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flagger
06-08-2003, 09:49 AM
"They" who tell me that we must put Cocoa to sleep on her back because the risk of SIDS is lower. Will someone tell "they" that my wife and I both slept on our stomach and lived to tell the tale? Will someone tell the Back to Sleep nazis that "they" were not in my house the past two nights as Cocoa was up every 15 minutes and that when I put her down on her stomach at 0200 this morning she slept until 0530? Will someone also remind them that everyone has to do what works for them?

Cocoa plain and simple sleeps for longer more restful periods when she is on her stomach. When she rests mom and dad rest and that makes for one helluva a happy family. Quite frankly for our situation the risk of SIDS is so infintesimal that we find that more restful periods of sleep for all is worth the gamble. Sorry if I sound cynical as I love my daughter, but if her number gets punched and it is her time to go there really isn't a [email protected] thing we can do about it as far as SIDS is concerned.

Argghhhhh!

Jenmv
06-08-2003, 10:27 AM
I agree sometimes you have to weigh the risk and make educated decisions based on what works best for you, however for people with a history of sleep apnea problems in their family I would be more diligent about putting their babies to sleep on their backs. The first time dh saw my mother bouncing our dd on her lap face down to soothe her nighttime fussies I thought he was going to go nuts. He was so freaked out by all of the back to sleep info that he was afraid to have her on her stomach even when she was awake!! I have heard other mothers admit that they let their kids sleep on their stomach when that was the only thing that soothed them. My dd typically slept better on her back or side so it was never really an issue for me but I will admit to using a hand knit blanket in the crib. She is always kicking it off anyway, that is why I don't use the sleep sacks as she gets too sweaty in anything fleece. I'm sure 20 years from now their will be something else that we should never do that we all do now.

I was sent home with a little reminder bracelet to put on my baby that said "back to sleep, don't shake me or smoke around me". Do you really think someone who is so out of control as to shake a baby is going to stop and read a bracelet?

jojo2324
06-08-2003, 10:55 AM
I agree, sometimes you just have to weigh the risks. To each his own. I have pictures of me sleeping in my crib, on my belly, with a huge down comforter covering me. I am here. BUT it is true that the SIDS rates have dropped significantly since the "Back-to-Sleep" campaign started.

I, for one, was diligent about Gannon sleeping on his back. I was so freaked out by the idea of SIDS. (But then, I am a complete and total worrywart.) I went so far as to flip him over, which would inevitably wake him up. But that was a risk I was willing to take. And I can tell you now, even with Gannon sleeping on his belly (I am not diligent anymore), that my sleep has not been restful. :D

If you want a different perspective on the situation, go to the SIDS boards on ParentsPlace.

liya
06-08-2003, 11:00 AM
ITA Arian sleeps with me and hubby in my bed, there has been no probs with the SIDS factor and he sleeps in his back in his side and on his tummy...whatever hes in the mood for that day...it saves my bad mood for not sleeping and my sanity...lol

flagger
06-08-2003, 11:03 AM
I guess our feeling is looking at a 40% reduction in the amount of SIDS still doesn't guarantee that SIDS will not take place if the baby is sleeping on his back or side. If it was a 100% reduction, then we might buy into that argument.

However, we feel the risk of ALL the factors in SIDS cases do not apply and a restful sleep for all three is worth the risk. I was merely venting at those who try to make us feel guily that we are "killing" our baby by letting her sleep on her stomach.

Marisa6826
06-08-2003, 11:18 AM
OK- Just my two cents here. I'm not looking to tick you off at all, but:

As a parent that has already lost a child - I pray and hope that you would never have to experience that pain.

I personally keep Sophie on her back. She's used to it at this point and prefers it - although she recently started pulling herself to her side, so who knows.

Maybe the solution is to simply not tell people what position you're putting the baby to sleep in.

Believe me, I COMPLETELY and TOTALLY understand what it's like to have a screaming child on your hands when all you want to do is sleep. We've all been there. Babies as young as Cocoa don't sleep regularly. In fact, for the first three MONTHS Sophie routinely didn't go to sleep till until 2am **at the earliest**. Actually, on several occasions, it was really closer to 4:30-5am.

We're just looking out for Cocoa's best interest!!

