Katahdin parka too bulky for carseat?

[pastrygirl]

My 17-month-old has the LL Bean Katahdin parka. I always thought it was too thick for the carseat (Marathon) but my husband thinks it isn't, because it's a layer of fleece with a nylon outer layer. For those of you that have the same parka, what do you think? My husband put him in the seat with the parka, very tight (probably tighter than I would do it), and he loosened the straps a little to take him out. When I put him back in without the parka and without adjusting the straps, I could get two fingers in at the shoulder but not much more. That was with the loosened straps. So now I'm wondering if maybe I'm just being too paranoid?


Cristina
mom to Toby, 6/10/06

[bubbaray]

DD#1 has the same parka and I won't be using it in the seat. I do, on occasion, use the LE Squall in the seat. The LL Bean Katahdin is much bulkier than the LE Squall (the comparable LL Bean Jacket is their Warmup).

JMHO.

HTH

Melissa

DD#1: 04/2004

DD#2: 01/2007

[hillview]

We have this parka and we avoid putting DS into the seat with it on. I think in a pinch it is a better coat then most for the carseat but we take it off in the car and then get into the seat.
/hillary

[khalloc]

I know that you aren't supposed to put kids in their carseats with puffy jackets on, but I dont understand how you are supposed to accomplish this when you live in a cold climate. I live in Northern Vermont. About 1 hour from Montreal, Quebec. Its gets COLD here in the winter. What am I supposed to do? take my kids coat off before she gets in the car and let her sit in a cold car for 10-15 minutes while it heats up? Not to mention that I would have to put her in the car and get her strapped in the seat with the door wide open while she has no coat on. It just doesnt seem realistic to me. I realize that being cold and maybe getting sick is better than being in a car crash, but how many people really follow these rules? I put my kid in the carseat with her coat on, and I always make sure the straps are pretty tight.

I guess I just wonder how many parents (who live in cold climates) really follow this rule, and if you do, how do you do it?

[Kindra178]

We use a thin fleece for car seat use (LL Bean zip up fleece), and a heavy coat for outside play. My mom thinks I am crazy, but we just had our infant last year in a full length fleece (with legs). For older kids, try the thin fleece and bring the heavy jacket. Also, throw the heavy jacket over the child as a blanket

[stillplayswithbarbies]

I warm the car up before we get in, usually. And then I put her coat back on her, backwards, after she is buckled in.

In a pinch, I open her coat so that the sides of it are at her sides and not beneath the car seat straps at all. That is actually colder for her than putting the coat back on backwards though.

[HIU8]

For DS who is almost 3, we use a fleece jacket and a blanket for the car. On really cold days he wears his winter coat to the car, takes it off and uses the blanket (the car is already warmed up) and then puts the coat back on when we get to our destination. For DD who is 5 months I use a combo of a full body fleece and a showercap type cover for the carseat. I do have a snowsuit for DD but will not be using it in the carseat as it is to bulky.

HTH
Heather
DS 11/27/04
DD 6/9/07

[HIU8]

For DS who is almost 3, we use a fleece jacket and a blanket for the car. On really cold days he wears his winter coat to the car, takes it off and uses the blanket (the car is already warmed up) and then puts the coat back on when we get to our destination. For DD who is 5 months I use a combo of a full body fleece and a showercap type cover for the carseat. I do have a snowsuit for DD but will not be using it in the carseat as it is to bulky.

HTH
Heather
DS 11/27/04
DD 6/9/07

[Piglet]

Sorry to say, I am guilty as well. We are in Canada and last year we hit -40 a few times (F and C are the same at -40). There is NO way I am leaving the house in a fleece and there is no way the kids are going out with a fleece in that kind of weather. I also wouldn't risk it at -20C, which is pretty common here in the winter in the morning. I drive a newer car, but it can still stall or break down in the winter and it is pretty darn unsafe to be stuck somewhere without adequate clothing in that kind of weather. I put the kids in and cinch the straps as tight as possible, but, yes, I do use winter coats. I am not saying it is ideal, but that is my reality.

