I must be feeling confrontational - or I'm just stupid! A post on LLL.

[jesseandgrace]

I posted this exact thing in a response to the statistics post, but I realize that it really is its own post so I am going to cutn and paste it here,. I really am not trying to start something, instead I think that my difficulties with BF DS and the fact that I worked it out even with bad advice might help someone else, but it is also a rant against all the bad information I got!

I wanted to respond to the breast feeding topic not to start an argument, but because I feel so strongly about it. I BF both of my kids, and am still BF DD who is 9 months. I think it is the best thing for me, and for my kids, but I have to agree with Flagger. The LLL turned me off to the point that I almost did not BF DS. I had incredible pain, mastitis, bleeding nipples that were black and blue. I sought out the LLL for support on what to do and was told that if I were BF correctly it would not hurt. That is total BS!!!! For someone like me who is fair with light red hair and fair skin I think it can often be painful (I'm not sure why it is more so for fair skinned people, and I'm sure that is not always the case, but it is what I have discovered). I think if I had been told the truth, that yes it can be very painful but you will adjust (for me it was around 5/6 weeks in) I would have felt better. All I was told was to continue through the excrutiating pain, that it didn't matter that DS was drinking blood from my bleeding nipples. Well, excuse me if I think that is bad advice! I was a wreck for the first month of his life thinking he would not be smart, get sick all the time, etc. I thnk an organization can promote BF but also be realistic about the challenges and drawbacks. Nothing is entirely perfect, including BF. I know it is not all LLL chapters, but I do think if training were provided there could be some consistency so that many people would not have to have such a bad experience. I know it is hard when faced with the money the formula companies put in to their campaigns, but I know that I was lied to about BF by LLL.

I am definitely a BF advocate, but more importantly I think people need to do what is best for themselves and their babies. My cousin was unable to BF and her DD ended up in the hospital because she was malnourished after my cousin kept trying. To this day she gets upset because the BF advocacy groups have made her feel like she is not a good mother. On the flip side, I don't see the formula companies saying that you are a bad mother if you BF. I know this is long, but I just get really worked up about it. I think everyone should try to BF but I don't think we need to judge those who don't.

[Imperia]

I just wanted to agree with you on the idea that breastfeeding NEVER hurts if you are doing it right...Well, it can and DOES hurt some folks even if the latch is correct. I think it's better to say, "Usually pain is caused by incorrect latch, but you may feel tenderness or soreness as you and your baby adjust to breastfeeding."
My DD is a little barracuda and sometimes she even pinches me with her gums, and trust me even though she doesn't have teeth it still hurts! She also loves to try to pull off the breast while she sucking (supposedly sometimes they do this to stimulate a slow letdown) and that also hurts. At first, my letdown would STING (it felt like a burning pain almost) as well. I kow it was let down because I would just hear her cry and the pain would start and then I would start leaking. This went away as we both adjusted. My nipples never bled or cracked, but you know what? They still hurt. Was I put off by this? A little perhaps, but I also knew in the first place it might be this way because my mother told me about it; she BF all three of her children even back in the late 1950's and early 1960's when the doctors tried to tell her she was abusing her babies by BFing! She warned me it might be painful at first but not to give up. The pain to me though is worth while when I see my DD smile while she is Bfing (yeah, the nipple falls out when she does that) or I listen top her happily gulping away. She just looks SO blissful and happy; I love it.

I believe, perhaps, some BFing advocates worry if they tell women there might be some pain involved even if you are doing it correctly that it may turn some women off of BFing forever or that they won't even try it because it might hurt. Just a thought.

Imperia

[missym]

I'm with you, ladies! Gwen had a great latch right from the beginning, but wow did it hurt for the first few weeks. I was lucky in that I never got mastitis or cracking, but my nipples were incredibly sore. It made me feel horrible to have the doctor, nurses, and lactation consultants all telling me if I did it right, it wouldn't hurt. I really considered quitting, but of course I'm glad I stuck with it.

