Why do Euro infant car seats only have 3 pt harnesses?

[MamaParis]

OK - I just have too much time on my hands I guess - but I was wondering if any of you all know why the infant seats in the European market only have 3 pt harnesses?
Like even the ones with a US equaalent with a 5 pt harness - still only have a 3 pt harness in the Euro market.
Like the US Primo Viaggio has a 5 pt - the European one has a 3 pt.
and so on.

Why is that?

Also, whats their deal with not having any bases on their infant seats?

And does there just happen to be a European carseat with a 5 pt harness and a bsae with LATCH?

Just thinking about this I guess and I couldn't find any answers. I have a friend who has a Eurp infant seat and yes, its a nice seat - but why would one choose a 3 pt harness over a 5 pt and why would one choose to HAVE to install the seat over and over and over again without a base and without LATCH? or isofix or whatever they call it.

just wondering ...

[MamaParis]

and also ... isn't there like some Chicco infant seat coming out thats supposed to be way cool?

any word or info about that one?

[murphydog77]

Hi Paris. I don't know anything about the European seats. My guess is that they just haven't done as extensive research as the Americans have regarding the 3-pt. vs. 5-pt. harnesses. As for the base vs. baseless install, I think they may have a requirement that the shoulder belt be routed behind the infant seat back which would mean that you couldn't use a base. It's actually quite easy to install a baseless seat that way, so it's not too much of a hassle, but still there's so much room for error.

The last I heard about the Chicco Key Fit is that it's due out this month. I really liked it when I had a chance to try it out in May.

Heather, CPS Tech
http://www.CarSeatSite.com

[momtojoshua2002]

I can't speak for other European countries but Sweden advocates the 3 point harness stating that in case of an accident, the 5-point harness keeps the shoulders in place (obviously) but moves the pressure that the accident would create from the shoulders up to the head instead. So the neck and head are impacted as a result of this.

The 3-point harness allows for the pressure in case of an accident or if someone just steps on the breaks very hard, to be more evenly distributed over the body.

But then also, Sweden advocates that you keep your child rear facing until 4 or 5 years of age. I know the child has to be at least 30 Ibs to be forward facing, but they do advocate that you keep them RF until about 4, because the risk of injury in case of an accident is reduced from 95% (FF) to 50% (RF).

They do have 5-point harnesses too (I believe the car seats come with that clip that you can attach if you want to???), but advocates for the use of 3-point if possible.

I'll do more research later today and see what I can find (I can contact someone with questions as well), but this is what I could find off hand, and what I know from my own experience. When we go to visit family and get a rental car with a car seat, they always attach it RF for DS (last time we went was last summer when he was 2.5 yrs old), and the seat had 3-p harness.

[MamaParis]

Thanks Heather and Ida ...


I'd love to know more about the 3 pt vs the 5 pt thing, if you find anything else out Ida.

And thats good to hear about the Chicco infant seat coming out soon. :)

Thanks guys!

[momtojoshua2002]

Ok, I’m waiting for an email back for clarification, because I did find some information that leads me to believe that the RF car seats are being replaced with 5 point harnesses in Sweden, although if I go to Britax’s Swedish web page, the seats featured there are all 3 point…..

But I just wanted to clarify what I had posted this morning, as I think I misunderstood what I read at that point.

This is what I now know:

1.All children in Sweden should be RF until about 4 years of age.
2.Most seats that you would buy here in the US that are convertible are only RF in Sweden. Britax has one seat that can be used both RF and FF; the “Two-Way�.
3.I found one post about the Two-Way having a 5 point harness but the pictures don’t show that so I’m utterly confused over this. Will wait for clarification, maybe I’ll email Britax in Sweden as well. Maybe what they call 5 point we call 3 point??
4.Having said this, a 5 point harness should not be used in FF. This is due to the facts I posted about this morning (about the head injuries as a result of the shoulders being restrained) but I misunderstood what they were talking about. They were talking about the car’s 3 point seat belt, not the car seat’s 3 point harness. So since you should not use the 5 point harness in the car seat in Sweden for FF, you need to wait with putting your child FF until he/she is 4, so he/she is old enough so that you can use your car seat AND secure your child with the car’s seatbelt only! The harness in the car seat is at that point removed completely.

I’m not sure if I’m making sense………. But I guess bottom line is that car seats in Sweden don’t have 5 point harnesses for FF, because they should be in a RF until 4 yrs of age, and at that time, they are big enough to be in a seat where the child and the seat can be secured with the car seat belt only.

That still doesn’t answer the questions as to why there are RF infant car seats out there that have only 3 point harness, so I’m still investigating this one.

Also, I’m finding this extremely interesting myself and will now keep DD RF as long as possible (DS should be fine, he’s 3.5 yrs old). But imagine a child that’s 1 yrs of age where the head is 25% of its body, and you have this child FF. 5 point harness aside, the impact that the head and neck will take if there is a crash is enormous compared to the child being RF (about 6 times as much pressure when it’s FF compared to RF!).

Thanks Paris for getting me to investigate this, because I’m now super concerned about FF placement of car seats and have to do more research..... and sorry for kinda twisting the subject but I find the different rules very interesting! (I know the original question was regarding the infant seats and 3 pt harness, and I'm waiting to hear back re: this and the lack of infant seat base as well.)

[DisneyLovnMom]

If you look at Bebe Confort, their infant seats are recommended for short trips only, under an hour and a half. The Windoo Carrycot is what's recommended for longer car trips.

FWIW all of DHs cousins who've had babies recently use the stroller with carrycot or a pram, they're not using the car seat outside of the car, it's just a different way of thinking.

