good tips/books about getting baby to sleep?

[wendmatt]

Any one have any good suggestions (or books) about getting baby to sleep. My 6mth dd has started to not go to sleep! I've been nursing her to sleep and now I see why I was always told not to! It always worked so I continued to do it, now I'm suffering the consequences! She'll go off to sleep, wake up 30 mins later, maybe I'll be able to pat her on the yummy and soothe her off to sleep again. If I can't she wails and won't stop. Sometimes nursing helps and sometimes it doesn't. It's not normal crying, more like upset shouting. I'm going nuts and almost crying as much. She doesn't quiet when I pick her up and shouts louder if dh picks her up.
Help!

[friedmana1]

I know that you are going to think that I am a terrible mommy, BUT I have a seven month old nursing baby, that has slept through the night since she was ten weeks old.

I am also a pediatrician, and have studied about infant sleeping habits. Your daughter has a sleep association - your breast - and won't go to sleep without it. You need to let her learn to put herself to sleep. This probably will entail some screaming on her part (even the upset crying) for a few nights before she learns to settle herself. Try looking at Ferber's book, or one by marc weissbluth. The other theory out there is to teach them bed-time techniques and use the "no cry" method - ie book by tracy hogg - secrets fo baby whisperer).

Good luck!

[AngelaS]

I agree, with this poster. I too had heard the horrors of nursing babies to sleep, so I didn't do it. Sorry to hear you're having trouble. Now might be a good time to introduce a small blankie/lovey or stuffed toy for baby to hold while she nurses. Then when you lay her in her bed, she'll have her lovey, not you.

[mcmorfit]

You could look into "The No Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley, she has different sections on how to wean the baby from whatever sleep association they have.

[egoldber]

I do agree about trying a lovey. But is it possible your baby is teething? If so, then she may be nursing for comfort and pain relief. And six months is still very young for self soothing. Some babies seem to get the knack of it more easily. I do like the Weissbluth book myself for lots of good info about infant sleep needs, but when your baby is sick or teething, those rules go ou the window!

HTH,

[Rachels]

Don't be so hard on yourself! It's okay to nurse babies to sleep, and it's also possible to break that association without leaving them alone and screaming! It's easy for people to pass judgment on you, but you sound like a loving mom who takes good care of her child. Also, it's pretty normal for babies this age to start waking a lot more. Same thing around nine months. They're starting to really notice their surroundings, and they don't want to miss anything! They also tend to want to practice whatever developmental milestone they're working on, and teething kicks in and wreaks havoc with sleep. It gets better! Trust your parenting. It's not your fault.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[ginalc]

"Sleeping Through the Night" by Jodi Mindell.

This book helped me regain some control of my life when my DD stopped sleeping between the hours of midnight and 5 a.m. I highly recommend it!

gina, mom to 3
BFing for 4 yrs and counting :)

[lukkykatt]

You don't need at all to be so hard on yourself! You have a loving relationship with your daughter.

Our ped always said to start the sleep training at 4 months, and I never listened - I thought it was way too young. So, there are plenty of people doing exactly what you do!

I did go through something similar with DS when he was about the same age. Our ped said that usually if you pick your baby up and they don't settle down, it can mean that they are in pain. So possibly it could be teething, or something else that you could ask about. If it is uncontrollable "pain" crying, I usually give a dose of Tylenol to see if that will make DS more somfortable, but I am no expert, so you may want to talk to the Dr. first.

Having said that, I have read 3 books on sleep: Ferber, Mindell and Weissbluth. Of the 3, it was Weissbluth's methods that I most agreed with, and they worked for both my children. When the time is right, you may want to check one or some of these books out.

Good luck!

[memedee]

I have read all three books also and Ferbers method is a tough one to follow as it is pretty much about crying it out.
Mindell and Weisbluth have some crying but they offer a lot of solutions.
They all say to have a routine that you do not deviate from involving perhaps a bath, a song a saying that you do consistently every night.
They also recommend that you do not feed in the middle of the night and just give water.
They will stop waking for the water,
But right now your baby's routine is the feeding and unfortunately if you want to break that habit you have to do it cold turkey.Feeding some of the time or giving in after trying not to feed only reinforces the behavior that you want to stop.Partial reinforcement of any behavior encourages it. Consistency is the key and replacement with alternatve solutions consistently.
As a parent it is up to us to distinguish between what the baby wants and what the baby needs.
It is often easier to give the baby what it wants but it is more important to give the baby what it needs.
That said I can assure you that eventually no matter what you do your baby will not be breastfeeding himself to sleep forever.:)

[lisams]

OMG!! I could have written your exact message (and have been so frustrated that I was getting ready to!!) My DD is also 6 months and has started waking 2-3 times a night with that angry cry. Rocking her or bouncing her seems to make her more upset. She used to be able to be nursed to sleep at night, but that's hit or miss now.

Here are 2 thoughts that I am pondering right now - My DD has 5 teeth, 3 came in at the same time last week so I wonder if it's the teething. Also, we just started solids and she has been having gas so we are working on fixing that.

I will let you know if I find anything else that works (we turned her Ocean Wonders Aquarium on during one of her scream fests and that seemed to help her calm down a few times) It is so frustrating when you can't calm your child and have no idea what is really causing it.

Good Luck to both of us!!
Lisa

[Karenn]

Hang in there! The good news is that there are a ton of resources out there that can help you with sleep. The hard part is going to be finding a method that you can live with, and that works for your baby. I thought Weissbluth was the most helpful of all of them. If you would rather not let your baby cry, try Pantly, but know that it will probably take a few weeks rather than a few days for things to get better. Pretty much all of the "sleep experts" agree that she needs to learn to fall asleep on her own. But, personally, I think that if nursing was working, you were right to stick with it. It's very possible that you would have ended up in the same place a whole lot sooner even if you hadn't nursed her to sleep. I did. :)

BTW, Colin would do the same thing- sleep for 45 minutes and wake up crying. While no one really knows what's going on in a baby's brain, I think when Colin would do that, he was really saying, "Help! I'm so tired and I can't sleep, and I'm frustrated that I can't sleep so please help me fall asleep!" Once he learned how to sleep without me, and became more well rested, I stopped hearing that horrible cry.
Good luck,

[wendmatt]

Thankyou all so much for your tips, it helps to hear I'm not the only one and I'm not a bad mum! I don't like the ferber idea, I can't leave Emily to cry on her own, it's hard enough her crying when I'm there, so I'll check out this Weisbluth book.
Karen, how did Colin learn to go to sleep, that's EXACTLY what Emily's doing, she's so tired and can't get off on her own. You said he learned, was it by himself or did you read one of these books? Or give a lovey? I didn't think to give one to Ems while I'm nursing...good idea, I keep trying to get her to like a soft toy in the crib but it's not working!
I feel for you Lisa! It's hit and miss with the nursing here too! She was such a good little baby, sleeping really well so I guess she's making up for it now!! Good luck tonight!

[Karenn]

Oh, you probably don't really want to hear how I got Colin to fall asleep on his own. :( I actually read ALL of the books (I became a little obsessed with sleep :) ) and in the end, the only thing that would work for Colin was to cry. If I were you though, I would really give Elizabeth Pantly's No Cry Sleep Solution a try. She shares a number of different ways to try to teach your baby to fall asleep on his or her own. It didn't work for us, but I know people for whom it has worked well. I think it has a fairly good chance of working for you because it sounds like your daughter has slept fairly well up until recently. (Colin never really slept well.) And, since you're wary of letting her cry (I was too!) there's no sense in going "hard core" with the crying if there's a chance the Pantly method will work for you. The No Cry Sleep Solution uses many of the priciples that people find so helpful from Weissbluth's book, (Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child,) but addresses them within a "No Cry" context. (Weissbluth does actually suggest crying as a method in his book, but many people are able to sort of "ignore" that part and focus on his healthy sleep principles.)

Good luck and may you AND Emily be well rested soon!

[sparkeze]

First off, I will tell you what we do - co-sleep and night nursing.

I didn't *want* to co-sleep or nurse during the night but that's what worked best for all of us. Now I really love it and it doesn't interfere whatsoever with me feeling well-rested in the morning.

I don't want to imply that other options are not good for your individual situations but I just had to say that it makes my stomach turn when I think of a baby crying themselves to sleep ALONE. My DS has cried himself to sleep at times, but I was holding, nursing, rocking, anything I could think of to try and help him. I don't see why babies need to be taught how to sleep. If a baby isn't taught does that mean that they'll be 18 years old needing mommy to rock or nurse them to sleep? I really doubt that. I know it's hard to function on no sleep, I've been there! But a baby is biologically programmed to need/want a caring adult 24 hours a day, not only during daytime hours. If you think of human babies as a species it just makes so much more sense that they need nighttime parenting. For me, changing my own mindset about what to expect from my DS helped tremendously.

