On the topic of BFing vs. Formula...

[toomanystrollers]

An interesting article appeared not to long ago in the Boston Globe "Sure breast is best, but is it worth it?": http://tinyurl.com/24wug

My kids are/were breastfed and have had formula as well. For me, bf'ing was just so easy. I was a formula fed baby and knock on wood, I've been very healthy for over 34 years :)

The research out there can be used either way to support one's position.

Lets all agree to disagree without scaring the bejesus out of anyone. First time parenting is scary enough :)

{{{{{GROUP HUG}}}}}

[sntm]

I don't really want to get in the middle of this, but had to respond because i actually contacted the author of that article about the way he interpreted/presented the research, which was faulty. I was able to find several errors in 30 minutes spent on Medline, and this is not even in my specialty.

Again, I'm not getting in to this, but just didn't want this one article to mislead people into thinking the research was that equivocal. It's not.

Not a bash -- I swear on the life of my child. Please don't flame me!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03

[toomanystrollers]

Shannon,
I wouldn't flame you :) Can you point out his errors - I would definitely like to know.

Goes to show you can't always believe what you read on either position.

I'm just worried for the pregnant moms out there on the board or the moms struggling with breastfeeding who may now feel that formula feeding is an irresponsible choice or makes you a lesser parent.

[starrynight]

His first paragraph was about maybe it was the epi his wife got. Well I know plenty of people who had the epi who didn't have the problems I did without the epi...
And I won't get into immunity to much, for some kids no matter how they are fed they are always sick and other kids seem to rarely get ill. It's genetics more than anything IMO.
I don't read the globe often anymore since I no longer live up that way but they aren't exactly top notch crediable so I hope not to many thinking of bfing moms get scared off from at least trying. I felt a ton of guilt over not trying hard enough or for giving up.

But in the end all that matters is if your child is fed everyday right? :) Thanks for the link, I need something to read these days ;).

[pamela mom of 3]

I agree with the statement "The research out there can be used either way to support one's position."

That's why i feel it's important we don't toss about all the studies...you could honestly go dizzy trying to find the TRUE answers with any of them ;)

What is most important is that you do what you feel is right, and that nobody is made to feel less of a parent for choosing either route.

Nothing in parenting is 100%, no sure-bets..you just hope for the best it all turns out ok in the end ;) oh and all your hair hasn't turned grey or just plain fallen out lol :D


~Pamela Mom Of 3

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/kao/otn/blobflower.gif

[sntm]

I can't remember the other examples right now, but here are two that I cited in my discussion with him:

"For example, the Lancet study in 2002 (at least skimming it) failed to take into account that families with histories of allergies/asthma may be more likely to breastfeed, knowing that it reduces the risks. The review article in Pediatrics which identified only two high-quality studies did not "reach...opposing conclusions." One failed to reject the null hypothesis, which is not the same thing."

I think you can believe things that you read -- but unfortunately not everyone has the knowledge/skills to understand the studies and some people (like Dr. Sanghavi who had good intentions and also was burdened with some personal baggage) can present things in such a way that they seem to say things that they do not.

None of the studies will be perfect -- you can't do a randomized controlled trial where you make one person BF and one person FF. And the ideal study would be one identical twin BF and one FF (that will never happen!). But good statistics really will take into account as many confounders (other variables that may affect outcome, like socioeconomic status) as possible in doing the mathematical analysis and then discuss the biases (things that may affect the way the data is collected, like people's memory of how things happened) and how they might affect the outcome.

The majority of the studies support that breastfeeding is better for mom and baby. That is truth. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT FORMULA FEEDING IS BAD! These are generalized statements, so ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL breastfeeding is better than formula feeding. Of course, all things are not equal (the point that Karen was trying to make) so there are certainly cases where BFing may be the lesser choice. That does not mean that the risks go away -- just that in certain situations, the risk/benefit analysis may come up differently. Educated moms should know both the risks and benefits of every option and consider them before choosing. If you make the right choice for you, you should be able to see the risks and benefits and say "yup, that's the way things are and the choice was right."

This kind of stuff is important to me, because evidence-based medicine (using good statistical analysis) has changed the way we practice and has improved people's health, quality of life, and survival. I'm busting my butt right now taking additional grad school classes to learn how to do this better, because it is so important. So, it really bums me when statistical analyses are misinterpreted/misrepresented/misunderstood/ignored. With regards to BF/FF, it happens frequently. If you want, you can decide that the information it provided does not change your way of thinking. We all play the lottery differently based on our own values. We all make choices that require some sacrifices. Some are just more emotionally charged than others.

And again, to anyone reading, I promise, as a former FF-baby with several friends that FF, that I am not formula bashing in any way.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03

edited to correct my html

[sntm]

>I agree with the statement "The research out there can be
>used either way to support one's position."
>
>That's why i feel it's important we don't toss about all the
>studies...you could honestly go dizzy trying to find the TRUE
>answers with any of them ;)

The difference is if the studies are interpreted correctly. If not for all these studies, we might as well throw modern medicine out the window!

Though I still frequently go dizzy (or ditzy) looking at them...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03

[anutalp]

Thanks a lot for that link.
I'm going to be a first time mom, hopefully next week.
I do plan to breastfed, at least I'm going to try.
Personally, I don't like that everywhere (in that forum, in all books) formula feeding is presented as some sort of a failure. Of course, everyone should try, but if it's not working out, I don't think that women should feel depressed or guilty. The physician in that article is right. We don't need going from one extremity to another: 20-30 years ago women were fighting for their right not to breastfeed, formula was in fashion. Now the fashion is to breastfed. Come on, everyone should choose her own way. I'll sure try to BF but I'm not going to suffer.
Thanks again,
Ana.

[votre_ami03]

Ana, Congrat's & best wishes with your baby! Hope he/she arrives quickly & all goes smooth!

You are dead on. I know a woman in her 60's, when she wanted to BF her DD 30 years ago, her male Dr said, "What do you think you have to prove that you are a woman?" *lmbo!*

Christy, mommy to Nolan 7/22/03

[farsk]

Hello Everyone!

Because this is a topic that I feel great passion for, I have to interject my two cents. Feel free to flame away!

In my personal experience, I have seen too many friends and acquaintances abandon breastfeeding at the first sign of trouble, but these same friends will switch from formula to formula to find the one that does not irritate their baby's gut. They are determined to find a formula that works, and if they spent that energy into ensuring breastfeeding success, all would be happier, and dare I say, healthier (I think the stats back me up here).

We, the public, have been misled for far too long by companies that seek to profit off of our lack of confidence, lack of support, and lack of knowledge all the while offering an inferior and costly product. These same companies have no vested interest in seeing that the public is educated, because after all, would you really want something 4th best for your child?

The bottom line is, with regard to this issue, that one person can not make another person feel guilty about her choice without her consent. You may have noticed that decisions you have made after thoroughly researching the facts are points that virtually no one can make you feel guilty about.

Is it worth it? Absolutely. Human existence has depended on it.

[lisams]

Yes and it is the same formula industry that was trying to delay and dilute the National Ad Campaign for breastfeeding awareness. Heaven forbid more women be educated about the benefits of BFing. Personally I think it's about time breastfeeding had it's spotlight in the general public.

Lisa

[houseof3boys]

Flame away for this but I have been thinking of it since Pam's post yesterday....

What a bunch of crap. I cannot believe that some ignorant idiot has twisted this to serve him with publicity and the formula companies. Breastfeeding is the "better" choice period.

Not formula bashing just being honest!!!!

[Imperia]

I read a really wonderful statement in a book recently...

