What's the point of car seats?

[allthetimemom]

Most of us here seem to be very safety conscious and want to get the best possible seat for the size of our children and our vehicle and to use it correctly. Yeah us!

I'm asking for your help here...

I have a just 2 year old and a just 5 year old.

I'm getting criticism and pressure to "lighten up" on the neurosis of the car seat thing.

1) Don't bring car seats on vacation because they are too much to deal with and we won't be riding in vehicles very much.

2) Okay, bring the car seat for the 2 year old, but the booster seat is isn't worth lugging for the 5 year old. There was an article out at one point saying booster seats don't significantly reduce injury better than a seatbelt. Lighten up. Child is fine not in a booster seat for an occasional short ride.

3) It's fine to take 2 year old and 5 year old 15 miles on tour buses, school buses, or city buses that don't have seatbelts for car seats. Buses are much safer than cars. Safe to just hold onto child.

4)Family members X &Y don't restrain 5 year olds. It's fine! You don't need to either. They wouldn't skip restraint if it wasn't sfe. And expert Z confirms they are doing the right thing, so stop being a wee willy worrier.

Here's the thing. There are going to be occasions where we won't be able to do something or go somewhere because I don't feel it is safe for 2 year old and 5 year old to travel unrestrained. That's going to yield major fights with certain people. So I either have to take one for the team and take kids along unrestrained, or fight WWIII to refuse their participation.

Any documentation for me? Thanks!

[elliput]

Most US states have laws regarding the use of car safety seats for children under a certain height and weight. See if you can find information your the state government website, then inform your critizers that you will be breaking the law and would be subject to heavy fines if anything happens. Hopefully this will help.

Example from MI http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,%207-123-1564-113709--,00.html

NHTSA Information http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.9f8c7d6359e0e9bbbf30811060008a0c/?quickLinksSelect=%2Fportal%2Fsite%2Fnhtsa%2Fmenui tem.9f8c7d6359e0e9bbbf30811060008a0c%2F

ETA New Link - This page has links to all state car seat laws.
http://babyproducts.about.com/od/statecarseatlaws/

[o_mom]

>1) Don't bring car seats on vacation because they are too much
>to deal with and we won't be riding in vehicles very much.

One time is too much - the consequences of not having a seat, are too high IMO to risk it. It is illegal in EVERY state to have a 2 yo unrestrained.

>2) Okay, bring the car seat for the 2 year old, but the
>booster seat is isn't worth lugging for the 5 year old. There
>was an article out at one point saying booster seats don't
>significantly reduce injury better than a seatbelt. Lighten
>up. Child is fine not in a booster seat for an occasional
>short ride.
>

Depending on the state, it may be illegal. Here (IN) they must use a booster to age 8. A backless booster is not a huge deal to "lug" around and they are safer.

http://depts.washington.edu/booster/why_booster_seats.html#harm

>3) It's fine to take 2 year old and 5 year old 15 miles on
>tour buses, school buses, or city buses that don't have
>seatbelts for car seats. Buses are much safer than cars. Safe
>to just hold onto child.

Most experts agree that busses are not safe, but it is cost prohibitive to install/use seatbelts.

http://www.ncsbs.org/testimonies/seat_belt_background.htm

>4)Family members X &Y don't restrain 5 year olds. It's fine!
>You don't need to either. They wouldn't skip restraint if it
>wasn't sfe. And expert Z confirms they are doing the right
>thing, so stop being a wee willy worrier.

X & Y aren't the parents of your child. You worry about X & Y's children because obviously expert Z hasn't even bothered to read the AAP statement on boosters.

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;109/3/550

>
>Here's the thing. There are going to be occasions where we
>won't be able to do something or go somewhere because I don't
>feel it is safe for 2 year old and 5 year old to travel
>unrestrained. That's going to yield major fights with certain
>people. So I either have to take one for the team and take
>kids along unrestrained, or fight WWIII to refuse their
>participation.

My favorite arguement is to just show them the crash test video. That has had more impact on me than almost anything else.

http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2002/videos/test2002/frontcrash/maxicosipriori.mpg

http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seiten/kisitest_2002/videos/test2002/frontcrash/maxicosirodi.mpg

http://depts.washington.edu/booster/images/video/DRIV754_6yr_lap.mpg

[kellyotn]

I said it just yesterday in a previous post. I know a man who lost his toddler in a crash. It was several years ago, and the boy was in a car seat that was legal and acceptable to the time. But, by today's standards he could have been safer (ie rear facing). Would he have lived? Its hard to think about, but given his specific type of injury, its possible he could have lived. His older sister did live and did not suffer the same injury.

"Won't be riding in vehicles very much" is still too much. How can anyone guarantee that that day won't be The Day an accident happens? If the child is hurt b/c of that "one time", I don't think I could live with myself. If we had crystal balls, no one would get on doomed planes or drive on fateful days....

There was a sad story on the news awhile back about a boy's very expensive wheelchair getting lost at the airport. He was in the wheelchair because "just one time" grandma wanted to hold him on her lap in the car.