I don't want to make this into a rant so I'll just end it with my experience. My DS has naturally progressed into a better sleeper. He still wakes up during the night, mostly before I've gotten into bed with him. I nurse him back to sleep everytime he wakes up because it's the easiest way for me. He takes one nap now and he sleeps at night from about 8-7:30am. Teething and illness throw any kind of schedule out the window of course!

So thanks for letting me get that off my chest! Hope I didn't offend any one in any way! :)

[Karenn]

Not offended- you're always very good about sharing your thoughts in a non offensive manner when it comes to controversial issues. I hope I can follow your example.

I just wanted to add: I didn't come to the decision to let Colin cry to sleep easily. It was, in fact, the hardest decision of my life. I had tried everything from co-sleeping to baby whispering, and had no success. I had to think about the potential effects of letting him cry to sleep, and the potential effects of both of us living in a chronically sleep deprived state. Neither situation has good outcomes. I had to weigh all of the factors and decide what was best for my baby. I came down on the side of letting him cry, rather than letting him be sleep deprived. I know others choose differently and I really do respect that. I think sometimes though, some parents in the "no cry" camp (which I was a part of for some time, and still am- sort of. :) ) think that parents who let their babies cry do so because they're lazy and selfish- that they just get sick of taking care of a baby in the middle of the night and so they just let them cry. In my case at least, that couldn't be further from the truth. I did it because I really believe that it was in his best interest. I would have absolutely no qualms about getting up with him every 30 minutes all night long if that is what I really believed he needed. So, I may be misguided, but I truly am sincere in trying to do the right thing!

Like Sparkeze, I hope I'm not offending anyone, but I've had those thoughts rattling around in my brain all evening (even before her post!) and I wanted to get them out there. Thanks for letting me share them.

[COElizabeth]

I am LOL about the Weissbluth reader description; it fits me perfectly. I try not to let James scream for more than a few minutes (occasionally he falls asleep in just a few minutes of half-hearted crying) unless I am just at my wit's end, but I do find Weissbluth's points about napping and babies' need for sleep really interesting. That book has made me a lot more conscious of trying to keep James well rested.

Elizabeth
Mom to James
9-20-02

[wendmatt]

Oh Karen, you're so sweet. I didn't think anything bad at all, I was in fact going to ask how many nights it took until he didn't cry and how long did he cry and did you leave him and wait outside or visit atall. I'm going to try to get her off without crying (I'm ordering books from Amazon) but Emily's like Colin and needs to know how to get to sleep coz she's exhausted but can't seem to go off on her own (even with nursing) when she gets to that stage. I have total respect for the cosleeping thing too, so please don't judge me for asking about the crying!
I really appreciate all the input.....Guess what, tonight we lay together and did nurse till sleeping but so far she hasn't woken up (75 mins later)woo hoo!!
Just want to add, it's not that I'm asking for selfish reasons and want to get sleep (as I do as she sleeps through once she does finally go off) it's just that she gets so upset and wants to go to sleep but just can't seem to, being rocked or nursed or anything else.

[heidi_timms]

My friend recommended "Happiest Baby on the Block:The New Way to Calm Crying and Help Your Baby Sleep Longer" by Dr. Harvey Karp. She has a five-month-old and gave it to me as part of my shower gift. I just barely started reading it, so I can't vouch for the book. It got rave reviews on Amazon.com.

~Heidi
Mom to Kailey Ashlin
4/27/03

[nigele]

Karen,

Colin and Tom really are one in the same! I have tried EVERYTHING to get Tom to sleep. He has never been a good sleeper. The one and only thing that works for him is to cry. He will not nurse to sleep, he will fall asleep in the car, stroller, etc. but ONLY after crying, I cannot rock him to sleep, etc., etc. I hate it but this is the only way the poor baby gets to sleep. We have a consistent bed time routine but when I lay him in the crib, he cries anywhere from 3-30 minutes before falling asleep. I do go in and comfort him at 5, 10, 15 minutes, etc. because I don't want him to feel abandoned. He still wakes 2-3 times each night and will usually nurse back to sleep. I have been trying to break him of this but it is really hard in the middle of the night when I know that if I nurse him, I can get back to sleep myself that much sooner. I have been doing a "modified" Ferber plan and it has helped drastically. He used to wake up every hour! That was no fun.

[sparkeze]

I read that when DS was about 2 mo and I was so upset at myself for not having read it earlier. I thought there were really good ideas in there.

