How to find car features on line

[lrg]

I have spent hours trying to find out if a specific car that's not mine has either LATCH or retractable locking seatbelts (I forget what this feature is actually called) to install our car seats. It's a 1997 BMW, so I'm thinking it likely has the locking seat belts, but not LATCH. I want to say I vaguley recall reading that the locking seat belt retractor was required right around 97 or 98?...but also know that luxury cars are often ahead of the game.

Anyway, the BMW sites I found weren't helping, nor any of my searches I tried here. Carseatdata.org doesn't give specific info, but only had a handful of 3-series in the DB anyway. Used car ads might mention LATCH, but I didn't think that was out 10 years ago and didn't see any ads mentioning it....and why would an ad mention that seat belt feature.

Help!!! Is there a web site that can just tell me the standard features on specific cars?

Also, while i'm asking questions - I saw on the FAA's web site that after 40 lbs, children should sit in the airplane seat w/o a car seat. I know boosters are not allowed. Since he still fits in his MA, should we still use it or is the lap belt enough? I always do what's safest, but we do also have to consider we'll have 7 mo. DD likely being CARRIED in her car seat b/c the stroller it snaps into is too large to bring (and we bought her a seat). So dragging the MA through the airport in addition to the baby, her car seat, and the "stuff" we need to carry on will be tough. Advice???

[Joolsplus2]

The BMW should almost certainly have locking belts (pull them all the way out, let them retract tightly... doesn't matter for a Britax, might matter for an infant seat). (LATCH came out in 2002, top tethers came out 9/1/99).
They are 'safe enough' at 40 pounds w/o a seat, but it's safer if you can find a way to bring it on the plane (what seat would you have at the other end? Do you trust the airline not to lose or destroy your britax en route?).
Which infant seat are you using?
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx

[lrg]

My husband finally found some info last night. You're right, it has the ALR - but one snag - center back seat is lap belt only. We have 2 car seats and 3 adult passengers. Can one of the car seats be installed properly with a lap belt only in a car? My problem with the Britax and not having ALR is that our locking clips always burst open. I don't trust them. I complained to Britax a few times - I think they got that way b/c the path of our old seat belt going through wasn't perfectly straight/flat in order to be tight and it kind of gathered. So closing the lock was really hard and it's as if it stretched out the plastic. At one point, Britax replaced them for FF on one of our seats, but they still make me nervous.

Our other seat is a Graco snugride with the base.

If we didn't use the MAt, yes, we'd check it to have it for the trip. Do they destroy seats? We have a zip up car seat bag - can that be used along with a "handle with care" tag to help with abuse? I did have a discussion along these lines with Britax once when I had to ship the seat back to them - I was concerned about how it'd be handled during shipping since I didn't have the appropriate box and was this any different if it was banged around than if it was in an accident and they insisted it was fine.

Thanks for helping me out here!

[hipmaman]

>.... it has the ALR - but one snag - center back seat is lap belt
>only. We have 2 car seats and 3 adult passengers. Can one of
>the car seats be installed properly with a lap belt only in a
>car?

Absolutely. In fact, when there is a lap-only belt, for better safety, I tend to suggest installing a carseat there and not letting a passenger riding with lap-only belt.


My problem with the Britax and not having ALR is that
>our locking clips always burst open. I don't trust them. I
>complained to Britax a few times - I think they got that way
>b/c the path of our old seat belt going through wasn't
>perfectly straight/flat in order to be tight and it kind of
>gathered. So closing the lock was really hard and it's as if
>it stretched out the plastic. At one point, Britax replaced
>them for FF on one of our seats, but they still make me
>nervous.

The Britax lock-offs was like that for my old Volvo which had thick seatbelt webbing. So I find that if I spread the two webbing across the entire width of the lock-off, then it closes fine. But the lock-off would either burst opened or would not close at all, if I double up the webbing perfectly one on top of the other. Hope I explain it clear enough here.


>
>Our other seat is a Graco snugride with the base.
>
>If we didn't use the MAt, yes, we'd check it to have it for
>the trip. Do they destroy seats? We have a zip up car seat
>bag - can that be used along with a "handle with care" tag to
>help with abuse? I did have a discussion along these lines
>with Britax once when I had to ship the seat back to them - I
>was concerned about how it'd be handled during shipping since
>I didn't have the appropriate box and was this any different
>if it was banged around than if it was in an accident and they
>insisted it was fine.
>

The risks of checking the carseat would be damaged, loss and dirtiness from the stuff in the cargo bin or when being handled. With the travel bag, that should help minimising getting the seat dirty, but not with damages or loss.

[lrg]

Thanks for the advice! Do you think the MA and snugride will fit next to each other? They do in our 2007 CRV, but they are installed with LATCH, so the center one is actually slightly off center away from the MA and there's really little to no wiggle room to space the seats. I have no idea what the back seat is like of this kind of BMW. It's a 3 series - 328i?

[Joolsplus2]

An FF MA will be rock solid with that BMW lapbelt (we had a 2000 323i, just a little smaller), and what you might end up doing is putting the MA FF on the side and the snugride baseless in the middle...the FF MA lockoff should be fine (can't see why they would pop open? The RF ones suck, though!)and it just might 'mesh' a little better if you do the SR without the base. It MIGHT fit with the base, but is so easy to install without the base in a seatbelt, you can do that if that's how everyone will fit best back there (depending on how long the trip is and how much driving you'll be doing, you might not even bring the base at all, actually...)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx

[lrg]

We've never installed the snugride w/o the base - is it easier than installing the base? What if the baby's in the seat already (and esp asleep?). I'm assuming the carrier is what will go in the center, yes?

Maybe I'm overthinking this - this trip is to NYC. So the car is likely only being used for 3 - 4 occasions for 4 different days, 2 of which are to and from the airport. I am hesitant to leave the MA installed in the car for the entirety - parked on neighborhood street in Brooklyn the majority of the time. (so we'd have to install 2 car seats 3 times w/o LATCH if the base isn't in) Don't know if something like that in the car would bring on the possibility of someone wanting to break into the car? Don't know if the type who breaks into cars is aware it's a $280 seat, or if they even desire seats, but who knows. My brother's old girlfriend had a really crummy bike that had the wheels stolen off of it multiple times in the same neighborhood.

I know...I'm being really complicated! If you can't tell, I like to avoid as many issues as I can!

[Joolsplus2]

I think installing a Snugride with no base is a snap, I've always done it with my kid in it (just put the lap belt or lap portion through the belt guides and tighten it so it's twanging tight over the baby's lap, then pull the belt out to switch it to locking mode if it's a lap/shoulderbelt, or just tighten and go if it's a lap belt). You can try it at home to get comfortable with it (it will always flip up/back freely, just get that belt tight and make sure you can't push the head part down/back).

I bet the average street thief is going for pocketable items, they probably won't touch your Marathon (my car was broken into a few times... darn little punks stole my gum and car manual :P)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx

[lrg]

Can I get a tight fit like that with the baby in? I'm so used to using all of my (or my husband's) body weight to lean on the seat and yank away. I know it's especially hard to get tight fits in passenger cars like that - our 2000 Accord was SUCH a pain to install and I couldnt' get a tight fit myself. We'll be in NJ the prior 3 days where we'll be in a Pilot, but if it's easy enough to install the carrier with a seatbelt every time, I just may leave the base at home as you suggested.

Not to keep harping, but were you able to get 2 car seats into the back of your BMW? (and a passenger? Luckily, I'm small enough to take up little room)

[Joolsplus2]

Hey, better to ask and know then be unpleasantly surprised! The baseless install is more wobbly, but the whole... mechanism...of being held in a bowl in the car still makes it exceptionally safe. I think www.carseatsite.com has videos of baseless installs, give it a look-see.
I crammed my ample self in the back with a couple of carseats a few times just fine (though definitely it was much more comfortable when I put a seat in the middle than when I tried to put ME in the middle...fortunately that was one short trip!)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx

[mom2binsd]

I would really hesitate to baggage check a seat....if it's lost, damaged (and sometimes damage may not be obvious but your seat could get a small crack that you can't see) or delayed you're sunk at your destination...also... you DC will be so much more comfy in their own seat...airplane seats are so uncomfortable, and most kids seem better in familiar surroundings if that makes sense. There are a lot of suggestions on this board for ways to transport your MA through the airport (bag on wheels, backpack style bag, GOGo kids thing etc.)

