Well disciplined 3 year olds

[mom2acrew]

http://www.windsorpeak.com/babybargains/blog/B40737805/C1268733385/E20060404170536/index.html

So how many of you have 3 year old that would not reach for a dropped toy in the car? Seems to me the author of this blog hasn't had much real life experience with 3 year olds. Not to mention on many booster seats when a child does lean out of postion the seat belt does not alway retract which means a child is inadequately restrained because a seat belt is too loose.

Yes some booster seats are approved for use at 30# but that doesn't mean a 3 year old is ready for one and I believe it has nothing do with discipline. Just because a booster seat passes a controlled crash test does not mean it will work well in a real life crash. I hope everyone reading this blog will do their own research and decide for themselves wether their 3 year old is ready to use just a seat belt in a booster seat to be restrained. A booster seat that starts at 30# is great for those 5 year olds who outgrow their harnessed seats by height but do not yet weigh 40#. Safety standards are rapidly changing to accomodate children over 40# for less amounts of money. In the state of Maine anyone needing a higher harness weight seat can get one for $70 through Safe Kids, you do not HAVE to pay a lot of money (Britax) to keep your child safe.

[o_mom]

ITA here. I do not understand their comment that kids can go to a booster right from a 40 lb convertible. I don't know of ANYONE that has had a convertible last to 40 lbs, let alone 4 years old. They are all outgrown before that, sometimes as young as 21 months.

[Scatterbunny]

Makes absolutely no sense to me, either. My dd outgrew her convertible by height at 2.5 years old and 33 pounds. Even when she hit 40 pounds at 3.5 she was in NO WAY ready for a booster seat full-time. Discipline can only go so far, and discipline takes time. So we should just put our kids into boosters and hope for the best, while we're teaching them proper car safety? No--we keep them in a harness WHILE we teach them car safety, until they can be trusted with the responsibility of using the booster seat and belts properly. It only takes a second to be out of position when a crash occurs for a tragedy to happen. The driver should be as focused on the road and other drivers as possible, and can't always be watching for an out-of-position child.

Not to mention there is research showing that younger kids have larger heads in proportion to their bodies, therefore more stress is placed on the head and neck in a crash, and that these younger kid suffer more head and neck injuries due to this. I wish I could find the link! Argh.

[kellyotn]

Hmmm. For me, the mark that the article missed is that 40 lb seats get outgrown WELL before 40 lbs because they are often TOO SHORT. Just make the seats taller and more likely to last until 40 lbs and lots of parents would be pleased and not have to decide whether or not to use a booster "too soon".

Yeah, I suppose I could just put my 3.5 year old into a booster and discipline and yell and worry and hope she stays in proper position, but that doesn't seem like the best choice. How could I forgive myself if she's injured in an accident where I KNOW that she was riding in a second best arrangement?

And, what about sleeping?? We drive a lot and I love the fact that she sleeps so well in the car and love that I do not have to worry about her falling out of position.

Seems the author thinks we are a bit over-the-top. Oh well! :) Guilty as charged.

[Splash]

I guess when my 3 year old fell asleep in the car, I should have just beat her? More discipline will surely stop tired kids from falling asleep.
I only have the last 2 editions of BBB, I haven't bought the most recent. I enjoy the books for the most part, but have always found the car seat advice very poor and often incorrect.

And I don't understand WHY they advocate a baby basket, but say that the extra expense of a marathon etc is not worth it.

SnugRide- $120
ComfortSport- $110
TurboBooster- $90

Total- $220


Marathon- $240
Backless Booster- $15

Total- $255

I refuse to believe that there are many parents who cannot afford/justify another $35 over the course of 8 years.