Marina

Mommy to
DS1 A 07/14/01
DS2 K 03/10/05
DD1 A 05/08/07

http://by.lilypie.com/Jz7Qm6/.png
http://b3.lilypie.com/UqL2m6.png
http://b1.lilypie.com/O20wm6.png

[pastrygirl]

I live near Boston, so it gets pretty cold here, too, but I take those car seat and coat warnings seriously. I don't want my kid flying out of his seat during an accident because he had a coat on. I'd rather him get a little cold for a couple of minutes, where I live. I know some of you live in (much) colder climates than me, but I'm always stunned when people in my climate or in even warmer climates claim that they can't/won't find an alternative to a bulky winter coat. I don't know what I would do in -20 temps, as that might happen here with a windchill but is not normal. Where I live, it's certainly feasable to take the coat off.

If it was brutally cold, I would get us both in the car and close the door, then strap him in. They also have these car seat ponchos, which I think are kind of ugly for a boy, but I might end up getting one. I doubt I'd use it instead of a parka for outside, but it is a good option for inside the car if it's really, really cold.

I do have a LE fleece for him that I put on under his parka last year. This year it seems so bulky since he's so much bigger, but it sounds like the better option. (Fleece plus parka outside, fleece only inside.)

ETA: If you break down, you'll still have the parka with you. It just won't necessarily be on the baby at the time of the break down. So yes, we should all have adequate clothing/blankets/etc. in our cars in the winter in case of breakdowns. Thank you for the reminder!

Cristina
mom to Toby, 6/10/06

[o_mom]

It gets cold here too. Maybe not for weeks on end, usually, but we almost always have many below zero days and the flat terrain means lots of wind and wind chill.

We use fleece, mainly, or fleece with a windbreaker type cover (LE Squall type). This has always been plenty for the car. We are not going out and playing for hours in this, it is just for the car. I always keep blankets in the car and pile them on once they are strapped in. I also keep heavy coats, mittens, hats and boots for everyone in case we were stranded.

Going from the car to a store or into school is usually under a minute of actual exposure and hats and mittens do a lot to keep them warm. Same with putting the straps on - it only takes 30 sec or less and then I pop the coat on them backwards if they want or put a blanket on. A car may not feel "warm" for 10-15 min, but just putting 2-3 bodies in an enclosed area out of the wind will warm it up to non-dangerous temperatures very quickly.

The number of children killed in car accidents each year far exceeds the number who die from frostbite.

[o_mom]

You can keep heavy coats in the car for emergencies without using them in the carseat. A fleece jacket with a windbreaker outer, like the LE Squall is rated to -15 F (-26 C).

[Piglet]

It is rated to -26, but you have to keep moving. The problem with the ones you keep in the car is that they are cold from being outside. You have to put them on and wait to warm up, which takes a while. I realize that we are all carseat fanatics on this board, but I have never met a person IRL in my city that keeps their kids coats in their car, and that includes many of my friends that are very concerned about keeping their kids as safe as possible. We all put our kids in coats at home and cinch their seatbelts/carseats straps as tight as possible. If I am driving a lot, I get the kids out of their coats once the car is already warm, but if the trip is 10 minutes, the car only just starts to warm up by the time we reach our destination when it it -20 out.


Marina

Mommy to
DS1 A 07/14/01
DS2 K 03/10/05
DD1 A 05/08/07

http://by.lilypie.com/Jz7Qm6/.png
http://b3.lilypie.com/UqL2m6.png
http://b1.lilypie.com/O20wm6.png

[Piglet]

>The number of children killed in car accidents each year far
>exceeds the number who die from frostbite.