Sweet dreams to all

-m

Denyse
06-08-2003, 11:44 AM
I, too, have lost a child and have to agree with m. For me, extra sleep is just not worth the risk. DH and I struggled in those early days, as well. Brett, much like Cocoa, would not sleep longer than 15 minutes laying down. We spent much of the first 4 weeks of his life, sleeping in shifts, while the other sat in the comfy chair w/ Brett on our chest. It was tough, I won't lie but very much worth it to us. We were persistent in always putting DS on his back and one day, it worked. We made sure the top of his head was touching the end of the bassinet and voila! Sleep for 2 hours! From there, it just gets easier and easier. At 4 months, he sleeps 3-4 hour stretches and always on his back. For me, the struggle was worth it to have that extra assurance that we are doing everything possible to keep ds alive and healthy.
Good luck. These first weeks are hard but it does get easier with time!

I wanted to edit this to add, I definitely don't want to sound like I'm criticizing. Just stating my thoughts on the matter.

flagger
06-08-2003, 01:24 PM
My condolences for both of your losses.

However I was merely using this forum for what it is for, to bitch and moan. My bitch was a result of a few responses back to updated pictures we sent out to our email list (not posted on her website) that included two photos of her sleeping peacefully on her stomach. Two people elected to send us links to the SIDS Alliance and one even told us how allowing her to sleep like that could kill her.

Our sleep is not what is important, her restful sleep however is. We have learned that she truly sleeps longer and more restfully on her stomach.

I just want to add that though I did not take offense, I cannot remember anyone ever being told: Maybe the solution is: "not to talk to your MIL about your crib purchases, or stop reading ePregnancy, or stop watching The View, etc."

Our personal opinion on this issue is back sleeping is not a 100% guarantee that SIDS can be prevented. As such, as our child prefers tummy sleeping over back and side sleeping that happens to be what is in the best interest for her and for us. We can all just peacefully agree to disagree.

kurosch
06-08-2003, 04:04 PM
...

stillplayswithbarbies
06-08-2003, 08:29 PM
Scream all you want, but "they" are right. The risk of SIDS is lower when babies sleep on their backs.

One theory of SIDS is that some babies sleep so soundly that they stop breathing, that they literally forget to breathe. This is one reason that babies who cosleep are at lower risk of SIDS, they are believed to follow the same sleep pattern as the adults in the bed.

But I do agree that everyone should do their own research and make the decisions that are best for them and accept the risks that they are comfortable with.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel 2/27/91
Logan Elizabeth 3/25/03

mama2be
06-08-2003, 08:32 PM
Edited to say I have not read the others post...but just wanted to add this :)...

Flagger I am such a beleiver in doing what works for you and as you know I respect anyones parenting styles, and you look like you are doing everything perfectly so this is not to say change by any stretch of the imagination-I'm just typing :).... "They" don't really seem to know what causes SIDS and of course this is the new movement...i chose to listen but as of late Tristan does like being on his side more than his back. It is of course a very small chance but I have worked first hand and seen more than my share of babies death from SIDS (and incorrect car seat isntallation) and there is nothing more devastating where if "they" told me to run circles around a Tee Pee pow wowing I think I'd do it :)...
I cringe at so many things based on that experience, infact just yesterday we saw plastic rings where the "jewel" is candy and I remember a daddy sporting one with his older kids...he put it in his babies mouth and the baby sucked it so hard that it choked the child...and of course the result was awful...I guess I have had some awful exposure to things where I advocate some things that are very different than others...

But that's just me...having worked at a huge trauma center I can say there is nothing that effected me more than seeing young children who died and though to the public that seems far and few between but to folks in that setting it seems common..sadly...

flagger
06-08-2003, 08:42 PM
Again, there is NO guarantee that SIDS is eliminated by back sleeping. The only research indicates that there is a less occurence of it for back sleeping than tummy sleeping, not that it was eliminated 100% of the time.

The risk for our situation and lifestyle are so small that is a gamble we are willing to take. As I said before, we believe that when someone's number gets punched for whatever reason in this instance there isn't anything we can do about it.

I just find it odd of many bitch and moan posts in here about various subjects I have never once seen someone say "You know your MIL is right".

We will just have to agree to disagree and if tummy sleeping offends anyone probably looking at what will be new pictures on her website might bother some. There is nothing more peaceful and cute than a baby with his or her butt in the air!

