Mommy's Own and Daddy's Own

[stillplayswithbarbies]

Do you think it makes sense to have a forum just for mommies and one just for daddies? I know that people can't be restricted, but I would hope that we would respect each other's space and not post in the other forum even if we were eavesdropping there.

There have been several issues where mommies wanted to post something just to other mommies and they tried hiding in the Mommy Fit forum, but that didn't work. Maybe if there was a forum specifically for that purpose, people would feel better about it?

Could it be a restricted forum? Maybe only after you have been a member for 60 days and have so many posts, you would be allowed into either the Mommy or the Daddy forum, and only members could read and post?

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[Rachels]

Great idea!!!!!!

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[flagger]

How do you propose to verify everyone's gender? There are 8169 members as of this post. I certainly am not going to scan in my driver's license to verify my identity and it sounds like a logistical nightmare.

[houseof3boys]

I like the mixed forums personally. Although privacy may have been violated on the last risque post, hopefully that is the exception and not the rule.

I think people would find a way to just sneak around it and find a way in anyway.

[peanut4us]

Generally, I like the idea. But i don't know logistically how to do it, and I'm not sure that the Ffields would want to have forums where guests couldn't read. Dunno, but a guess.

In that thread that went bad... someone made a light-hearted suggestion to start a BBB_mommiesonly yahoo group. It would be moderated and have restrictions to enter (like number of posts etc, so we can make sure we know you a bit first). As Flagger implied, we couldn't guarantee that there would be no members of the opposite sex that squeaked into the wrong forum, but it would be a more intimate setting... and well, we do get to know each other a bit around here. It wouldn't be that difficult to pick out the men... I would think.

That's a suggestion if the Fields don't go for yours.

[stillplayswithbarbies]

I guess it would be run on the honor system. You know, where we respect each other and treat each other like the adults that we are.

I just think that having a forum that spells out "this is for mommies to support each other" and "this is for daddies to support each other" might help people to realize that it isn't a good idea to just barge in where they don't fit.

I don't think anyone here would deliberatly post in the "wrong" place, there is no one here that rude, is there?

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[Rachels]

I agree. Speaking as someone who would occasionally post in a mom forum, I have to say that if there's a man here who would masquerade as a woman in order to barge in on discussions to which he wasn't invited...well, then, posting in the wrong forum might not be his biggest problem.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[flagger]

How would anyone propose that you keep Alan out since he had admin privileges on this message board?

Basically this entire forum IS a website of just women only. I think there are only about three or four active MALE posters anyway. IMHO, telling someone they are not welcome is just wrong in so many ways. The idea comes across to me as "I want to be able to post what I want, and the only people who can respond is people who agree with me." The idea that a daddy forum would generate any traffic to warrant it is pretty silly too given the numbers of males on this forum.

The idea that someone's privacy was violated on an open forum on the internet (as someone posted) is pretty outrageous. Just remember even if you do get to have a women only forum either here or elsewhere doesn't mean someone won't share what is posted with a male. This idea also gets way way far away from what I thought this site was all about and that was Baby Bargains and products and just further sends a message that a few want to splinter the discourse.

I believe there already IS a BBB yahoo group that is mom's only. I joined it last year to help someone figure out why their avatar was not working and was made to feel that a man wasn't welcome there so I pulled my membership. Why bring that sort of feeling of exclusion to a public message board?

[Rachels]

> The idea comes across to me as "I want
>to be able to post what I want, and the only people who can
>respond is people who agree with me."

Since when do all women agree?

I think Karen's idea is just respectful of the fact that there are some things in the female experience (like breastfeeding and giving birth) that men simply can't imagine or relate to, no matter how wonderful they may be. I imagine there are things in the male experience beyond a woman's visceral understanding, as well. I don't think this is about exclusion. It's about a particular kind of inclusion. Where's the threat?

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[flagger]

I will just say that I wholeheartedly disagree with this idea. And will repeat what I said before. If anyone wants a forum or board for women only, they should start their own and invite only women. Why does this board have to be all things for all people?

Thankfully it is not my decision and it is not anyone else's but the Field's.

