Argh! Marathon not a good fit in Subaru Outback?!

[duvie]

After researching and researching...we got the Marathon for 6 month old DS. Yesterday, the fire chief told me that he "can't get a good fit" in the center seat on my Subaru Outback. He said that he could try installing it on the passenger side, but doesn't recommend it (and I don't feel comfortable with that option). He suggested getting the Cosco Alpha Omega, but after researching and researching (!) again, I am wondering about the Graco Platinum Cargo. Please help!

In hind sight, I should not have tried to save money by buying a carseat on the internet because now I don't think that I can return it. I can't imagine shipping it back and the chief cut the tags off before he tried to install it-I am NOT happy :(
Duvie

[kijip]

I would not worry about returning the MA just yet. It sounds like the fireman was installing the seat for you and you did not get a chance to do it yourself? I am almost sure that the MA can fit well into the Subaru Outback. A couple of things to consider:

RF in the outboard position is safer for your 6 month old than a FF Graco Platinum CarGo. FWIW, I have a car with a high bump in the senter seat. My son rides in the outboard position. I am clearly concerned with safety and while the center is the safest spot, outboard in a well used carseat is safe as well. Most crashes are frontal and rear, not lateral.

Your 6 month old is too young for the Graco seat, which is FF only- RF is required till at least 1 year.

The MA is generally an easier seat to install and fit than the Alpha Omega, which gets bad reviews from lots of parents.

The fireman should not be installing the seat for you- he should be teaching you haw to do it- did he show you why it would not fit in your car? Have you tried to install it on your own?

Try calling 800 Bucklup and see if you can find a seat check in your area.

If after trying to do it yourself, getting a second opinion etc, if it still doesn't work you can sell it or return it and tackle the issue of a new seat.

[daniele_ut]

I know Julie will give you a great answer soon, but since I am up at this unearthly hour with DS, I'll chime in too. I have a 2001 Subaru Outback Sport with a lapbelt only in the center. When I tried getting the MA to fit in the center I wasn't able to get a really tight fit. I had DS with me and he was getting fussy, so we just tried it outboard on the passenger side, got it really tight and made sure DH could sit in front of it, which he could. I figured we could play more later with the center install when we actually buy the seat. Subarus either have long buckle stalks in the center, or those funky double buckle belts, which can make them a challenge. A long buckly stalk can be twisted up to 3 full turns to make it shorter. We had to do this for the Snugride base to get a tighter fit. This might help in your Subaru.

I don't know what year your Outback is, but I would go ahead and give it a try on the passenger side. IMO he's safer RF in any position than FF in the center.

[Joolsplus2]

There are 2 kinds of techs...Britax lovers and Alpha Omega lovers ;) Though, Subarus are some of the toughest cars to install in, too :P

What did he say the problem was? Did he at least have you in there trying to help so you could learn something and see what was wrong? Did he top tether it to the passenger seat in front? Did he twist the buckle stalk down? Do you have one of those shoulderbelts that buckles twice to make a lapbelt, and if so, did he try buckling the big buckle first and then buckling the littl buckle? Did he twist the buckle stalk down, like Daniele suggested? Which lockoff was he trying to close?

See, there are heaps of tricks to know about getting a seat installed, and if he didn't tell you about all of them as he tried them out, then I bet that MA really *will* fit in the middle of your car. And if it doesn't, then it IS perfectly acceptable to put it outboard in the rearfacing postition. If that is way too nervewracking for you, then hang on to your MA, but go get a Touriva for $40 from Walmart, and put that in the middle and use it as a spare seat, and then use your MA when baby is forward facing. But don't waste your money on a AO, as he suggested...it makes a junk booster and terrible travel seat (too bulky), and just costs way too much for what it is (I don't know how the Touriva can be so much better and cost so much less, lol).

Tell me if you need a step-by-step walk through so you can install that MA yourself.

:)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[holliam]

We have a Subaru Outback too and I had read from other owners that the Marathon is tough to get installed in the center RF. It's basically the reason we got the Roundabout instead. Hope you can get it to work though!

Holli

[duvie]

First of all, thank you for your quick responses! I was awake between 2:30 and 4:00 a.m. worrying about it, and unfortunately I am expending a lot of energy stressing about it today.

The guy said that the main problem was that he couldn't get enough of the base in contact with the seat under it (said that there needed to be a certain percentage). Also said that he couldn't get enough recline, although he said that this didn't matter as much as the first problem. He was not showing me how to do it- just doing it himself.

