Very nervous about 6-month vaccines

[Rachels]

We are selectively vaccinating Abigail (Hib and DTaP only at this point), and her next round is scheduled for Friday. I'm feeling really nervous. She got small fevers and was very fussy at 2 months and 4 months, but I've heard that the 6-month shots are worse. What were your experiences? Is there anything I should look out for or do? I will give her Tylenol ahead of time, which seemed to help some for the 4-month round.

Also, I'm just a total wreck when somebody is sticking needles into my baby. I think I got kind of traumatized by her first week, when she had about 15 bloodtests for jaundice. I feel horribly anxious all day, cry while she's getting the shots...I'm completely convinced that the nurse thinks I'm a big wuss and leaves the room rolling her eyes at my pathetic mom constitution. What do you think?

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Shirale]

Definitly give her tylenol 1/2 hour before the shots- it makes a difference! Alos, the calmer you are the calmer Abigail will be, and I found with Amira that she screamed and then as soon as I picked her up she stopped totally...if Abigail takes a passifier that also sometimes helps! My Dr. (thankfully!) never gives more than 2 shots at one visit (I think b/c of some new study re: autism and shots) so 2 shots are pretty ok to handle...I think it pains us really more than them! Good luck to both of you!!

[cara1]

Why are you selectively vaccinating?

[Rachels]

Several reasons. Mainly, the research seems very new and poorly conducted about vaccine safety, both in terms of specific vaccines and in terms of administering multiple vaccines at once. So I have questions about that. I also have a really supportive pediatrician who herself chose to selectively vaccinate her child. She told me that the AAP uses its current recommended schedule in part because people are really good about bringing their babies in for checkups and not so good about bringing their teenagers in. Thus, lots of shots are given to babies when doctors can be reasonably certain that they'll come in. It's not reflective of what shots a baby actually NEEDS during infancy. That, to me, is not a very compelling reason to give an infant a vaccine. If there's something she needs when she's 13, we'll do it then. As far as these particular shots go, the safety on the DTaP is less scary to me than the danger of the diseases in question; same thing with Hib. We're not doing polio right now because there's just no polio in this country. There hasn't been in nearly 30 years, and the last known cases were caused by the oral vaccine. Again, if our circumstances change (for example, international travel), or when Abigail is older, we might do that one. We're not doing the Prevnar now because it's brand new. There's very limited safety data. I just want to give it some time to be sure it's a safe vaccine. As recently as 1999, the vaccines babies were given routinely involved vastly more mercury than the EPA identified as safe. They seem to have fixed that now, but I just feel uncomfortable with the notion that we know everything we need to know about vaccine safety. I think it's a personal choice, but the choice we're most comfortable with is to do fewer vaccines, and fewer at a time.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Melanie]

We're doing the same (same 2 vaccines as well). The DTaP still makes me nervous since it's combo, but as you probably know they are not all offered separately in the US. I must have held my breath the entire weekend after Ds got that one. We also don't allow both the HiB and DTaP at the same time. I think we waited a month between them. Make sure you ask to see the vial or that it's a single-dose vial (have you read the latest Mothering? It states that the multi-dose vials still contain the thermisol AND that the old vials were never recalled). I asked our ped. with the first one to make sure it didn't have thermisol in it, but now I'm thinking I should have checked myself since I read about the multi-dose thing. They always just bring in the needle.

We're exactly the same about Prevnar! It's tempting b/c there have been cases of meningitis locally, occasionally, but my son is not going to be a "test subject," KWIM? I believe it was released in Feb. 2001 - is that what you found?

Did you skip the Hep. B, too? We did and the nurse at the hospital was dumb-founded. She kind of stuttered and asked the other nurse, "Do they have to sign a release or something?" and the other nurse said, "No, there's only a release if we give the baby the shot."

We had the same run-in with the jaundice and the tests. It was so hard, Dh had to hold him. The worst, for me, was the last one because he didn't cry, just sort of accepted it as life.

Mommy to Jonah

[cara1]

I understand it's a personal choice, but I did want to mention at least one story...A friend has her DS in a day care center where many of the parents are international. One of these other kids went to India w/ his parents. He returned, but seemed sick. All was kept hush-hush, but in the end he probably had polio.

Also, have you looked into which ones are required for school entry?

Also, I'm just curious about what your plans are for MMR...

[mamahill]

I opted to vaccinate because of the high number of immigrants in our area and people constantly coming and going internationally. But I asked my doctor about kids whose parents waive all vaccines and how they get into school. She said that they can just claim religious reasons and the school can't force them to get them. So technically, you don't HAVE to get any for school entry.

I found that at Ainsleigh's 6-month shots, instead of looking at the needle or thinking about the pain, I visualized we were driving somewhere and Ainsleigh was screaming for no reason (something she did quite a lot at the time). I found that it helped a ton more than I expected (visualizing did nothing for me during labor - in fact, my "happy place" was with my parent's dog and as soon as I visualized him, I wanted to kill him - yikes!). I just sat their singing to her like I do in the car and while she still cried, I didn't burst into tears like the previous times. The nurse has been good all times (she even teared up herself) and they let me feed her in their lunch room after the shots.