[o_mom]

Ummm, you forgot the extra $100 in there for the Cargo, because there is no way the ComfortSport is going to make it to 3 years, throw in a FP Safe Voyage and you get:

Option 1 - $320

Option 2 - $195

Now, which one is the bargain? ;-)

[kellyotn]

Yes, let's recommend the ComfortSport where there is zero chance of a child making it to anywhere near 40 lbs because it is so, so short! :eyeroll:

[Kat_Mom2D_J_andRuthie]

I saw this and it angered me so much.

My 2yr old is 35lbs... 37"... I don't know if you read the comment that was left, but it was mine.... so I'll save everyone the big details, but there is no WAY she would even FIT in a booster, let alone sit in it properly... and neither would a 3yr old... now I'm not saying that there aren't exceptions, just as some 5yr olds are not mature enough, there are probably some very mature 3yr olds... but harnessed is always safer... and I think that is the point here.

That's so great about Maine's program... wish more states did that.

Kat

[Kat_Mom2D_J_andRuthie]

well, clearly we are supposed to punish our kids when they are sleeping.

ARGHHHH.

And what about the fact that all the worrying, yelling, etc. will distract us from DRIVING... more seats that harness longer that aren't as expensive would lead to less accidents, I would bet ANYTHING on that.

[Kat_Mom2D_J_andRuthie]

or how about this one... since a 40lb limit seat is all you need supposedly.

Graco safeseat 1 - 130 (rounded up before tax... cheapest version)
Graco Safeseat 2 - 130 (rounded up before tax... cheapest versions)
Graco Safeseat 3 (Turbobooster with high back, because ideally all children would ride in high backs) - 50 (rounded up before tax - cheaper version)

Total - 310

now... two other alternatives

Harnessing to seatbelt

Cosco Scenera for birth - outgrown - 50 dollars (buy it while you're pregnant, but weight for a sale)

Britax Regent - 250 dollars (rounded up... albeebaby.com regular price... free shipping on all orders)

Total - 300 dollars
You save - 10 dollars and never have to use a booster seat.

Harnessing till mature enough for a booster

Graco Snugride2 - 90 dollars (rounded up before tax)
Fisher- Price Safe Voyage Deluxe - 180 (rounded up before tax)
Graco Turbobooster - 50 dollars (same as the other one)

Your total - 320 dollars
You spend - 10 dollars for 3-4yrs more in the harnesses

what most people do who rely on both baby bargains and the consumer reports.

graco snugride - 90 dollars
Evenflo Titan - 80 dollars
OMG - we hate this seat!!!!!!!
Graco Platinum Cargo - 100 dollars
oh, no... we don't like it as a booster and/or our child still needs a booster after outgrowing it as one
Graco Turbobooster - 50 dollars

Your total - 320
You spent more than you would harnessing longer, but you saved money.... right? well, not a lot when you consider that you have to dispose of all these seats and the guilt of the landfill alone may take a year off your life... and you spent 10 more dollars than what the baby bargains book would have you thinking would be the most you should ever spend

the other most common way people who rely on baby bargains new recommendations and consumer reports spend their money

Graco Snugride - 90 dollars
Alpha Omega (this will be my last carseat, right?) - 160 dollars (midrange version rounded up)
OH no... my 2.5yr old just outgrew the harnesses... he's not ready for a booster, is he?
Graco Platinum Cargo - 100
Oh no, need another booster
Graco Turbobooster - 50

Your total - 400

Please.... everyone... go to the bulletin boards and seek the techs and geeks... so you avoid the stress, the anxiety, the money, and keep kids harnessed longer.

Hope you have enjoyed my little analysis.

[mom2acrew]

Maine also has a great booster seat law! We are very lucky. More SK coalitions may offer something as well, always worth a call.

[stillplayswithbarbies]

wow. I'm guessing Alan and Denise don't read their own boards? If they did, they surely wouldn't have written something that would alienate their most active posters in this forum. And how could they not know that seats are outgrown by height long before they are outgrown by weight, when it gets discussed here over and over?

I'm not even going to address the "discipline" comment. I guess all 3 year olds are the same?