"Breast feeding isn't better...it's just natural."

and to me that is SO true. In the past we didn't really have much of a choice on how to feed our children. Don't get me wrong, I think for the people who really need it formula is fine, however, what women (and their babies!) really need is SUPPORT on how to properly breast feed. So many women think they don't have enough milk, or have latching problems etc etc. It's not always easy at first (they find even other primates who haven't been raised around other nursing pairs have a hard time learning), and I am sure when you are sleep deproved etc it's easier just to pick up a bottle, but for me I really wanted to give my daughter this gift and I was committed (we have been breastfeeding for almost a month now). While we were in the hospital, it became evident that my DD was suffering from pathological jaundice due to our blood type incompatibilty. She was very ill, and very lethargic. They told me I would have to give her formula at least until my milk came in because the colostrum wouldn't give her enough fluid intake. They asked me how I wanted to deliever the formula and even though a bottle would have been easier I opted for a SNS (special tube set up which allows the baby to suck at the breast to get supplemental fluids instead of a bottle). This was a lot of work; it was frustrating (I was covered in formula ewwwwww), but my DH sat at my side every feeding and helped position the tube, while I got her latched onto the breast. I fully believe his support helped us succeed! A few days later, after my milk came in I stopped using the SNS, and now she gets only Breast Milk. I know some people would have given up, but I REALLY wanted to do this.
And to be honest, now that we been BFing for almost a month, it seems pretty easy to me. If more women had all the facts and more importantly the SUPPORT they needed to keep going, I believe more babies would be breastfed longer.

Imperia

[Melanie]

Imperia I couldn't agree with you more on how vital good support is. Our story is similiar to yours.

It is just wonderful that your hospital was able to provide an SNS. I don't think ours even would have known what one was. I think it is your determination and your supportive husband that helped you succeed. Can you imagine how hard it must be for those who don't know the facts and do not have support?

I would have NEVER succeeded at breastfeeding if I was not determined from all my research and did not have a husband willing to sit with me and help every time as well (and willing to shell out a couple hundred dollars for an LC). I was truly Blessed. I would have never thought that my husband losing his job just before Ds was born would be a blessing, but it sure turned out to be. I'm sure hoping it's easier next baby...or Dh better start saving up his vacation time now!

We also had the pathological jaundice, I'd never heard of it before Ds. I am going to assume our next will have it as well so I am even more determined to get them on and latched immediately.

So...I'm done rambling. LOL

[ddmarsh]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I feel really uncomfortable on behalf of the FF moms (I happen to have BF) with the turn that threads on this subject seem to take. I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact that breastfeeding is best and that there are societal problems with its promotion. I am quite certain though that the FF mothers are fully aware of all of this - they do not need anyone here "educating" them. I think it's wonderful that a BF mom and find support here when struggling. However, I find that a far cry from the repeated listing of the detriments of FF and the evil formula companies.

The choice on how to feed your child is just one aspect of parenting. I'm sure there are some BF who may have made the alternate choice in any number of other areas and no one is confronting you with a list of all the awful consequences of those choices. Parenting is an enoormous task and it can be a constant struggle to feel that you are doing the best that you can, I don't think any of us need to have anyone else judging our choices or pointing out all of the things that we've done in less than the ideal way.

Thanks -

[KMommie]

Debbie,

Thank you for "going out on a limb". I don't know what has possessed me to continue to read these current bf-ff threads... must be the masochist in me. But, if I hadn't, I wouldn't have read your post, which made me feel much better!

Jeannie
mommy to Kiki 4/18/03

[Melanie]

"I am quite certain though that the FF mothers are fully aware of all of this - they do not need anyone here "educating" them. "

I think you are absolutely right. However, what about the mothers-to-be who are posting or just lurking and no one has ever talked to them about breastfeeding?

How about the pregnant woman who tells the pediatrician that she's interviewing they plan to exclusively breastfeed and he tries to give her the diaper bag of formula on the way out? (yep, that was me and no we didn't select him).

I'm sorry that this topic seems to cause such a rift, but honestly, it is not about trying to make someone second-guess their past choices.

And yes, I've had people come down on me here for other choices that we've made...so I do understand how it feels and how hard it is to fight that little chip of your confidence that wants to fall off.

[ddmarsh]

"However, what about the mothers-to-be who are posting or just lurking and no one has ever talked to them about breastfeeding?"

I believe that there are other ways to encourage and support BFer's or potential BFer's without complete attacking formula feeding and I honestly think that most people are perfectly capable of doing so if they simply stop and consider the feelings of the audience as a whole.