And as a side note: I do nurse my DS BACK to sleep when he wakes up during the night. But he rarely has nursed to sleep (from being awake). He used to cry and cry (and cry some more) until I figured out the quickest way to get him to sleep. Movement and sucking. Not movement like walking, movement like you're running as fast as you can to catch a bus. I gave him a pacifier and bounced him very vigorously to get him to sleep. He would be out like a light. As he got older he got heavier and it got harder to get him to sleep bouncing him like that, but he slowly got used to more of a walking pace of bouncing. Now I put on the same song I've been using for the past year on repeat, give him a pacifier, and walk him to sleep. it usually takes under 5 minutes. I got a lot of those ideas from this book!

[friedmana1]

I just want to say how wonderful this board is for letting us share our ideas about parenting. This thread truly proves that what works for some babies (and parents) may not work for others. I think that you just have to do what feels comfortable for you and your baby, regardless of what other people say.

FYI, I actually did co-sleep, and nurse my daughter back to sleep for the first seven weeks until I went back to work. Then, because of my crazy work schedule (overnight shifts), I was determined to try to get a better night's sleep. Once she starting sleeping 6 hours at a stretch (about as much as I sleep) at ten weeks, I put her in her own crib and let her cry it out. And now, she sleeps beautifully.

Off to finish my overnight shift, and then get some sleep myself! :)

Aimee

[ginalc]

Many families have great success co-sleeping! :) Some children, however, have trouble actually sleeping while trying to co-sleep as they get older. I think of it as the "slumber party syndrome" :)!

My 1st DD was a good sleeper, co-slept and we never had a single problem.

DD #2 was a completely different story. With 1 child, I could function on less sleep and take naps. With 2 children and NO sleep, I was a zombie and could barely even put sentences together after MONTHS of trying to co-sleep and comfort a child who wasn't sleeping. I too have a tender heart when it comes to crying babies.

I listened when my friend suggested the "Sleeping Through the Night" book and struggled with the idea for weeks before letting DD cry while falling asleep in the evening. We sat at the kitchen table and played board games and card games for 5 nights, and took turns going in to tell DD that she was OK. After those tough nights were over, she went to bed without any fuss and actually looked FORWARD to the bedtime routine! (she was 10 months old at the time)

I always comfort her in the middle of the night, but going to sleep on her own in the evening was the key for us. BTW, at 2.5 yrs old, she still has occasional trouble sleeping through the night. We've been potty-training so the new excuse is "Mommy, I have to go potty!" :) Another favorite is "Mommy, I hungry!"

With 3 children, I'm getting NO naps (actually would pay good money for an afternoon nap some days! :) ) and the new baby is a good co-sleeper. Just depends on the child and the parent's tolerance level, IMHO.

gina, mom to 3

[sparky]

I'm new to the forum and glad to have run across this thread. We've struggled with the sleep issue for months, and with Grace at 13 months, we seem to be hitting a low point. The previous posts have echoed our issues repeatedly.

BF baby...wakes in the night (sometimes 2x/night, sometimes 6x/night), screams inconsolably if I'm not the one who goes to her. Will not settle without nursing. Not a great napper either, hasn't been since ~2 months of age. She used to be a better sleeper, waking only once for a feeding.

I recently went back to work during the day and DH is home with her. We're all feeling the stress of that routine change.

We've started to bring her to our bed in the night but it's not working for me. I sleep very poorly while she's there and I can't have that be the long term solution.

I've read the Pantley book...it hasn't worked for us but I thought the concepts and ideas were helpful.

I've read Ferber and Mindell as well...we've tried a couple versions of those methods, maybe we just didn't give them the chance they deserved but she got so upset she couldn't catch her breath and when we finally gave that up, she worked for over an hour to settle down while we rocked and cuddled.

I totally respect the parents for whom crying techniques have worked. I can't figure out how she's ever going to learn to sleep on her own without doing some crying but at the same time, if she crys, she's so serious about it, and I don't know how she'll ever settle down from that.

I haven't tried Weissbluth yet, I'm starting to think that I've gotten all the help I'm going to from a book but I've seen some good things here so maybe I'll give it a shot.

This is an important thread, very supportive and helpful. Keep it coming, this is such a hot button issue for many families, mine included. Sleep is such an issue in our house right now that I got choked up and teary just reading the posts and replying. Sleep deprivation is a powerful thing.

[nigele]

Just wanted to give the Moms here who are struggling with nap issues my advice (or at least what worked for me.)

Until seeing other people on this board with major sleep issues, I thought I had the worst sleeper ever! After some sleep training, Tom still wakes a couple of times a night but he now takes awesome naps during the day. He was a really bad napper before and the only way he would nap at all was if I was lying with him. The change in his naps was not an automatic thing and looking back, I know exactly how the great napping came about.

Tom had eye surgery in February and for six weeks, he was not allowed to touch his eye. That is a near impossible request of a baby, especially when they are tired - the first thing they want to do when tired is rub their eyes (Tom is a BIG TIME eye-rubber!) To get him to sleep without rubbing his eye, for both naps and bed time, during his recovery we had to pop him in his car seat and drive him. My hubby drove around while I sat in the back holding his arms down so he could not get at his eye. He sreamed and cried until he finally fell asleep. This was a terrible time for us but looking back, it got him onto a regular nap schedule, morning and afternoon. When his eye healed we gave it a few weeks then started letting him CIO a bit. The naps were the easiest for CIO and he now sleeps like a champ. Usually, one and a half to two hours in the morning and an hour or so in the afternoon. I cannot tell you how great this feels. I finally get a break to get things done in the house and he gets some great rest.

This might not work for everybody, but if your situation is bad enough, and you need some sleep, or need the breaks during the day, you might try it. Driving a baby around both morning and afternoon for a couple of weeks might not sound ideal, but it is an easy way to start the transition the baby to start taking regular naps. Putting them to nap in the crib would be the next step. I know my situation was extreme but looking back I swear it would have helped us even if we didn't have to do it.

[Karenn]

Wendy,
Thanks for your kind response! It actually took Colin quite awhile before he would fall asleep without any crying at bedtime- at least two weeks. But I wouldn't consider Colin to be the norm. I've really come to believe that as far as sleep goes, he's kind of the worst case scenario. (Fortunately he's a very easy baby in every other regard!) Jodi Mindel has said that something like 80% of babies will sleep through the night once they learn to fall asleep on their own. She says it usually involves 2-3 nights of crying. Colin cried 40 minutes the first night, 60-70 the second night, and no more than 20 on the third night. (Of course he was part of the 20% that did not sleep through the night, he woke up 45 minutes later. :) )

Like I said in an earlier post, I got a little obsessed with the sleep thing, and I've collected a bunch of websites that I've gone to for information. Some are more useful than others, and just like any resource, you have to use your own judgement in terms of whether or not you agree with the advice, but I thought I might share them. I hope they help someone!

[http://boards.parentsoup.com/messages/get/pssleepprob181.html] This message board gives advice for parents who are sleep training. They tend to follow the Weissbluth approach.

[http://pages.ivillage.com/sorensmom/sleeproblems.html] This is a webpage designed by one of the women who hosts that Parent Soup Sleep Training board. It also tends to follow the Weissbluth approach.

[http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-psgently] This is a message board for parents who are using no-cry sleep methods with their babies.

[http://www.babycenter.com/baby/babysleep/index] Baby Center tries to present all of the different sleep philosophies (Sears, Ferber, Mindell, etc.), but has Jodi Mindell as one of their experts. You can almost find her whole book on this website if you look in the right places.

[http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/content/supportgroups.htm]This is Elizabeth Pantly's Website. Lot's of resources and support for people going the no-cry route. She has links to other no-cry resources.

[http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070100.asp] Dr. Sears has a whole section on his website about sleep.

[http://www.babycenter.com/general/7645.html] A chart at Baby Center that shows about how much sleep your child should be getting according to their age.

[http://www.parents.com/community/index.jsp] If you find the "sleep" message board here, the board is hosted by Jodi Mindell. She will often answer questions that readers post about sleep. If you have time to search the archives, you can find a lot of good answers there too.

[mcmorfit]

Karen,

WOW! Thanks for the great sites. I too am obsessed about sleep so now I have even more to read about - LOL.

[Kristine]

I, too, co-sleep and nurse during the night. If my son wakes up at night, it only takes a couple of minutes to roll over, nurse him, and then fall contentedly back to sleep. It seems to make the most sense, and my husband and I both awake feeling refreshed each morning. I follow La Leche League's principles about nursing and that you mustn't refuse the breast if it's wanted. I know that my baby won't be nursing or sleeping with us forever, so I want to enjoy it now while he is still small and still needs us. I like how you write that a baby is biologically programmed to need a parent 24 hours a day. I read a funny line from a doctor once who said that if he can get up in the middle of the night to attend to patients that he doesn't even know, surely parents can get up and take care of their own children. I thought that was cute!

Having said this, my pediatrician told me when my son was quite small that I may not want to nurse him to sleep in the future when he was older because that's how he would learn to fall asleep. I told her politely that I saw her for medical reasons only and that this was a personal decision. I would much rather my son fall asleep with a human being than grow attached to an object such as a pacifier or stuffed animal.