone mentioned rice cereal in a bottle as well,
>right?

We won't put cereal in a bottle. Just our own personal
philosophy, but I really can't see any benefit to doing so.

>The other thing which is no consolation - and I am
>completely prepared for you to tell me to shove

Of course not! This board is great *because* of all the
varied advice and experience one can draw from!

> - but, as soon
>as you don't have that 3 am feeding anymore, you will miss
>it. I hated the bleary eyed feeling in the middle of the
>night and worse in the morning, but now I do wish I could
>sometimes have her all to myself at 3 am.

DW has already commented on how ambivalent she feels about
the eventual loss of that feeding. Makes perfect sense
to me; it's the dead of night, and the only thing that exists
in the world at that time is her nurturing bond with baby.
And I'm guessing that it's the one feeding time where baby
is just textbook-perfect all-need-and-love, compared to the
somewhat distracted daytime feedings. So, yeah, I think
we understand that we (really, DW) will miss it.

Thanks!

-dan