Rachels
06-08-2003, 09:10 PM
People are being pretty diplomatic and I appreciate that, but I suspect you know this is an inflammatory post. I think you're asking a lot to say we should all just agree to disagree when you're talking about blatant safety risks. The likelihood that Cocoa's "number will be up" increases if you deliberately make a choice that puts her in harm's way.

Just to put another spin on this, I imagine that the people who have sent you the SIDS stuff have done so because they care for you and for Cocoa. You're a very new parent. It's early to make such a rock-solid decision about what works best for you, especially when it has to do with something that could compromise your child's well-being. Yes, there are times it makes sense to let babies sleep on their bellies. And I know how precious sleep is for infants and their parents. But you're new at this. You can't have tried all the options yet. And personally, I can't really understand why you would prioritize sleep over something that gives her a greater chance of continuing to breathe all night long.

Very few things have a 100% truth to them. 100% of people who smoke don't die of cancer, and 100% of people who use cocaine don't have heart attacks, but it's still injudicious to do those things. A 40% increase in the survival of babies is pretty huge.

You have the right to make this choice, but it's expecting a lot to think that people will just smile and give their approval. But like I said, I think you know that already.


Edited to add: please be careful with your use of the term "nazi." That's a group of people who slaughtered millions of innocents, not a group of people who are concerned with the safety of our littlest children.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

flagger
06-08-2003, 09:33 PM
Well excuse me.

Said by the description of this forum:

Sound off about baby
products, web sites, and
whatever is bothering you!

It was not to get approval, it was not to inflame. It was to rant.

In our humble opinion, 90% of the time parental intuition is the right thing to do for their situation. There are so many other factors and risks in SIDS research that we don't even come close to falling in line with.

We have learned that her being overtired does not make for a happy baby. Again, there is no incidence of SIDS in our family history, we both slept on our tummies and survived. I disagree that this issue is a "blatant safety risk". To us a blatant safety risk would be if we posted we didn't use a car seat, or used a crib with lead based paint. We do use one and we have a new crib, BTW.

memedee
06-08-2003, 09:39 PM
I hear all the time"In my day we didn't have safety gates and car seats etc etc and we lived to tell the tale".
Those are the lucky ones that lived to tell the tale.
The unlucky ones can't speak.
I personally would not make a choice for my children based on the fact that I survived.
No judgement ,just my humble opinion

Rachels
06-08-2003, 10:03 PM
I know that. It's clear you love her dearly, too. And I certainly understand ranting. I've done my share of it. I do think this is a hot topic. I'm sorry it bothers you so greatly to hear another side to the tummy-sleeping thing, though.

And, FWIW, I TOTALLY agree with you about the adorableness of a baby tush in the air!

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

emilyr
06-08-2003, 10:46 PM
A coworkers wife and I were just discussing the other day how their new daughter slept better on her tummy but they were afraid to let her sleep that way. I have had other friends who's babies slept much better on their tummies so that is the way they went. I always put Ashton on his back but he slept fine that way. Anyway, back to the original thought.... my coworker's wife (they are both nurses) had read in a journal that Canada had done a study that SIDS had been reduced by delaying any vaccinations until babies were one year. So, to me this only reinforces the fact that we still don't know what exactly causes SIDS and that there is no 100% solution.

I personally feel that putting babies on their back reduces the risk especially for those babies that were lying on beds with fluffy bedding and quilts, pillow, etc. However, I know that parents can do everything "right" and still something can happen (I worked near an ER and responded to a SIDS "code blue").

Let me edit to say that the smiley icon IS NOT supposed to be there!!!! (I see it in the post but not when I'm typing)

This is a very volatile subject but I completely understand your frustration with "they" that think their way is best for YOUR child and situation. My mother is still baffled at how it was "safer" for me to put my child on his back when he spit up so frequently and could choke on his own spit up!

It is obvious to all of us that you love Cocoa very much and as parents we all want the best for our children. In most instances we have to go with our gut feeling and what feels right in our hearts. In a few years (or sooner) they will discover something else that we are currently doing wrong and putting our babies at risk! We just have to pray that what we do works and our babies grow up happy and healthy in the environment we provide for them.

Sorry this is long...

Emily

carolcarpenter
06-09-2003, 01:22 AM
Wow...

I am expecting in 2 weeks. If someone told me that the risk of SIDS was only ONE percent lower when the baby is on his back, I would put him on his back. I wouldn't care how much fuss he made.
I could NEVER live with myself if I ignored a risk and something happened.
And I would certainly never refer to my baby dying as his "number getting punched."