[MartiesMom2B]

I have to say that I don't like this idea. I'll have to admit that I did blush when I realized that some men were reading our posts in the mommyfit section, but when I realized that it was helping out their wives, who don't have time to go on the boards I got over it. For that reason, I don't like the idea of excluding men, especially for birth experiences or breastfeeding. My husband was my partner for my daughters birth and a coach too, why wouldn't I want him to know about other people's experiences. I think the men on the boards have a right to read about the birth experience to share with their wives. And as for breastfeeding, I don't think I'd be able to breastfeed with the confidence I have without my husband's support. I think men have a right to read about this as well. I have seen father's on here and I really don't think that they are getting their "jollies" out of reading our posts. I think by excluding men on certain forums will be excluding their wives too.

Sonia
Proud Mommy to Martie 4/6/03

[luvbeinmama]

I have to say I disagree on this one. Personally, I never posted about the one risque post, but I totally support Flagger on this one. He stayed out of the original post, and only posted to say thanks because reading it helped him and Ms. Flagger, which I thought totally appropriate. There is no way to keep any part of this public board moms only or dads only, and I think it would only hurt things around here. Let's not start segregating moms & dads.

[jojo2324]

I dislike the idea. I think to exclude men (and exclusion would be impossible on a public website) from discussions where BFing, periods, sex lives, whatever, are topics, would only continue the cycle of thinking that "men don't understand." Maybe they don't, maybe they never will. But not having access to those conversations is a guarantee that there is no CHANCE for them to understand. Perhaps a private forum, set up independently from this site, would be the answer.

And, as far as I see it, the Daddy forum would be pretty empty.

[celfsh]

I have to say I'm not a fan of this idea either. If there is a need for members to discuss things of a more "intimate" nature--thus requiring a private forum--then I think there are other, more appropriate, venues (such as Yahoo groups) for doing so.

Just my 2 cents...

celeste
mom to olivia 9/25/02

[Rachels]

I've thought about this some more, and now I'm going to eat crow and say that I actually don't think this is the answer. I DO believe that men's groups and women's groups can be quite valuable by their nature, so it's not that I don't think there's ever a place for them. But on reflection, I don't actually think that's the issue here. I wasn't involved in the Mommy Fit debacle and didn't read it all before things blew up, but my sense is that the problem isn't about having other people read what is written, it's in having them respond in ways that are attacking or hurtful or vicious. I think that the idea for separate forums probably arose out of what has become more than a murmur of unease-- a sense that it has gotten less safe to post intimacies and fears and weaknesses, because sometimes when people do that lately, they get attacked. So it's a larger issue than separate forums can address. That's why I think that separate forums aren't the answer. (And I agree that it would be a logistical problem for Alan and Denise.)

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[stillplayswithbarbies]

My suggestion wasn't made in order to keep others from reading, or even to lock them out of posting. I guess I was just looking for a way to help people realize when they are about to make a social gaffe.

I used the MommyFit as an example, but what really prompted me to think about this is some things that were said in the Bitching Forum. It seems that some people feel that women need or want to be able to support other women sometimes without a man stepping into it. Not all the time, of course, because men have a different perspective and sometimes that is valuable. But sometimes women just want to talk with other women, and usually that becomes apparent from the tone of the thread, or the nature of the discussion.

But if it was in a forum that said "For women to support each other", then it would be clear and there would be no social gaffe happening. Unless someone was deliberately being rude.

I assume the same would go for men as well. Maybe if they had their own space, more would post here. I see a few in the stroller forum now and then.

I hate what is happening to the boards. I hate that people have stopped posting. I hate that the friendly tone is gone and that some people just seem to be gunnin' for a fight.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[cinrein]

Karen,

I really hate what's happening too. It's sad. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I don't know that creating separate forums is the answer.

When I come across something that rubs me the wrong way, I usually ingore it and move on. My first assumption is that I probably read it in a way that the poster did not intend, or it came off in a way the poster did not intend. It does seem like people are gunning for a fight and frankly I'm choosing my words very carefully when I post.

Thanks for trying to fix what's happening. :)


Cindy and Anna 2/11/03

[lisams]

It is sad that people have left or stopped posting just because of a few people. I for one am not going to let these few scare me off or make me post any less. I just ignore the posts that are power trips or button pushing - they know who they are. I feel bad they need to use this forum to make them feel all big and mighty. They would get so much more support if they treated others the way they wish to be treated. It's that simple.