I definitely don't think that he likes Britax...he told me to "take it to the dumpster" (struck me as a bit extreme and ridiculous).

I wish that I could get a second opinion, but this fire station is the only place in the area. I am not looking forward to going back to this guy (find him intimidating), but if we install it ourselves I will always wonder if we did it correctly.
So...WWYD: install the MA in the outboard position or get a Touriva and put it in the center? We have a Touriva in my husband's car and the shoulder straps do not seem to fit DS that well (kind of seem like they are sliding off his shoulders even when it is tight). Also, I know that padding is not necessary for safety, but the MA seems so much more comfy.

One more question...Julie, why is the Touriva so much better than the Alpha Omega?

Thanks again for your help,
Duvie

p.s. my Outback is a 2004

[kellyotn]

Sorry you are having such a tough time. :-( Your tech doesn't sound like he's very friendly.

Personally, I'd try one more time for the middle. If not, I'd just go outboard. I worried about center center center when I had one child, but now there's two and the center isn't an option at all! :-) My youngest will never get to ride center in our current car, it just won't fit with 2 seats.

Once you get the hang of it, its pretty easy to install on your own. I'm sure the techs will chime in. But, if its at the right angle, the seat doesn't move more than 1" at the belt/LATCH path (you'll get it WAY tighter than that, I promise), and you tether for extra security - you'll be fine!!

Here's a site for rear facing tether options. http://www.angelfire.com/wa3/isakswings/ratetherrf.html

[Deborah_Hogan]

I have Outback and Marathon.

Ignore guy and do it yourself. After years of stressing over seats, I've gotten good enough that I swap out marathon between vehicles. You can do it!

I had an awful experience at one of those safety fairs. Not all techs are like Julie!

Try center again. Try lapbelt if latch won't work. Try everything!

Someday you'll use forward facing and it will just pop right in.

I had to go outboard once 2 kids. I understand how the middle is less anxiety producing.

[Joolsplus2]

Ok, I guess I can understand how if he was trying to get a good recline without the tether, then the base would be pulling up off the seat. The trick is to really, really crank the seatbelt down, not worrying about recline, so that it will look utterly upright, but the belt is super duper tight through the belt path. This can take three or 4 tries, even for me! (I have shoulders like a linebacker from doing this every weekend, lol). Then try to lock the lockoffs...one or both...sometimes you have to wiggle the seat a little to get the seatbelts flat through them so they aren't bunched up and closed...so maybe you want to do this with two people at first...have dh put ALL his weight on the front part of the seat where the baby's feet go, and you clip the lockoff. Then clip the top tether and pull the seat into a decent recline. This page shows what that looks like , Swedish style.. http://www.angelfire.com/wa3/isakswings/ratetherrf.html

THEN you can tuck the cover back down around the front of the seat and lock the seatbelt (pull it all the way out slowly from the ceiling and let it ratchet/retract back in).

So you already have a spare touriva? You could trade seats with your DH then if you really want to make that center work in the Subaru. Installing the MA outboard with LATCH would take about 2 minutes and be Soooooo easy...and a 2004 car has curtain airbags? If so, the outboard position is *really* safe for a rearfacing baby.

Why do I think the Touriva is better? It's priced what it's worth, mainly... you pay all that extra money for the AO and it's still not better padded, and the top slots are lower, so it won't even last harnessed as long. The AO is pretty bad as a booster seat, it really forces the seatbelt high up on the abdomen and the shoulderbelt well forward off the chest of that tiny kid who's too tall for those short harness slots. The headrest/harness moving mechanism breaks fairly easily...I rarely see a floor model that works. And the Touriva fits in almost 100 percent of cars it's installed in, the AO about 75% (the Marathon and Roundabout with the new base fit in like 95%)...that's based on data from www.carseatdata.org).

Well, I honetly don't mind the AO so much for "regular" parents, who probably wouldn't buy a booster after the convertible anyway, but since I have you here researching this stuff, you're the kind of mom who WILL buy and use all seats properly, and you deserve the inside scoop on these things ;)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[kijip]

I don't have a huge amount of experience (obviously!) but the serveral AO I encountered were slip, slidy messes. I am not joking. It was TERRIBLE. It took me and a huge cop to get an AO reasonably tight when RF. We tried several times. Whereas, I can get most other seats uber-tight all by my lonesome myself!

[Joolsplus2]

I just have to use a locking clip and take the base off, that usually makes it better (not always...ugh!)...as hard as it can be getting lockoffs closed on a Marathon, I still don't think they are as hard to use as a locking clip, lol.