I am sorry, but I take offense to this kind of statement. Those of us that really do live in cold climates, and by that I mean, -20 without the windchill for MANY days in the winter, are not trying to make our kids unsafe. We are not trying to prevent frostbite at the expense of our children's safety. I do everything I can do to keep my kids safe, including extended RF, properly secured carseats, extended harnessing, etc. My kids are not going to fly out of their seats simply because they are wearing coats. We are not talking HUGE puffy parkas. We are talking a few extra millimeters of material. And it is not frostbite I am trying to avoid as that is more an issue for exposed skin (i.e. face, hands, etc.). I am trying to keep my kids safe from getting sick. I am trying to make sure they are not miserable in the car and not trying to keep moving to stay warm. This isn't something I take lightly, but until you live in a truly cold climate in the winter, please do not suggest that we are trying to compromise our kids safety for the sake of a little warmth.

Marina

Mommy to
DS1 A 07/14/01
DS2 K 03/10/05
DD1 A 05/08/07

http://by.lilypie.com/Jz7Qm6/.png
http://b3.lilypie.com/UqL2m6.png
http://b1.lilypie.com/O20wm6.png

[Piglet]

Marina

Mommy to
DS1 A 07/14/01
DS2 K 03/10/05
DD1 A 05/08/07

http://by.lilypie.com/Jz7Qm6/.png
http://b3.lilypie.com/UqL2m6.png
http://b1.lilypie.com/O20wm6.png

[o_mom]

I'm sorry that you were offended. For many, many parents, the danger of "cold" is way overblown when it is far less dangerous than than riding in a car.

Either you are talking about a bulky coat or not. If it is not a puffy, bulky coat, then you are fine. Unfortunately, many parents think a coat has to be thick to be warm, so many of the suggestions given were for warm winter coats which are not thick or puffy. Additionally, if someone already has a thick, puffy coat, then these were suggestions for how to safely use that coat. Nobody is suggesting that you strip them down to a t-shirt, for goodness sake.

[o_mom]

I don't keep their regular coats in the car. I have a set of emergency use coats that are much thicker - more like what they would use if I sent them out to play in the snow. They are there in case we were to get stranded some way.

[smiles365]

I live in Alaska and have lived here since my almost 4 year old was 2 months old and we NEVER have coats on in the car. In fact, he flips out if someone tries to put him in his seat with his coat on. We wear long sleeves (he won't even keep a light fleece on in the car), buckle up, then put his coat on him backwards over his harness. We do the same with our now 1 year old but use blankets instead of a coat because it works better on him. When we get to where we are going, I get my older ds out first, put his coat back on before he's out of the car, walk around the car to my younger ds, get him out and put him in a sling, then we walk to wherever we are going together. Hats and gloves do a lot to keep warm while the car is warming up. We get very cold in the winter, last year we had over 200 inches of snow, and getting stuck somewhere is a very real possiblity for us every day.
I have been a tech here for two years and have seen over and over again how loose coats make straps. I'd rather take the five seconds it takes to pull the coat off than have loose harness straps.

smiles365
ds1 almost 4 in a Recaro Young Sport and a Regent
ds2 just turned 1 still rearfacing in a Decathlon

[mom2acrew]

Cold here too in Maine. The Katahdin from Beans is way too thick IMO, my kids use that as their outside play jackets. We love the kids fitness fleece for an underlayer, it is so thin it fits well under a warmer coat but warm enough that with hat and mittens it is great in the car. The other issue is they can get overheated strapped in a warmed up car and actually be colder when you get out. My youngest is 14m and we just throw a fleece blanket over him if needed. Thankfully we had a warm fall so we are just getting into the coat issue and I agree it is a PITB but totally worth it.

[bubbaray]

I don't really live in a cold climate (we're about 2 hrs north of Seattle), but we do GO to cold climates and ski hills regularly. We always warm up the car before bundling the kids into their seats. Not the best thing for global warming, but oh well.

If I lived in a cold climate like Alberta, Maine or Alaska (to name a few that have already been mentioned in this thread), I would invest in an automatic car starter. Most people I know that live in colder areas than I do have this on their vehicle. You press a button, your car starts and warms up the interior of the vehicle.