Neither of the points:
--previous generation slept on their stomachs and lived
--no family history of SIDS
are at all logical.

A baby's safety is not a thing you can make an EMOTIONAL decision about. I am shocked that someone would defend a practice contrary to all available scientific evidence by saying "everyone needs to do what works for them."

One thing flagger didn't mention is if they are using a baby monitor, especially the kind that can detect lack of breathing. This may be a factor in the flaggers feeling more confident about the risk of SIDS.
I'm curious to know if this is the case.

flagger
06-09-2003, 04:45 AM
No we are not using any type of baby breathing monitoring device. We have a video monitor, but don't turn on the TV all the time. Again, the available evidence does not say that the risk of SIDS is 100% reduced. There are babies sadly the pass on from SIDS who were put to sleep on their back, lived in a smoke free house, were not children of Native or African Americans, who were breastfed, etc. We feel that it if is going to happen it will no matter if the baby sleeps on their back or on their tummy.

Secondly, there are several risk factors involved. One of those is a family history of SIDS.

We personally believe that death is a transformation from one life to the next. Our faith tells us when someone is called home it is a result of pre-destination. We will never go through life thinking "if only". I stopped dwelling on The Road Not Taken years and years ago. There are events in life that about which we cannot comprehend or understand the reasoning. Perhaps after our own transformation will those events become clear.

Each generation takes the available information and does what works for them. Now I am off to worry about things I can control thanks for letting me vent.

Wonders how to torment Cocoa's future suitors....muhahahhahaha

ddmarsh
06-09-2003, 07:35 AM
I find your basic premise to be an unfortunate misinterpretation of the facts on several levels. First, the argument that you and DW survived is not a valid one because it is such a small sample of the data. The point is that there were many, many children who did not survive, how fortunate that you and DW did. Second, the facts on SIDS do *not* state that it is primarily due to the risk factors that you outline. The facts state that placing babies on their stomachs is the primary risk factor with some additional factors playing somewhat of a role. While at first glance this distinction may appear to be a fine I believe giving thought to the distinction between these two interpretations shows that they are vastly different interpretations of the facts.

I have been a parent for 11 years. When DS#1 was born babies slept on their stomachs, it simply was not an issue. By the time DS#2 was born 24 months later the change had begun. I never for once thought it was acceptable to continue placing my babies on their stomachs because DS#1 survived. Quite the contrary, I felt fortunate that he had been ok and thrilled to know that there was more data on which to base my actions with my children.

There will be many areas in parenting for you to make subjective decisions based on what is best for you particular family unit. You will have to decide how much television your DD will watch, what types of activities she will participate in, where she will go to school, etc. Child safety in general and this issue in particular is simply not a subjective area. I personally feel that one can never approach parenting with too much humility, it is a vast every-changing, ever-challenging job that requires us to continually learn, grow and develop our skills and information. I've no doubt that you love your daughter and hope that you will make decisions for her based not only on your love for her but on the facts as well.

Best wishes -
Debbie

momathome
06-09-2003, 08:14 AM
I know you are saying that putting your baby to sleep on her back is not a 100% guarantee to ward off SIDS, but a 40% drop-off is pretty signifigant - these are odds I will take any day of the week if it increases the chances that my baby will be with me tomorrow. Your rationalization of predestination does not make sense - while there are certainly things in this world that are beyond our control, there are plenty of things in this world which we do have some control over. It's one of the many reasons we do use carseats for our babies - it's not a guarantee to ward off harm in an accident, but it does incredibly reduce the risk of our babies being injured - just like putting babies to sleep on their backs greatly reduces the risk of them succumbing to SIDS. I remember all too well how exhausting those first few months are after having a baby and I sincerely wish for you several blessed hours of sleep soon - nothing is more satisfying than when you realize you have slept 4 consecutive hours without a peep! Best of luck to you.
-Lauren

stillplayswithbarbies
06-09-2003, 09:06 AM
I understand the concept of predestination. But that does not mean that I am going to let my child go play in traffic.