Just my 2 cents.

[lrg]

Hi Julie! Ok, I think I need more help. I went to the site and did pull down the installation video for the infant carrier w/o a base. (there was no sound, so I have no idea if there should be something I can listen to) Then I attempted to do this myself.

It seems easy enough, but when I installed it, I couldnt' get anywhere near a tight fit. And the back was popped WAY up in the air so that not all of the bottom of the base was even touching the seat (only the front 1/2 or 2/3) and it STILL wasn't tight. I could wiggle the seat around SO much, and specifically I could lift it so that the front can get lower and the back/top can go way forward toward the back of the car's seat. Does that make sense? The belt is also gathering within the slots - there's no way I can get it to stay straight and flat.

In addition, as you can imagine, there was orange showing in the indicator. (baby will be 8 mos. at travel time - does the angle of the seat being perfect still matter? Installed in the base in our minivan, a sliver of orange shows, but we thought since she's older now, it doesnt' matter as much)

I attempted this in the back of our minivan. I thought trying in the one open spot of our CRV would be a better gauge of what the BMW 328 will be like, but the infant carrier wouldn't even come close to fitting next to the base that's already installed in the center. (I sure hope it'll fit next to the Marathon when we travel or we're in trouble!) The installer in the video had plenty of room to stand at the back of the seat and use her legs to push the car seat back into the vehicle seat back, but obviously that's not possible in a small passenger car.

While I'm at it, I know you said this can be done with the baby in it, but I dont' see how (it was so hard to do and it was empty!) - can you explain how I do that? I'm sure there'll be situations where she's asleep in it and I don't want to disturb her.

[Joolsplus2]

Didn't I tell you not to lift the head up? It will flop like crazy if you do that! :D

Ok this site is SLOW, but see if it helps more... http://www.thecarseatlady.com/how-to_videos/installation_video-more_infant_carriers_installed_without_the_base.ht ml
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx

[lrg]

>Didn't I tell you not to lift the head up? It will flop like
>crazy if you do that! :D
>
>Ok this site is SLOW, but see if it helps more...
>http://www.thecarseatlady.com/how-to_videos/installation_video-more_infant_carriers_installed_without_the_base.ht ml
>Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
>http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx

Hey- thanks for your response again. I don't get it? I don't see where you were talking about not lifting the head up, but I wasn't lifting it up. I was pushing down on the thing, but as I tightened the belt, it would just come up and up. I will check out that video to see if it helps. Hopefully she's doing this in a car that's not a minivan with a ton of room!

[Joolsplus2]

Did you lock the belt? (Uh...yeah, she's doing it in a minivan, standing up... uh, yeah, the point is to teach city dwellers how to install in taxis so I don't know what she's thinking...sigh...). I usually just use brute force to tug the shoulderbelt up really tight to get the lapbelt tight...you can see how it squishes the seat together when she shows the lapbelt tightening...).

You can wiggle the seat as needed to get it to the right recline... if it's too upright, push on the head...if it's too reclined, push near the foot...it's very...um... freeform (and, I must have told everyone else not to pull the head up, sorry! lol)

:)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx

[lrg]

Yes, I did lock the belt. I just could not get the thing to seem tight in any way, shape or form. I'm assuming this won't be rock solid like what we get with the base or what we get with a convertible? How do I tell if it's good enough? Will it be easier with just the lap belt? (that's how we'll be installing for 3 of the days in the BMW)

I have not tried again after these posts and the new video link you sent. My neighbor has a similar BMW and she offered to let me try in her car to at least see if they can fit (and hopefully I can install). I think one of your earlier posts did say that you got a Marathon and infant carrier into the back of your similar BMW and you were still able to sit back there, as well, (I can't see it now) so hopefully I'll get installing it figured out.