My nipples had been so sore all through my pregnancy that I could barely stand to touch them, and I think that just continued until my hormones settled down. It gradually got better until one day, I realized I wasn't flinching every time she latched on.

It would have made it so much easier to get through that period if someone had just said, "Yes, it's unusual, but sometimes it just hurts even if you're doing everything right."

Missy, mom to Gwen 03/03

[sntm]

I think it's a d***ed if you do, d***ed if you don't. I agree that they probably say those things to avoid scaring people off. But that said, I am a fair-skined, born-redheaded-now-brunette woman and had heard that I may have some pain/tenderness when I first started and I think that may have led me to be overconfident that I was doing it correctly. After my nipples cracked, my son still wasn't latching correctly, my supply started to decrease, and I got two bouts of mastitis, I think maybe I wasn't doing it right at first?!?!?! Either way, I think the most important thing is no one should have to try BFing without personal support, to reassure you if things are going well and to identify problems if things are going badly.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03

[MelissaTC]

I try to stay out of these conversations but today, I felt like posting so bear with me...

I believe that there is a manual that LLL leaders follow. I found at my local meeting, there are a few moms that aren't just pro-bfding but more AP and feel like they are the AP spokespersons. They try to make others feel like they are doing wrong by not birthing at home, not bfding, etc.. It is THESE people that I personally have a problem with, not the women who are respectful of other people's choices but advocate bfding. It only takes one bad apple to ruin the bunch and unfortunately for LLL, there are some members and leaders out there that have given LLL a bad name.

I am in total favor of bfding and nursed my son for 13 months. I was sore the first week and then things went quite smoothly. I was lucky in that we never had any problems latching on, etc.. so you might say our nursing story was rather textbook. But I know that there are many women out there that have trouble, etc.. Our group is quite supportive and even recommends some LCs to people who need them. Perhaps we have a unique situation?

When it comes down to it, I do believe breast is best and I am not going to apologize for that. Having said that, I would *NEVER* want to make anyone feel that they are less of a mother or a parent by feeding their child formula. It is nutritious and babies have been drinking it for years. I was a formula fed baby! (Mom has serious breast issues including a few surgeries so nursing was out of the question). Am I less of a person? No...

I do agree with you in that I wish more people would try to nurse before making the decision to formula feed. I realize that the idea is unrealistic. I was conviced I would formula feed until I was about 6 months pregnant and decided to "give it a try". I attended my first LLL meeting at 8 months, bought "The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding" and read it from cover to cover. It is one of the best things I have done as a Mom and I am glad I took the chance. I was lucky in that I had 100% support from my DH and family. A lot of people don't have that.... :(

Just my two cents...

[Jeanne]

I purposely avoided all printed material about BF and didn't talk about it with anyone. I knew I wanted to do it and didn't want to fear it in any way. Most of my friends did formula and have really negative attitudes about BF so I knew I wasn't going to get any support.
My first DD gave me a cracked nipple before I even left the hospital. I was having such a problem with the latch but had the most wonderful lactation nurse who supported me through it and sent a visiting nurse to my house the day after I got home. It hurt me for 10 days straight. My husband would cringe just watching me put her on as it hurt so bad that I would stomp my foot on the ground and arch my back just to get through the first few seconds. I never let it defeat me though. The same situation was repeated with my second. Several people told me that I was doing it wrong because it should never hurt. BS! It hurts for a good week or two and then it goes away. If you're committed to it, you get through it.
However, I may have given up if I had some of the severe problems that others have had. I bow to those who have made it through all of that. I called LLL when my supply decreased and was given bad info that even I knew not to be true. So I started supplementing at 3 months when I returned to work because I had to. No amount of pumping was going to increase my supply. It was purely hormonal for me. And I've never felt guilty about it.

[kijip]

Thanks for pointing out that LLL varies from place to place depending on the politics and beliefs of the leaders in that area. Most are great BUT some use it as a platform to push a serious agenda. Me, I prefer my feeding advice sans lifestyle judgments, hard sell AP and pro-life politics (bizarre combination in a liberal city!) so I had to go elsewhere. But most chapters don't seem to have the politics (or else LLL would not be as popular as it is , no?)