40% reduction in SIDS since the "back to sleep" campaign has begun. That is pretty significant. As much as I believe in instincts and each family doing what works for them, I can't ignore the truth of this one.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel 2/27/91
Logan Elizabeth 3/25/03

flagger
06-09-2003, 09:43 AM
Said by the SIDS Alliance (press section):

Since the Back To Sleep campaign was first announced in 1992, the SIDS rate in the U.S. has decreased by a total of 42%, the equivalent of sparing the lives of more than 2,000 babies each year.

Despite this progress, SIDS remains the number one cause of death for infants from one month to one year of age. Recent studies have shown the risk of SIDS to be double for African-American infants and two and one-half times greater for Native Americans. A disproportionate one-fifth of all SIDS deaths occur in day care.

Medical developments have become big news, with international wire services and world wide web sources providing a steady stream of story ideas and abstracts. Unfortunately, in the world of wires and webs, there is no mechanism in place for ensuring truth and accuracy, nor quality control.

You don't hear anyone suggesting they shut down day care do you?

Apparently there isn't a mechanism of quality control on their own website as if you follow the tab at the top to Reducing the Risks of SIDS, you see this:

Since 1992, when the Back To Sleep advisory was first announced, the rate of SIDS has dropped more than 50%, the equivalent of sparing the lives of 3,000 infants every year in the U.S.

Two contradictory sets of figures put forth as "FACT" by the SIDS Alliance. Sorry folks, we are going to do what works best for our daughter and for us as a family. There are quite a few styles of parenting/ child care (not this issue) that others on this board practice that we disagree with, and we can live with the fact that we are doing the absolute best for our family as a whole.

We wish you well. It is nice to know that there are others besides myself who do sleep their babies on their tummy.

emilyf
06-09-2003, 10:25 AM
I am somewhat reluctant to respond to this post, but I will tell you that Charlie has slept on his tummy almost since the beginning. I tried every trick in the book and began to feel like a medieval torturor with a specialty in sleep deprivation. I would gently turn him on to his back after he had fallen asleep on his tummy, or put him in his crib sound asleep and sure enough 5,10, 15 minutes later he was screaming. He is a stubborn boy like his dad and nothing worked. It got to the point that I was concerned that his lack of sleep was going to negatively impact his health. This had nothing to do with my lack of sleep, in fact once we did start allowing him to sleep on his belly I was popping out of bed to check on him constantly and roaming the house at all hours worried about this. I bought a motion monitor which helped, but Charlie started sleeping through the night way before I did. He is a champ sleeper now, and I have lightened up a bit now that we have passed the 6 month mark. I know of other people with similar experiences- my sil has 3 boys and the middle one refused to sleep on his back while the other 2 had no problem with it. Most parents are lucky enough to not have this problem, and some have found ways around it, but adequate sleep is important to a newborn, and I think people who haven't dealt with this forget to factor that in. But I'm not sure it is really a debatable issue, babies are safer on their backs no question. I agree with what Rachel said, the people who are giving you a hard time about this are only looking out for Cocoa, but you are the parents, and ultimately all the responsibility is yours. It sounds like you guys are doing a great job, I wish you luck.

alandenisefields
06-09-2003, 10:45 AM
Flagger,

Hey! See you're stirring up the boards again! While we agree with many of the comments of the respondants, we really wanted to offer some constructive advice. Cocoa may sleep better on her back if she is tightly swaddled. We found our kids were better sleepers in the beggining if they were snuggled up nice and tight. Don't know if you're doing this but it might make it a bit easier on you.

best wishes,

denise fields
authors, BABY BARGAINS

MegND95
06-09-2003, 11:55 AM
This worked well for us. In addition to swaddling, I also made sure the baby's head touched the bumper. Just the head, of course. We made sure his nose and mouth were never too close to the bumper. Our ped suggested this, as baby might feel more *connected* while wrapped tightly and not hanging out all loose in the the crib.

Another technique a friend suggested was warming the bed first with a heating pad. My dd loved to sleep near a warm body, so my friend told us to try warming the crib, and then, remove the pad and place baby on the warm spot. Worked well for us.

flagger
06-09-2003, 12:06 PM
Denise,

Thanks for the constructive comments. We have been doing that but she kicks right out of the swaddle. Our nurse even showed us how to do the best tightest Burrito Wrap.

Short of using Duct Tape (now 1002 uses), we are doing the best we can.

lisams
06-09-2003, 12:36 PM
Our DD was a big time kicker, and what we ended up doing was just swaddling around her arms since her arms flying around from startling was what would wake her up every 15 minutes. We found that the key to a good swaddle was to make it really snug and to keep her arms straight down to her side (learned this from "The Happiest Baby On The Block" by Harvey Karp.)