I've been so lucky where I work to pretty much only get snugrides and marathons...I'm spoiled enough to hate installing RF in mercedes and bmw's, they are SO hard to do and find a rf tether spot, lah dee dah! ;)


I'm going to be in the real world soon, doing free checks (moving to a new state, away from my paid job at a ritzy baby store!)... I'm sure american made cars with comfortsports will soon be on my hate list, lol.


Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[daniele_ut]

While I was at BRU tonight debating over the RA vs MA, I decided to try one more time to make the MA fit in the center of our Outback Sport and I am happy to report that I was victorius!! I followed Julie's directions that she gave me several months ago (modified for lap belt only) and practically sat in the sucker to get it tight. It was actually easier than installing the SnugRide by far! I found that by sliding the belt through the belt path and closing the lock-off on the opposite side of the seat from the buckle, then I could pull the belt really tight and lean in on the buckle side to buckle it. I had to twist the buckle stalk and there *is* an inch of movement, but we have that much with the Snugride too, because of how far apart the latch side of the belt and the buckle side are. I wasn't able to close the lock-off on the buckle side, but Julie told me that this is ok. Once I find somewhere to tether the seat, I think we'll have a pretty solid install.

We won't be using it in the Subaru until August, but next month we will be taking a cross-country drive in one of our company vans, a 2005 Chevy Express 3500 (11 passenger van). Julie, should we install in with Latch behind the driver on the first bench, or with the belt in the center (given the CR info about over-rotation)? DS is only 14 lbs 11 oz right now, and has about 2 inches of head room in the SnugRide. We will be gone for 7 weeks, though, and I am pretty sure he will outgrow it by then, and since we have the massive van and plenty of space we're just taking the MA. I haven't looked to see where I can tether it yet, but I thought I would see if you are at all familiar with this van and might have an idea.

[Joolsplus2]

Oh cool, I'm glad it worked!

As for the van...don't feel bad AT ALL about using the LATCH for RF...it's simply not a danger that it rotates back an extra 5 degrees when loaded with the 34 pound dummy in a 30 mph crash...the dummy STILL stays totally contained (and presumably uninjured) within the seat shell. Of course, the center is always safest...but you'll be a pro at installing with the seatbelt, and it should be really easy in that van...almost anything is easier than a Subaru, lol. I think you'll find a place to tether really easily, I'm sure the legs for the front seats will be visible and easy to tie the tether connector strap around.

:)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[duvie]

O.K.- we are working through this and thanks to everyone's tips, I am feeling better about the whole thing.

DH got the MA installed in the center of the OUtback using the lap/shoulder belt. It seemed secure but still moved from side to side (about an inch, maybe more).

A friend then suggested keeping the seat in the center and using LATCH. (I thought that I read that you are only supposed to use LATCH if the seat is in the outboard position). DH kept the seat in the center and used the 2 inner LATCH anchorages. The seat now doesn't move AT ALL. Is there a reason why we can't use LATCH from the center position?

Last question: is the tether (Swedish position) just for extra stability? Is the recline for the comfort of the child or for safety?

Thanks!
Duvie

[Joolsplus2]

Yes, there is absolutely a reason you may NOT use LATCH in the center: Subaru strictly prohibits it, and it may cause the seat to fail in a crash. (Yes, annoying, I know, but I don't want your baby to be the crash test dummy that has to find out the hard way that it's dangerous, you know?)

Swedish tethering is for both comfort, recline, stability, and safety...Particularly important is that it prevents rebound so the baby's head doesn't slam into the seatback (though the injuries from non britax seats are limited to minor facial fractures that don't really cause any injury issues)...I know it's hard to find a good spot to tether in some Subarus...you really have to move the front seats way forward and get down on your knees and dig around looking for a place to tie that tether connector strap, or see if you can thread it like a thread through a needle between the carpet and the front seat track...or if you have electric seats, there is often a huge metal crossbar on the bottom of the seats, and you can tie the strap around that, as it is quite secure.

Anyway, it sounds like things are improving as you keep trying :)

Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[duvie]

OOOOh- I had a bad feeling that the way we had it wasn't o.k. :(

Which do you think is the best option (and I won't hold you liable :))- center position with belt which allows some movement side to side, or passenger outboard with LATCH? I was originally completely against the outboard, but since I do have side air bags and LATCH seems to get it tighter, I am leaning towards this. DH thinks we should put it in the middle. Is the Marathon/Subaru LATCH combination as safe as the belt? (isn't LATCH sometimes less safe or am I imagining things?)