[KMommie]

I completely understand what you're saying. These boards have been a great source of information for me. Kiki and I have been helped immensely by so many moms here! You know that!! :)

For me, it's just hard, since whenever a post comes up maybe to educate moms-to-be, like SIDS (tummy sleeping), breastfeeding (choosing to formula feed), even immunizations (delay or not to delay), to name a few----those that go against the "accepted, better" route may chime in with their experiences, and get shouted down (it only feels that way TO ME because so many will chime in to emphasize the opposing view.) I know that bf-ing advocates aren't trying to make me feel bad. But, that didn't stop me from bursting into tears when my own SIL (a bf-ing machine :) for my 3 nephews) said to me, "I love Kiki's chubby cheeks! She looks just like a breastfed baby, she's so happy!"

Just my 2 cents...like I said, I really should know better than to read topics that remind me of those "chips of confidence" that have fallen off and are threatening to take more with them!


Jeannie
mommy to Kiki 4/18/03

[anutalp]

I loved the "a bf-ing machine" part :)
I completely agree with you.
I hate all kind of agitation - to BB or to FF. Don't underestimate pregnant women - there are very intelligent and know how to get all the information they need in order to make the right decision (to BB or to FF). As I said, my due is 02/23, hopefully next week. I'm going to try BB, but I'm not going to "kill" myself for that. If it will not go (according to my personal determination of "not going"), if it will demand from me to suffer, to feel guilty, to feel desperate I will not even hesitate for a second to give my son a bottle (with a pumped milk, hopefully I'll at least have it) and if not - FF.
Ana.

[sntm]

>For me, it's just hard, since whenever a post comes up maybe
>to educate moms-to-be, like SIDS (tummy sleeping),
>breastfeeding (choosing to formula feed), even immunizations
>(delay or not to delay), to name a few----those that go
>against the "accepted, better" route may chime in with their
>experiences, and get shouted down

I guess I've always felt the opposite. I really appreciate all of these discussions because they bring up lots of different points of view and lots of good information, even when I am the exception.

As an example, I still read all of the posts about buying a airplane seat for your child. I know it is a higher risk to go without one, but I've done a "risk/benefit analysis" for my family and decided not to buy one. I appreciate the discussions, though, because I may learn something else that may influence my decision. Decisions regarding BF/FFing may be already "made" for one child, but not for future children and not for moms-to-be.

I hate that it makes people feel bad, but I'd hate it even worse if we couldn't talk about those sorts of things, because then we would all lose out. Information is neutral -- we determine how we feel about it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03

[mandye]

This is a hard topic for me to respond to because I always thought I would breastfeed. There was no doubt in my mind. And yet, when the time came, circumstances didn't allow it. I cried for weeks (literally) because I thought I was such a failure as a mom and woman in general. Even now, six months later, I still feel like a failure because of it. Sometimes I actually think if I had just tried harder or longer it would have worked. In my case this just isn't true and I had to think of the health of my daughter. I honestly believe I felt like this because of the "Breast = good; formula = bad" education that goes on. I do agree that breastfeeding is best (BTW every can of formula I have ever bought also states this)and I will always try to breastfeed all of my children. However, like someone else on this thread said, formula feeding does not mean bad.

mandy

[hellokitty1]

Since the other topic is locked out but the same type of discussion is picking up here, I just wanted to say this one thing...

PULEEEEEZE, do not even try to analogize formula feeding to smoking. I don't recall who posted but that really burned me up!

Vivian
Mom to Sydney
BF'ed til 8 mos and FF now and baby is living to tell about it!!!!

[farsk]

Vivian,

I understand what you are saying, and without having read the particular post to which you refer, I feel fairly confident that the poster was equating the marketing techniques of the tobacco industry to the marketing techniques of the infant formula industry. In that way, they are virtually the same. Obviously, formula feeding and smoking are not.

[Imperia]

Gosh,

what a wonderful story! I am glad you have a supportive DH as well; makes such a hige difference doesn't it?

