Check install? LOTS of pictures

[Splash]

Okay... we were debating on a safeseat for Charlie and decided against it because money is tight and he has two boulevards. Then one kind of fell into our laps. I have a friend who bought one and didn't like it, so we offered to try it out and let her use out BT latch loc (which he obviously doesn't fit in anymore). Yes I trust her implicitly. She's only used the seat for about 2 weeks and wants something smaller.
The SS has a lot of things going for it, and I really REALLY like it. I got a much better install with it in my car than I have ever gotten with his BV. His BV has never been as tight as I want it and it takes at least 25-30 minutes to get it in and it seems I am redoing it every month or so.

Anyway, I put the SS in tonight. Rock solid in the center with lap belt only. Took ten minutes tops.

My questions are this...

1) It says not to use it if the belts are forward of the seat bight. I honestly don't know if mine count as forward or not. I think they are, but I really don't know. I posted a few pictures to see if someone else can inform me. It say in the manual NOT to use it if that is the case, but the seat is SO solid I cannot fathom how it would be a problem. What do you think about going against the manual in this situation?

2) My lap belt has a metal plate on top to hook the shoulder portion (which comes from the roof) onto it. This part is laying in the belt path of the seat but it does not appear to interfere with installation or use. It is easy to get the seat in and out and it is not blocking the connectors at all. Is this okay?

3) I have heard, somewhere in the past, not to use locking clips with lap only belts. Does the built in lockoff count? It says in the manual it can be installed with a LB only.

4) Do both parts of the LB go under the locking clip? I mean the part that secures it, and then the 'overhang' from it being tightened. I put both parts through. It does not specify in the manual, however it says that with a 3 point belt, both lap and should portion must be through the lockoff, so I just put both parts of the LB through as well.

I think that's it. The vehicle is a 2002 Pontiac Aztek.

I really want this seat to work because so far I love it. He has room to grow, he seems comfortable, and he SLEPT through dinner out tonight, which was wonderful. Plus, it is just so much more secure than his BV. I really think that if I can't use the SS, his BV is going to have to go outboard because I just can't get a good center install.

E

[catfeet]

I had an '01 Aztek, in which I was never able to get great installs in the center. Things installed MUCH better outboard. Besides, if it makes things easier, there are latch clips outboard. I was able to get a rock solid install on a RF WZ outboard...thing just didn't move, while in the center it wibble-wobbled all over the place. Matter of fact, the lousy center install and the rotten seat were the reasons I came and found this board, lol...

Sorry not to be able to help you with your other questions, just commiserating about the Aztec's center positioning...

Ann

[Kat_Mom2D_J_andRuthie]

that buckle needs to be out of the beltpath... so twist your short (female) buckle up to 3 full twists (360 degree twists) to shorten it... that should pull the buckle down out of the beltpath.

you can use the lockoff... I think you could even attach the shoulder portin and use that.

I was hoping you'd show a pic of Charlie in the seat... he just looks so big I can't imagine him fitting... but I know at his age it would be so convenient... and I'd love to see the grow room....

other than that, your install looks fine, but I'd just get the buckle out of the beltpath.

Kat

[Splash]

Why? Is there any real reason it can't be in there?
It doesn't say anything in the manual about it (grrr). And it doesn't interfere at all with the use of the seat.
If I twist the buckle, I can't use it in the center period. It won't be tight.
Here is a picture of Charlie in the seat. He's got about two inches of torso growth (and 7ish pounds) before he is too big for it.
We won't really use the carrier often, except for him to sleep in if out to dinner or occasionally if he falls asleep in the car (but we'll probably still just take him out of the seat). But it is such a rock solid install in the center (way better than I ever got with his BV) that we're going to use it until he outgrows it. If it buys him 3-4 more months in the center, it's worth it. Because after that he's going to have to go outboard in this vehicle (or FF, which is of course out of the question)


http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/user_files/32997.jpg

[mom2acrew]

Yes your belts are forward of the bight but I am not sure if that is an issue considering it is installed tightly. I'll ask another tech in the mean time the buckle seems fine. When the buckle stalk enters the belt path the concern is the seat belt not being tight enough. it appears the stalk is not in the belt path though? The latch plate is another issue if it sits at an angle that prevents it from locking then you would need to try twisting the the belt stalk to bring it to a different angle. In this case using the lock off should eliminate that concern though.