[MelissaTC]

I won't disagree that LLL certainly appeals to people who have those beliefs. I am in agreement with you in that I prefer my feeding advice free of those things as well. Like I said, there is one Mom in particular at our LLL meetings that tries to persuade the pregnant Moms into home births to the point that she hounds them! I understand that she is enthusiastic and had a good experience. But some people are not interested and she needs to learn to take a hint! LOL...

I have found on some groups and message boards that people do take BFding to push another agenda. I have heard it all. And I respect other people's right to choose what they want but I am not into what they are selling! :)

[lizajane]

i agree with you. i truly understand. i had HORRIBLE pain and every lactaction expert i saw told me his latch was PERFECT. but i also wanted to say that i had a fantastic experience with LLL (the meetings were NOT for me, but two women visited my house to help me) and i don't know what i would have done without them. so it can go both ways, depending on who you talk to.

[Vajrastorm]

LLL is run by volunteers (at least at the local level). It is FREE. Somtimes I think people expect too much from LLL.

Not to take away from how annoying it is to be given advice that does not suit your circumstances or is incorrect.

I also think its a bit unfait to say they "lied." I think the person was misinformed, not a liar.

If (generic) you can afford it, I think a certified LC is the best bet for breastfeeding problems. I am really glad LLL exists, but I don't think volunteers are going to have the same level of knowledge as professionals.

Edited to add: a good friend of mine had terrible pain in the early months of breastfeeding. She saw a handful of different LCs, tried treating for thrush, and eventually saw a dermatologist who works with BFing moms. The final diagnosis was sensitive skin. Latch was fine, there was no thrush - BFing just HURT her.

I saw how frustrating and difficult it was for her. I totally agree that breastfeeding can hurt even when everything is being done correctly.

[kransden]

I went to some LLL meetings, while some of the people were nice, some were just plain nuts. They really felt ALL and I mean ALL women should bf. I finally had to stop going.

I volunteer for an AIDs organization. There are 4 ways to get AIDS, blood, breastmilk, vagina secretions and seamen. They (I am not making this up) felt it was better to bf your child if you had AIDS then to give them formula. What sort of mother knowingly puts their child at risk of death??


Karin and Katie 10/24/02

[red71]

This is the very first time that I have posted on any of these topics. So, I have been a "lurker" for a year now. Pretty sad, but quite frankly, my first year of motherhood has been hard. Yes, wonderful, but still HARD. Just admitting that is why I have not posted. However, this is a topic that I feel has contributed greatly to my overall frustration with first time mothers ( and I am one). I fully intended to breastfeed for as long as I could. Although I knew it would be best for my baby, I never felt comfortable with it. The whole idea of it turned me off. I can't wait for the nasty responses about that admittance! However, you can save it for others; I was pretty much ostracized from my "mom's group"& my book club for that. I assure you that I have paid my dues. I breastfed my daughter through mastitis ( I didn't know I even had it for TWO WEEKS!!!)and I thought I was going crazy with the misery that I felt; I thought I was losing my mind. I would rather go through labor all over again and then some to avoid feeling as miserable as I felt. Anyway, I pumped and I drank water and I took fenugreek to keep my daughter going. She refused the breast at 4 months. We have loved every minute since that feeding nightmare is behind us. You know who your friends are.

[stillplayswithbarbies]

I believe those women must have been quoting the current WHO recommendations about breastfeeding and AIDS.

from: http://www.breastfeeding.com/all_about/all_about_more.html

"f. AIDS
The lack of a dose response affect between breastfeeding and perinatal HIV-1 transmission in the presence of the protective effect of breastfeeding against common causes of early childhood morbidity and mortality support the current WHO recommendation that breastfeeding should continue to be promoted in all developing countries, including those with high HIV-1 prevalence rates in women of child bearing age.
Source: Ryder,R., "Evidence from Zaire that Breastfeeding by HIV-1 seropositive Mothers is not a Major Route for Perinatal HIV-1 Transmission but does Decrease Morbidity". AIDS 1991; 5(6):709-14."

