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atlbaby
05-04-2003, 11:41 AM
I don't think I've ever used this forum, and I would also love some tips from all of you seasoned moms, but this seems like it's going to be more of a rant than Lounge material!

So last week I posted about Arielle's refusal to sit in her bath and her lack of enjoyment in it. It hasn't gotten better, but I'm gathering that it's not an uncommon occurence. I try my best to make it fun for her, and just do my best to clean her while she's standing holding onto the tub side (which makes for LOTS of water sloshing overboard since her head is not really over the tub!). So while I'd like her to enjoy herself (and hey, being pleasant wouldn't hurt either, right?), I'm taking the "this too shall pass" attitude.

BUT, now she's taken to having fits when I try to put her in the carseat! Two on Thursday, and one this morning--Friday was fine for some reason so I'd thought Thursday was a fluke. Um, guess not. It's funny, when I took her for her 18 month visit on Wednesday, I asked the ped for his thoughts on power struggles/fits. I said I thought it would be a good idea to try and pick and choose my battles, but wanted his take. He said that's the way to do it, and sited refusal to sit in a carseat as an example of what is NOT negotiable. At the time, (since this was Wednesday) I had no idea what he meant. And then suddenly (one day into her 18th month--is this an indication of what's to come??) the next day she has a royal fit when I try to get her in the car.

I know I'm not the only one going through this, which is why I feel I'm complaining/moaning, but what should I do? If I don't have time constaints (or strict ones), I could let her run around and then try to put her in the car, but she doesn't understand "Ok Arielle you can play outside for 3 minutes and then we have to go"!! I fear I'll have a WORSE fit (which doesn't seem possible, but I'm SURE I'm being naive) when I try to get her in the car AFTER playing!!

Another thing, I hate to use "force" to sometimes keep her on the changing table, but of course it's necessary to keep her from flying off. She is so strong, and I am so NOT strong, but still I worry I'm hurting her. But I figure it's better that I don't let her crack her head open, right? Should I try and force her to stay in the carseat? Is that being cruel? I'm getting worried imagining a screaming newborn and Arielle-fit at the same time!!!

I feel a bit better now that I've gone off on the issue. Any tips/advice would be great.

Thanks for listening,

-Rachel
Mom to Arielle Jill, 10/30/01
#2:) EDD 10/24/03

KathyO
05-04-2003, 02:10 PM
I agree with your ped about picking your battles, but you're right - the car seat is NOT negotiable. Unfortunately, she's too young to understand behaviour-consequence in the abstract ("If you don't sit in your car seat, then we can't go visit Grandma/go to the playground/whatever...") so yes, a judicious use of your superior strength/dexterity is occasionally called for, IMHO. I have had some success with the "pseudo-choice" ploy... "Do you want to wear your pink sun hat or the yellow one?" "Do you want your teddy with you in the car seat, or your book?" which sometimes succeeds in distracting the child from the "real issue" (You WILL wear a sun hat, you WILL sit in the car seat...) It depends on the child's ability to understand the options and communicate a choice... and it also helps to use this BEFORE the battle lines have been drawn.

For changing, you may want to switch to changing on the floor, which means you don't have to devote so much of your energy to keeping her from falling off! You could try distracting her during changing with a toy or a book, but that never did work for me. On the REALLY wiggly days, I have what I privately call "the child-abuse position"... she lies on the floor, I kneel astride her, facing her feet, with my two knees squeezing the flailing arms snug to her sides, while my hands stay free to cope with the kicking legs and the task of diapering. It sounds bizarre, but it works, and I can get the whole operation done very quickly, and it never seems to distress her at all. I figure, you have to do SOMETHING - leaving her in a filthy diaper is NOT an option, and neither is letting her fall off the change table!

I know it's distressing to have to con and coerce your child from time to time, but I think at this age you are showing them that physical resistance does not change the fact that certain things are non-negotiable where Mom is concerned. Eventually they, too, learn to pick their battles. DD's physical resistance to being changed peaked at around 19-20 months, and has decreased ever since.

I hope that helps! I look forward to the day when DD and I can negotiate more with words, but that won't be for a while yet.

Cheers,

KathyO

newbelly2002
05-04-2003, 02:22 PM
Oh, Rachel. That sounds terrible. This is the part of parenting that I've always dreaded. The fits.

I wish I had some advice, but all I can offer is sympathy. Dante is much younger than Arielle, but he has started just in the last week to discover his own will. And discover it loudly. I'm actually going to post something in another forum asking for the best way to deal with what is clearly a temper tantrum. Perhaps someone will have some wise words of wisdom. Till then, this--along with the molars--will
pass.

Off to the lounge...

Paula, Mama to Dante 8/1/02
http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b33a3c3de467

Roleysmom
05-04-2003, 04:00 PM
I don't have too much advice but want to say that I'm right there with you in your struggles! Roley turned 16 months old (unbelieveable!) today and has really started to exert herself over the last few weeks. This weekend, for example, she has decided that she will not sit in her booster seat. (We use that for a high chair since she hates the kinderzeat knock-off.) She wants to sit in the regular kitchen chair next to me. I've decided that's okay, as long as she is sitting while she eats. I wonder all of the time which battles I should choose and how far is too far to go? With the sitting in her high chair, I've decided as long as she sits and is safe, I don't care where she sits. Maybe that's way too lenient. Up to this point, my policy has always been that it's not important to make the point that, "No, you can't do this." It's more important to keep her from doing the things that she should not do. So, like you, I use a lot of distraction techniques. I know for sure that my in-laws disagree with this and think I need to make the point that I'm in charge by telling her no. This just doesn't feel right to me. I am also interested in thoughts from seasoned mommies and daddies.

About the diaper changing, like KathyO, I have moved to changing her on the floor. I also announce a few minutes before I'm going to change her that she's ready for a change and I need a diaper assistant. (I make that sound like the most exciting job in the whole world!) Then I collect the supplies and give her a nearly empty container of wipes and the diaper ointment to hold. That usually keeps her busy. When it doesn't, and she's crying, trying to wiggle away, etc. I hold her as firmly as possible (better with help!) and talk calmly (I know your uncomfortable but this will be done soon, etc." For the car seat, does she have a favorite cd? Even if it's a struggle to get her in the seat and she's upset, if you turned on the cd player right away and sang to her favorite songs, would that help? I'm thinking that your intuition that maybe the playing and then trying the car seat again might not work could be right. It does seem like it would be harder to get her in the seat the second time.

Sorry not much help, but looking forward to hearing how it's going.

Paula
-- mom to Roley Julia
01-04-02

jojo2324
05-04-2003, 04:01 PM
No tips (yet!!) on the carseat bit, but we have trouble too with the changing table. I think that we are going to graduate to the floor pretty soon, mainly because I just can't heft him up there umpteen times a day and expect my spinal cord to remain intact. He is quite squirmy, and it's getting increasingly difficult to keep him still long enough to swap clean for dirty.

One trick I have is keeping a small arsenal of toys up on the changing table. He does not play with them normally; they only come out during diaper changes. I whip those out while changing him and they usually keep him happy long enough to get the job done. I know there is a big age difference between them, but it's just a little something that's worked for me.

Good luck! :D

momathome
05-04-2003, 07:44 PM
It sounds like you are on the right track! I know it's frustrating - Kasey is a very strong-willed 2 year-old who wants to do everything by herself, including tonight when I tried to put her in her carseat and she climbed right out so she could climb in on her own. I think your best bet is to let her have as much control as possible when it comes to non-safety issues and when it comes to situations like sitting in her carseat, just be quick and firm - not everything needs to be up for negotiation! Good luck!
-Lauren

egoldber
05-04-2003, 08:31 PM
I really think this is the hardest part so far of parenting for me. Trying to walk the line between being too rigid and being too permissive has been a hard one for me especially. It's always hard to decide what is the right balance. But what I have found works best for us has been ZERO negotiation. If I want to put her in the carseat and she objects, she goes in the carseat with no discussion. That is something she MUST do. If I need to change her diaper, and she objects, I change her diaper with NO discussion. I have to change her diaper so I do. What I have read is that reasoning with them at this point in their little lives doesn't help and only rewards the behavior with the attention they want. And I have found that after a few days of doing this consistently, the behavior goes away. Not to say it never comes back, but it usually isn't as bad when it does resurface.

I do try to give Sarah lots of choices about things that are not important. Peas or broccoli with lunch? Pink socks or purple socks? White sandals or brown sandals? Wiggles or Elmo? Go to the park before snack or after nap? Do we ride the tricycle or take the stroller to the park? But I also try to make it clear that when I say she must do something, then there is no discussion.

When I try to describe this philosophy, I always feel like I am such a "mean" mommy. But I swear that our day is (usually) confrontation free! And I think I have a very "easy", relaxed style with her. But I have tried from a fairly early age with Sarah (10 months or so on) to reinforce that what mommy says goes. And I do let her "win" occasionally. But only VERY occasionally.

Good luck!

Shirale
05-04-2003, 08:58 PM
Oh poor Rachel!
I was so spaced out when we spoke today, I didn't even think of telling you that we have a similar issue- with the stroller. She just wants to run and run away from me, and when I try to get her in the stroller, oy. And the changing table thing has been a problem for quite some time, although unl;ike the other Mommies, I have better luck with her on the changing table then the floor. I try to distract her (in all tantrum situations) and if that fails, I tell her "I'm sorry but Mommy has to (change your diaper, put you in the stroller, get you dressed, give you a bath, etc) ....and just kinda let her flip out for the minute she will (although lately she has taken to flailing her entire body so I have to hold her quickly or she'll smack her head on the floor and then scream like it is my fault....)so far the distraction seems to be the best way....plus, when I change her or get her dressed, I count every step (put on the shirt, one, two, three, shoes one two three ect etc) which I have been doing since she was born and it seems to reassure her that it is almost over...we've gone through bath refusals, stroller tantrums are common...it is so hard when they don't understand that we are trying to do what is bet for them, and we don't understand why whatever it is is bothering them so much...giving them choices is also a great strategy, and I am trying to use that as well....
oh well, I guess not too much advice here- but I do totally feel for you! Good luck tomorow at the ultrasound!!!!!

twins r fun
05-04-2003, 09:12 PM
Rachel,

I'm right there with you on the fits! And how such little people have such superhuman strength is baffling! I've been meaning to tell you about our carseat situation. Jacob and Caleb USED TO throw fits (stiffening, screaming, rolling out) when we tried to get them in the seats. They did this right around when they started walking well (15 months) and it continued for about a month (not every time, but often enough). I would just use force to get them in and ignore the screams. I always felt bad, but it's not like it was a negotioable situation and I wasn't planning on standing in a parking lot for 5 or 10 minutes waiting for them to WANT to get in. I basically just had to use my forearm against the length of their body to make them bend and sit into the seat, then try to hold them in place while I buckled them in. I'm sure people who saw me were thinking I was mean and abusive, but it wasn't like I was hurting them. The car seat tantrums gradually tapered off and then stopped and they have not done it at all in at least a month or more. This sort of resolved itself around the time we turned them forward facing, but I don't know if that was just coincidental (it was already tapering off). They were doing the same thing in the stroller frequently, too and that has gotten much better, but depending on what I am making them leave behind, it still happens sometimes! One thing that I do use sometimes for the stroller (which would work for the carseat, too) is to hand them a cracker or pretzel or something before I pick them up to put them in it and then they are so interested in their snack that they don't pay attention to the fact that they are getting strapped in the stroller. I know that's kind of bad, but I found that with two, I couldn't sit and fight with one for even a minute to get into the stroller or the other would be out of sight before I was done. Obviously it's essential to give them the food before they even think of throwing a fit so it doesn't seem like you are rewarding their tantrum.

I definitely think picking your battles is important and so is being consistent. Once you've picked the battle, you've got to enforce it every time. Also I guess the opposite is true, if it's not a battle you're going to fight, than don't do a half hearted "no, you can't do that" on occasion. I think we are certainly heading into(and already in the midst of) a very trying age! My boys still think it's funny when I say "NO" and they don't stop what they are doing until I actually make them so I think we're in for a bumpy road on the discipline front. I think the key is to go to many public places, watch the bratty kids and see how their parents discipline them... and then do the opposite! Not only do you figure out some techniques, you sure get lots of motivation to put the energy into disciplining your child. I sure learned a lot form a dad at the bookstore tonight!

atlbaby
05-04-2003, 09:28 PM
Thanks for all the support and advice everyone!!! I've gotten some great tips here! I'd say I can't wait to use them, but you know...that's not quite true.:)

Like Shira, I've had much more luck changing Arielle on the changing table rather than the floor. I've had to change her on the floor when we are out/at my inlaws etc, but she tends to roll away MORE then, and I think my being on the floor doesn't give me a good angle to "maintain" her. And I love your counting steps method for getting dressed! I think I'll adopt it (we don't have dressing issues right now, but you never know...) I've started to have Arielle "help" put her pjs in the hamper, get me her shoes/socks etc lately, and that's been fun for her.


Like Joanne, I have a bunch of "changing table toys" (books, squeaky eggs mainly) that usually work. It's mainly the first 30 seconds or so that she is on the changing table that is a problem, and after giving it some thought today I'm thinking that maybe a general problem for Arielle is transitions. So I'll have to do some thinking on how to work on that. Off the top of my head, announcing what we will be doing in a minute is an idea. I do this before bedtime, so she can get a book to take with her, so maybe I need to incorporate this into other areas. What do you guys think?

Lauren, I like your idea about a "changing assistant"--maybe I'll use that as a good transition for diaper changes!

Beth, I know you said you feel like when you write out your approach it sounds like you're a mean mommy, but I don't think so at all! On the contrary, I would like to have it work so that some things are Zero Negotiation, and others are Choices. When you say to Sarah that carseats are not up for discussion, what do you mean exactly? Does she *know* what you are telling her? Do you just not talk anymore but put her in the carseat? And when you give her choices about clothing, does she really care at this age if she gets purple or pink socks? I'm trying to give Arielle choices about videos (Wiggles or Elmo) and I do think she is beginning to care, but with clothing she's never expressed any interest/notice. And with food too, I'm not sure if she has preferrences--until it's on her plate and she doesn't eat it I guess! I would like to give her more freedom with small things though, in the hopes that the "big" things will go more smoothly. If you could tell me a bit more of how you work it with Sarah that'd be great!!

It is such a relief to me to hear of others who have gone/are going through these stages. When we are in the "thick" of things I try and remember this and it really helps. Thanks again everyone--I'll keep you posted!

Edited to add: Nicole, I think we were writing at the same time because I didn't see your response until I'd sent mine! I like your advice on watching other parents--with bratty kids--in public to give me strength! I hadn't thought to give Arielle a pretzel/snack before I even try to get her in the car--that wouldn't be giving bribery for this young an age since she won't have started the fit, and might not realize what's coming (carseat/stroller), right?:)

-Rachel
Mom to Arielle Jill, 10/30/01
#2:) EDD 10/24/03

egoldber
05-04-2003, 11:08 PM
What Nicole said is very similar to what I do. I don't explain "you have to get in the seat", I would just put her in the seat. Or I would say something like, "It's time to change your diaper", she would struggle and I would just change her anyway. I would NOT explain, I would just do it.

I offer her the other choices, precisely because neither she nor I really cares if she has peas or broccoli or pink or purple socks. BUT I think it gives her a sense that she DOES have some power to make choices.

HTH,

AngelaS
05-05-2003, 05:57 AM
I agree with the other posters that some of the things in a toddler's life are not negotiable--ie-carseats. I don't remember my oldest having the carseat battles and my youngest isn't there yet, but based on her temperment so far...it's coming! LOL

It's not to early to start in with the super consistent form of parenting. Basically, every time you go somewhere, she will ride in the carseat. If even once, you let her go without being in it, your battle will last longer and be more awful.

Another battle we had, was the stroller one. If we were out for a stroll, I didn't mind letting her walk on the sidewalk. BUT, if she went off the sidewalk or didn't stop if Mommy said stop, she had to ride. She knew very early, that if she ventured off towards the street or decided to keep running when I said to stop, she would go in the stroller. Granted, it's not fun to put a screaming toddler in the stroller in front of all the gawking neighbors, but toddlers are not the boss. If God meant for toddlers to be in charge, He wouldn't have needed to make mothers.

An idea with the diaper changes is to ask her where she wants to be changed. "Do you want your diaper changed on the changing table or on the floor?" You're letter her pick where she gets changed, not IF she gets changed.

Toddlers are so fun, aren't they? I've always thought that the 1/2 years are worse than the true terrible twos---my daughter had rotten stages at 18 mos, 2.5 years and then at 3. She skipped 2. LOL

brubeck
05-05-2003, 09:35 AM
Rachel,

I don't have time this morning to read what everyone else has said but I wanted to say something. Sorry if I repeat others.

Welcome to the Terrible Twos! The little-known truth is that they (like Morning Sickness) are misnamed. They begin about 18 months and supposedly finish (I haven't seen the end yet) at about 42 months. Essentially this is the time when Arielle is struggling for independence and choice. She knows now that she is a person and that she can have thoughts, ideas and wishes other than what you offer.

The pick your battles idea is soooo right. You can't fight them on everything. But you can try to give in when it doesn't really matter. You can also try to give choices. For example, when Amy whines about having lunch I ask her, "Would you like chicken or a sandwich for lunch?" and even if she still doesn't want lunch she's usually involved in the choice. If she doesn't choose I choose for her and if she's not happy then next time she knows to answer to my question.

The carseat is obviously a battle where you can't give in. But you can warn her. 5 minutes before you leave let her know, "Arielle, we're going to the store. You're going to get to sit in the shopping cart.". A minute or two later, "Arielle, we're going to the store. You're going to put on your shoes and we'll be getting in the car.", etc. etc. So that she has some warning. If letting her run around the garage for a few minutes helps then budget that time into your schedule and let her do it. I will warn you though, that has the opposite effect on Amy. Once she's seen something to play with she will fight harder not to get into the car. I have had to take the weirdest items with me on my car trips: garden gloves, car wash cloths, baseballs, a hose spray nozzle, etc. :-)

As for the changing table, why not just change her on the floor? Peds often recommend this as a way to make it safer for babies that thrash a lot on the table.

MartiesMom2B
05-05-2003, 10:14 AM
Beth:

I just wanted to write you and say that you shouldn't feel like a "mean" mommy. I agree with your philosophy and will use it too when Martie is older (after reading this post I'm looking at her saying please don't give me tantrums - yeah right fairy land). My aunt and uncle used this technique as well as maintaining consistency with rules and my cousin(she's 11) is the most well behaved child. I'm sure part of it is my cousin's demeanor but I know that a large part is due to her upbringin.

Sonia
Proud Mommy to Martie 4/6/03
http://www.mcdyer.com/MartieSurasky.htm

atlbaby
05-05-2003, 12:05 PM
Thanks for the advice, Angela and Helen!!

Angela, I will be hoping Arielle is on a half-birthday cycle too--especially since I will be giving birth around her second birthday!:) Although Arielle doesn't do well with diaper changes on the floor, I'm wondering if giving her a choice of floor/changing table might still work.

And Helen, I got a laugh out of picturing all those garage items going in the car with you!!! This morning's outing was my first test, and true to (her new) form, Arielle didn't want to go in the carseat. But I just went ahead and put her in even though she was protesting (yay me!). We made two stops, and out of the three times I had to put her into the carseat, one was no problem. Since I think she is not doing well with transitions, I'm going to try your suggestion and give her warnings a few minutes in advance. Btw, I ordered the potty training book you recommended, just to get an idea of the signs of readiness.

Regarding choices, I'm hearing that a lot of you have had success with presenting a choice at meal time/getting dressed etc--even if they really don't care yet. I've tried this at a few points today, and she doesn't really seem to get the idea. I asked her which socks she wanted, which bib she wanted, and which sippy cup she wanted (I thought *that* would work since she LOVES her cups!). I guess I'll just keep at it, but I'm wondering if she's just too young to understand.

I'm sorry I'm asking so many follow up questions! I'm just trying to get a handle on things--I know I've got a long road ahead of me!!

-Rachel
Mom to Arielle Jill, 10/30/01
#2:) EDD 10/24/03

twins r fun
05-05-2003, 12:31 PM
The teachers from the infants and toddlers program use the choices apporach in an effort to get Jacob and Caleb to vocalize (as do I when I can). Well Caleb's got the situation all figured out and he sits/stands perfectly still with his hands at his sides while we show him the choices. He looks at each one and then in an extremely quick movement swoops both hands up there and grabs both items! It's so funny to see because it is such a calculated action. The teachers and I just end up laughing so hard every time.

twins r fun
05-05-2003, 12:33 PM
And WHAT is wrong with my picture!? I didn't do anything!!

Nicole

atlbaby
05-05-2003, 04:50 PM
That is *too* funny!!! So cute that he momentarily acts like he WILL make a decision and then doesn't! (well, I guess he chooses both!) For the past few weeks I've been trying to prepare Arielle for bed by telling her, a few minutes before bedtime, that she should choose one book to take with her to bed. Usually she chooses a ball. :) And sometimes when it's taking too long I present 2 books, and she usually looks and slaps both of them to the floor! I love how they think outside the box!

-Rachel
Mom to Arielle Jill, 10/30/01
#2:) EDD 10/24/03

brubeck
05-05-2003, 06:21 PM
If possible when asking her to make a choice, hold the two items in front of her. If you're saying, "Which book would you like to read?" hold them out and let her grab the one she wants. If it's clothing you can do the same thing. For lunch I hold out the packages or bread (to signify a sandwich).

Oh another thing that worked for me temporarily in the carseat thing: we installed our old RA rear-facing in the car about 2 months before Andrew was born. Amy got used to seeing it there and so she wasn't too surprised when Andrew went in there on the way home from the hospital.

The added benefit is that there were a few days when the only way I got her in the carseat was by strapping her Elmo into the rear-facing one. Of course now that Andrew occupies it we can't strap in Elmo, but I usually do put in the baby first, and I think this helps with her compliance. It also gives her just enough time to run around the garage and find the garden gloves. :-)

MKH76
05-05-2003, 06:31 PM
I'm pretty new around here, and I like alot of the responses for this subject. My little guy is getting into this stage. Aurgh!!

Somewhere, somehow I must have been singing the Itsy Bitsy Spider while putting Joshua in the car seat, and now he has come to expect it...complete with him lifting his arms up and snap he's in the seat. He does very well with small routines. Another routine is the high chair, he fusses at first, but then he knows his face and hands get washed, feeding bib and he holds the spoon while I finish getting lunch ready. I feel like as long as he knows there is a reason for being restrained, he doesn't fuss about it. At this age, he just wants to be so independent.

There are days that I resort to changing the diaper with him standing up. He'll even lift one leg at a time to make sure I do a good clean up job.

sweetbasil
05-05-2003, 11:18 PM
Helen,
THANKS so much for the idea about getting DS#1 ready for DS#2 by installing the carseat early...I never would've thought of that! I mean, we had it installed 1 1/2 mo before DS#1 so we, the adults could get used to it, for Pete's sake. Man, prego brain's hitting me pretty hard this time around.... :)

Rach~
I'll talk to ya tomorrow, promise...hope this evening's bedtime routine with Arielle was perfect! :)

brubeck
05-06-2003, 09:47 AM
Not only that, we did other stuff like move the crib to the new nursery (after the move to a big girl bed), hide the high chair and baby toys so she doesn't remember they were hers, move the changing table to the new nursery, etc. etc.

We actually had our house set up a couple of months in advance of Andrew's arrival. Our thought was that we wanted Amy's life/routine to chnage as little as possible after the baby was born so we made a lot of the changes (slowly) before he came.