As far as I know about the jaundice it may or may not occur with the next pregnancy for me (if I am so lucky as to have another) It depends on what the baby's blood type is (in this case mine is O and hers was A) and whether or not my antibodies cross over the placenta into her blood stream. Supposedly, it's a fairly rare type of jaundice, so I hope it doesn't happen again; I was crying a lot in the hospital since we had to be separated while she was under the lights, and I missed her so much. She is happy and healthy now though!

Imperia

[Imperia]

I, for one, did not intend (if that is how it came across it wasn't my intention) to make other mothers feel badly about their choices whatever those may be. And you are completely correct that in many cases FFing is a choice. I think the reason it riles up so many people is it involves the health and safety of another human being. I remember a thread awhile back on someone who had fed a food to their baby which most people consider to be a choking hazard--that also heralded quite a response. Yes, of course it was this parent's right to do so, but people were concerned about the infant's safety. I know some people would dispute that BFing vs FFing is a "health and safety issue", however, so much research suggests this to be the case(ie BF children are healthier, reduced SIDS risk etc). I also believe that many people find the marketing practices of formula companies to be questionable and sometiems down right despicable (Nestle anyone???) As for all mothers knowing breastfeeding is best; I don't know if that is always the case. If no one talks about the risks and benefits of BOTH feeding philosophies how will anyone learn?
I didn't know all of these things until I talked with some people and read some information. Of course, each mother has to decide for herself, but I don't see how giving information (in a polite and respectful manner) hurts anyone.

Of course FFing isn't "the devil", but I do believe that most people would like to do what is best for their children if that is humanly possible for them, not just what is easier or the bare minimum for what it takes for their child to thrive. Everyone here cares about their children I am certain. Does it mean you don't love your child if you FF? NO, of course not! But it will always be a hot topic, and if you start a thread on it, or chime in on ths topic (on either side!) I think you should expect some strong opinions either way. Maybe it's the parent version of discussing religion and politics????

Imperia

[amp]

Debbie - Well said. Thank you!

[amp]

Mandy - Please, stop beating yourself up!

This is exactly why we need to be supportive of one another, regardless of the form in which we feed (BM or FF) or babies. Laying this guilt at the feet of mothers who have tried to BF and cannot is not acceptable!

From another mommy who has also been there....Mandy, you are a good mother and FF does not detract from this *IN THE LEAST*!! Please give yourself a break and enjoy motherhood!

[lizajane]

please let's don't start another fight!! please please please!! i haven't recovered from being the one to start the last fight!! please please let's all read the original post here that says, "let's all agree to disagree without scaring the bejesus out of anyone."

the company that made those scary ads that the formula companies are trying to keep off the air is MY OLD COMPANY. i worked there. i participated in the focus groups held before they put together the ad. i support that agency wholeheartedly (is that a word?) but i still think the ads were a little over the top scary. (but way more scary is the censorship, imho.)

it just isn't fair to scare someone into breastfeeding. WHEN is it ever fun to do something because you are TERRIFIED not to? NEVER! NEVER FUN!

as a breastfeeder, a HUGE breastfeeding advocate, and someone who feels sad (and SO guilty for feeling sad) when my friends give up breastfeeding without really giving it their best shot, i STILL think it is SO important to mind your own beeswax when it comes to parenting. if someone is riding around in the car with their baby out of a carseat, ok. maybe point out that a carseat is the safe way to transport your baby. but PUUUUUUUULEASE do NOT point out to a FFing mom that "breast is best." LEAVE HER ALONE! she has made up her mind!!

but mostly, please please please don't fight anymore!!!

[hellokitty1]

Shannon-

I understand what you're saying too but I still think saying it is like tobacco companies trying to give you free cigarettes which clearly can kill is still an inappropriate analogy.

Any time something "free" is given out it's a "marketing ploy" so let's not call out smoking as a comparison. This is already a touchy subject.

And on a larger note (not directed toward Shannon), I can certainly understand how ff vs. bf always raises stink around here bc no other topic gets as much controversy, for example, organic vs. not, CD vs. disposables, fast food vs. fresh food. etc. And just so I can go on record for this, the statements about the 1% of the population that can justifiably ff is a crock of #$%#$%#$!