They really missed the mark on this one, in my opinion. I wonder what the agenda is?

[jeanum]

I'm extremely dismayed, to say the least, to see influential baby product reviewers and authors make such a statement about boosters for 3 year olds, especially given the known safety advantages and advocacy of techs and posters on this very message board for keeping kids harnessed as long as possible. I view this as a huge setback to child passenger safety given the author's huge following and influence, and I hope they reconsider their position.

[alandenisefields]

Ok, we are walking out to the woodshed here at the ranch . . .

Yes, in retrospect, we screwed up with that blog entry and we just updated it. Sorry---we dashed that off after all the publicity on the car seat story, thinking the media was doing a slapdash job at the topic. And then we added to that by doing a slapdash blog entry!

So, we apologize---you folks are right. It is best for a three year old to be in a harnessed seat, for all the reasons cited above! Not sure what we were thinking!

Thanks for letting us know and again, we goofed!

alan & denise

PS We do read the message boards on our site! But with 1000 posts a day, it does take us a while to see things. Always email us directly if there is something you think needs to be corrected!

[Kat_Mom2D_J_andRuthie]

You guys do mean well... and I think it's great that you read the boards and the comments. I think you edited in a timely manner.

I'd love to see you perhaps promote this board more when you do a topic such as carseats.

Not only are their certified techs posting, but with all the moms who know their safety info, it's a great way for moms to get advice on what seat will fit their needs best and what will fit their cars.

I think it takes a big person to admit when they made an error, and it really shows a lot of character that you did so.

[jeanum]

Thanks for responding to everyone's feedback and updating your blog entry.

[kellyotn]

Let me take my 1000th post (how'd THAT happen?) to thank you for updating the blog. This board is SUCH a wealth of information. So many babies and kids are safer than they would be without the knowledge and advice available here.

Hey, I love getting stroller advice and where to find deals on household gear, but nothing is more important that how my kids ride in the car. Knowing a parent who has lost a young toddler in a car accident really brings things into focus. It was a few short years ago, but in that time, recommendations and seats have already changed and would hopefully save a child today in a similar accident. (Specifically, rear facing past 1 year and 20 lbs.)

What always hits me is just how complicated it all is, that's why the knowledge here is so important. I know LATCH was supposed to make things easier, but I wonder exactly how many parents are misusing it (using center position where you cannot, etc.) When you go to BRU, there is no information telling you the slot heights and that a ComfortSport will likely only last until even tiny kids are two years old. (Not to mention the grossly inaccurate and dangerous information I've heard their sales people say.....)

THANK YOU to all the techs and otherwise knowledgable people who post here.

If all the hoopla surrounding the "fat kids and outgrowing car seats" articles brings more user friendly seats to market, then its a good thing. I'll always think the articles should have been "short to average height kids and outgrowing car seats", but the end result is all that matters.

[alandenisefields]

Yes, we would like to take a second to thank all the car seat techs and other CPS experts who take their time to post to our boards. Their wealth of knowledge on this issue is amazing---and we are in their debt.
There is no way we could answer all the questions posted in these boards!

Now, if some CPS techs think advice on our site, blog or book is wrong, we want to hear from you! Please email us at [email protected]. We are ALWAYS willing to hear criticism, suggestions, advice, etc. Our door is open.

Thanks,
Alan & Denise
authors, BABY BARGAINS

[Scatterbunny]

>If all the hoopla surrounding the "fat kids and outgrowing car
>seats" articles brings more user friendly seats to market,
>then its a good thing. I'll always think the articles should
>have been "short to average height kids and outgrowing car
>seats", but the end result is all that matters.

While I agree, I guess I need to respectfully point out (again) that the article was only written for one reason: because of a new study published in Pediatrics magazine regarding the rising number of children who are overweight or obese.

If it were not for this study, the CPS issue would not have even made it into the papers. Therefore it makes sense that the article would focus on kids outgrowing their seats by weight.