HTH

Melissa

DD#1: 04/2004

DD#2: 01/2007

[MacBump]

I lived in Québec where it regularily went down below -40 after windchill. Never was my child in anything more than a thin polar fleece jacket in the car. *Frostbite* happens to exposed extremetites...my kids had thin jackets but THICK mittens and hats. Particularily hats, since a LARGE proportion of one's heat loss happens through the head. They had a thin jacket on in their carseat, and blankets or a thicker jacket backwards over top of the harness.

They wouldn't get frostbite from wearing too thin a jacket. Hypothermia, perhaps, but only if you didn't layer on blankets and didn't turn on the heat. They're *not* going to get hypothermia in the 5 min. or less it would take you to do up their harness, even if it's -60. Just ain't gonna happen. ;-) They'll feel cold and shivver. They might cry. But it won't kill them for a couple of minutes.

Fio

[hipmaman]

Hey Marina,

Having living in Winnipeg and Ottawa for the most part of my life and having visited Calgary many times with the in-laws living there, I hear you about the frigid cold weather. I'm all for automatic car starter and block heater (most people here in Toronto have never seen or heard of a block heater before, lol).

But I wonder if you have tried the test where you put a child in the carseat with the normal coat and tighten as usual, remove the child from the carseat but w/o loosening the harness, then put him/her back into the carseat and see how loose the harness can be. If the harness after this test is too loose for your liking, maybe try this...

I turn the car on with the heat at full blast while I brush the snow off, scrape the ice or frost off, etc. When I am done, the kids come out of the house fully clothed in snow pants, boots, hats, mitts, neck warmer, coat, etc. They and I would all get into the back of the van, coats off (pants on though), harness on, fleece blanket on. I get out from the back and while I drive, I take my coat off too (live by example ;-)). I find in our Odyssey, it does not take long to warm up once we are inside.

Hope that helps.

[Piglet]

Hi Tam,

I have tried the harness test, It is a tiny bit looser than I would like in an ideal world, but still tight enough that I am not too concerned - I tighten it up super tight with the coats on.

Here is where the logic fails me, though - we are always talking about kids and puffy coats vs. non-puffy coats, but virtually every adult wears a winter coat around here when they drive. If it was truly dangerous to wear a puffy coat in the winter, I figure we would be hearing about larger numbers of deaths/injuries attributed to PCS (puffy coat syndrome - I just coined the phrase). My kids are safer than I am in the car, I imagine, since they are in 5-point harnesses, RF (if applicable), back seat, etc. We adults are in much more danger than the kids are, and yet, I have not heard too many warnings for adults of the dangers of PCS.

My theory on this (yes, I have a theory) is that puffy coats are an issue as a percentage of body size, so as an example, if my body is 15" diameter and my coat is 1/2" thick, then the proportion is 30:1. By that same logic, my kids would need to maintain a 30:1 ratio or thereabouts, so if they are 10" diameter, then their coats shouldn't be more than 1/3" and that is without factoring in the added safety they get from their seats. I am just throwing this out there, because, while I realize that no coats is best, I also think that we beat ourselves up over all these little details, when we are all really looking out for our kids' best interests.

Marina

Mommy to
DS1 A 07/14/01
DS2 K 03/10/05
DD1 A 05/08/07

http://by.lilypie.com/Jz7Qm6/.png
http://b3.lilypie.com/UqL2m6.png
http://b1.lilypie.com/O20wm6.png

[801kelle]

I have read and have been told by my cousin who is a CPS Tech.. you should never put children in their carseat with a heavy jacket on.. only clothes and maybe a light sweater.. Car seats are not crash tested with dummies that have thick/ heavy coats on.. They are tested with just regular clothes on. I never put a my daugther in her carseat with a jacket. If it is cold I put a blanket over her that I always keep in the car in the winter.

Here are some good points to test if your child's coat is too thick. This quote came from the article below:

Check All Winter Coats for Car Seat Safety:

It's easy to check and see whether a baby's winter coat or infant snowsuit is too thick to be safe in a car seat. This test will show you how thick the coat is and how much the coat will compress during the crash.