Lisa

[sntm]

whew. wasn't going to comment, but...

Hypothetically, I like the idea of a mommy's forum and daddy's forum. I know the daddy's forum wouldn't get as much use, but maybe it would also encourage some men to post more. They wouldn't feel like their voices were getting lost amongst a gaggle of women.

There are issues, very few issues, that I would like to share only with women. I've realized now, sadly, that over the internet this is impossible. I've always been fairly trusting/naive that other people would respect when someone asks for privacy -- it's why I always railed against HIPAA! -- but in reality it just doesn't happen. I was the one who originally posted in the mommy fit "debacle" and thought that labeling it "mom's only" would be enough. I know I would never have intruded on a "dad's only" post, but that's me.

The kicker is that I've always been pretty open about just about everything with everybody. I work with mostly men and have a lot of male friends and we discuss everything, including sex, and bowel habits, and money, etc. I welcome the male point of view, even though the attitudes can be very very different (why do men always want to fix everything? sometimes women just want to commisserate)

This was just ONE little thing that I wanted to discuss just with women, and since I had NO female friends with babies at that time (heather (heva) hadn't delivered), I had no IRL people to discuss this with. I would not have posted in the first place if I thought that men would actually ignored my request and read it anyway. I'm sure there are a lot of men who have questions about sensitive issues and whenever possible (whenever I feel comfortable doing so) I want to be there to discuss those, but in this instance I did not feel comfortable doing so. The end result is that I would NEVER post about those sorts of things again. So now EVERONE (me, other women, men) loses out.

I agree that this forum shouldn't have to be everything to all people, but I feel/felt a strong bond with a lot of the people here and frankly I don't have the time to grow these bonds elsewhere. Or even to check another message board. This one eats up plenty of time already! And the boards certainly have grown beyond where they started -- maybe half of my posts are about consumer issues but the rest are about life issues. Most of other users' posts are the same.

Sigh. So, once bitten, twice shy. The rose-colored glasses are off. Any more cliches?

I would be just as wary of posting in a mommy's only forum about sensitive issues as I would be in the other forums. And for when I just need support and not advice? Well, I guess I can take my chances in the "big boards" and will hope that people respect that.


shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03

[flagger]

>>>But if it was in a forum that said "For women to support each other"<<<

Which is exactly the point I originally tried to make. My MIL wouldn't be welcome in such a forum at least when a topic of NIP came up. Not only is she against NIP, she cannot stand the fact that Ms. Flagger even nurses our child. How about people who are not even mommies yet? Would they be welcome or should there be a separate forum for them as well? How about for IVF mommies or old school parenting styles, Capricorn babies and on and on and on? It would just further splinter the group.

I do find it interesting and demonstrative that though I am not the only one to disagree with this idea, I am the only one who was challenged about my disagreement.

>>>...a sense that it has gotten less safe to post intimacies and fears and weaknesses, because sometimes when people do that lately, they get attacked.<<<

In some ways it is all about perception. If someone questions an idea or post, someone can take it as being personally attacked when the only thing "attacked" was the idea itself and not the person who posted it. There are several instances when someone posts about wanting to giving up nursing and starts asking about formula when someone will chime in "How could you even think of trying formula?" or something to that effect when the only thing they wanted to hear about was formula in the first place and not be told to keep on nursing even if it made them miserable.

As far any other posts for mom's only. A quick check of the thread in question only shows mom's (and a few mom's to be) were the only people who responded. You cannot post something on a public website and then say who can and who cannot read it. It becomes in the public domain. And do you honestly think that if I posted something that said Men Only, women do not read, there would be zero women who read it?

The fact remains that you should never post something on the internet that you wouldn't say in person. You have no idea who is responding or if what they say is true. I have no way if someone says they are an obstetrician or pediatrician if they really are. I have no way of knowing if someone who says they have a PhD. really does.

Sometimes you just have to leave your emotions at the door or on the keyboard and put on some thick skin. Words on a computer screen convey no emotion like the spoken word or being able to read body language along with inflection to really understand what someone means or says.