[JElaineB]

Mandy,

I have to to totally agree with Andrea. You are not a failure because you could not breastfeed. There are plenty of moms here who really understand how you feel. I am one of them and I totally understand where you are coming from. I had the same mindset and the same tears when my son was born and I was unable to feed him the way I wanted. You did the best for your daughter by loving her and being there for her and taking care of her. If want to talk more about it, feel free to PM or email me.

Jennifer
mom to Jacob 9/27/02

[Melanie]

We are O & B. Since Ds looks like DH to a T and I pretty much just incubated, I'm guessing #2 might be similiar. Just going by family apearances I would say his genes are quite a lot more dominant than mine. ;) We were lucky to avoid the bili lights by 2 points and prob. just a day. My milk came in around day 4 when Ds was at 18 and our ped did lights at 20.

[khakismom]

If baby #1 had the bili lights because of blood type incompatibility, the problem (incompatibility) normally is rectified by #2. So #2 most likely wouldn't need them. (I was under the bili lights because of my parents AB/O incompatibility. But when my brother was born 22 months later, no jaundice, no lights needed. The incompatibility had worked itself out.)

[JenCA]

Mandy, I can certainly relate. I was determined to bf. I took classes before DD was born, and after she was born, I worked my @$$ off to make bfing word. I spend hundreds of dollars on LCs, I used a sns, I pumped like a mad woman. I struggled and sobbed and prayed. Bfing just never got easier for me and DD. Nearly every feeding ended with both me and DD in tears. Finally, when DD was three months old, I threw in the towel for good and started exclusively ffing. I can't even express how guilty and sad I felt (and still do feel). Today I had to take DD to the pediatrician because she has been ill--turns out, she has an ear infection (her first one ever). I kid you not--I cried all the way home, beating myself up yet AGAIN for not sticking with bfing. But I just have to remind myself that I am a damn good mommy, regardless of how I feed my daughter. And my kid is SO happy, so chubby, thriving and growing like a weed(90th percentile for height and 75th for weight). I am well aware that bfing is the best possible choice--but I am doing what I feel is best for my child and myself. And, frankly, my sanity is just as important as DD's health. If I bf but I'm miserable and frustrated, what good is that doing my daughter?!

And as for formula companies being "evil"---I'd like to kindly disagree, because one of those "evil" companies is providing sustenance for my daughter. :)

[MartiesMom2B]

Thanks Liza! Couldn't have said it better.

Sonia
Proud Mommy to Martie 4/6/03

[JMarie]

Thank you, Liza, and thank you to everyone else who has had the courage to speak for mothers who have made a choice that others just cannot accept.

Jennifer
Mom to Aidan Christopher
01/28/03

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

Debbie,
I wanted to thank you for speaking exactly how I feel here...

EDITED TO SAY THIS IS TO THE REST OF OUR COMMUNITY...
Please read noting I am typing this as calm as possible, and with a sister tone...
But after giving this much thought I really want to add that this community (and gosh how I have learned how things can totally be changed around so please no one dare to mix my words)...

In my almost two years on these boards I have never ever seen a "debate" over BF vs FF never once. I have never once seen anyone try to encourage someone to FF never once. I can say that when a BF mom in our community said "do you think it OK to have a picutre of me BF my child in my home" I think I was the first to respond YES YES YES...one of the most beautiful pictures I have ever seen is a picture of a baby nursing from my friend, his mommy. When a member of our boards was told to stop BF at a museum I think I was one of the first to respond "that's bogus...say you want to see it in writing...and damn if I lived there I'd pretend I nursed just to prove a point!!!" Infact I was tempted to call the museum for the policy but Shannon shared that she did (I don't know if she shared what it said I missed it if so)(AND LET ME SAY YOU DON'T KNOW ME IF YOU DON'T THINK I'D DO IT)... When a dad on these boards needed immediate answers (for his BF wife) to some questions I went off line to try to get him help from someone who I thought could help him in fear she might miss the post and it needed immediate attention (wife in hospital and staff with formula at bedside kind of attention)...