We were also concerned since our baby spit up a lot that she may choke on her back so we rolled up a receiving blanket and put it against her back so that she was laying a little on her side. We would switch sides at each feeding so that she wouldn't get a flat spot on one side of her head.

It's tough in those early weeks! I want to know who made up the saying "Sleeps like a baby" because I don't know any young babies who sleep soundly through the night!!

I know it's frustrating hearing the Back To Sleep campaign over and over and it's easy to think they are ganging up on you or trying to make you feel guilty, but really they just want to keep children safe and it takes repeating the word over and over to get it out to all families.

Good Luck!
Lisa

ddmarsh
06-09-2003, 12:45 PM
I had an interesting conversation with my ped recently about the side vs. back issue. When DS #2 was born the campaign had begun but it was primarily geared at keeping babies on their sides and there was a wedge made to keep them on their sides; back was mentioned as an alternative but side was more the focus. I asked him recently about the change from side to back and he said that side was actually the preferred position but it was just too problematic because they found that many people could not do it correctly (I assume they were not actually keeping them on their sides and were falling back onto tummies) and people were using the wedges incorrectly or too long (too long in age) and some babies were getting caught in them. Hence, the move to backs. He said (and this is just one physician's statements) that side would actually probably still the preferred (I am assuming b/c of the whole aspiration issue) but that it is just much easier to get people to lay babies on their backs correctly. I thought this was an interesting observation.

Debbie

josephsmom
06-09-2003, 01:25 PM
I have mixed feelings about this thread and can really empathize with both sides. Although I believe in the back-to-sleep campaign (and *any* idea that saves babies' lives!), and was faithful in trying to enforce it, I had a problem as well. When Joseph was tiny, he always ended up pressing his face against the bumpers. I'd move him away, and sometimes he'd wake up very unhappy. Whether he awakened or not, he'd be right back up against the bumpers very soon. When he graduated from that, it was a blankie over his face. He *still* sleeps against a bumper or with a blankie at least touching his face. I worried about this all the time, but there was little I could do about it. When I tried removing the bumpers, he slept pressed against the cradle slats. I couldn't imagine that that was any better for him, so I replaced the bumpers. When I tried taking away the blankie, he was back at the bumper. This isn't always something we can control, try as we may!

Helene
mommy to Joseph 12/29/01

C99
06-09-2003, 01:32 PM
Flagger,

Read "The Happiest Baby on the Block" -- it has some great tips for getting a tight swaddle (and references a parent who did use duct tape to keep it closed!).

nofeea
06-09-2003, 03:03 PM
I too had a baby Houdini...
"Happiest Baby on the Block" tips helped sometimes, but then I switched to using the Kiddopotumus SwaddleMe. Velcro seemed a bit more practical than duct tape!! I highly recommend the SwaddleMe- here's a link: http://www.mommyshop.com/swadadinwrap.html
My DD seemed pretty snug in her swaddle wrap placed on her back or side in a sleep positioner. (OK- so maybe she didn't sleep too many hours in a row, but at least during those in-between hours I worried a little less!) I think it's hard to think clearly in those first few weeks when you're totally sleep deprived and it may take some time and trial-and-error to make any long-standing decisions. (NOT that I'm accusing anyone of 'not thinking'- just sharing my own muddled state during those first sleepless weeks!!)

Melanie
06-09-2003, 03:11 PM
I understand your frustration, as a parent who moves outside the mainstream I get stuff all the time from people. I just try to remember that THEY are just trying to think of our child's wellbeing. Honestly, when I see/hear/read someone doing something that I think is really endangering to their child's health, I feel like I do need to educate them to their options so they can make an informed decision otherwise if something terrible happened, I would just feel awful knowing that I may have helped prevent it. I am sure that is what these people are doing for your family. It looks like you have done your research and made your decision based upon that, so it's time to vent online, then knod & smile. Or the "Oh really. I'll have to think about that. Thank You." technique.

I have a friend who's mother is a 'nurse' and therefore the EXPERT on every child-rearing subject imagineable (according to my friend). They do not have any bumpers or sleep positioners in their crib b/c they can contribute to SIDS. I was there the other day, and guess what? Their baby naps on her stomach so she won't get a flat head. They put her in the pack in play wherever they are and constantly check on her. After having taken infant CPR, my thoughts were: If she stops breathing for just a couple of minutes and you check on her every 10 - it is pointless, but it makes them feel better.

My son never slept on his back. The positioner did not help, he kicked out of the swaddle. He spent months 2-5 sleeping peacefully in an infant seat or swing.

Now here's for my "THEY" information.... While you're researching SIDS...you might want to check out how many babies die from SIDS immediately following multiple vaccinations, regardless of sleeping position.

Sharon
06-09-2003, 09:09 PM
my DS refused to sleep on his back and would be up every 2 hours until I tried putting him in his carseat to sleep. It worked like a charm. Another benefit of the carseat is that DS can suck on his blanket and won't pull it over his face.

LisaS
06-10-2003, 03:43 AM
We called our DD the statue of liberty when she slept b/c she always managed to get 1 arm out of the swaddle, no matter how tightly we wrapped her. So, we eventually, just left 1 arm out and 1 arm in and she slept very well that way. She also did sleep well on her side but we didn't have a wedge at first, so we used a rolled up receiving blanket we put it in back of her, from her armpit down (far away from her head) and found this very helpful. I liked it better than the sleep positioner.

She eventually managed to get arm #2 out of the swaddle and once she did, she always ended up on her back, as if she was lying on the beach - hands above her head, arms angled as if she was going to rest her head on her hands. We marvelled at how she was able to do that every night.

At the end of the day, there's only so much you can do to enforce the swaddle. We gave in and left both arms free - and she managed to sleep fine that way.

smomom
06-10-2003, 08:37 AM
Gee, Flagger, you have everyone so stirred up. I, too, wrestled with the tummy/back issue.

I am sure you have tried all kinds of suggestions, but here's some more to rule out - In the early weeks we found that DS would sleep on his back if we rolled blankets and placed them next to him so that they took up all of the space between him and the cradle. His major issue with the back position seemed to be related most to the fact that on his back he could move side-to-side and that little bit of movement really freaked him out. By placing the rolled blankets around him he stayed more confined. We also kept a heating pad in his bassinet and removed it just before putting him down. Sometimes the shock of the cold sheets woke up. On top of all of that he was most often swaddled - again, to confine his flailing limbs.

That being said, after a few weeks we put him down for naps on his tummy. Like you, I was not convinced that tummy sleeping was the *sole* cause of SIDS. Until he started rolling over on his own he was in the routine of tummy-sleeping for naps and on his back for the night.

I have read too many of your posts to believe that you would do anything to put your baby at harm's risk. As Dr. Spock said, "trust yourself - you know more than you think you do." You seemed to have not faced this issue without research and you're definitely entitled to form your own opinions based on the data out there and your own parental instincts.

Good luck to you!

Calmegja
06-10-2003, 06:58 PM
I completely respect your right as a parent to do what you feel is best for your situation, but the best literature out there does not support your contention. I second the suggestion to swaddle, and if that doesn't work, to find a way to make the swaddle more secure, or to find another path to comfortably keep her in a recognized safer position. If in the end you decide to maintain the tummy position, you should expect, if you bring it up publicly, that there will be concern addressed for your daughter, as you are doing something that contradicts current recommendations. Nobody is demonizing you, just offering help.

If you truly feel "if her number gets punched and it is her time to go there isn't really a damn thing we can do about it"..... I don't know what to say. As a parent who has lost a child, I'll just echo what others have said on here, it isn't a position that you would ever want to put yourself in. It's one thing to make the parental decision that you have regarding her sleeping position. I respect that, although I don't agree with it. It's quite another to negate that ability to make a choice with "it doesn't matter, anyway"....

I just think the basis you're using here, if you truly believe in predestination, is faulty. Following that, I would assume you also don't use carseats, your wife avoided prenatal care, and in general, there's no need for safety precautions, since what you do will have no affect on the future outcome, since it's all predetermined anyways. With that, why does it matter what you do, if it will all unfold anyway? I mean this not as a criticism of your religion, but rather of your application of it in this situation.

I have read many of your previous posts, that I know that is not your attitude towards your much loved, and long anticipated daughter. Be frustrated if you want with people who do not agree with the choices you have made, but try and step back and see where they might be coming from. You do open yourself up for that when you do something that for so many of us, sends up a red flag. For those of us who have lost a child, we'd pretty much jump through fire to prevent another person from feeling that way, whether the risk reduction is 40% or .04%.

flagger
06-13-2003, 11:32 AM
We do appreciate everyone's opinion on this. We however have looked at all the evidence and the facts and the misinformation and have come to our own conclusion about what is best for our daughter. Quite plain and simply she sleeps for longer periods of time on her stomach. We feel that her deep restful sleep is important to her as a newborn.

We do not feel that we are putting our baby at risk by any stretch of the imagination. The evidence only points to a reduction of incidents not that sleeping on the tummy is the cause. We are going with our gut on this one.

Piglet
06-13-2003, 01:13 PM
I thought about this decision long and hard, and have come to one big conclusion:

We have a kid that only slept on his tummy (he was very colicky and I know that when I have any stomach discomfort, I can't sleep on my back either).

Just about every friend of ours has tried to adhere to the Back to Sleep Campaign, and about 90% of them have quietly admitted in close company that they just can't do it - their baby doesn't sleep on their back.

*** SO ***

When we read about the statistics of decreased SIDS in babies that sleep on their backs, how do we know where these stats come from? No one seems to be admitting that they are putting babies to sleep on their tummies. Definitely not admitting it to their doctors, or nurses; hardly admitting it to their friends!

Further, there may be a decrease in SIDS due to it being in the forefront - it is a cause that people are passionate about. People are at least thinking of their parenting choices more and more. There is a correlation between increased SIDS in uneducated, younger, lower class families. Could it be that people are being taught to think about their babies more and more, and not putting them on their backs just re-inforces this education?

I agree with Flagger on one issue more than any other - don't assume that we haven't given this decision much thought, just because you see a picture of a beautiful baby sleeping on his/her tummy. We all love our children, why else would we be members of this board? We all want to take care of them, but no one wants non-requested parenting advice, be it on their diapering, feeding, strollering, you name it!

Marina

lvp49
06-13-2003, 02:47 PM
I have resisted replying to this inflammatory post so as not to add fuel to the fire. I suspect that flagger got exactly the response he was looking for regarding his SIDS post which, IMO, was very insensitive to the parents who might read it and have lost a child to SIDS, no matter what position they were sleeping in, outrage and strong opinions on each side.

My point is this: one can not post the details of their life on a web site, invite people to look at it, friends, family and strangers alike, and not expect to get all sorts of responses, including advice, praise, and condemnation. Flagger opened this door, and while he didn't say "hey, what do you think of my infant sleeping on her tummy?" He POSTED IT in a photo!! What did he expect, only "oh you have such a beautiful baby?"

I , for one am a VERY private person, and do not understand why anyone would make such private moments and decisions public, post pictures of their lives on the internet, and invite strangers to share them. But that's just me.

edited to add : I'm sorry to bring this topic back to the top of the list, I was glad to see it sinking

flagger
06-13-2003, 03:03 PM
All I can say is no one knows whether or not Ms. Flagger and I have lost a child. Our way of dealing with the cycle of life is probably different than most people. We all have our varied opinion on a variety of subjects. I said it before, what I posted was meant to vent and to bitch. That is the sole reason for this forum.

And we respect that some are very private people. We share exactly what information we want people to see or view about our life. Many people on here have links to their websites or shutterfly albums of their dear children. To us, this is no different that parents of old handing out cigars to everyone they met when their child was born. We are excited about this new journey and want to shout it from the mountaintops. We certainly don't force anyone to click a link.

Also the only reason we posted the pictures is we find nothing cuter and more at peace than a picture of a baby, any baby, with its cute little butt in the air.

liya
06-13-2003, 10:16 PM
WTF...this has gotten way way outta hand..I totally support the fact that you just wanted to vent flagger it was all within your right and although ppl may judge you by your opinion it is your opinion and should be respected...By gosh it is your baby and in my state of mind no one knows whats best for their babies but their parents...

As for some ppl priviledging their private lives..We do participate in a forum where we share what we want to share and thats it nothing more nothing less.//We also participate in a forum where we celebrate our little miracles in life.Im sorry for some ppl who cannot understand that many ppl look for comfort, support and advice here and although we are surrounded by what you might call total strangers some of these strangers have trusted us also with their questions, opinions etc...

So IMHO just leave it at that.....