Is this clear as mud? I hope it makes sense. The techs are quiet with the holiday but I'll see if someone can pop in and clear up the forward of the bight issue.

[nisi]

The same warning about belts forward of the bight is in most (all?) Graco manuals. I called and asked them about it around 2-2.5 years ago. At that time, they said they put that warning in the manual because you usually can't get a seat tight with belts forward of the bight, but if you could get it installed tightly it was perfectly ok to use that position. Now, this was a long time ago so who knows what might have changed. My official advice is to call Graco and ask for yourself. But unofficially, I don't see a problem as long as you can get a good install there ;-)


Nisi
CPST and mom to 2

[skipspin]

I am not a long-time tech, but I would feel very comfortable with the install if it's that tight and secure, but if you are in doubt use the LATCH outboard. I can't see the instruction manual and while pictures are great, they just aren't the same.

I also wanted to let you know that you don't need to worry a lot about using your BV outboard. RFing is SO safe. I use our WZ outboard whenever it is RFing (DD is almost 3 and 30 lb and I have just started FF most of the time in the center) since Rfing it blocks too much of the view in my Saturn VUE (similar isn size to your Aztek) I got a great install with the WZ in the center, but it just didn't work well IRL for me. I also try to remember that when I have another baby one (probably the RFing baby in a seat that has SIP) of the kids will have to be outboard.

My seatbelts come out of the seat about how yours do, and I have NEVER had a problem getting any seat tight. The only difference is my center lap/shoulder is built into the seat, not from the roof.

HTH.
Joy, mommy and CPS tech

[Splash]

I'm not terrified of putting him outboard, I just don't want to. And if I can get a good install in the center, I would prefer that. Even if it means switching seats. Scary truth is I can get a good install in the center with an AO, but not with the BV. So if we don't use the SafeSeat (why does Graco have to smush two words into one?) my choice becomes BV outboard or AO center. He'll likely do 2 pounds in the AO at some point (if he is not too tall) but I would prefer not to until then.
Also if I unscrew the locking clips from his BV I know I will get a better fit. They are more of a problem than anything.
But for right now, I'm keeping the SS in. It is so secure and he seems comfy in it. I really think it's in tighter than his LL was with the rigid LATCH bars! I've pulled it side to side, from the front, and straight up... this thing does NOT move.
But now I am slightly concerned about the buckle in the belt path. Can anyone verify that that is a bad thing? It lies flat, the latchplate still locks (and we're using the lockoff) and it doesn't interfere with anything.

[Kat_Mom2D_J_andRuthie]

thanks... the main reason I was so curious about how much room he had to grow was because he looks like he's the same size as my second son was at that age (Jeffrey, who was 30lbs at 1yr old)... he looked just like that except for the blue eyes... an dhe had a rounder face that actually made him look chubbier from the neck up than Charlie.

So I've been just kinda guessing along the lines of how this seat would do for the chubby set... based on him... and his growth... so I was itching to see if I was on the right track... and glad to see I'm right... it should still get him to 1yr old... and that 30lb weight limit or close to it.

the reason for the buckle being out of the beltpath is that if it isn't out of it, then the buckle takes the brunt of the force in a crash... which it isn't meant to.

It will usually snap and then the seat will go flying.

I can't remember where I saw the video that proves this, but it was on a euro site and posted onto the bbc board.

my dodge caravan's manual specifies not to have the buckle there... as do my Britax Manuals.

I'll see what I can do about finding where in the Britax manual it say this.

Kat

[Kat_Mom2D_J_andRuthie]

here is what Britax says... and if memory serves (I'm gonna try to track down that crash video for you)... it was their euro seat the video came from

Vehicle Buckle Position

Warning: The position of the vehicle belt buckle can affect the stability of the child restraint. In an accident, an improperly positioned buckle could become loose and the child would be unprotected.

if the buckle lies near the position marked as wrong (x) when the vehicle belt is tightened, try fitting the child restraint in another seating position in the vehicle.
If it is not possible to achieve the correct position (there is a green checkmark in this set of parenthesis) for the buckle, then another seating position MUST be used.

*note* the x position is shown with the male portion of the buckle inside the beltpath and the female portion protruding out... the point where they are connected is directly on the corner of the beltpath

on the green checkmark pic, the whole buckle is completely out of the beltpath


Here is what carseat.org says about this issue

http://www.carseat.org/Technical/tech_update.htm

Twisted vehicle belt

There are three concerns about twisting vehicle belts under various usage conditions that are reflected in vehicle owner's manual warnings. First, belts that are directly restraining people work best if they spread the impact force over a wide area, and, if they are twisted, this area narrows. Second, a lap-shoulder belt that is twisted when threaded through a CR belt path may be difficult to tighten adequately, but, if tightened first and then twisted once at the latchplate, a locking clip may not be needed. Finally, twisting or tying a knot in belt webbing does reduce its strength, but recent tests have shown this reduction to be small and not enough to risk child safety. In general, warnings against twisting belts do not apply to the practice of twisting to make a secure CR installation possible.

Vehicle belt webbing is extremely strong and can withstand pull tests of over 6000 lb. This is 3 to 4 times the strength needed to restrain a 60-lb child in a severe crash. Laboratory tests conducted by IMMI Child Restraints in 1998-99 found that the average strength of vehicle belt webbing, pulled until failure, gradually reduced depending on the number of full twists: 1=6%, 2=11%, 3=20%, 6=40%. Some of the webbing had been soaked in apple juice or cola, which resulted in slightly more degradation than untreated webbing. When other samples were twisted and later untwisted, the webbing returned to its normal strength. These data indicate that up to three full twists in belt webbing will not reduce its strength enough to risk failure when restraining a child.

There are two situations that call for twisting vehicle belt webbing. First, with a lap-only belt, the locking latchplate may rest on the CR at a angle, so that it does not stay locked. By turning the latchplate over once (a half twist) and inserting it into the buckle, the locking bar will be held in place. If the tongue will not go into the buckle "backwards," turning the latchplate over again (a full twist) may provide enough friction to keep it from slipping. The second situation is for lap-shoulder belts, when the buckle is mounted on a short length of webbing, but this webbing may be a little too long to place the buckle where it can be tightened. Twisting the buckle end once or twice (full twists) may shorten it enough to solve the problem. This technique will not work if the webbing is very long or if the buckle is attached to a stiff cable. If the webbing is supported by a plastic sleeve, the parent may carefully slice down the sleeve and remove it.

[Splash]

So what I am reading into this is that it can cause the belt to loosen. That's true if the latch plate is at an angle. This one is pretty much straight. It's not at an angle enough that would allow it to release though. I am also using the lockoff which keeps it from releasing.
I called Graco and they couldn't tell me one way or the other. Then I called Britax and they told me they advise not doing it but couldn't say why.
I can't twist the buckle. I won't be able to get it in tight if I do that. So it's this way or no way.
I wish I could just get someone to tell me WHY this is the case. It makes sense not to let it lie at an angle. And it makes sense not to use a lap/shoulder belt this way. But I can't find a reason that a lap only belt can't be used like this IF it stays locked. And I've had infant seats installed before by techs where the latchplate was in the belt path. My only concern with this latch plate was the metal hook on top (don't know why I was concerned though).
So it's either this seat like this, or his BV outboard, or an AO center.

[daniele_ut]

>I am also using the lockoff which keeps it from releasing.


The lockoff actually will release in an accident. It is meant just to hold the seatbelt in place for the amount of time that it takes the belt to lock in a belt that has an Emergency Locking Retractor. Hopefully Julie will chime in here, since it was in one of her posts that I remember reading that. I don't know how it will work in a lapbelt only situation, though.

I wish I knew a definitive answer to your question of why can't it be in the belt path. I have a similar issue with my Subaru and this thread has me wondering if my quest to effect a good install in the center has actually created a less safe situation for DS. We have a lap belt only with a long buckle stalk and even twisting it down causes the buckle to lie right over the lockoff on our Roundabout. Now I'm not sure that this is safe. I guess I need to take some pics too.

ETA - going back and reading the text from the Britax Manual again, I read that as saying the actual buckle could come loose (as in detatch the male side from the female), not just the belt.

[Kat_Mom2D_J_andRuthie]

well, for some reason, though I remembered I bookmarked the site with the videos, including the one I mentioned, the site isn't working, which ticks me off.

it was indeed Romer who did it... but it was for travel-uk.com, whose entire site is not up.

Thank goodness for all the detail I put when listing it under my bookmarks, or I wouldn't even know why I'd had it there when it shows up inaccessible.

I'm going to keep trying another way to find the video.

Kat