1.Take the car seat into the house.
2.Put the winter coat or snowsuit on the child.
3.Put the child in the car seat and buckle the harnesses as you
normally would before car travel.
4.Adjust the straps to the appropriate fit for your child.
5.Take the child out of the car seat without loosening the strap at
all.
6.Take the coat off your child.
7.Put the child back in the car seat and buckle the harnesses again,
but do not tighten the straps.

8.If you can fit more than two fingers under the harness at the child's shoulder bone, the coat is too thick and is not safe for use with the car seat.


I actually will attach a link that talks about this.. how a infant had a coat on in their car seat and were in a crash and baby was ejected from carseat and car and coat was still in car seat...

Here is a great article that talks about the fact that you shouldn't put your kids in their car seats with jackets on.......

QUOTE:

"It is unsafe to put a thick coat, snowsuit, or blanket on under the harness of a car seat," Ellis says. "In a crash the coat would compress, making the straps too loose and possibly allowing the child to be ejected from the seat."
"The car seat harness needs to stay close to the child’s body at all times. If a coat is in between the harness and the child's body it could cause the child to be ejected from the seat. All coats and clothing will compress in a crash, but thicker winter coats and snowsuits could compress enough to allow the child to be ejected from the car seat."

ARTICLE QUOTE ABOVE CAME FROM:

http://babyproducts.about.com/od/carseats/a/carseatcoat.htm


HERE IS ANOTHER QUOTE AND ARTICLE:

One of the basics of correct car seat installation, in addition to buckling the car seat tightly into your vehicle, is that your child is 'buckled snugly' into the car seat itself. If the harness straps are loose, then your child can be injured or could even fly out of the car seat if you are in a crash

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration also recommends that 'to keep your baby the safest, always remove bulky clothing or blankets before you place the child in the seat. Then, put the blanket or coat over the baby. You should never place anything thick underneath the baby, unless that item came with the car seat originally — which tells you it's been tested by the manufacturer. When a child is wearing a thick coat, it's hard to tell if you have a good harness fit, which is crucial. A coat can add a lot of slack, reducing the level of protection for your child in a crash.'

Instead of putting your child in a car seat with a heavy winter coat, the Texas Department of Public Safety recommends that you 'keep your child in the clothes they will be wearing when they are indoors. Place the child in the infant seat or car seat, making sure the harness straps are snug over the shoulders and that they lie straight and flat down to the buckle. Buckle the child in and THEN put the coat or blanket OVER them - on TOP of the harness system. You can even turn the coat around and put his arms through the sleeves after he is buckled into his car seat. This will ensure your kids are kept snug in their seat, the harness system is able to do its job in the event of a crash, and that the kids stay warm.'

ARTICLE QUOTE IS FROM:

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/carseats/a/0107_wintercoat.htm

[hipmaman]

I totally agree about adults wearing coats as such. That's why I have to take my coat off, especially when the kids are in the van with me.

I have the same problem with adults sitting in lap-only belt, reclinig the seat too far back, sitting with feet up on the dashboard, etc. These are all potentially dangerous stuff adults are doing and shouldn't.

[Neatfreak]

We were still living in Canada last winter, and the LL Bean Warm-Up parka worked really well for battling the deep freeze and being a reasonably safe option for the carseat.

Like many of the others responding, I'd warm up the car before taking my daughter out to it (and since we didn't have covered parking there was usually snow to be brushed off and ice to be scraped). I also added a very warm (and very carseat-unfriendly) bulky snowsuit for her to my emergency kit that I kept in the trunk, in case our vehicle did break down while we were out. Actually, I kept winter wear for the entire family in it as well ...

[801kelle]

I live in Utah.. and last winter it got below freezing for 20 days in a row. In the mornings when it is cold and before we are going to leave the house.. I go out to the car in my garage.. open the door part way.. start my car and turn the heater on full blast. I always put my daughter's jacket on before getting her out of the car when we get to our destination. It only takes a second. I jump in the backseat, close the door when it is cold and or snowy and unbuckle her and put her jacket it on and away we go. I just use a blanket as I said before. When we are leaving a destination and my car is outside I get in the car, close the door take off her jacket, put her in her seat and put her blanket over her. Turn on the car and heater.

