Any suggestions for sleep issues?

[nigele]

I am really struggling to write this as I was up 6 times with 4 1/2 month old DS last night and he woke for good at 5:00 - ugh! He has been doing this for weeks. He also takes VERY short naps - 20 or 30 minutes at a time. He has had some congestion and weird symptoms at night and our ped is trying to find the cause - she told me not to start any sleep programs until she has ruled out sleep apnea but once he is cleared she told me the best way to get him to sleep is to let him CIO. We actually see a specialist today to determine whether or not he needs to have a sleep study done. Anyway, I never thought I would do this but if the doctor clears him for sleep apnea, I am going to try CIO. It breaks my heart but I cannot function on this little amount of sleep. Now for my question: since he has had these health issues, I wanted him close to me at night so he has been sleeping in my bed. Each time he wakes, I nurse him to calm him down and most times it gets him right back to sleep. The minute I remove my nipple, he frantically roots and wakes up until I give it back to him. I feel terrible knowing that he is now accustomed to nursing back to sleep all night and if I allow him to CIO, I feel he will have a much harder time. Can anybody give me any advice? Also, any tips or methods for CIO that you can recommend would be great.

TIA!

[Rachels]

Not a lot of suggestions, but LOTS of empthy. Abby has been doing the same thing for 3 months. Her tummy seems to hurt at night, and she just can't stay asleep. I feel like I'm dying, but I can't bring myself to let her cry. Have you read *The No Cry Sleep Solution*? That has some good ideas, and helped me at least get my nipple back. We also started offering a pacifier, which helps.

Tell me about your visit with the specialist! What kind of specialist did you see?

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[jojo2324]

Lisa, I am going through the exact same thing right now!! I am going batty! To compound it, we just moved him to his crib in his own room (as opposed to sleeping with us) so to have to trudge down the hall 3-5 times a night makes it feel even worse. Usually I just bring him back to bed. But he still is waking up it seems every hour. And same thing with my nipple. Even when he is sleeping, when I just try to put my boob back into my bra he wakes up. It's not like he's even feeding! He just wants the contact I guess. He barely sleeps during the day and I am just getting really really close to the end of my rope. I thought that we were on the right track a few weeks ago, but that bubble seems to have burst.

I am trying to figure out what is going on. I just started a new job which keeps me away a little longer than my previous one, but I only work three days a week, so I don't think it's marathon nursing to make up for the time I'm gone. I don't think he's teething: he has no fever, no rash, and I don't see anything on his gums. I don't think his age indicates time for a growth spurt...The next one is 6 months, right? I actually thought maybe I was pregnant!! AACK! It seems like my milk supply is dwindling and every time he nurses lately he makes these weird grunts, so maybe the taste of it changed, both signs of pregnancy. Also, I've been dropping stuff all over the place, something I never do (but did when I was pregnant with DS). I made DH wake up this morning and run to the pharmacy to get a test, but thank goodness, only one line!

We've been doing CIO, which I really don't like. Our ped recommended it as well, but she termed it getting on a routine, letting him self-soothe, etc. Honestly, I just haven't had the time to read all of the books. I have 'em all, just no time. And the instant I open one I pass out. (I have about 3 instants a day in which to do this.) I have to say, it was working for a while, but in the last two weeks, he's been keeping it up. I'll go in and say mommy loves you, time for bed, rub his belly, etc but he'll go for 45 minutes sometimes! But I have to tell you, as soon as he hears me on the stairs, he quiets right down. Little bugger, my foot he doesn't cry for me to come running. :)

Don't know if I offered anything, but I'm right there with you! let me know how it goes.

[Melanie]

Definitely get the "No Cry Sleep Solution."

We also co-sleep, but it is geared towards a variety of sleeping arrangements. In this book they tell you to make a log of all the times you wake up the first night. It was hard to do, but worth it to show how far we've come. The first night Jonah woke up 8 times. Now, without trying as hard as I should and finishing the book, we're at about 3 times.

(Edited to try to be more helpful now that a squirmy 1 year old isn't here.)

Mommy to Jonah

[Annette_C]

Lisa,
I feel for you since we've been going through the exact same thing with Sabrina!
From all the responses, I see that our kids are all around the same age. Is it a coincidence that they are going through this stage exactly the same way? I don't think so...
Anyway, if you'd like to read the advice I got on this subject, you can do so by clicking on "Happiest Mom on the Block" topic that is only a few rows down on the "Lounge" page. Here's the link...
http://www.windsorpeak.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=290&forum=DCForumID30
Alexa and Beth both suggested reading the "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" book and, even though it's only been a few days, we're starting to see results.
We understood from the book that DD was taking short naps during the day because she was overtired. We were also putting her to bed too late (around 9) and that made her more tired.
She's now on a routine, it's not perfected yet, but it's a start. In fact, she's napping better during the day and sleeping longer at night. She's still waking up a couple of times during the night but it's not as bad as before and she goes right back to sleep.
The thing DH and I like about this book is that we don't have to use the CIO method.
I hope it will get better for you and Tommy (and all of us!).
Keep us posted
Annette :)
SAHM to Sabrina 6/24/02

[kathsmom]

Lisa,

I am so sorry to hear about your bad night! Has Thomas's congestion cleared up any? What did the specialist say? I have been thinking of you a lot lately. My DS went to the ped yesterday for his 2 month checkup and I asked her about the continued congestion that he has had since he was about 2 weeks old. She said she thought it was still newborn congestion, but that I could try infant decongestant. I asked her if it might be reflux, but she said that with the amount of weight he had gained that she very seriously doubted it could be reflux. When did Thomas start getting congested? What does the ped say about it being reflux?

I can't recommend any books, because we have been on no schedule, so I was glad to see Annette's post about the program she is trying with Sabrina. To be honest, I hold DS a lot at night, because I hear him having so much trouble breathing at times, but at times it seems to be getting better.

Please let us know what is going on! We'll be thinking of you, your DS, and your DH.

Toni - mom to Katherine (5/19/96) and Andrew (9/23/02)

[nigele]

Thanks for all of your replies. We saw a pulmonologist (lungs/breathing issues) yesterday at the children's hospital. I was so nervous my I felt like I was going to pass out! Anyway, the doctor believes it is either sleep apnea or reflux and is really leaning toward reflux. Even though DS rarely spits up, she said that reflux can really irritate the nasal passages which explains why he sounds so congested and wakes up aggresively rubbing his nose. He also snores and snorts which might be sleep apnea. We have already had one test for reflux, called an Upper G.I. which was negative but the pulmonologist said that test was not always accurate. She has scheduled Thomas for a sleep study and will also test for reflux at the same time by sticking a thin tube, called a PH probe, up his nose and down into his esophagus. He will have to sleep with the tube in, my poor little guy! The sleep study is scheduled for Jan. 3 - can you believe how long we have to wait?? The did put us on a cancellation list so we're crossing our fingers. The doctor told us the same thing his ped did - don't let him CIO until we resolve this. She wanted me to keep doing what we are doing so they get an accurate picture of what's going on during the sleep study. I am relieved about this and in the meantime, I will start, and stick to, a bedtime routine.

Rachel - I do have "The No Cry Sleep Solution" and have tried the suggestion for removing my nipple but he won't have any of it! I usually give up and just let him continue while I try to at least fall back asleep. Since you told me it worked for you, I tried it last night again and again until it finally worked! I will keep at it and hope to break his habit. I plan to seriously work on the sleep suggestions in this book and hopefully he will respond to them - we'll see.

Thanks again!

[daisymommy]

Yeah right "it can't be reflux"! Josh has been gaining about a pound a week since he was two weeks old and now weighs about 15 lbs. (or more since we haven't been to the Ped. recently). He is in the 90%tile for his weight/age--adn he is only 3 months old. He DOES however have a bad case of reflux! He already has his own GI specialist that we see every month, is on special formula, and Zantac 3x a day. So as you can see, weight is not always a determining factor!

Also, what is it with all of our babies lately? Josh would go to bed and sleep 6 hours straight, wake up to feed, go back to sleep for 4 hrs, eat, then go back to sleep for another 3 hrs. Now for the last two weeks he has been waking up every two hrs! I'm bumping into everything too Joanne, out of sheer exhasution!

[Rachels]

I know how hard it is! Abigail thought I was absolutely crazy when I first started trying to get my nipple away from her. I kept at it for what felt like a VERY long time. Now she will often just roll over and doze off. If she doesn't, I know she still needs to nurse. Sometimes if she's just nibbling but not yet sleeping, I can substitute a pacifier and get back to sleep myself.

As for the reflux thing, Abby has that, too, and she almost never spits up. She does grab wildly at her nose when she wakes up-- interesting, I never knew that was related. We had taken her off Zantac but our ped yesterday said to put her back on it. We'll see how it goes.

Sigh. It's so exhausting!

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[nigele]

Rachel,

If it turns out DS has reflux, they will presribe Zantac for him as well. Have you noticed any problems or side effects?

Thanks.

[nigele]

BTW, Joanne, how did your photo turn out with the pimple and the scratch?!? Ours went pretty well - the photographer managed to hide both and tried a soft filter to camouflage them! I'll try to attach a pic when I have more time...

[Shirale]

With all the benfits to nursing, sleeping through the night is not one of them, unfortunately! I have an older baby (almost 1) but I just wanted to let you guys know that we went through the same thing, and in our case- it got much worse right before it began to get much better! I could never let Amira CIO b/c she just got totally hysterical and threw up...so we never really did any sleep program. I was so exhasuted most of the time (until she was about 7 months) that I just felt like I had no personality and was a meanie to poor DH. Once Amira started sitting up, for some reason, and then crawling, she started sleping much better. Now, she goes to bed a 8:30, wakes up once at 11:30 and I give her her passie and she goes back to sleep, and then at 6 for a bbottle, then sleeps til 8:30. She also takes 2 one hour naps. This from a kid who slept and hour and a 1/2 at a time from 3 months- 7 months. That said- I also found that since DH and I help her and responded when she needed, she is really independant now! She plays on her own for 1/2 hour at a time, and will sometimes bring me something so play with, but mostly doesn't even acknowlage me (unless I leave!)So- I know this isn't much in the way of advice right now- but try to remember that very very soon it will stop, and they do eventually sleep and they do eventually stop needing to nurse every hour through the night (Amira did that for a long time)and then you will wake up one morning and remember what it feels like to be a normal human being!! My husabdn is amazed at the change in my personality!!! :-)

[jojo2324]

I wish people understood that having a baby isn't all googles and laughs and cute butts. I went into work the other day and looked pretty haggard. Granted I had gotten home the night before at midnight (I work in a restaurant) as it had been a *very* busy night and now I was back there again at noon to do a double. Anyway, my boss was all, "Joanne, you gotta look chipper! What's your problem? You don't look so happy!" Meanwhile, he had finished at midnight and headed right out to the bars until 5:30. Ha! I said very calmly, trying so hard not to lose it because I just started this job and really I didn't have the energy to lose it in the first place, "I don't think you realize, but I have a 4-month old baby at home who demands my every second. I was up at 5:30 too, but not because I wanted to be." He immediately apologized and looked really puzzled, but if it gets him off my back about not looking chipper, then fine! Sorry, I think I am coming down with something and I am in a nasty mood. My ears are all clogged and the daily whining from DS has begun! Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!

[twins r fun]

Lisa,

We did 3 sleep studies between our twins (they were younger than your son, though). We had them both on Zantac and Reglan for reflux for awhile. And they were both on monitors for weeks/months for apnea. Let me know if you have any questions! BTW, everything is resolved now and has been for awhile. Good luck to you and post if I can help with anything.

Nicole

[kathsmom]

Amy,

Did Josh have the congestion too? If so, how long did he have it before the ped. recommended you see a specialist? Andrew just always sounds so stuffy, especially when he first wakes up. He rubs his nose and snorts. He also sneezes a lot. I don't know if I should take him to my family doctor for a second opinion or not. Right now, I am holding him (and typing with one hand!) and he is almost upright and taking his bottle and his breathing sounds fine. At other times, it almost sounds like he has the hardest time catchhing his breath.

I am just perplexed at this point about what to do.

Toni - mom to Katherine (5/19/96) and Andrew (9/23/02)

[nigele]

Nicole,

I do have some questions for you - thank you for offering to help. I thought about a bunch of questions after I left the doctor's office.

1) How old are your babies now?
2) How old were they when their problems began? How old when they resolved?
3) Did you co-sleep at the time and if so, did they let you co-sleep during the sleep study?
4) Did you have the PH Probe done? Thomas will have his put in at 2:00 p.m. but the sleep study does not start until 8:00 p.m. I really meant to ask the doctor why it has to be in so far ahead of time!
5) Did your sleep studies show sleep apnea (just wondering why they were on monitors for a while.)

Thanks again!!

[nigele]

I got an e-mail today from Bed, Bath & Beyond titled "The Gift of Sleep." They were hawking some new pillow. I was tempted to write back to them to tell them where they could shove the pillow but fortunately, my little monkey was sitting on my lap and was demanding attention! :-)

It drives me CRAZY when people ask if DS is sleeping throught the night, or when somebody tells me their baby started sleeping through the night at 6 weeks! (I think I may have said this before in another post, but I can't keep track of anything in this sleepy fog!)

[Melanie]

Ooh I hate that question, too! It's like they think the more your baby sleeps the better parent you are. Just say "yes," it'll shut them up.


Mommy to Jonah

[Rachels]

Hi. No, she did just fine on Zantac. The only issue we had was that she HATED it at first. She would cry and refuse to open her mouth. I found out that the liquid Zantac was designed originally to go through an NG tube-- it was never meant to be taken orally, so babies were never supposed to have to taste it. I tasted it myself, and it's truly horrible. We finally found a pharmacist who had a recipe for making a Zantac suspension out of crushed pills, rather than using the pre-made liquid. We flavored it with bubble gum. Problem solved.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Rachels]

Oh, Shira, you do a tired mom's heart good...There is much to be said for a reason to hope.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[twins r fun]

Hi Lisa,

Glad to help if I can. First let me say that it really sucks that you have to wait until Jan to get the sleep study done. I hate how specialists are so overbooked-I mean by the time you're to the point of seeing a specialist there is already a problem and you shouldn't have to wait months to get it checked out. We've had these kind of delays a few times now and it's maddening.

Anyway, to your questions...My babies are just over a year now. They were premature and stayed in the NICU so they were well monitored and their problems were discovered pretty early. We had the sleep studies done at about 1 month. They were trying to determine the severity of their apnea and whether it was related to reflux. Caleb was still in the NICU when his sleep study was done and Jacob had to be admitted to the pediatric ward to have his done since we already had him home. Sounds like yours is being done at the house-I don't know what to tell you about the cosleeping, but it would seem to me he'd have to cosleep if that's what he's used to. Jacob was put on a monitor after the sleep study because it did show episodes of apnea-while feeding and sleeeping. Caleb's showed apnea and irregular breathing, but he was already going to be on a monitor anyway because he needed supplemental oxygen. Jacob was diagnosed with reflux and prescribed Zantac and Reglan, positional changes during and after feeding, and the monitor. We kept the monitor for about a month and then he was no longer showing symptoms of apnea and the monitor hadn't gone off in a long time so we were given permission to discontinue it. We continued with the meds until about 4 months and then he wasn't really showing signs of reflux so we stopped that too. He's been fine ever since. He's never really had any sleep issues related to any of this.

Caleb was not diagnosed with reflux after the sleep study. However once we got him home, his reflux symptoms were worse than Jacob's so I kept talking to the doctors. Finally the pulmonologist watched him drink a bottle and agreed he did have reflux-Zantac and Reglan until about 6 months. The pulmonologist was overly cautious (I think) and said he wouldn't be ready to come off until over a year and reccomended against even trying it. She was also going to keep him on oxygen until last April-my husband and I decided he could be taken off in January. We used his monitor for apnea for 3 months. He did have some sleep issues related to reflux-hard to get down, would wake up uncomfortable, very noisy breathing. That all resolved by about 3-4 months and we only saw reflux symptoms during feedings. The medicine really seemed to help him.

Here's some random thoughts on the sleep studies. The Ph probe isn't too bad once they get it in, but you probably won't enjoy watching them place it and neither will your son. My boys didn't seem bothered by it after it was in place, but they were young and had had a great deal of stuff done to them already. I would think a 6 month old would find it more bothersome. Maybe the doctor wants the probe in early because he's actually checking the Ph levels at that time-not just while your son is sleeping. With our studies we had to record the times in a log of when they ate, slept, got their diaper changed, etc. to see how these things were affecting their breathing and Ph. I hate to tell you this, but we found the sleep study to be inprecise and even inaccurate. They had electrodes measuring heart rate and a pulse ox mesuring oxygen saturation. The leads were constantly coming loose and messing up the readings. Jacob had one huge episode of apnea and it wasn't saved on the monitor so they couldn't go back and look at it. And the thing that bothered me most was that Jacob's Ph reading was LESS acidic than Caleb's, yet he was the one diagnosed with reflux. (The studies were read by two different doctors becasue they were in two different hospitals.) We were told reflux can cause apnea because the acid coming up irritates a muscle in the esophogus and causes it to constrict (or something like that-I've forgotten all the terminology now). That's what they decided was happening with our boys. If Thomas is diagnosed with reflux and you can get him on medication, that should really help with the sleep issues. Did you get bad heartburn while pregnant? I did and there was no way I could sleep through it-I'm sure it's the same for a baby and that nursing or taking a bottle helps with the acid. I wonder why your doctor won't just try him on the medicine since (s)he thinks that may be the problem and you can't get a sleep study done for over a month. Just my opinion, but maybe you should push to try the medicine and see if it helps. Then still do the sleep study because you'd want to know about the apnea.

Sorry so long-I just have a lot of information in my head that just kept coming!

Nicole

[nigele]

Nicole,

Thanks for taking so much time to help me - I really appreciate it. I'm sorry your babies had such trouble - it sounds like your family went through a nightmare.

I was thinking exactly the same - why not try the meds since the sleep study is so far away? After the sleep study is done (it will be done in the hospital, not at home) they told me it would take two weeks for the results. That means almost two more months until I get an answer. It is so frustrating! I also wonder if the acid could start to affect his esophagus permanently since he will have had this problem over three months before being treated. I seem to remember hearing that this can happen to adults with untreated reflux. I do plan to call the pulmonologist to ask.

I did not know that reflux could cause apnea - makes sense, though. It also makes sense the way you explained the PH probe might be going in so early so they can monitor him before sleep. That makes me feel better - I didn't know if they were just doing it early for their convenience. Thomas had a test at the ENT, I can't remember the name of it, but basically the ENT inserted a large tube with a camera on the end into Thomas's nose and down his throat to check for swollen adenoid glands. The test was negative. It was a horrible experience. The baby was screaming and crying like never before and my husband and I were shocked to watch the whole thing. I am not looking forward to the PH probe but the doctor assured me that it is much smaller than the other thing and he would not be as uncomfortable.