The way I am reading that, the babies are at more risk of death if not breastfed.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[Rachels]

Yep. Also, formula has to be mixed with something as the RTF kind is not readily available in most places. The quality of the water supply in most developing countries is terrible and MUCH more dangerous for new babies.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[McQ]

OK I'm not trying to start something, but I didn't take Karin's (kransden) post to be addressing the conditions in third world countries. Rather the position of some at the local LLLs in this country.

Allison
~ mommy to Declan 3.24.03
and number 2 EDD 9.14.04

[dogmom]

I think the problems that come up with LLL is that there really aren't a lot of alternatives out there. Yes, I have definately met LLL members that alienate mothers with the "religious zeal" approached to breastfeeding. In general I think the all purpose answer, "If it hurts you must not be doing it right," is not helpful. LLL members, books and healthcare providers all say that. I realize the wording is a little different, and no one likes to use the term "right or wrong", but as a new mom I think that is what most people hear.

I think the larger problem is health care providers abdicating their responsibility to LLL. I think it's great to refer client/patients to LLL to support groups, but the OB, or pediatrician, should be able to provide most breastfeeing advice for most mothers. I realize they usually don't, but they SHOULD be able to. Lactation Consultants are great, but they can be hard to find and most insurance won't pay for it just because "your nipples" hurt. It's the same complaint I have about doctors referring heavy drinkers to AA as a one size all solution. Health care professionals, speaking as one, should offer more than just a phone number to a support group run by volunteers, no matter how wonderful.

I also think whole concept of latch and pain with nursing needs to be approached differently. The mother may have never breastfed before, and baby certainly never has. (Hey, breathing is still a new concept!) So it makes sense that starting out at full speed, which is what nursing round the clock is, is not going to be easy. Advice, adjustingh technique, etc. can all help, but I think realistic expectations are in order. I know whenever I started to feel guilty and/or bristle at the concept of correct or incorrect latch (while trying to push my breast out of the way, feed by DS, and look at the pictures in the book) I just reminded myself how far both of us came in less than a year.


Mom to Harvey
1/16/03

[ethansmom]

I was SO frustrated in the beginning because it hurt like h@ll and everyone said his latch was perfect! I had no idea BF could hurt because no one really talks about it! I did have one co-worker mention in passing that it was much harder than she had anticipated.

I've never been to a LLL meeting, probably because my sister is a leader and I've heard stories from other friends...Just not my cup of tea.

Anyhow, I now don't hesitate to let pregnant friends or friends who are just interested, know that it is HARD in the beginning, and for us, the best thing was a LC.

[christic]

>
>I think the larger problem is health care providers
>abdicating their responsibility to LLL. I think it's great to
>refer client/patients to LLL to support groups, but the OB,
>or pediatrician, should be able to provide most breastfeeing
>advice for most mothers. I realize they usually don't, but
>they SHOULD be able to. Lactation Consultants are great, but
>they can be hard to find and most insurance won't pay for it
>just because "your nipples" hurt. It's the same complaint I
>have about doctors referring heavy drinkers to AA as a one
>size all solution. Health care professionals, speaking as
>one, should offer more than just a phone number to a support
>group run by volunteers, no matter how wonderful.
>

An excellent point and one of the reasons I find myself feeling uneasy about the upcoming breastfeeding awareness ad campaign. While I realize fear of the dangers of formula feeding may in fact be an excellent motivator to attempt breastfeeding, I feel like it's a pretty lousy motivator to making that attempt successful. And I just don't think we have the infrastructure--either within our healthcare system or the workplace--to give every woman the help she needs to make it work. I think the burden will then fall even more heavily on LLL and other volunteer support groups.

My understanding is that the ads are specifically aimed at first-time mothers who plan to use formula, and African American women in particular, where bf rates are currently the lowest. These women will often not have the support of family and friends and will most likely live in communities where bf is not the norm and LLL is not currently active. I've read that LLL is setting up phone and email hotlines in order to reach out to new mothers, but that hardly seems adequate, and again should not have to be their responsibility.

I know the campaign is also pushing for more bf support in the healthcare system and for working mothers, but before this support is in place, using fear of health consequences to influence feeding choice seems misguided to me, especially when we know how important confidence can be in making bf work.

Anyone else feeling pro-bf but anti-this campaign...?

[flagger]

I didn't either.

[sirensrise]

oops. accident here, did not mean to reply.

[mharling]

That makes sense, didn't really think about that. BUT, wouldn't this be a large part of the reason WHO has longer nursing recommendations than the AAP?

And yes, I agree with Allison and Flagger, Karin was asking about developed countries, not developing countries.

*Edited for typo.

Mary
Lane 4/6/03

[kransden]

I was talking about here in the US. I certainly understand that in 3rd world countries the water isn't potable and bm would be preferable. Without bm the babies would die. With it, they might contract AIDS and if they do, they might grow out of it or they will die.

What I am talking about are women who are often "former" crack addicts. They don't have good nutrition, are HIV positive or have AIDS. Why would you want these women to bf? Why would you want the baby at risk to contract AIDS or get an extra dose of crack? Isn't bfing all about what is good for the baby? I felt they were so wrapped up in bfing they lost sight of why most of us want to bf in the first place, it is good for the child.

BTW, my BF is a man with AIDS, that is how I got hooked up with the org. Probably about 75% of the women and children that get services there are because of women that were prostitutes due to drug addiction. It is very sad seeing these little kids come in with their grandmas. It just tears me up.

Karin and Katie 10/24/02

[MartiesMom2B]

> BUT, wouldn't this be a large part of the reason WHO has longer
>nursing recommendations than the AAP?
>

Mary,

You are correct about this. I've discussed this very thing with my best friend who is in public health about this and specializes in women's health. One factor of the WHO recommendation is to insure that babies in developing countries will get the nutrition that they need for the first two years that they might not otherwise get. Secondly the WHO recommends this because its also a method of family planning.

Sonia
Proud Mommy to Martie 4/6/03

[Rachels]

True, but it's not a recommendation that is made only for third-world countries. It's made for the US, too, and the reason is that across all variables, the benefits of bf for moms and babies continue to increase the longer you nurse. There does not appear to be a point at which the considerable advantages of bf plateau, and especially in those first two years, ALL babies worldwide will benefit from continued nursing. Look up Kathryn Dettwyler's research if you'd like to know more. For developing countries, the risks associated with formula feeding are more pronounced, but the benefits of BF hold constant worlwide.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[MartiesMom2B]

That's true too. After all it's called the World Health Organization and not the Third World Health Organization. I knew participating in Model UN would have some use in my adult life. ;)

Sonia
Proud Mommy to Martie 4/6/03

[memedee]

" am definitely a BF advocate, but more importantly I think people need to do what is best for themselves and their babies. My cousin was unable to BF and her DD ended up in the hospital because she was malnourished after my cousin kept trying. To this day she gets upset because the BF advocacy groups have made her feel like she is not a good mother. On the flip side, I don't see the formula companies saying that you are a bad mother if you BF. I know this is long, but I just get really worked up about it. I think everyone should try to BF but I don't think we need to judge those who don't."
I get worked up about this too.Everyone does what they think is best for their child and still there are things we all feel guilty about.It would be so much better if people stopped judging others and their decisions.
I think sometimes judging others who do things differently is a way of validating their own motherhood skills
The other thing that is annoying is when people quote the so called experts to validate their decisions.
Medical experts of all kinds change their recommendations and opinions ALL THE TIME.Just ask your mother.
And one day our children will be telling us how everything we did is no longer accepted and even DANGEROUS.