Need to vent: unsolicited advice (LOOOONGGGG)

[deborah_r]

Is it possible to respond to unsolicited advice in a non-defensive manner? I can't imagine how. I just received some and it just pissed me off so bad, that I responded very negatively. Yet, when I think about it, I know in theory this woman was correct.

I'm walking my dog, and it's dark, a couple of hours ago. I walk past the resident crazy homeless man who walks down my street every night, from the park where he spends the day, and he is muttering to himself. This always makes me uneasy, although he seems harmless, he is a rather large man and could inflict harm if he chose to. I would feel less comfortable if I didn't have my dog with me, who would surely attack him if he came near me.

About 5 paces later I pass by a woman who is walking her cocker spaniel, who has just come out from one of the condominiums on my street. She is letting her dog roam on its long leash, so I am having to restrain my dog, who pretty much lunges at anything that might be interesting. He does not do well with other dogs. Still focused on the homeless man, I don't even realize she is talking to me at first. Then I realize she is telling me that choke chains are really bad for dogs. I say "OK, thanks, he's my dog, I'll take care of him" and keep walking. She is not satisfied and keeps talking saying how she hopes it's not hurting him. First reaction is...not typeable here...so I say "OK thank you, he's my dog. Thanks."

I was really mad, but then I'm thinking, what if I wasn't restraining my child properly in his carseat and someone came up and told me? It would be the right thing for that person to do, but I would feel defensive for having been criticized for how I was doing things. SO I'm thinking maybe I should not be mad. I used to believe choke chains were bad, but I have been through a succession of collars with this dog and nothing works. I know a choke chain is meant for training and not for ongoing use. I used the "Gentle Leader" for a while and it works pretty good, but 2 have broken and I have not goten another. And the dog hates it and people always think it looks cruel, when in fact it is not cruel at all. They think it's a muzzle or something. So, no, a choke chain was not in my plans, but happens to be what I am using currently.

I have never been able to train him not to pull. DH and I tried obedience training (he passed) but we have just found we are NOT good dog trainers. So should I have brought him to the pound since we couldn't train him properly, where they might put him to sleep since he is an older dog? Would that be better for him that the "abuse" he suffers from me using a choke chain?

My problem is, she does not know anything about me or what I have been through with this dog. We were totally unprepared for a dog and how to train one, and he is a very spirited, stubborn dog with a very definite mind of his own (I've researched the breeds we believe he is most simlar to and have more than once come across the term "not recommended for first-time dog owners" "stubborn" "willful"). Should I have given up like lots of people do and brought him to the pound? I don't know. But we decided to give him the best life we could even though we never felt he was trained properly. Some dogs don't even get walks. We have spent thousands of dollars on this dog in food and toys and beds and illnesses and tests and a broken leg when he got hit by a car - we had $2500 of surgery costs to get a metal plate put in his leg so he wouldn't be a 3-legged dog.

So all that flashes through my head as this woman is accusing me (in my mind) of not caring about my dog. But my mouth does not work that quickly, and my brain needs time to sort things out, so I am never good on the spot. So I feel like an idiot for my close-minded response. I mean, if I suggested to someone that they should not, for example, hit their child, and they said "it's my child, I'll do what i please" I would think that persom was an idiot, and I;m sure this woman think I am an idiot. But then again I don't feel approaching somebody in the dark on a Sunday night when they just want to get home to watch The Sopranos after a long day dealing with a 10-month-old baby is the best way to get a good response from them.

[AngelaS]

Maybe if she were actually WALKING her dog instead of standing in her yard with a long lead so her dog can pee in the neighbor's yard, your dog wouldn't have been lunging at hers. But, alas, she was too lazy to actually give her dog a bit of excercise and knowing that she was the lazy one in the wrong, she tried to tell you that you were doing something wrong. Phooey on her.

A choke chain when used properly is not bad. That's all I've ever used on my dogs and they were hardly abused by it....

[nwaddellr]

All the trainers I've ever worked with say choke collars (when put on correctly and all that stuff) are actually more human than flat collars because the dog learns better and doesn't need to get yanked around as much. Heck, we had a pit bull mix dog with a similar disposition as your dog (it sounds) and used a pinch collar (the one with the prongs) because he was better behaved on that. Again, it may look evil, but when used correctly is actually better for the dog. So, in this case, your nosy neighbor was wrong!

[nitaghei]

Here's my take as a dog trainer:

That woman was wrong. (As an aside - the vast majority of cocker spainels are owned by idiots. Obviously, I'm in the minority). :)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a slip collar (I prefer that to "choke") if it's used correctly. That includes both training and walks. I prefer walking my dogs on nylon slip collars to buckle collars - it gives me better control. As long as you're not leaving a slip collar on an unattended dog, or two dogs playing together, you're fine.

The woman was out of line. I admit I have pointed out to people when the slip collar is on incorrectly (so it actually does choke the dog). But I try to do this as politely and non-confrontationally as possible.

One suggested response: My dog trainer recommends walking on a slip collar.

A ruder response: Hey - at least I'm actually walking my dog - which you aren't.

The Gentle Leader is wonderful. I used it on my cocker when we first got him, and he pulled like he was a malamute.

Okay - no flames, please. Keep in mind I train my own dogs with a clicker - basically, no force.

This is my advice, based on your description of your dog. I assume he's big, and strong, as well as stubborn. In your situation I would recommend a pinch collar (also called a prong collar) over a slip collar. I am not making this recommendation lightly. You are obviously a responsible dog owner, and want to do the right thing. If your dog pulls on a slip collar, the pinch collar will work better. The important thing is the fit. It must be snug. You might have to add or remove links. BTW, I have put a pinch collar on my own leg - and it doesn't hurt, if it fits correctly. I know, it looks worse than any of the alternatives, but can be the most humane choice.

HTH

Nita
mom to Neel, January 2003
dog mom to a cocker and a PWD

[deborah_r]

We tried the prong collar MANY years ago and he still pulled so hard his neck bled! (We stopped immediately when we realized that was happening) I'm sure it works on some dogs, but not mine!

Thanks Nita!

[nitaghei]

May be worth trying again - especially if he's been on the Gentle Leader. Also - did you have it on right? It has to up high, right behind the ears. I've never had a dog break his skin in any of the classes I taught - if the collar is fitted correctly. The people at Petsmart don't have a clue about correct fit. Nor do a lot of so-called trainers.

Though - if that works for you, the GL is absolutely the best option. It's absolutely my first recommendation. The long term solution is training - but that includes training the owner!! :) LMK if you want more information - there are lots of ways to use positive reinforcement to stop pulling, but no quick fix. I would say it took me 6-8 months of consistent work to get my cocker to stop pulling.

Nita
mom to Neel, January 2003
dog mom to a cocker and a PWD

[COElizabeth]

LOL, Nita! I DO have a Malamute, and I have actually had someone come up to me on the street and *suggest* I use a prong collar (I think that is what they are called - the metal ones that have u-shaped pins?). We trained him with a Gentle Leader at first and then with a slip collar (per dog trainer's recommendation and practice). He graduated from both puppy kindergarten and junior obedience and then went to "boarding school" with a strict trainer while we were on our honeymoon (and for a couple of weeks afterwards). That trainer was the one who used the slip collar. He did pretty well with that for a while, but we still never got him to the point where he wouldn't pull to go greet another dog. Lately he has regressed in his pulling (to mark fire hydrants, greet dogs, chase rabbits, visit people, etc.), and DH usually insists on holding the leash because our dog is SO strong (I've fallen in an icy sidewalk and otherwise scraped myself up a couple of times from the dog yanking me so hard). Do you think a prong collar is something we whould try? If so, can you recommend a good guide to using it correctly?

Elizabeth, Mom to James, 9-20-02

[memedee]

I know nothing about dogs or choke collars but I hate people who venture an opinion when not asked, particularly strangers.
I do not know how to respond to them either. I wish I had a good answer for them that would be as inoffensive as possible as I am not confrontational.
I can think of a lot of rude answers but I would not be able to say anything that sounde like mind your own business.

[nitaghei]

For me, the prong collar is a last resort, and a temporary measure.
If he's regressing, I would first recommend going back to the Gentle Leader. Use the GL for a while by itself; then hook up both the GL and the slip collar, then leave the GL on, but hook the leash to the slip collar alone; lastly, remove GL and use the slip collar by itself.

If this doesn't work, then use the prong. I don't know of any online guide. What you might want to do is look up a local obedience club - you should be able to find a list at www.akc.org - and talk with one - or more - of the instructors there. The best way to get a fit is to have someone knowledgable do it hands on. Other than that - make sure it's high on the neck (just behind the ears) and snug. The give should only be at the chain part. Let me go home and try on the one I have - it's been a while since I've used one, and I'm a little rusty on directions! :) - and I'll update this if I need to.

Other than that - malamutes are born to pull!! He's never going to be a Golden! There are some breed specific things one just has to accept (the cocker's flightiness and 2 second attention span; the PWD's mouthiness and territoriality) - and try to limit them to mututally acceptable levels. As an aside - have you read Susan Conant's murder mysteries? The featured dogs are malamutes.

Nita
mom to Neel, January 2003
dog mom to a cocker and a PWD

[COElizabeth]

Thanks. I need to find his GL and see if it still fits. I think he may have outgrown it, since we have used the slip collar exclusively since he was about 9 months old (for walks, of course - he doesn't wear it all the time). And yes, I know he's born to pull - thousands of pounds. :) I don't mind some pulling, and I have accepted that it takes two of us to walk both the stroller and the dog; I just don't like getting wrapped around and slammed up against a signpost when a "friend" starts barking at him and he takes off! What I really need is for DH to take him skijoring. We have the harness for it, and I am sure it would do wonders for using up some of Kenai's energy. Of course, it's too late for this season now. Maybe next winter. I'll have to check out the mysteries!

Elizabeth, Mom to James, 9-20-02

[nitaghei]

What I
>really need is for DH to take him skijoring. We have the
>harness for it, and I am sure it would do wonders for using up
>some of Kenai's energy.

Absolutely! A tired dog is a good dog. :)

And BTW - my dogs aren't canine angels, by any stretch. For us, it's trucks!! Especially mail,trash and recycling. trucks As soon as he sees one, all the last 8 (!) years of training may as well not have happened - the cocker goes completely berserk - pulling, barking his little head off - the works!! If you saw him in the vicinty of a trash or mail truck - there is no way you'd believe he'd has as much as a single obedience lesson - let alone an obedience title - or certification as a therapy dog!! And the PWD learned the same obnoxious behavior from the cocker. Sigh. Why don't they ever learn the good stuff from each other - only the bad behavior?

Nita
mom to Neel, January 2003
dog mom to a cocker and a PWD

[Vajrastorm]

We use a prong on our Rhodesian ridgeback mix. He's strong, stubborn, and has quite the prey drive. With a regular collar, he once dragged me across the lawn going after a cat. I had to throw myself to the ground and dig in. What's a few grass stains and skinned knees? (The other choice was being dragged down a hill and over some bricks or letting go)

He's been through obedience up through Good Citizen - one test shy of passing. He is still not reliable on a walk. We used a gentle leader and a halti - he simply found the best angle to pull at, and rubbed a spot on his neck raw where he "braced" the halter. He was very willing to suffer if that meant he could pull at the sight of cats and other dogs. He's getting better about the dogs (with training) but cats are like crack to him. He has NO self control.

So, obviously I think the prong can be an acceptable part of dog walking. We haven't given up on training, but we don't have hours each day to work with him. So the prong is a long "temporary" solution.

I don't look bad, do I?
[img src="http://pic8.picturetrail.com/VOL241/1522968/3445605/42385126.jpg"]

[COElizabeth]

LOL! That dog looks smart as well as strong. Like he knows exactly what you are thinking!

Elizabeth, Mom to James, 9-20-02

[deborah_r]

Nita,

Anytime I try to keep any collar "up high, right behind his ears" it has always just slid down. He shakes and shakes and makes it slkide down. Is that normal, do you have to keep puting it back in place?

[lizajane]

halti is another brand of the same thing as the gentle leader. they work REALLY well for us.

as for the response...

"thanks for caring about my dog, but i have done my research and i feel certain that i haven't made a bad choice for my pet."

[houseof3boys]

My bro is a vet and he recommended us getting a Halti collar for our dog Gordon who is a big puller with the leash!

I would say the same thing she recommended too....but I would probably throw a curse word in knowing me and how angry I would be that someone was judging my ways with my dog (knowing that you love your doggie so much Deb). :)

[nitaghei]

I LOVE Ridgebacks! He's fabulous!

I know about cats being like crack! My extremely well-behaved PWD goes nuts when she sees a cat! It really caught me surprise the first time - because my cocker is really cat-friendly, and until we saw the cat I didn't think the PWD had it in her to pull on her leash. Thankfully - she's nowhere near as big or strong as a Ridgeback.

I totally believe in using whatever you need to do to keep your dog (and you) safe and safely exercised. If a prong works, use it! If it's a Halti or a Gentle leader, or a harness - that's great, too.

What drives me crazy, though, other than seeing a slip collar put on the wrong way, is a slip or prong collar with TAGS!! These are training devices - get a buckle collar for tags and full time wear. And, yes, I've noticed that every single picture posted on these boards has a dog wearing tags on a flat collar! :) :)

Nita
mom to Neel, January 2003
dog mom to a cocker and a PWD

[nitaghei]

Sounds like it's too big for him. You should only have a couple inches slack at most with a slip collar. With a prong, the only give should be on the chain part.

If the slip collar does that - you might want to try a toggle slip collar. You get a better fit with a dog with a big head with a toggle rather than a conventional slip collar. This is a toggle collar:
http://tinyurl.com/2d26q

I get a much better fit with this on both my dogs (big heads both).

If his prong did that too, you should try removing a link. The collar should not slip.

HTH

Nita
mom to Neel, January 2003
dog mom to a cocker and a PWD