Another local story, a family of four was on their way home from the hospital with the new baby. Mom was worried about the toddler's transition to big sisterhood. She held the girl on her lap "just this once". (The extended family swears they were very contientous about car seats normally.) They were hit head on by a man passing in a no-passing zone. The dad and toddler died. The last I remember, the mom was pretty messed up w/ head injury. The infant was fine.

I don't know much about buses. We don't ride in them and they just aren't on my radar.

I hope the children of family members X & Y stay safe. They are likely only still "fine" because there has been *no accident*. Same thing that our parents say, "We didn't have car seats and you're fine", well yeah we just by the grace of God never had an accident to find out what would have happened to my 6 year old self standing up in the backseat. Sadly, I'm sure not all families were so lucky to be saying that about their grandchildren's over-the-top car seats.

I don't know who expert Z is, but I can find plenty of credible experts and crash tests and laws that disagree.

As annoying as car seats are, they are a lot better than medical bills or longterm care or wheelchairs or funerals.

Stick to your guns! :)

[Piglet]

While I am a self-proclaimed car sear nut, and agree with EVERYTHING that has been said in the previous posts, I tend to see buses very differently. I guess, my understanding on buses, is that they are generally quite safe, given their size more than anything else. I even recall Julie mentioning that buses were pretty safe in a previous post (about a week ago, I recall). If I had to choose between taking 2 kids in a car with questionable car seats or riding the bus with no car seat, I would opt for the bus. That is how our last family vacation turned out. We were in Israel and I brought both kids' seats, but the cars there were very hard to install a seat into properly - lack of seatbelts, weird small seats, no auto-retract on the belts, etc. We made a very conscious choice to use the buses as much as possible because they seemed much safer by comparison. I am sure if you asked most moms in NY whether they prefer a taxi without a carseat or the subway, they would say the subway (and buses by inference). Maybe I am naive about it, but I would the city bus on vacation with the kids without a moment's thought.

[Joolsplus2]

Heck, I'd rather ride on a bus with no seat than in even a safe car with safe carseats :). But yeah, exactly, buses are very, very safe.

And another thumbs up to everything everyone else said... www.chop.edu might have more info, too.

And finding what the other parents ARE worried about can be a leverage point... why bother having a fence around the pool? Who cares about childproof caps on medicine? Poisons under the sink? None of those are nearly as deadly as getting in the car...

And the final comeback when you've lost all patience... 'my kid, my rules!'

:)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[allthetimemom]

Thanks!

So you guys think it is safe enough for 2 year old and 5 year old to go on a tour bus excursion on normal roads without seatbelts? I'm unwilling to risk them, but if it is safe within the relatively norms of safety, it would be a lot more convenient if they could ride on a bus (sometimes tour buses are school buses).

Second, I use the Britax Parkway, which is awkward to pack. I'm debating the Compass folding booster, or the Graco backless Turbo Booster. Of course the Compass looks safer to me. Is there enough saftey difference to warrant the difference in carrying weight?

Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and expert Z is indeed a pediatrician who thinks 6 year olds don't need to be in booster seats if the seat belt fits properly. I don't know... at 6 I'd still booster, whether seatbelt is at shoulder or not...

[kellyotn]

Well, I can tell you from my experience, lots of peds are NOT car seat experts. ;) They learn something once and that's it. No matter that times and rules and best practices change. My ped's car seat flier was dated 1992 I think, and included the now defunct sheild-booster. sigh. I love love love him he's SO current on everything else, I was disappointed to see that.

I have a dear friend who is a general prac doc who sees lots of babies/kids, she said she was at least honest when her patients asked about car seats - she said she just didn't know what the "best" thing was and refered them to the local fire-station who had car seat techs. (Until she herself had a child, now she's totally up to date.) Another doc in her practice was giving out car seat info that was very out of sync with the times (probably dated to his teenage children). Sadly, I'm sure lots of parents thought it gospel.

I guess it is indeed possible that a large 6 year old would fit into a car w/o a booster. Its all about the 5 point test that other's have mentioned http://www.carseat.org/Boosters/630.htm. In my state however the law is now 8 years / 80 lbs. :) I guess an 80 lb, 6 year old might be "legal" though... not sure of the fine print (if its "and" or "or".)

Good luck on your trip, I hope someone chimes in about which booster would work best for you. :)

[Joolsplus2]

It probably wouldn't be so bad to just get a backless booster for the 5 yo... or a RideSafer Travel Vest is easier to carry (Get a cheap Turbo booster, you can pack the back if you want, or just bring the base, and then you can use it as a spare seat for years to come, it has better side impact design than the Compass and fits a wider variety of kids better).

And here's the booster info that Dr's should be following... http://tinyurl.com/rlw4o
(4 foot 9 is really it...it's a pretty darn rare TALL 8 yo who is 4 foot 9!)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[tg_canada]

>So you guys think it is safe enough for 2 year old and 5 year
>old to go on a tour bus excursion on normal roads without
>seatbelts? I'm unwilling to risk them, but if it is safe
>within the relatively norms of safety, it would be a lot more
>convenient if they could ride on a bus (sometimes tour buses
>are school buses).

I think it will depend on where you are travelling. For example, a bus on a normal road in Jamaica or Dominican Republic is dangerous for people of any age! Instead of buses we took taxis because at least they had seatbelts, although finding one with seatbelts that worked properly was a chore...