How would you like to find out if there were posts made about you by name in a forum that you had no access to and could not defend yourself? It has happened to me and, because of certain friends, what was said was passed on to me. Not a thing you can do about it, but it still doesn't make you pleased to find out that it had happened. It certainly could happen here in a mommy or daddy only forum.

[Rachels]

"I do find it interesting and demonstrative that though I am not the only one to disagree with this idea, I am the only one who was challenged about my disagreement."

Again, I don't think it's just the disagreement that people are responding to. I don't think you always make a distinction between attacking an idea and attacking a person. That has started to have a cumulative effect. There are times that I see you post an idea that I might not agree with, and it doesn't bug me at all-- much like happens with many people when we're of different minds about something. But when you come on like gangbusters and name-call and jab and put specific people down and categorize into the good people and the bad, it is hard to read it just as a differing idea. I'm not clear if you really don't see that or have any awareness of when you do it.

I do think you had some good points here, and I don't blame you for not wanting to be left out. But I also understand the desire for some assurance that when people post sensitive things, you'll be careful how you say what you say.


-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[flagger]

> But I also understand the
>desire for some assurance that when people post sensitive
>things, you'll be careful how you say what you say.

So this becomes "we want a forum that keeps Flagger out". Fine, you want that. Consider it done. I have my own forum and my old child to worry about and not worry about hurting someone's feelings. It works both ways and I can point to threads where I have posted and been attacked with no thought or choice of words. One member did it and even got rated for it.

I will not choose my words to suit someone's feelings. I speak my mind how I see fit as does everyone else. Nowhere in the last thread locked was the person questioned by me for NIP. This is popular idea for a very few. The vast majority posting in this thread thinks it is a BAD IDEA to have separate forums.

I said it before and will say it again. It is about control and wanting to squash ideas. Refusing to see that there is always another POV even if it is unpopular. If you don't like what is posted, ignore it and move on. No one forces anyone to read a thread. No one forces anyone to respond. There is a big difference between attacking someone's ideas and attacking someone personally. I am not sure you and others can see the difference. I sure can.

[lisams]

Yes! A good example (and I'm only bringing this up for example - don't want to start another debate) is the back to sleep posting you made many months ago. If I remember right, you were upset with the back to sleep campaign and mentioned them being the Back To Sleep Nazis. Now I can only guess that the reason you got a different reaction than the many other people here who have also mentioned they put their babies to sleep on their tummy is the way you came across. I mean, you kind of got a strong reaction because your original post was pretty strong, KWIM? I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing, I'm just saying that you shouldn't be too surprised at people's reaction. I sure hope you don't think people are picking on you.

Lisa

[Rachels]

Well, picking is NOT my intent, and I didn't bring this whole thing up to begin with. I'm trying to respond to your confusion about why you keep being called to task for things. That's all.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[flagger]

>If I remember right, you were upset with the back to sleep campaign and mentioned them being the Back To Sleep Nazis. Now I can only guess that
>the reason you got a different reaction than the many other
>people here who have also mentioned they put their babies to
>sleep on their tummy is the way you came across. I mean, you
>kind of got a strong reaction because your original post was
>pretty strong, KWIM? I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad
>thing, I'm just saying that you shouldn't be too surprised at
>people's reaction.

No it would be like venting against XXX Company and having someone who strongly believes in that company and coming to defend them. It was not a vent against a certain member. It was a vent against someone outside of the community who chose to send an unwanted literature by email because of a picture of Cocoa sleeping on her tummy they had seen on the website. Big difference between then that and the sorts of things said against me personally by participants in that thread. By the way, at five months + my daughter sleeps great through the night on her tummy. All that sleep training we have done has been a good thing for all three of us. I certainly feel vindicated in my "old school" style of parenting.

When I posted about the positive BF experience Ms. Flagger and Cocoa were having, someone later remarked that I was bragging. It is a double standard and you know it. Don't post something and not expect a response. Don't then get upset if it is not the response you wanted or the support you needed. The personal attacks and trashing of character comes both from male and female members. It is not just localized to one sex or the other. In fact it was a female who not only made a personal attack against me but did it against Ms. Flagger as well. This coward who couldn't respond on the issues chose instead to make comments based on personal appearance.