[Joolsplus2]

I'd say about the same with a lap belt... just pull the tail of the seat belt to get it tight. Yeah, it's really, really, really different than a rock solid base install or convertible. Really different. My main thing is I get the lapbelt 'twanging like a guitar string' and try to remember that seats without bases actually perform better in crash testing (less downward rotation possible).


Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx

[lrg]

Ok, I'm back! So I tried installing both car seats into my neighbor's 323i. A few things...

The buckle end on the middle seat is really long - so much so, that it butts up to the edge of the car seat where the belt threads through and seems to prevent me from tightening enough. Is there anything I can do about how long it is? I wondered about twisting...but I don't want to abuse the back of this person's car - my brother is borrowing it from someone. And I thought that video might have said not to twist.

That said, eventually I felt like I was able to get a somewhat ok fit - I was finally able to get it to move very little from side to side (after 30 minutes, I should add). However, if I pushed down on the bottom part of the seat (where the baby's feet go), the back would still pop up and then it could easily slide around. I can't seem to get it tight enough against the car seat's back to prevent this from happening. I know you said not to pull up on the back, so is pushing down by the feet the same thing? I thought a passenger squished in the back could easily do this, or maybe even a bump in the road? I also could see where the seatbelt is putting pressure on the plastic area the belt threads through - the seat belt still has some flex, but it still seems like it's pulling the seat together in the middle from the tightness?

I'm hoping once I get the hang of this, we won't spend 30 minutes each time we go anywhere - it'll be a LONG trip!!!!

When I installed the MA next to it, they're definitely pushing up against each other right where the arm comes into the side of the snugride. This might be part of why the seat wasn't moving side to side much. Is that ok?

Additionally - the positioning of all of the belts and buckles in the back of the car are in opposite spots. Meaning, you have to criss-cross belts when you buckle. Not very condusive to getting a tight fit on a car seat. Any helpful solutions to this?

In case you ask, I did try to install the MA in the middle and the infant seat on the outside spot. The MA was easier to install in the center, but then the infant seat would not fit next to it.

Oh - and the link you sent says the arm does not need to be all the way back on the Graco, but is it ok if it is? I think that might have helped a little with some of pressure of the 2 seats touching each other.

Thanks again for your help - sorry for the lengthy post.

[Joolsplus2]

How about using a fat rolled bathtowel under the foot of the infant seat? Or a pool noodle cut in three sections and taped in the shape of a pyramid, but usually it's easier to grab a towel from the closet and roll it like a tight burrito and put it under the foot to keep the seat from popping up and back.
Yes, the handle can be in positions A, D, or E in the car (that's all the way up, then NOT the next two down, and then YES on the two bottom positions...I'm assuming your seat has the 5 positions...if it's older, then A or C are fine in the car, but not B). Sounds like you're getting there... you'll be from 30 minutes to thirty seconds pretty soon. (and ready for the tech class...I'm going to recruit you after going through all this ;) Just kidding, lol)

Oh, and yes, by all means twist that buckle stalk down (maximum of three full twists), it won't hurt the car at all, and you need the buckle off the edge of the seat so the latchplate will hold tightly.
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx

[lrg]

I'm not sure how many times a person can keep bothering you with questions and then thanking you, but I continue to appreciate you helping me out!!!

Does the fact that the back can easily pop up signal that I'm doing anything wrong? Or is this normal? It partially feels like it's due to the fact that the bottom of the seat is curved and also maybe due to the slipping on the leather?

Our seat is Dec 2006, so it must have the 5 positions, but I have no idea which you are talking about so will have to see if I can figure it out. I was surprised to see that fully upright was ok in that video - when we had our first seat installed by a CPS tech 4 years ago, she scolded us for having the handle in the upright position and had said that in a crash, if that gets pushed in and broken, it becomes something that can come acroos and lacerate the child. Same thing for the sun visor.

Is there anything I should know about installing the seats with that criss cross thing going on where the seat belts buckle opposite of the positions in the seat they're for?

I actually considered taking the class a few years ago, but looked into it and it was a good 1 1/2 hour or more commute from my house both ways for 5 days. Additionally, I lay awake at night worrying about things and it's probably better off for my mental health that I not see or learn about bad things happening to kids, which I'm guessing the class must touch upon. I have tried to volunteer with our county safe kids coalition, but the girl in charge was always wishy washy about returning my calls or using me. I did go to one county meeting and everyone seemed excited to have me there, but then months would go by and I'd never hear from her.

[Joolsplus2]

I promise, the head popping up is normal when you lift it or push on the foot...it's called 'cocooning' or 'rebound' and doesn't cause significant injury in a crash (it will even do it in your regular seat, it's just a bit more obvious when it's baseless). Try that towel thing, it'll make the install a lot less wiggly. :)

Even 4 years ago Graco allowed the handle to be up, pity that techs don't read manuals and keep up with current allowed practices (she was right for other brands, but Graco has allowed the handle up for at least that many years, it's reinforced, required to be up on european seats, and won't shatter... the canopy is light plastic ribbing and is not known to have ever caused even the smallest injury to a child in any seat, so put it up if you want to). (If you don't have your manual, you can look it up at www.gracobaby.com, it shows their lovely alphabet scenario there (would it kill them to imprint acceptable handle scenarios on the handle itself? sheesh))

Nothing to know about the opposite shoulderbelt situation...just get your knee in the seat and pull up on the shoulderbelt at the buckle, to get the lapbelt snugged down well, and lock the lockoff as usual.

Bummer about them never at least calling you back to be a scribe at a check... :(


Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx

[lrg]

Let me make sure I understand where to place the rolled up towel. Does it go in the big space underneath the foot? or between the foot and the seat back of the car?

I was offering to do more than help out at checks - I am/was in marketing and offered to help them with some of their marketing materials, sit in on meetings regarding getting information out about safety to the public, and help expedite, event plan, etc. Even our first meeting after I called her I came up with some practical ideas she was going to propose for future events. My biggest thing was having the ability to do most of the work from home, but that was never a problem for them. I'm not an expert by any means, but was free help, you know?

[Joolsplus2]

Oooh, I'd take up THAT offer! (free marketing ideas of any kind) (If I had any need for it, that is... maybe some day...)

If I can't find a picture of it, yeah, the towel goes in that big empty space under the foot space so you can't push the foot down.


Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx

[lrg]

>Oooh, I'd take up THAT offer! (free marketing ideas of any
>kind) (If I had any need for it, that is... maybe some
>day...)
>
>If I can't find a picture of it, yeah, the towel goes in that
>big empty space under the foot space so you can't push the
>foot down.
>
>
>Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
>http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx

Well, like I said, I'm no expert, but I couldn't keep nagging her to let me help. I don't even remember what my suggestions were anymore, but they were apparently things no one had thought of in our county. She had presented me with some events they were considering doing and I piggy backed onto those with some ideas - I'm sure things like that had been done somewhere, somehow.

Regarding the snugride handles - I know our old one did say to put the sun visor and handle down while installed in the car, it just didn't say why. So I, like many other parents, didn't see the harm in having them up until she explained to me the reasons. So perhaps they hadn't changed quite yet. I didn't even read up on that this time around since I assumed it had not changed. Is there any reason to think the handles offer additional protection and are better left up?

[Joolsplus2]

This is from a correspondence posted to the CPSPList between a Graco rep and the Graco engineers, from 10/2003:

"Graco advises that either the up or down position can be used during travel.
We have conducted extensive crash testing to FMVSS 213 standards as well as
ISO side-impact testing with the handle in both the upright and down positions.
We have also carefully examined crash investigation reports involving the
SnugRide. Another interesting fact is that in Europe the handle, is required to
be in the upright position.
Personally, Steve, Ray and myself have our own children restrained in SnugRide
’s. Based off all the data that we have, we always have our children travel
in the SnugRide with the handle in the upright position."

(so I'm thinking if Steve and Ray do it, it *must* be good! lol)

Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx

[lrg]

Thanks for that! Yeesh, wish I knew that sooner. Would have been a little easier over the past 8 months.

Thanks again for ALL of your help. I seriously don't know how you have time to be out here all the time! Just when I ask my own little questions is about all the time I can spare on the computer.

[Joolsplus2]

Oh, I have a Scooba... life is good... :D

Good luck, tell us how it goes with the towel.

:)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/Leah.aspx