I haven't seen a LATCH seat but I haven't looked recently either. Bebe Confort and Renault have an isofix system for the infant seats, we just haven't had a chance to try it out since we have an Opel and DILs have an older Renault that we don't put the kids in.

[MamaParis]

Very interesting!

I'm so glad you are taking the time to post all of this - I always like to save this stuff for future reference!

I'm really big on extended RF. My DD is 2.5 and is RF still as well as my one year old DS ... others may think I'm nuts and probably 90% of the people where I live turn their babies to FF at like 6-9 months old - but I feel better with the kids RF until they can't RF anymore! ;)

Thanks again Ida and please post back with any more info you find out!

I always hear conflicting opinions on whos testing methods are better .. US, European etc ... and I'd like to be able to one day just sit down and look at all of the stuff I've save over the last couple years and decide for myself! :)


Thanks again!

[MamaParis]

Oh yes, I'm really big on not using the infant seat outside of the car!

I have my prams and newborn friendly strollers and baby carriers for transporting my baby outside of the car as well :)


I always try to think as to what I would prefer if I were a little newborn out and about.

Would I want to be snugly secured into a plastic carseat with no where to move? Or Laying in a carrycot with space to stretch and move and BREATHE! ;)
Or carried and so on.


I'm not sure how I feel about the car beds like the Windoo ... but the Maxi Cosi Cabrio abd Bebe COnfort Infant seats have always appealed to me for their newborn friendliness as well as those DEEP side wings and larger limits ...

Thanks!

[american_mama]

I'll throw these out here more as ideas than facts since my memory is murky about what I read and the reliability of the source.

1. I think there are differences in the seatbelts that might be used ot attach a car seat, and accounting for that variation is one reason car seat standards differ in countries. In the US, I think lap belts in back seats were allowed much long than in Europe , so car seat regulations in the US have to account for the range of cars on the roads. THat might relate to requiring a base.

2. Not sure if there is a significant difference in safety between an infant rearfacing seat with 3 vs. 5 point harness. I think a CPS tech on these boards implied there wasn't much difference.

3. I think car seats in Europe cannot have a chest clip because there can be only one release point for car seats (for a faster release? Seems unlikely that in a life-threatening situation, there would be enough time for speed of release to be a factor.)

4. Americans expect high convenience in all their products, and the snap in and out mentality of using a base suits us perfectly. Europeans just may not demand this convenience as much.

5. I read car seat brochures in Belgium that say babies can be put in the FRONT seat, rearfacing, as long as there are no airbags, and I saw people do it there. I don't think you'd ever read anything in the US that suggested doing this.

6. I do believe that a car seat directly installed with a seat belt is more secure than one installed in a base, where it's the base rather than the seat that is actually belted in. So maybe bases are considered inferior in Europe even if they are convenient.

I just gave away my Euro car seat today to someone here in the US who really wanted it despite the lack of a base, so I was just talking about this this morning. I put it on freecycle and someone else wanted it just as a backup seat and really wish I had ignored first come, first served and given it to him.

[MamaParis]

Thanks!

I just sat there the other day and looked side by side at the Cabrio and the Snugride and the Cabrio just seemed like a much more solid and safe carseat to me. The deep side wings were awesome - there is a nice adjustment that you can make for a newborn or older child to adjust the seat angle IN the seat.
The padding was nice and ample. Everything was easy to use!

Yeah there was no base but it was amazingly easy to install (HAD to try it out just for fun!)
Yeah there was only a 3 pt harness and no chest clip and a handle that stays up when in the car (all totally differet than the US seats) - but it still seemed like a better seat that whats on the market here in the states.

But anyway, thanks for your thoughts on the topic! Good stuff ot think about and consider.

Out of curiosity - what Euro seat did you have? :)

[momtojoshua2002]

Ok, got some more information.

Like another posted said, the chest clips (not sure what they really are called) are not allowed, at least not in Sweden. This is becuase in the case of a wreck or fire, when seconds count, that extra step may add time to getting the child out of the seat, so it's seen as being in the way, basically. (That's what I was told in an email today).

Since it's not allowed, none of the car seats I've seen on pictures features them, so most seats look like they have 3point harnesses. Just got it verified that in Sweden, only 5 point harnesses are used. Again, all car seats up until at least 3 years old are RF, so you wouldn't have to worry about the 5point harness in FF and the whole head/neck pressure in an accident.

I'm waiting for clarification from Britax in Sweden to why the infant seat Tot-A-Lot has a Y-harness (isn't this like a 3point harness?), when all other seats up until 3-4 yrs of age have a 5point harness. (and this was the guy too that told me that all seats nowadays in Sweden have 5pt harnesses only until they can sit FF, when the car's seatbelt is used instead.) So I'm a bit confused over that. Considering it's Friday night there now I may not hear back until Monday.

One thing I have noticed though with my own DD is that when she's in her snug ride, I tend to put pants on her despite the heat. Why? Because the pieces of her seat belt that come up from the seat and goes over her thighs (does that make sense?) kind of cuts into her legs if she's only in a onesie! At least it seems that way, and the only way they wouldn't do that is if I would loosen the belt, which obviously, I shouldn't! Now, DD is chunky, but she's about 24.5 inches tall and 15 Ibs, and technically should fit in her seat for another 1.5 inches or 7 Ibs! So maybe by having the Y-belt instead, that eliminates the belt "cutting" into the legs when they are that young? Just a theory based on my own experience.....

I'll let you know what Britax says about the Y-harness.