DH just asked me if "DH" stands for "dumb husband"-- I was happy to tell him NO! :)

Duvie

[Joolsplus2]

LOL about dh :D

Well, you can give it a few more good shots in the center with the seatbelt...maybe there will be one time that it just "works"...and one inch of movement side to side is really a lot..you might get it in not quite rock solid, but with a teeny wiggle, and that's really fine. But I think I'd be agreeing with you to put it outboard, since it's SO easy and SO tight and you do have airbags, and rearfacing is super super super safe and the back seat in general is super super safe...well, you get the picture ;)

Oh, on LATCH being less safe... there's a 5 degree angle of recline beyond government limits, when the 34 pound 3 yo dummy is in a 30 mph crash test, with no barrier in front of it to slow it down (like, say, the back of the front seats!), but the dummy still stays totally contained and protected in the seat...so, all in all, I wouldn't sweat the LATCH vs. belt issue :)

Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[duvie]

Thank you again for all of your time. DH and I will struggle with it tonight.

I just read in another post about the foam in the Marathon. I thought that it was packing foam-- oops! What is it for? (I threw away the center piece, but still have the side ones).

Duvie

[Joolsplus2]

If you take the foam out of the bottom, then baby is sitting basically in holes, especially as they get bigger and heavier. I also think it has something to do with energy absorption for the whole seat...you want the car, and then the seat, to absorb energy before it gets to the baby and causes injury, and a solid plastic shell would transfer more energy to the baby, whereas EPS foam will absorb it. Sort of a bike helmet for baby's butt, lol.
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[carrie81566]

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but I was on the other day asking about tethers in Subarus. We have 3 bolt/slot things in the roof of the rear cargo area (2001 Outback wagon) for tethers. Are we supposed to tie it to the floor instead? I don't get it. Sorry to be such a dunce.
Carrie

[Joolsplus2]

Those bolts on the top are for when the convertible seat is forward facing, and tethering it to the floor under the front seat is something you can do with *only* Britax convertibles when rearfacing, to get a more stable installation and better recline.

That's actually a great question, sometimes I forget not everyone knows all this esoteric stuff :D
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[carrie81566]

Never mind--I just went back and reread Julie's response to my other post--the roof tether spots are for FF, so I won't get to use them for years!
WHY IS THIS SO HARD??
Carrie

[carrie81566]

LOL Julie, we must both be online at the same time. You have the patience of a saint to answer all our Qs. Unbelievable that one of the most important pieces of baby equipment is so esoteric...so ever-changing...so damn hard...that otherwise intelligent people throw up their hands and beg the police department for help. I didn't need help from kind strangers to choose a bassinet or a stroller or a bouncy chair (although I accepted it when offered!).

And why do so many cars NOT have LATCH in the center when even I have managed to grasp that it's the safest place for the seat?

We have two Snugrides (ds is 4 1/2 mos old, 16ish lbs) in our cars that have been installed 3 ways. Carseat tech at fancy baby store installed mine with lots of grunting and shoving, used the locking clip, warned me not to leave the handle up (the undesirable rollbar effect). It came loose and began to tilt way over to the side--probably our fault--I never showed dh how to snap the actual seat in and out of the base, so he manhandled it trying to figure it out in the hospital parking lot.

So we took it to the local police to fix. They used 3 pool noodles and 2 big guys and did some fancy twisting of the belt. Warned me not to leave the handle up, but didn't know about the rollbar effect--said it could splinter in a crash, which I suppose is true.

DH finally got second base installed in his car at a different fancy baby store. No pool noodles. Nonslip pad under seat. Big lecture about our Lands End fleece cover. Can't remember if he used the locking clip.

So frustrating when all you want is one right answer! Sorry to ramble on. Thanks again for helping everyone on this board.
Carrie

[Joolsplus2]

And did you know...you CAN leave the handle up in the snugride? I bet none of those techs showed you the page in the manual where it says so, or knows the Graco product rep on a CPS list reported that it was a major policy change and showed the letter from their head engineers that said it was ok to leave up. ;)

I swear, if you aren't plugging away at this stuff every single day, you'll miss something big...why? why? why? It's insane! I love my job, but I'd trade it for nothing in a heartbeat if it meant parents could do this easily and by themselves, and 100% instead of 1% of seats were used properly...

Anyway, I don't mind answering questions over and over...I keep wondering when I'm going to burn out and move on, but it hasn't happened yet ;) (besides, I'm sitting here watching a movie with my kids that's not very interesting, lol)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 2 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx