LATCH question

[HHCs Mom]

I have a question on LATCH that hopefully a tech (or even a non-tech!) can answer... I have a 2003 GMC Envoy. The LATCH is on the two outboard positions and there is no LATCH in the center of the back seat. We are looking at convertible car seats for DS and would like to install it using the LATCH, but would *really* like to install it in the center of the back seat. DH has proposed that we install it in the center, but use the two inside-positioned LATCH hooks from the outboard positions. Does that make any sense?

Do you think this would be safe or should we just make a choice (LATCH or no LATCH) and do it the "right way"? To me, there's got to be a reason why there is no LATCH in the center of the back seat. I just have trouble making the choice since I'd like to use LATCH but really want DS in the center of the back seat.

Thoughts??
Thanks!
Kim

[jra]

Have you checked your owner's manual for your Envoy to see what it says? We used to have a Dodge Caravan. It only had 4 latch hooks in the back seat, but the manual said that the two inner latch hooks could be used to put a seat in the center. You just couldn't put 2 carseats side by side. There was also a tether point for each spot in the back seat too.

Jennifer

[Joolsplus2]

You're going through what practically ALL parents are going through, since all new seats have LATCH, the center is safest, and virtually no cars have LATCH in the center.
First, read your seat and car manuals. Some allow you to use the inboard anchors (both the seat and the car manual must allow it, though, and to be sure, call them both, too. For instance, Ford allows the inner LATCH anchors in all their cars, but you'd have to call them to find this out, as they aren't sending out new manuals to all those car owners).
If you don't get the OK to install it in the center with latch from both sources, then the best thing you can do is install the seat with the seatbelt in the center. If you can't get a good installation with the belt in the center (less than one inch of movement side to side or front to back at the point where the seatbelt goes through the seat), then installing it with LATCH in the outboard is safest.
Try www.carseatdata.org to see what seats anyone has tried in your car (all envoys are the same, right? so try all available years, there won't be a lot of entries, though), and by all means, try to find a local tech to see if they can offer any installation education to you
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/whatis/regions/index.cfm?fitting=yes and www.seatcheck.org should show at least one or 2 techs near you.

The biggest reason not to use LATCH in the center if it's not specifically allowed, is that it has either been tested and something failed, or it hasn't been tested at all, and your child is the crashtest dummy, in essence. It may or may not be dangerous, but we have absolutely no idea either way (and most car companies and seat companies aren't racing to give us answers, either, I'm sorry to say...)
Anyway, best of luck getting your seat installed. No matter what method you use or what postition it's in, it is extremely safe when it's all done properly (I say this, too, for those of us with 2 kiddos who HAVE to be in outboard/window seats :) )
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[HHCs Mom]

Thanks a bunch, ladies! As always, very helpful and informed! We'll check out all of the sources y'all suggested and see what we can find out. DS is still in his SnugRide, so we may move him to the center (if it's allowable) before he moves into the convertible seat.

Thanks!
Kim

[HHCs Mom]

DH emailed GM and got an answer from them regarding using the two inside LATCH hooks in the outboard positions to secure the seat in the middle of the backseat.

Here's what they said:
"According to the owner's manual chapter 1-39 GMC recommends that you use the outside seating positions for child restraint seats. This is where the complete LATCH system is set up. We recommend that you follow the instructions in the owner's manual chapter 1 pages 45-49 for the safest way to install child safety seats. We do not recommend that you use the LATCH system in any other way than instructed in the owner's manual. You may also go to your local state police office to see if they offer instructions or inspections for the installation of child safety seats."

This is taken directly from the email from the Customer Relationship Manager for GMC. So, it looks like DS will remain in the outboard positions in this car until we get something else down the road...

Just thought y'all might like an update!
Kim

[TonFirst]

Is your GM dealership willing to install an aftermarket LATCH for the middle seat position? A colleague of mine has a 1999 Land Rover, and his dealership easily installed the LATCH hardware. I know that many other automakers can do the same thing.

Hope this helps -

[Joolsplus2]

It's probable that they installed a top tether anchor, but not the lower LATCH anchors. Only a few models of VW and Audi can have lower LATCH anchors installed, but for all other cars, adding those lower bars is both a feat of engineering and a liability nightmare, so it's just not done. However, even dealers are confused about proper terminology and rarely know the difference between top tether hardware and the lower LATCH bars, and will SAY they have installed LATCH, even if they only put in the top tether anchor.
Fortunately, installing all seats with seatbelts is still an option, and just as safe, and often just as easy as installing them with LATCH, so it's not a big deal if there are no lower LATCH anchors (though top anchors are a wonderful addition to the safety of the seat, and it's highly recommended that they be added to all cars as old as the 89 model year, if a child is to be transported in a car seat in them)
Hope that helps a little,

Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[hovegator]

I have a 2003 Explorer and just spent a 1/2 hour wrestling with my Britax Companion trying to install it properly before my appointment with the police dept. on Tuesday. I have the same problem as the Envoy and was hoping to use the outside anchors to put the seat in the middle. Only problem is that i can't get the LATCH straps on the Companion to lengthen at all, so they don't reach the anchors!Does anyone know if the straps adjust to a longer length or do they just get shorter?

[Joolsplus2]

Are the middle LATCH anchors between 11 and 20 inches apart? If so, both Ford and Britax agree you can use LATCH in that position. (yay!)
I'm looking at page 20/21 of the online manual, and it looks like you should be able to loosen the LATCH straps by pushing the metal button on the adjuster. To me, it looks like a seatbelt, where you have a "tail" and you can loosen it and the tail should get shorter. If you have it loosened to the point there is no tail and it won't reach the LATCH anchors in the middle, then obviously that position won't be an option.
If the LATCH belt adjuster is like my MA adjusters, it's a bugger to loosen, you have to push pretty hard on that metal button and really yank it to get it loose (picture E on page 21` shows the metal button on the adjuster im talking about, and the hand is pulling on the "tail" end of the belt). http://www.britaxusa.com/documents/COMP_R02.pdf

Does that help at all?
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[hovegator]

My husband just yanked on the straps too and he couldn't get them to go any longer either. i was afriad he'd break it! So i guess i'm going with a window seat. We have side curtain airbags, so that will make sitting in the side seat safer, right?

Is there a preferred side? I was playing with the Baby In Sight mirror (and i know some people don't recommend them because they can become projectiles), and i think i can get the best view of the baby if i put him behind the passenger seat. Also, my husband is 6'3 and will need to put the seat back pretty far and i think the car seat might be in the way. Anyone have any opinions on that subject?

Tomorrow i have plans to try the thing in our 2003 Camry. Be prepared for many more questions! :)

[Joolsplus2]

Statistically, either side is about equal, so go with what works. Or why not just use the seatbelt in the middle position? I know LATCH is kind of exciting, but seatbelts are just as safe, and in THAT seat, probably just as easy...but really, whatever works best for you is very safe :)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[Elizasmom]

I too was really hung up on this issue when we had our Toyota Highlander with no center latch and I really was obsessed with keeping my child in the center. I ended up getting a Britax Marathon car seat. One of the reasons was that Britax told me that it was okay to “fake a latch” with their seats as long as the inner latch positions are not more than a certain distance apart. I don’t remember what that distance was, so you should call them to check. Keep in mind that this may not be okay with other companies, but it is with Britax. You have to remember that latch connectors are a standard distance apart (17” or something like that). When you fake a latch in the center, the distance is usually different (except on some vehicles) which is why the safety is in question. I always ran the seatbelt through as well just to be sure. Britax told me this was okay as long as I didn’t overtighten the seatbelt (the latch straps were real tight). There does need to be a certain amount of give in an accident. Another issue to think about – do you have a teather spot in the center? I think this is an even bigger deal than not having latch in the center.

All that said, I should tell you that, to my horror, all my worries about how to safely keep my child in the center really paid off. Our Highlander was totaled in a severe side-impact (40-50 mph) collision by a very large pickup. Had she been on the passenger side, I do not see how she could have survived. Instead, she walked away with only scrapes from the straps of her seat. We now have the Britax Wizzard for the extra side-impact protection and a new Toyota minivan with side airbags and the best crash scores possible. I can tell you that our faked latch did hold. The force of the collision was amazing. The straps were stretched to about 50% longer than their original length. As I said, we also had the seatbelt in just in case a latch connection gave out or was improperly connected somehow. I would do that even if I were not faking a latch just for peace of mind.

[hovegator]

i was planning on putting the Companion in the center (Ford says this is OK) by using the latch anchors from the side seats the way you suggested, but i can't get the straps long enough. The straps just do not get any longer. The part of the strap where it doubles back on itself and is stitched to itself (i hope you can figure out what i'm talking about!) doesn't fit through the part with the metal adjustment button. Julie, maybe you seen the Companion and know what i'm talking about.

Also, even though i am tall (5'8), the Explorer is quite wide and i'm not sure i could get the carrier in and out of the center position without hurting my back. Hopefully those side curtain airbags are as good as the manufacturer claims!

The tech that checked my seat had never seen the Companion before and was trying to tell me that the anti-rebound bar was not safe since it is in front of the baby. I find that amusing considering that Britax has one of the best safety records! She gave me a half a pool noodle to help with the leveling, but otherwise was pretty useless. Disappointing, but i've gotten so much good advice here that i feel pretty confident.

THANKS!

[Joolsplus2]

You know, when the Marathon first came out, the LATCH straps were really short...I have one of the first ones, and trying to install it RF in some cars is impossible, so maybe they have some theory about short LATCH straps equalling fewer installation screw ups? (People will take the long LATCH straps of the Snugride and reach them through the seat to hook them to cargo hooks in the rear of SUV's, I kid you not!)
I think some techs think "cocooning" is safe, so an anti rebound bar preventing that is not a good idea. I think Britax knows what they are doing, and if they say a baby shouldn't cocoon into a seatback, I trust them, too :)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx