I am just so incredibly hurt.

[JoyNChrist]

This is gonna be long, but I need to vent.

My best friend in the whole world is a guy. We've been incredibly close since we were in the 7th grade. I don't think I ever went one whole day during middle school, high school, or college without talking to him on the phone. I think our families always thought we'd end up marrying one another, but there's never been anything romantic between us. We're just really, really great friends. Obviously, once we both graduated college and I got married, we started talking less frequently, but we still try to call at least once a week, and he always stops by if he's in town. DH is totally cool with this - he knows how important this friendship is to me, and this guy is honestly more like a brother to me than anything else.

About a year ago, my friend started dating a really nice girl he met in college. I've met her several times, and she seems really wonderful and he's obviously very happy with her. So I was thrilled when he told me that he proposed. So thrilled, in fact, that I invited them over for dinner to celebrate when DS was 8 days old. Yes, you read that right - I got dressed, made sure my house was clean, and cooked dinner for them when I had an eight day old baby at home. And I was happy to do it - he's wonderful, she's great, and I was just incredibly happy for them.

So imagine my surprise when my friend called me yesterday to awkwardly inform me that his bride-to-be said she's not sure if she'd be "comfortable" inviting me to the wedding. Apparently, she finds it a little "strange" that he and I are such close friends, and she doesn't want me to be there.

I am shocked. And sad. And so very, very hurt. She's known since they met that we're friends. She's met me several times. I've been so nice to her, and I always thought she liked me. And then she brings this up, out of the blue.

My friend is very upset about it, but I told him not to worry about how I feel - God knows I don't want to ruin their wedding. I just can't believe I'm not going to get to be there - this is seriously like missing my brother's wedding. Maybe even worse.

I'm literally crying as I type this. I just don't understand why she'd act this way. He's been such a huge part of my life (by the way, he was *in* my wedding), and now I don't get to be there for such an important part of his. And, of course, now I'm going to feel awkward about calling him or visiting them, since I know how she feels about me.

This royally sucks.

[Melanie]

I'm so sorry. I'd be very hurt as well.

[psophia17]

You know, in that situation, I'd tell my friend that any woman who didn't trust him about my friendship with him was not wife material. For the rest of his life, if he "caves," you will be suspect in her eyes, and she will have effectively ended a friendship. He should consider that if she is willing to do this once, she'll do it again...and again...

Marriage is about trust, after all, and it doesn't sound like there's much there.

[GlindaGoodWitch]

Oh. That's just terrible.

Is there any possibility that he had feelings for you that you were unaware of? Maybe he confided in his bride to be?

Because really, there doesn't seem to be any reason for her to be insecure otherwise, at least that I can think of. Even if she doesn't like you.

I had a super small wedding and there were STILL people there I didn't like, but they were important to DH so there you have it.

Maybe you need to call her and tell her that whatever she decides about the invitation, you want to make sure she absolutely understands there is NOTHING romantic between you & your pal. Perhaps she just needs to hear it from you. Make it about the issue at hand which is after all your friendship and not the wedding. I can't help but think if she doesn't want you at their wedding, she isn't going to want you calling either.

[schums]

I'm sorry. I'd be incredibly hurt and in tears as well. I'd be really upset at her, but incredibly hurt because of HIM. He needs to let his bride know how important your relationship is (assuming he feels the same way as you) to HIM and how much HE wants you to be there. If she's this insecure about YOU, imagine how much fun he'll have if he has to work long hours with a woman at work, or goodness forbid travel with her?!

I don't think this needs to be a "break off the engagement" situation, but I do think he needs to make it clear to her that your friendship means something to him.

FWIW, I would have had SERIOUS second thoughts if DH had told me not to invite very close male friends (some of whom I HAD dated) to our wedding.

Hope this makes sense.

Sarah
Mom to Alex (3/2002) and Catherine (8/2003)

[s7714]

I'll be the first person to tell you that I rejected having one of DH's old "friends" coming to our wedding, but it was because she was very prone to making scenes and I knew she'd been chasing DH for several years.

Perhaps this woman is just feeling unsure about your feelings towards him (yeah, I know you're already married). Maybe you could write her a letter explaining how you've always felt like he was a brother to you and how hurt you would be to missing out on such an important event in his life, especially since he was there for your's. Maybe if she understands your view of the relationship better she might be less hesitant to say no to you attending. (And if she doesn't, maybe she's just a bridezilla who'll simmer down once the stress of the situation is over.)

I'm sorry you have to deal with this!

Jennifer
Mommy to
Miss Pure Energy 3/03
Miss Limit Tester 6/05

Our bones may be brittle, but our spirit is unbreakable.
Osteogenesis Imperfecta www.oif.org

[niccig]

Uggh, that's just not right. And I agree about issues of trust that this all raises. DH's girlfriend from high school married us. I met DH traveling, then his friend (sister to his best friend, and friend for 14 years after no longer dating), joined us on Europe leg of the trip. On the first day it was SOOO clear that she and DH were friends, like siblings. The rest of the trip was heaps of fun, and then when DH and I got married, she was the perfect person to marry us as she was there at the beginning of our relationship.

She sounds very insecure. I mean you're married and have a child, and you and your friend were never anything more than friends. Come on, grow up.

[ellies mom]

I'm really sorry about that. I know how painful it is. That happened with one of my dearest friends from high school. Even though we lived on opposite coasts, she made him cut off our friendship because she didn't feel it was appropriate. It really sucked then and honestly it still sucks some 17 years later.

I hope he is able to talk to her and she comes around. I have to agree that it is a little too controlling for me.

[o_mom]

nak

Yeah, this. Jealousy does not a strong marriage make...

[katydid1971]

She is jelous because of your past and she must know that somewhere the bond you have is stronger than the one she has with him. Even though there isn't anything romantic going on ever she is jelous that he can have such a close relationshio with you. I bet there are some issues in their relationship that have NOTHING to do with you but she wants to blame you instead of really dealing with them. I'm afraid that this isn't going to change because she will always be looking for problems that aren't there (I have a SIL like this). I am sending you hugs and I hope things work out for you. I can't imagine how you are feeling but realize there is little you can do that she won't be all over. Good luck!!!!

[hez]

It does suck. I'm sorry.

I've been to my three best guy friends' weddings. I had even dated one of them freshman year of college-- his wife knows because she lived in our dorm. That friend and I went so far as to make sure our weddings were scheduled so we could each attend the other's (you know, avoiding honemoons). It would have been weird not to. We still see them every time we go home (and it's been 9 years since we got married).

If she hadn't met you, I could see that there could be some jealousy-- but she has & she knows about your friendship. I'm sorry you'll miss out on their special day.

[niccig]

I think you hit the nail on the head. I bet she's jealous because you have a longer past with him and knows things she doesn't, and she wants to wipe out everything that happened pre-her. You may not be the only friend this will happen to. I went to school with my BIL's brother. Years later I met his wife and I called him by his school nickname, and she shot daggers at me for the rest of the visit. She didn't like that I knew something she didn't, and I was female, so I was a threat. Again I say, some people don't grow up.
I'm sorry this is happening.

[Globetrotter]

I feel for you as a similar thing happened to me. One of my best friends was given an ultimatum by his girlfriend (who was my friend first) that it was either her or me! We were truly just friends so I was devestated. However, years later I learned that he had told her in the past that he had feelings for me (they weren't doing well as a couple at the time). I can see how that changed everything but I didn't know, or I chose not to see the signs!! We even considered each other brother and sister! The funny thing is, this ultimatum came about after I was engaged and about to be married. You'd think that would have made me "safe" but she still felt threatened.

He used to joke that he would be my "Best man" when I got married but, after her ultimatum, he didn't even attend my wedding :( as we broke off the friendship a few weeks beforehand. I still feel a bit sad about it, but I didn't want to cause problems in their relationship.

In your case, maybe you could talk to her and express your concern. Maybe her friends have been planting ideas in her head. You never know! I hope you can work this out. I know it's really hard :(

[kijip]

I would be worried if my best friend was about to marry someone so jealous and controlling. That is just plain messed up on her part, no two ways about it. Sadly, I think that it effectively limits if not ends your friendship with him. If she does not want you at the wedding, I can hardly imagine she has the fortitude to tolerate you at any other social occasions or that she is going to be willing to "let him" have phone contact like you currently have. And he is setting up a pattern of needing her permission for having contact with you by even broaching the idea of not inviting you to the wedding. Grown men and women should not need their spouses permission to be friends with someone.

My opinion is skewed, because my best all time friend has become very close with my husband to the point that they were each groomsmen for the other and see each other apart from me and my friend's wife :)

There is no reason for a person in a healthy relationship to start cutting off healthy friendships of their spouses...it is really sad. I am so sorry.

[julieakc]

>You know, in that situation, I'd tell my friend that any
>woman who didn't trust him about my friendship with him was
>not wife material. For the rest of his life, if he "caves,"
>you will be suspect in her eyes, and she will have effectively
>ended a friendship. He should consider that if she is willing
>to do this once, she'll do it again...and again...
>
>Marriage is about trust, after all, and it doesn't sound like
>there's much there.


ITA with Petra;she captured my thoughts about this situation perfectly. I also agree with Katie in that people should not need their spouse's permission to be friends with someone.

I am so sorry this is happening to you and I hope it works out so that you and your friend can remain close.

[pb&j]

I'm so sorry. I have some very, very close and dear male friends (even and ex-boyfriend or two in there) that I would be devastated if I lost because of their SO's. They're all married now, and all the spouses have graciously included me (when I was single) and now my family on their Xmas card lists and invites to important family functions. Like the PP's said, I'd really want to know what her motives were for cutting you off from the wedding. And is this jealously/lack of trust really something your friend wants to marry?


-Ry,
mom to Max, age 1.5
and my girl in heaven

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/user_files/37124.gif

[KBecks]

I think your only hope is to reach out to her and try to get to know her better and be her friend. Maybe ask her out for coffee and spend some time with her. If she is uncomfortalbe with you, then it's worth the effort to try and get comfortable. That may mean giving her more attention than your male friend for a while. A lot of people believe that men and woman cannot be friends w/o sexual interest. It's not your job to convince her, but by reaching out to her as friends you can demonstrate that you are not only all about him, and that should help her feel more comfortable with you as a person when you are friends with both of them and not just him.

Katie's mention that her male friend is now great friends with her husband is a good example. You and she may need to get close as part of the evolution of your friendship with the guy.

I wouldn't try to get between the couple; that only "proves" you are a threat.

Hugs and good luck. If you have while before the wedding the bride may have a change of heart, but you may need to ride it out and give some space and just see how things play out on their own.

[Radosti]

Well, I had given that ultimatum to my husband when we were first dating. I am by no means the jealous type, in fact, that's why I married him - he's just that trustworthy. But when we were dating only a few months, he had a prior commitment to attend a wedding as the escort for his one friend. He dated this girl for 1.5 years and they'd been friends for 2 years after that. I had no problem with him going with her. I trusted him by that time already. On the way home, it was late and she'd fallen asleep in the car. He was beat and driving in the dark. He called me to chat with me and stay awake. I asked why she fell asleep instead of keeping up the conversation and he didn't know. Anyway, we'd been chatting for about 10 minutes when she woke up. She asked who he was talking to and he told her. She started shrieking like a banshee. "How DARE he talk to me (the dirty nasty wh**e) while she was in the car with him." Like he was cheating on her. He told her to control herself, but she had obviously concluded that the fact that he went to the wedding with her meant that they were back together. So, this was a shock to her. She jumped out of the car at one of the toll booths and he asked her to get back in. She wouldn't and he was already at the limit of his patience, so he left. The toll booth operators called him and asked him to come back to get her and that they guarantee she'll get back in the car.

He went and got her, took her home. She stormed out of the car, he threw her bag out after her. He called me back as he pulled away. I had had some time to think about it by then. So, I told him:

"I realize this is an ultimatum and it may backfire. You have a long history with her and only a few months with me. But I refuse to be called a dirty/nasty wh**e by one of your friends. Not only that, but I am reasonably sure that she wants you back. So, here is the ultimatum. You are welcome to go back to her, but I will never talk to you again. But if you choose to stay with me, I need a promise that you will never talk to her again."

He must have been really mad at her, because he readily agreed. She called him a few days later and left a tearful message about how sorry she was about her behavior. He never called her back and that was the end of that. I have never ever had to do that to anyone either before or after that incident.

Now, my best friend is a guy. He's always been around since college. My DH is not threatened at all. We go to visit him in Boston and he comes to visit us. My DH (while we were dating) and his friends once made a mistake and scheduled their golf trip over valentine's day. So, to make up for that, he bought me a plane ticket to Boston to spend the weekend with my best friend. Now my best friend has finally met the right girl for him. I am very happy for him. We haven't met her yet, but the way he talks about her, she's the one. They've been dating a year now. We were planning on going up to Boston for my college 10 year reunion in June, but that's scrapped now as my due date is June 14th. So, not going to happen. My friend is talking about ring shopping. So, I think we might make it a family trip up to Boston soon to meet her.

I would be devastated if she told him that he wasn't allowed to be friends with me. That brings tears to my eyes just thinking about it. But she sounds very nice and I'll be pregnant when we meet her, I can't imagine she'd view me as a threat.

[casey0729]

Stacy,

As someone who has a very close guy friend whom my husband luckily adores I feel so bad for you.

I think her finding it "strange" means she is insecure. You can make this explanation simple to her. You and your friend have had ample time and opportunity to get together and you haven't. You're married, and he wants to get married to HER (though that sounds a little dumb lol). That should speak volumes about your FRIENDSHIP, not your laziness in not getting together. Some lightbulb is not going to go off at his wedding causing you to jump up and push your DH aside and yell "I love you, let's run off together". Seriously, this girl needs to check herself and your friend needs to figure out if this is what he wants for the rest of his life. If she's that insecure, marrying him is not going to suddenly cure her. She'll move on to his male friends she finds "questionable" next.

I hope your friend can stand up to her. It will be pretty lonely for him if he cuts everyone she doesn't like/trust out of his life.

Good luck.

KC

DS 5/11/05
DD 7/14/07

[maestramommy]

Stacey, I'm so very sorry about this. If you and your friend have never had any feelings beyond friendship, he needs to make that clear to her. Other than that, I think she is feeling insecure and needs to get beyond it. I have been in your shoes, but in high school where the stakes are never that high. It's a little weird feeling knowing that your bond is deep and longstanding, something that the other woman doesn't have any part of. That is probably why she is feeling insecure.

((HUGS)) I really hope she comes around and changes her mind. Or that your friend re-evaluates the strength of their relationship. I can't imagine going into a marriage when lack of trust on one end.