[flagger]

>Well, picking is NOT my intent, and I didn't bring this whole
>thing up to begin with. I'm trying to respond to your
>confusion about why you keep being called to task for things.
>That's all.

This is a moot point anyway for you as far as I can see, because you ate crow and said this was a bad idea. So why bother to even keep responding? There are certainly others in this thread who also think it is a bad idea as well.

[sntm]

ugh. just for the record (and then i swear i will stop even reading this post),

1. i would never read something marked "dads only." again, maybe that is just me, but i feel that would be disrespectful. and maybe i overreacted to flagger's posting that he had read it, but to me that was almost worse than some stranger because i "knew" him and he "knew" me, and i would not have expected that from someone i know and am friendly with. it's like when my white coat was stolen from the icu and the most hurtful thing (next to loss of an expensive stethoscope) was that it had to be somebody i knew because no random person was allowed back there. of course, that story could all be part of my clever ruse to convince you that i really am a doctor...(weak attempt at humor.)

2. i agree that reactions to things that flagger has posted have been harsher on average than responses to other people. but i also think that the tone of the original posts tends to get at people more. i don't think it is because he is male, unless the fact that he is male leads him to post in a different style (the whole men are from mars argument). i can think of one response i made that i regret, but honestly, it was because i thought he was joking in the original post. for what it's worth, i am sorry for that, though.

3. i think we all need to take our own advice. we need to stop explaining ourselves (me too, and i will stop after this). we all need to ignore things and move on. we need to stop taking things so personally (and that goes for everyone!) we all need to be respectful of other people. we need to consider people's feelings when we post and not confuse honesty with discourtesy. we need to stop trying to get the last word. we need to stop accusing others of things we ourselves do. man, i feel like i'm writing the mission statement from jerry maguire.

okay. i'm going to go nurse my insomnia with some productive work. i really hope that something i've said will mean something to someone.




shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03

[lisams]

To be totally honest, I really don't know what you're talking about (the BFing/personal appearance part) - I must have missed that. I respect your parenting style and am glad it works for you (I'm a big fan of "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" :)). I'm sorry you feel there is a double standard - whether there is or not appears to be a personal view of words exchanged. I'm sorry you have been hurt.

Lisa

PS Where's that cute avatar of Cocoa? I miss that cute smile!

[houseof3boys]

Come on you guys...it's happening AGAIN.

Let's stop this thread before this continues and continues and continues.

No male/female forums since that would be so bogus anyway. Shannon is a bigger woman than I because I would read it in a heartbeat if it said "No women allowed". Let's not post to something just to be hurtful and try to force your opinion down everyone's throat. No more know-it-all attitudes. How many more people need to leave the boards or go on hiatus before we realize that it is this kind of thread that does it? What happened to the peaceful happy place we all remember and long for again?

Geez. White flag is coming out now (with some type of ceremonial music playing). :)

[flagger]

It all comes down to the differences between men and women and how they communicate and how they perceive what is said or in this case written:

A man cooks dinner for a women and she asks, "Where did you buy the meat?" and he says, "Bob's butcher shop".

A women cooks dinner for a man and he asks, "Where did you buy the meat?" and she says, "Why, what is wrong with it?"

[ddmarsh]

I agree with something Rachel has said previously - I find this to be more of a personality issue than one of gender.

I personally could care less whether or not there would be a mommy/daddy only forum and for the life of me cannot imagine why you would care or have even the most remote interest in reading anything involving female issues. It would seem, as you referenced above, that you would have better things to do with your time.

[C99]

I don't believe in this case it's a difference of how men and women communicate. It really is your posting style. I feel somewhat qualified to say this because when I first participated in online communities (in 1998, so obviously not this particular one), I had a very similar posting style. I liked to debate and I liked to poke holes in people's arguments, but I've since learned that there are ways to do this without getting everyone's knickers in a twist. It's possible to be direct without going on the attack. That's all I wanted to say.

[alandenisefields]

We appreciate the suggestion, but as folks have noted, it is not practical for us to set up mom and dad only boards. There would be no way to verify the gender of the poster; we agree there are different styles of communcation, but setting up separate boards is probably not the realistic solution!

Thanks,
Alan & Denise
authors