You are right though, it's the end result that matters. I did encourage the AP writer of the story to do more stories about CPS issues in the future, hopefully highlighting how most kids outgrow most seats by height before weight.

And big thanks to Alan and Denise Fields for updating the blog entry, it doesn't make my blood boil anymore. :)

I've got one of those almost-5yos who is in no way ready for a booster seat full-time. If our shoulderbelts locked, I would consider it, but I can't be watching her with an eagle-eye every second when I'm supposed to be driving. Plus, a harness provides better restraint in side impacts and rollovers.

My almost-5yo hit 40 pounds at 3.5 years old but had already outgrown her 40 pound weight limit convertible seat a full year earlier. I COULD have wasted $100 on a Graco CarGo with taller slots than her convertible seat to get her to 40 pounds, but why? Why spend $100 on a seat that would last her a year, and make a crappy booster?

The price breakdowns in this thread were great. I am a parent who spent much too much (infant seat, Alpha Omega, Nania Airway, Britax Husky...) because I didn't know any better. I thought the AO would be the last seat I would need for my dd, not knowing about the incredibly low top slots. I bought the Airway because she outgrew the AO so suddenly and I didn't have enough $$ for any other higher weight limit seat at the time. It's nice to see others thinking the same way I do: that a $250 seat purchase might seem pricey initially, but spread out over time it actually saves you money.

[mom2acrew]

Just following up with a Thank you for changing your blog!

[o_mom]

I appreciate that you took the time to update this. However, I still take contention with your claim that "..for most kids, an infant seat followed by convertible (up to 40 pounds) and then a belt-positioning booster should do the trick."

Unfortunately, as much as the manufacturers would like us to believe, there are very few convertible seats that will take a child to booster age. Almost everyone ends up buying another harnessed combo seat, such as the Graco Cargo. Then they are stuck with a sub-optimal booster when they reach 40 lbs. This is especially true of the mid-range seats (ComfortSport, Triumph, etc.) since the top slots are very low. Many of these seats are outgrown at 2 and 3 years old by very normal to small size kids. I posted in the comment that my very small 24 month old outgrew the Comfort Sport. (He was 15th percentile in height at his 2 yr check-up, not a chart-topper by any means.)

As has been pointed out above, it is actually less expensive to get the big Britax seat as the first convertible, since you will be sure to get to booster age. Ironically, the cheapest convertible seat out there (Cosco Scenera - $40) is the only one that has a chance of getting a child to 4 years, but even then there will be a good portion of kids who will need another harnessed seat.

[Kat_Mom2D_J_andRuthie]

I thought it might also show more of why we recommend the Scenera so much.... that buying it and then the Regent was the most cost effective method and meant buying the least seats, since the bottom slots of the scenera are low enough for almost every newborn, and the Regent lasts till a child is ready for a seatbelt.

I'm glad you liked them.

[tjham]

Quote: >I appreciate that you took the time to update this. However,
>I still take contention with your claim that

"..for most kids,
>an infant seat followed by convertible (up to 40 pounds) and
>then a belt-positioning booster should do the trick."
>


I am so glad they updated but I also had to shake my head at this comment.

[alandenisefields]

No problem, we'll change that too.

alan & denise

[tjham]

;)

Newest update:


Quote:
So, that's our take on all the hoopla surrounding this new study. The best course for a parent is to get a car seat that fits BOTH your vehicle and child. And yes, if your child is at the top of his/her growth charts, go for a convertible that works up to 65 pounds (Britax Marathon, etc). One tip: LOOK for convertible seats that have HIGH top harness slots. Sites like carseatdata.org have measurements pages. Go for a seat that your child won't quickly outgrow in height before weight.

UPDATE: We updated/corrected this blog entry a bit to respond to some good points made by safety techs to us via email! You are right; we were wrong! Thanks for letting us know.

[Scatterbunny]

Oh, that is so much better! :)