[californiagirl]

Wow. I can understand being hurt. My best guy friend is getting married and I'm in the wedding; lots of my friends have had friends of the opposite sex in their weddings. I would be sad and mad and worried if his wife had problems with me. I hate it when my friends make bad choices... and a woman who doesn't get the importance of friends isn't a good choice.

[randomkid]

Something similar happened to me, but he wasn't a life long friend. I met this guy on an internship and we went out a few times. There was really nothing there, so we became close friends. He met this very controlling, jealous woman and ended up marrying her. He actually cried when he told me he was getting married. I realized later that this was because he knew our friendship would be over. I wasn't invited to his wedding because I just happened to be the last girl he dated before he met her. This is a guy who dated A LOT and many of his former dates became friends. Many of those girls were at the wedding, but not me. I was also very hurt, but mostly upset with him because I felt he should stand up to her about his friends.

They are now divorced and our friendship is over, I'm sorry to say. This is because the entire time they were married, he wasn't allowed to be friends with me.

I agree with PPs that you should try to address this now or you may not have much of a friendship with him from this point on.

[vsrapture1992]

FWIW,here is my opinion. I do believe that, when you marry,your spouse should be your best friend.I've seen couples who are married and whose "best friends" are members of the opposite sex.Sorry, but that has never sat well with me. It seems a little "off". Ultimately, feelings can become unclear in "friendships" like these and seemingly innocent relationships can turn into affairs. Why invite trouble? I mean,look at Prince Charles,Princess Diana and Camilla Parker Bowles. When Charles and Diana married, Camilla was supposedly a good friend.Now, over 25 years later, Charles and Camilla are married and Diana is dead.
That said, I don't see why you couldn't go to the wedding.It's a one time deal.I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

[schums]

Just to clarify, it was (is) well known that Charles and Camilla's relationship was intimate before he married Di. Even DI knew this, so this example is not really the best.

If you were asked to give up a lifelong friendship when you got married, would you? What if your soon-to-be DH didn't want you to be friends with a particular woman because he thought she might be gay and you might decide to leave him for her? This happens, you know (I know a couple of marriages where this happened, actually). What if you were asked to give up a very close relationship with a male cousin because in some states it's legal to marry and you might run off with him? We'd all agree that your soon-to-be DH was being more than a little controlling and needed a good kick.

The OP's relatioship is long standing and platonic. If his soon-to-be DW can't get that or is that paranoid, he's going to have a long life ahead of him.

Sarah
Mom to Alex (3/2002) and Catherine (8/2003)

[vsrapture1992]

>Just to clarify, it was (is) well known that Charles and
>Camilla's relationship was intimate before he married Di.

You say Diana knew.I have read this and I have also read that she was unaware as to the true nature of their relationship. I have also read that she knew but was under the impression that once she and Charles were married, Camilla would go away.Obviously, she didn't.
Yes, the OP is not having an inappropriate relationship and I am confident that she would not. The point I was trying to make was that, as time goes on and the nature of relationships change, new feelings can occur that make others uncomfortable. Just a thought process.

[kijip]

> FWIW,here is my opinion. I do believe that, when you
>marry,your spouse should be your best friend.I've seen couples
>who are married and whose "best friends" are members of the
>opposite sex.Sorry, but that has never sat well with me. It
>seems a little "off".

I refuse to limit my friendships to my gender, plain and simple. Luckily my husband and I see no reason to find that odd or off. And we trust the other. It takes a lack of trust to find a healthy platonic relationship "off". It takes possessiveness to demand to have your intimate partner cut out innocent relationships. It takes a very short view to believe that men and women care never just friends...I have known my best friend longer than my husband at and no point throughout puberty and high school, college and into when I met and married my husband have I ever been attracted to my best friend. He is a great guy, pretty nice looking in my book, friendly and fun. But it just ain't there and no amount of time could ever change that. :P

WRT spouse needing to be my best friend...he is not. He is 1000 times closer than a best friend could ever be. I am not willing minimize my relationship with my husband by likening it to what I have with my best friends. My husband totally rocks my existence. My best friend is a comfortable brother figure. For oh so many reasons, I could never see or want to see my husband in the same light. Due to the similarities between my friend and my husband (they both play guitar, both dress similarly, listen to the same music, bake, have a similar physical appearance) it is a mystery as to why I would be so attracted to one and totally not attracted to the other...but that speaks to the mystery of love and connection that I will never be able to pin down. I just know that the first time I saw J (my husband), I was captivated and throughly engaged in every moment with him. Both of us would have dropped anything to spend time with each other and we needed no particular reason to see each other. When I met my friend, I was was like "hey, cool Ani DiFranco shirt you have there, wanna go see her concert with my friends and me?". If either of us was interested in the other, something would have happened at some point in the last 13 years :P We are both happily married to others now and never so much as 1/2 of a what if thought from either of us.

I guess cross gender friendships don't make sense to those that don't have them, especially have them while married. But to those of us that do, the idea that there is always sexual tension underneath the surface or a threat of things becoming non-platonic is absolutely incomprehensible. Becoming involved with my best friend is literally as likely to happen as me becoming involved with my brother. Just.not.a.remote.possibility.in.an.ewwwwww.gross. kinda.way. Leaves me totally uninterested and slightly nauseated.


****Rocking out while parenting my smart little munchkin Toby. Just trying to do good in the world, a little at a time. Words to live by: it is *never* the wrong time to do the right thing :)

[gatorsmom]

What a nice way of explaining it. While I could never feel comfortable with a man as a best friend (and DH is too insecure with himself to allow it), I saw how well my mother got along with male friends. She and the neighbor, George, always talked over the fence. She'd be over talking to George on their porch when my dad came home from work and he'd walk over and they'd all chat it up. My mom always had platonic friendships with other guys. She always just treated them like brothers. I wish I could do that but I can't.

Lisa
Mom to Gator July 2003
And Cha-Cha July 2005
and surprise! twins due 11/07!

[dogmom]

I'm going to disagree with some of the PP here. I DON'T think you should reach out to her because in all probability it is going to backfire on you, and you shouldn't have to do it anyway. As far as whether she is controlling/jealous/whatever, you don't know what goes on between her and your friend as a couple unless he tells you. And even then you only get his side of the story. She may be crazy. She may be controlling. She may have gotten burned in a similar situation in another relationship, who knows. But there is nothing you can do about it if your friend wants to marry her. My motto with marriages when I'm somewhat concerned of the pairing is the follows:

I can't stand in front of that train.

Because that is exactly what it is, standing in front of a marriage train. Unless I think someone is marrying and active abuser I just keep my mouth shut. If they break-up I just say I'm sorry until the ink is signed and I know they aren't getting back together. It sucks you may very well lose a friendship over it, because you may. But that is his choice, and you can't do much about it. I certainly would not contort myself to make friends with her.

[slr]

I'm sorry you are in this situation. It sucks! In my opinion, this is something that your friend needs to handle himself. It sounds like something happened, whether he inadvertantly said something or someone else did to make his fiancee worry about the relationship you have with him. Maybe his parents, who always thought you would be married, secretly like you better and shove it in her face all the time. You never know. Like you said, you had met her on several occasions and were always on friendly terms and this seems out of the blue. I would think that if she always had these insecurities, then she wouldn't have wanted to spend any time with you in the past, let alone let him spend time with you. It seems strange that she would pull this out now at her wedding. Right or wrong, your friend is the one who needs to reassure her and make her feel secure if he wishes to marry her. Unfortunately, that doesn't leave you with many options other than to hope things are straightened out before the wedding.

Hope things work out!

[WhiteIris]

Great advice! I just want to say I agree with your point of view. There is no point reaching out - that would just be fueling the fire. You have to just accept other peoples' limitations and move on. She is paranoid and insecure. He is, is seems, willing to toe the line for her. You can't change that. Sadly, your friendship with him may be at an end. (Unless they end up divorcing and you can pick your friendship up where you left off some day in the future.) This is something I've learned through painful experience and I'm a better person for it.

[megs4413]

to be perfectly honest, while i understand that you're upset, it's just not your place and not your business to be involved in their life (i used the singular on purpose). they're going to be married and IMO there's no room for "close" friends of the opposite-gender in a marriage. i realize that it's an unpopular opinion, but hey, i'm used to having those ;)

the fact is, his first, most important friendship exists between his wife and himself. if to make her happy/comfortable he needs to eliminate other relationships, he shoudl do so, because she IS his primary relationship. i don't think it's jealous/possessive of a spouse to have a "no close friends of the opposite sex" rule. i think it's practical. temptation is all around us and why play with fire?

i had a really close male friend (a couple actually) that i had to "give up" for DH's comfort. it wasn't because he was insecure, it was because he MISSED me. he wanted me to be nurturing our relationship, not spending time/energy/effort on a relationship with someone else. emotional affairs are becoming more and more of a problem, and it's reasonable to do what you can to protect your marriage.

i'm sorry that you're losing a friend. i lost one, too, and it SUCKED (especially since he died last year), but my marriage was more important.

[kedss]

Big hugs, Stacy-

I'm sorry folks are like that-

[schums]

Would you have "given up" a close female friend that made DH uncomfortable for the same "emotional affair" reason? Most women I know have what could be called "emotional affairs" with other women -- telling their problems, shoulder to cry on, etc. How about it he suspected a close female friend was gay and would seduce you away (it happens)? At what point are you going to let another person control who you associate with? As Katie said above, I refuse to limit my friendships on the basis of gender. What a shame if we had to go back to the 1950's in terms of gender bias. Women and men CAN be friends withOUT benefits!

Sarah
Mom to Alex (3/2002) and Catherine (8/2003)

[megs4413]

i'd be willing to do almost anything i had to for my marriage/husband.

[schums]

And I'm not willing to be with someone who makes me seriously compromise who I am to be with him.

Sarah
Mom to Alex (3/2002) and Catherine (8/2003)

[megs4413]

if you're identity is wrapped up in who you're friends with, you're on shaky ground, IMO.

[schums]

My identity is not wrapped up in who I am friends with. But it also is not wrapped up in the fact that I am married. Being married is PART of my identity, but it isn't all of it. Just because I am married, I do not cease to exist as an individual. If my husband has an unfounded problem with who I, as an individual, chose to be friends with, it's his problem. If he doesn't trust me enough to be faithful to my marriage vows, and thinks my love for him is that weak, it's his problem.

If you're identity is so wrapped up in "being married" to the point that you lose your individuality, that you constantly have to cater to your husband's ideas of who you "should" be friends with, you're on shaky ground, IMO.

Sarah
Mom to Alex (3/2002) and Catherine (8/2003)

[psophia17]

I'm scratching my head over this statement - playing devil's advocate:

1. Would you give up the BBB for your marriage/husband?
2. Would you give up your pet for your marriage/husband?
3. Would you give up your religion for your marriage/husband?
4. Would you give up your family for your marriage/husband?
5. Would you give up your children for your marriage/husband?

The people and things that had been a part of my life before I met my husband were all part and parcel of who I am, and will remain so, whether they are mostly memories, or are front and center to this day. I have male friends who I rarely talk to, but who I count among my best friends ever, and every single one is someone DH has come to count among his friends. Because he trusts my judgement - up to and including him.

There are tons of sacrifices at play in every marriage, even more once there are children, but to sacrifice something truly important? No way - I wouldn't ask it of my DH, and I would never expect it of him. And vice versa.

[megs4413]

>1. Would you give up the BBB for your marriage/husband?
of course! of course, i'd give it up for $50, too. ;)

>2. Would you give up your pet for your marriage/husband?
if i had one (but i don't...and never have so i am not a good person to ask this question of).

>3. Would you give up your religion for your marriage/husband?
i'm not sure how to answer this other than to say that i was catholic pre-DH and am now protestant

>4. Would you give up your family for your marriage/husband?
like my parents and siblings? yes. if i quote the Bible people will flip, but i will say that i believe it's Biblical to be willing to do so.

>5. Would you give up your children for your marriage/husband?
don't know how to answer that either. i can't imagine a situation, in which, i would have to, but probably not, because i don't know what kind of father wants to give up his kids.

your definition of what is "truly important" and mine are totally different. IMO, a friendship isn't anywhere near "truly important", my kids are, though, as is my faith.

there is of course a line to be drawn here...no way would i let my DH abuse me or my children. i don't want to confuse people into thinking that my DH is some kind of controlling/jealous person.

our relationship is a little different in that there really is no "pre-us" for us...if that makes any sense. i met DH at 14 and didn't really look back, so i don't have any relationships (outside of family) that pre-date him.

[psophia17]

I don't know if it's our respective definitions of "truly important" that are different - perhaps our life experience. If I hadn't had a friendship I considered truly important in my life, I wouldn't take issue with giving it up for my DH's benefit, or potentially at his request. But the friendships I maintain, the ones which have withstood the test of time, are definitely truly important to me, and had my DH wanted me to give them up, I would've found out that he was not husband material, and kicked him to the curb. In fact, I had a boyfriend who tried to dictate my friendships, and that is what ended it.

I do get the lack of a "pre-us" being a factor - but going back to the OP, there was nothing of a "pre-us" nature to Stacy's relationship with her best friend. So why take issue with that? As for me, I am not really in touch with any ex-boyfriend of significance. Not because of DH's feelings, but because that ship has sailed, and there's no point to staying buddy-buddy.

[megs4413]

my point with stacy's situation is that i believe her friend's relationship with his (future) wife is more important so he has to go by what she says. for all we know, he has had feelings for stacy at some point and his fiancee is reacting to that. or maybe she feels the way i do about opposite sex friendships among married people. if the latter is the case, then either he can marry her knowing her position, or not, but i don't think that position makes her a crazy jealous person. the fact of the matter is, emotional affairs are becoming increasingly common because people think they're OK as long as they haven't crossed a physical line, but the damage from an emotional affair can be just as bad, if not worse, than a physical indiscretion. my position is: why play with fire?

[psophia17]

Nowhere in the OP did I read anything to indicate the fiancee was a crazy jealous person, or that there was an emotional affair of significance between Stacy and her friend. For that matter, aren't all friendships by definition emotional affairs?

It is because the friend's relationship with his future wife, whoever that ends up being, is more important that it's an important issue to get taken care of before the wedding, not after. Were I in Stacy's shoes, I would be more than exceedingly concerned for my best friend's future, whether or not I was part of that future. It's up to him, and his choice to make, but she is certainly allowed to point out what the future may hold if he abides by his fiancee's wishes to end a longstanding and platonic friendship.

[megs4413]

i am not suggesting that there is an emotional affair going on between stacey and her friend.

the crazy jealous thing is in response to the responses to the thread. i seem to be one of the few differing opinions and i wanted to offer my perspective.

i have no doubt that stacey is really hurt by this and i understand that feeling of loss and confusion, but it's my *opinion* that she'll have to respect his fiancee's wishes.

[megs4413]

and it's OK to have a different opinion than me. i accept that that's how your relationship works.

[kijip]

>If you're identity is so wrapped up in "being married" to the
>point that you lose your individuality, that you constantly
>have to cater to your husband's ideas of who you "should" be
>friends with, you're on shaky ground, IMO.

That is such a critical point. Thank you for making it. It is unhealthy for spouses to want to control otherwise innocent and healthy friendships.

[kijip]

Very few peeps meet their spouses when they are 14 year old kids. Most people come into a marriage with a history. That can't be ignored. Making big changes to that history is weird IMHO. It is big old red warning sign when either spouse wants to dictate the other's friends. I can't imagine being dependent on my spouse for every aspect of my social life.

Friendships and connections bind me to my community, a community I exist in with my spouse. The connection I have with my spouse is so strong as to make the possibility of us needing to question each other's friendships preposterous. I am WAY too cool for J to stray with some friend or another and vice versa :P Once I lose that confidence, my marriage would be on shaky ground.

****Rocking out while parenting my smart little munchkin Toby. Just trying to do good in the world, a little at a time. Words to live by: it is *never* the wrong time to do the right thing :)

[kijip]

>the fact is, his first, most important friendship exists
>between his wife and himself.

That is hardly a "fact". Some people in great marriages don't even consider their spouses to be friends at all. We put too much burden on a marriage to expect to to be ALL things including best friends. Why would anyone date a friend? I dated a few " friend" types in the past pre-J. I'd prefer to stick with my marriage, that far surpasses any friendship connection.

Why would my female friends be any different than my male friends? I ain't hopping into bed or having an emotional affair or ignoring my spouse for ANY of my friends, female or not.

****Rocking out while parenting my smart little munchkin Toby. Just trying to do good in the world, a little at a time. Words to live by: it is *never* the wrong time to do the right thing :)

[megs4413]

you must just be WAAAY cooler than me, katie. ;)

[kijip]

>you must just be WAAAY cooler than me, katie. ;)

Nah, just really confident in that coolness. We all have it, many fail to see it! :P J married me. I married J. I think he totally rocks and vice versa...the coolness comes from how I know he sees me and how much I know he wants to stay married to me.

Thought: Many of Js male friends are gay (he did spend 6 years working in a men's department store after all, :P). Should I insist he not see them? Nah, because I know surer than day that he will come home to me just as faithful as he went out be it with a straight man, a gay man or an attractive woman. That is a delicious level of freedom and security I refuse to replace with fear.

****Rocking out while parenting my smart little munchkin Toby. Just trying to do good in the world, a little at a time. Words to live by: it is *never* the wrong time to do the right thing :)

[kijip]

I am curious how it is playing out. I hope that you get to maintain your long friendship!


****Rocking out while parenting my smart little munchkin Toby. Just trying to do good in the world, a little at a time. Words to live by: it is *never* the wrong time to do the right thing :)

[megs4413]

i hope you always stay just as secure and happy together as you are now. that's great stability for your family.

[buddyleebaby]

The debate on whether or not men and women can or should maintain healthy platonic relationships outside of their union is really irrelevant to the OP. No matter what your feelings are on Stacy's friend's behavior, or on his fiancee's behavior, Stacy has done nothing wrong, and certainly should be able to mourn the loss of a friendship (in the bitching post).

Hugs, Stacy.

[Jenn98]

I have been following the tangents in this thread for a few days and I finally came here to post my .02 but after reading what Alicia wrote I couldn't agree more. It doesn't matter if you are the kind of person who regularly drops close friends for no reason, or if you are the kind of person who really values good friendship, it doesn't matter. Stacey, I'm so sorry you're feelings are hurt. We're here for you whatever happens with your friend.

[mudder17]

Well said Alicia. Hugs, Stacy. I'm sorry you're hurting and I hope that it all plays out well, but if not, we're here for you.

{{{{Stacy}}}}

Eileen

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[Fairy]

I agree with Karen, this is what I would recommend. I'd reach out to her and invite her to coffee and ask her if you could talk. I a close friend since the exact time as yours, and I was in his first wedding. His ex-wife always hated me, and we were frenemies. There was never anything for her to worry about. Ever! But she had a serious problem with his female friends -- and the male ones, too, actually. But she never trusted him. Hence, they're divorced. The 2nd wife is alot nicer. But to go thru what you are? I know the hurt you must be feeling. FWIW, I also want to agree with a PP that some of this has to go back to your friend; he is a participant in not inviting you to the wedding.

So sorry, Stace.

[Fairy]

Thank you, Alicia, for pointing out that whether or not "men and women can really be friends" is best left out of this thread. Stacy has reached out for support in a forum that is about venting. Please let's remember that and remain civil and not make her feel like she's the bad guy.

-- Fairy

[JoyNChrist]

I just wanted to say that I appreciate what you said.

Not that I'm complaining that my post opened up discussion about proper friendships between married men and women...that's fine, and I think for the most part the discussion has been pretty civil. I haven't been offended by the discussion at all. But that wasn't really my intention when I wrote it...I was just complaining about a situation that, to me, pretty much sucks and had me very upset.

And now for a bit of an update...

I have shared with my friend that I think there are some problems with his relationship, based on her reaction to our friendship (especially with it being such an abrupt change of opinion about me). However, I also told him that that's the last I'll say about it, and he and she need to work things out and make their relationship top priority. If that means I have to bow out of the picture, I'll do so. Not happily, but hopefully gracefully. He says that she's been going through some hard times with work and some family situations, so this may just be a reaction to stress, and not really have that much to do with me at all. Maybe she'll come around, maybe not. I hope, for my sake and the sake of my friend, that she does. If not, I hope he seriously considers his decision to marry her (not just because of our friendship - obviously his marriage is more important than that - but because of possible future issues this could point to). But whatever he decides, I'm not going to get in the way of their relationship. That's not my place.

Oh, and sorry I didn't comment sooner - we're in Mexico visiting family and this is the first time I've checked the boards in days. :-)

[tarabenet]

And once again, Stacy comes out as a class act! Good for you, Stacy. And may your understanding and generosity be more than enough to reassure her that you are a friend, not a threat. Whatever happens in the long run, it is still painful and sucky in the here and now. Sorry about that.

[Marisa6826]

I tell ya, Stacy, you are the epitome of tact. Through and through. If this <cough> broad <cough> can't figure that out, well, then maybe she *should* be jealous of you. You certainly are better at taking the higher road. :)

Hugs, Girlie. I hope you're having a nice time with your family.

We're here for you whenever you need to vent.


-m

[jarrettsmom9705]

Sorry to hear this. The EXACT same thing happened to me a few years ago. Unfortunately, it didn't get any better after the wedding. Not only did he not invite me to his wedding, but he told me that he couldn't come to mine a year later (his wife wanted him to ref her basketball game!!) Since then we haven't really spoken. He never even called or sent me birth announcements for his two children. I had to hear about it from a complete stranger! I blame her, of course, because of her insecurity concerning our platonic relationship, but I blame him as well. If our friendship meant as much to him as it did to me, then he would have found a way to continue it somehow. I hope it doesn't come to this for you and your friend, but if it does you just have to let it go and move forward.

[masha12]

Here's my 2 possible theories:

(1) He was once into you and she is not convinced that he is over you. He might not still be into you, but he might not be completely over you either. There is a gray area in there that is sometimes hard for people to acknowledge; he might not still want to go out with you, but he might not be ready to totally let go.

My husband was in the gray area when I met him. The best thing that happened to us was that she move away with her fiance a month after we met. She is very nice (she was invited to and attended our wedding) and I never had any fear that she would "steal" him from me. But, he held her up on a pedestal for a long time and frankly, if she had still been around, I probably would have gotten tired of it.

My husband denied it at the time, but he admitted a few years later that when we started dating he wasn't completely over her. I told him I knew that and we had a good laugh at his lack of self-awareness.

(2) Even if he was never romantically interested in you, if he talks about you like you are the most awesome person in the whole wide world all the time, well, if I were her I'd have some concerns about whether there was lurking interest or just be annoyed by his failure to see your faults.

In either case, I think she would be justified in feeling threatened. And, there is nothing you can do because the issue has to do with the friend and nothing to do with you or your feelings. Of course, the appropriate response is not to uninvite you to the wedding but to get some counseling about the relationship.

About the only thing you can do is to gush to her the next time you see her about how happy you are that your friend found someone so wonderful. That might at least let her know that regardless of your friend's feelings for you, you are happily married and are thrilled that he found someone to be happily married to also.

[masha12]

Here's my 2 possible theories:

(1) He was once into you and she is not convinced that he is over you. He might not still be into you, but he might not be completely over you either. There is a gray area in there that is sometimes hard for people to acknowledge; he might not still want to go out with you, but he might not be ready to totally let go.

My husband was in the gray area when I met him. The best thing that happened to us was that she move away with her fiance a month after we met. She is very nice (she was invited to and attended our wedding) and I never had any fear that she would "steal" him from me. But, he held her up on a pedestal for a long time and frankly, if she had still been around, I probably would have gotten tired of it.

My husband denied it at the time, but he admitted a few years later that when we started dating he wasn't completely over her. I told him I knew that and we had a good laugh at his lack of self-awareness.

(2) Even if he was never romantically interested in you, if he talks about you like you are the most awesome person in the whole wide world all the time, well, if I were her I'd have some concerns about whether there was lurking interest or just be annoyed by his failure to see your faults.

In either case, I think she would be justified in feeling threatened. And, there is nothing you can do because the issue has to do with the friend and nothing to do with you or your feelings. Of course, the appropriate response is not to uninvite you to the wedding but to get some counseling about the relationship.

About the only thing you can do is to gush to her the next time you see her about how happy you are that your friend found someone so wonderful. That might at least let her know that regardless of your friend's feelings for you, you are happily married and are thrilled that he found someone to be happily married to also.