When a mom (I forgot the name of the new mommy who is having some problems lately and has posted) comes here aching that she might need to supplement I have never said "honey, look at my healthy gorgeous child...no jaundiced, no earaches, 2 colds (actually I think he's had one but will say a runny nose for a day was 2)..." I didn't step in and try to say "if you have to formula feed you'll be OK" because I certainly don't want to influence anyone who is trying their hardest to do this. Any BF mom can come in my home, sit right down in my home and BF right there infront of my family or guest, and wouldn't be expected to go off anywhere...and in all honesty I could care a less if a breast was exposed infront of my hubby to feed a baby. If aguest has a problem with it I'd defend the mommy!!!

BUT WITH ALL OF THAT SAID...THIS COMMUNITY HAS BENEFITED FROM THE SILENCE THAT FF MOMS HAVE HAD...I FOR ONE HAVE THOUGHT THAT FINE...but not only has the community benefited BUT so have the people who are so pro educating our newbies and eachother...you haven't had to fight a hurdle...a debate...or anyone saying "hey new mommy hear why I chose to FF"...I MEAN THAT'S A DAMN GOOD PLACE TO BE IN IF YOU ARE A BF ADVOCATE WHO WANTS TO EDUCATE...AND AGAIN I THINK THAT A WONDERFUL PLACE FOR OUR BOARDS TO BE IN...

BUT when you decide to get ugly...to say mean scarey things and the FF feeders are feeling like they are ready to come out of the closet then you are opening our boards up to debate...and I think you might find that your task at hand will be a lot harder and difficult if you have to contend with anyone giving some favorable reasons for FF...so I think the BF folks who want to be so mean about this actually should look at your "sisterhood" here and actually thank them for supporting you in your endeavors...Because again I say I have NEVER seen a debate about the two before...

If you think it isn't debatable there is a forum evidently on ParentsPlace (I've seen the title under debates) of the two...so one could go there and drum up some "research"or arguements (and even if they don't believe it) if wanting too and atleast cause some confusion in this matter. I personally can't imagine a happy mommy wanting to debate anything...to even purposely step into a forum or discussion to raise others blood pressure just blows my mind...

BUT many of us have kept our mouth shuts when people say "this is the best bonding"...well today I had some AWESOME bonding when I fed my child I was cheek to cheek, eye socket to eye socket looking striaght into eachothers eyes...we could feel eachothers breaths that was some damn good bonding!!!!...I don't want to go on and on on some very precious times and feeling we have shared while eating BUT they ain't bad that's for certain...but do I chime in...NO...could I convince someone that those are just as special...probably...but I have no desire to do that, I hope every single mommy who plans to BF can, will do everything they can to do it...

I don't mention Tristan is FF fed much here...not because I am afraid of what others will say, for I have not hidden it BUT I do not purposely say that here on threads that could definlty benefit from folks knowing or some of my knowledge and I'll be honest why...I feel like I have been a big contributer to these boards, and I for the life of me do not want any mommy, new mommy or struggling BFing mommy to even be influenced by my decision...since I am active here I feel like I might accidently have that influence on some and I don't want that to get in the way of their chosen path. That has helped the community, the BF advocates and I wouldn't change that decision not to have spoken up for anything. I also wouldn't change the decision to FF Tristan for a second...I have never ever regreted the decision, I hope to never say that again here so I don't influence anyone, but felt the need to say it now...Without researching for a second I have several reasons I could give for my choice and have no desire to share those, or to influence anyone BUT A HORNETS NEST IS GETTING STIRRED AMONG THE FF COMMUNITY...and if constantly attacked I think you're going to see a huge difference in our feeding forums, I think a sleeping dog has been happily sleeping...but many of those dogs don't mind staying asleep BUT you keep beating them I don't think their going to sleep much longer...AGAIN I think BF advocates should realize that all of us have been advocates with you, none in two years have fought your advocacy...we've been right there helping our sisterhood and supporting the support...but you want to start kicking us several of us are willing to start educating on our decisions and our community will never be the same...

Hence the "beg" post yesterday...really "life is good here" ...stop kicking the dogs who have totally supported your efforts and think about the community at large...If folks start sharing their succesful FF experinces you might have a lot more obsticles to hop over here...and I so hope that is not the case...I would lije to stand behind, or beside our BF advocates but a very bad taste is in my mouth right now, and this sleeping dog resembles a cartoon dog, sleeping with one very big eye OPEN!!!!!!




Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties

[momathome]

we are ALL trying to do the best we can to make sure our babies are happy and healthy. No one here would knowingly cause harm to their child. AND I do not think FF your child is the equivalent of causing harm. Most of us moms of a generation ago (myself included) were FF and lived to tell the tale. Is breast feeding better? I suppose. Is it the only healthy choice for our children? Absolutely not. No one should be made to feel gulity over such a personal choice. FWIW, I breastfed both of my girls, Liza exclusively until she was 8 months, supplemented til 10 months, and then switched to formula altogether. Kasey was nursed exclusively for 13 months simply because she wouldn't have it any other way. Stubborn girl that she is, I never got her to take a bottle for me, EBM or otherwise. I had a lot of guilt when I switched to formula with Liza and I now look back and laugh at myself. Nobody has to be perfect, just good enough, and I'd say everyone here is "good enough" and then some!
-Lauren
P.S. For those of you who are wondering, my FF dh managed to get a PhD from Harvard, proving it IS possible to conquer the Ivy Leauge with only Similac to back you up!

[Rachels]

Oh, for heaven's sake. I never said otherwise. I never asked anybody to justify a decision, and all the stuff I said about many formula-fed babies being just fine was totally ignored. So was all the stuff I said about formula not automatically equalling bad, or the stuff about assuming everybody has their reasons, which are not mine to judge. Also ignored was what I said about never for a minute begrudging a mom who has tried and had a hard time. As I said, there is woefully inadequate bf support & education in this culture. What I did was cite accurate research in response to a comment about health. I did not attack anyone and I don't appreciate being repeatedly attacked in return (whether or not you use my name). Stop the histrionics, please. If you're comfortable with your decisions, I applaud that. If you're mourning the bf experience you hoped to have, you have my sympathy and understanding. I absolutely get how that can happen, and I certainly don't fault you. We all do the best we can.

But don't give me this crap about what a supportive community we all are when you're busy hurling insults. Not once have I made a personal statement about anyone, and I'm sick of being on the receving end. I did not intend to insult anyone by stating facts, and I'm sorry it happened. But I agree with whoever said that nobody can make you feel guilty without your permission. If you're really comfortable, there's no reason in the world for you to feel bad. Truly.


-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[PJAlama]

I'm very pro BF but I feel the need to defend your friends who "abandon breastfeeding at the first sign of trouble." I don't know what their circumstances were, but I doubt the decision was as easy for them as you appear to believe. I know that it was very difficult for me to keep with BF during the first month, when BF caused intense, prolonged pain in my nipples, despite sessions with 2 different lactation consultants. Women whose BF experiences had been less painful *simply could not understand what I was going through*. And most sources of BF advice just make it harder to imagine continuing to put your nipple in the little barracuda's mouth by going on about "the joy of breastfeeding" (which really grates you when you're experiencing the PAIN of breastfeeding) and worse, by loading breastfeeding down with other baggage, such as feeding on demand or co-sleeping, which don't necessarily have to be part of the package, but which appear to be part of the RELIGION of the BF high priestesses. My cousin sent me a BF advice book that made me cry, because I knew I could never live up to everything that it seemed to demand.

The weird thing was that after about a month, breastfeeding stopped hurting, just like that. Now I actually enjoy it. But I could never have foreseen that at 2-3 weeks, when I felt ASSAULTED by my baby, and felt the frightening sensation that I really, really understood how some moms can come to abuse their babies.

You can't tell someone they have to keep submitting to torture-- and for some moms, that's what breastfeeding feels like. Breast milk is healthier, but if a mom's about to snap, she might be better off buying formula.