Also we have an emergency bag we keep in our car in the winter. ... with polar fleece pants, tops.. thick socks, mittens, hats boots etc.. if our car were to break down or get stranded. For regular winter days.. below freezing or not.. I always take her everyday coat, hat and mittens and put them on when we get to our destination.

[801kelle]

Please just read these articles...

In the article below this is what it says as well as the quote I have pasted:

In order to become a certified CPS tech, Ellis had to take an extensive car seat safety course and pass both a written exam and hands-on car seat installation exams. "When I took my tech class we were shown a picture of an infant seat with a snowsuit under the harness," she says. "The seat was pulled out of a car that had just been in a crash. The infant was ejected from the seat and the car and was found some feet away from the car, but the snowsuit was left in the seat just as the baby was wearing it."


QUOTE:

"It is unsafe to put a thick coat, snowsuit, or blanket on under the harness of a car seat," Ellis says. "In a crash the coat would compress, making the straps too loose and possibly allowing the child to be ejected from the seat."

"The car seat harness needs to stay close to the child’s body at all times. If a coat is in between the harness and the child's body it could cause the child to be ejected from the seat. All coats and clothing will compress in a crash, but thicker winter coats and snowsuits could compress enough to allow the child to be ejected from the car seat."

ARTICLE QUOTE ABOVE CAME FROM:

http://babyproducts.about.com/od/carseats/a/carseatcoat.htm

Car seats are made to function one way.. to be tight against the child's body..they are not crash tested with jackets on .. just regular clothes.. and are made and meant to work to protect your child in a crash.. if used properly.. by pulling harness straps so they are against their body.. How would you expect your car seat to work in a crash if you didn't have it installed properly? Same thing about buckling your child in it properly... how is it supposed to work if it isn't buckled properly.. just as an adult if they didn't have their seatbelt fastened how would it work?

HERE IS ANOTHER QUOTE AND ARTICLE:

One of the basics of correct car seat installation, in addition to buckling the car seat tightly into your vehicle, is that your child is 'buckled snugly' into the car seat itself. If the harness straps are loose, then your child can be injured or could even fly out of the car seat if you are in a crash

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration also recommends that 'to keep your baby the safest, always remove bulky clothing or blankets before you place the child in the seat. Then, put the blanket or coat over the baby. You should never place anything thick underneath the baby, unless that item came with the car seat originally — which tells you it's been tested by the manufacturer. When a child is wearing a thick coat, it's hard to tell if you have a good harness fit, which is crucial. A coat can add a lot of slack, reducing the level of protection for your child in a crash.'

Instead of putting your child in a car seat with a heavy winter coat, the Texas Department of Public Safety recommends that you 'keep your child in the clothes they will be wearing when they are indoors. Place the child in the infant seat or car seat, making sure the harness straps are snug over the shoulders and that they lie straight and flat down to the buckle. Buckle the child in and THEN put the coat or blanket OVER them - on TOP of the harness system. You can even turn the coat around and put his arms through the sleeves after he is buckled into his car seat. This will ensure your kids are kept snug in their seat, the harness system is able to do its job in the event of a crash, and that the kids stay warm.'

ARTICLE QUOTE IS FROM:

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/carseats/a/0107_wintercoat.htm

[doberbrat]

I’m another New Englander who takes the coat off at the car. I keep a thick fleece blanket and just tuck that around her. If she’s cold, she keeps it on. When she gets hot, she throws it off.

I do have a remote car starter so I use that as well.

And, I’ve ALWAYS kept extra winter clothes & a blanket in the car. I broke down once in 0 deg weather. It was just me & my Doberman. Fortunately, I had a good coat for her in the car as well. I bundled her up, she crawled into my lap and we crawled under the blanket while we waited for AAA to show up.