Just remember that you're doing the best thing now and a little discomfort now will hopefully prevent a lot later on! HTH

[Rachels]

Yes, India is one of the few places that still have active polio. My baby is not in daycare, so I don't have that concern. Again, we'll reassess when and if our circumstances change. About MMR, I just don't know yet. The study linking it with autism is a bad study, but I do think the question remains. We probably won't do it at 18 months. My ped is actively searching for a source for a measles-only vaccine since girls don't need mumps and boys don't need rubella and neither needs it before puberty. Europe does measles-only; if we can find it, we'll do that. As for schools, I'm well aware that we can claim exemption if need be. (I'm a pretty compulsive researcher.)

Melanie, everything you said is what I have found, also. I did see the latest Mothering. It scared me silly, especially the stuff about inflammatory bowel disease. Whatever is going on with Abigail's belly is not yet diagnosed, but it freaks me out.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Rachels]

Oh, and yes, we skipped Hep B. It's sexually transmitted! This, for me, falls into the "we'll do it when it's age-appropriate" category.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Momof3Labs]

Rachel,

Actually, Hep B is transmitted by blood and body fluids (which obviously includes, but isn't limited to, sex). I'm not questioning your decision to vaccinate, just wanted to make sure that you had accurate information!

Lori
mommy to Colin Daniel 9/28/02

[Rachels]

Yes, I know. It's just that sex is the most common and by far the most likely source of transmission. Again, it's one of the vaccines we'll probably do eventually, just not during her infancy. But thank you, truly. As far as I'm concerned, any information is good information.

I know it probably seems like Melanie and I and anyone else who doesn't fully vaccinate are pretty far out of the mainstream, but I feel about this like I feel about birth. You should learn all you can about all of your options, and then do what makes you feel safest. I'm good at research, I understand statistics, and with the information I have, this is the choice I've made. If our information changes, so might our choices. This is just what is best for us at this time. I really respect alternate choices, too.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[mommychic]

I completely praise you and respect what your doing. I'm just confused how some are not mandatory. I honestly assumed you had no choice in the matter. Also what if you plan on getting certain vacinations but the baby is exposed to something PRIOR to the vaccine? (Am I getting carried away?)

Also, what if you don't know someone has a disease. We recently found out that two different members of my in-laws (not immediate) family have Hepatitis one C and one B. They are not advertising this, just selective members of the family know of this. So, what happens if a baby is not vacinated and is exposed to something like this. Not even in a family setting, I'm even thinking of in a crowded elevator or waiting on line at the mall. How contagious (sp) is this stuff???

Is this why they don't recommend taking the baby out in public the first month? Or is this a wives tale? My two girlfriends said they couldn't go out for long periods of time or visit crowded homes because the baby didn't have their shots yet.

Rach, I don't think any of us are questioning your judgement. We're just impresed at your knowledge in this issue. Not many people stand up to things like this. If a doctor says something 99% of us just agree with the doctor. It takes a strong person to say NO and go their own way.

Thanks for all the info, I've really learned a lot from this topic.

(Hope all goes well for Abby - I've heard that giving some Tylonal ahead of time helps too)

Lisa

[Rachels]

Thanks, Lisa. Like I said, I'm a compulsive researcher. If you talked to me pre-dissertation, you would swear you were talking to someone else entirely. But as I did my research, I became progressively more appalled at what is routine medical practice in the United States as compared to what the medical literature suggests is appropriate. (There are about ten things that are routinely practiced for birth here that are specifically and clearly recommended against by the World Health Organization, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. 22 countries have better birth outcomes than we do, and every one of them is using considerably less technology.) Anyway, with that as a springboard, I started reading as much as I could about what to do AFTER the birth, and I really revised some of my thoughts about what we wanted to do and not do.

As for whether you have a choice, you always do. It just doesn't often get presented that way. But I have tried hard to remember that I am a consumer. My doctors work for me, and not the other way around. If I know how to educate myself, then I don't need to rely on their knowledge in quite the same way. I don't want to come across wrong-- I have very warm and personal relationships with my healthcare providers and my daughter's, and I'm very grateful to have them. I'm not at all anti-medicine. But I tend to take more of a teamwork approach, and to assume that I am responsible for our health as much as that is possible. Not all doctors love that way of doing things; I'm not the right patient for those doctors, and they're not the right doctors for me. I feel the same way about my work as a therapist. For some people, I'm just the right therapist, and for others, someone else would be a much better choice. But I think CHOOSING (as opposed to falling into something) is important.

As for contagion, I don't know that there's a universal answer. From things that require body fluids, you're in no danger in a crowded elevator. For things like pertussis, though, coughing can do it. That's why I'm making decisions vaccine by vaccine instead of having all or none of them. The taking the baby out the first month thing, though, is largely a wives' tale, especially if you're breastfeeding. If you're nursing, the baby is actually in great shape, because he or she is getting all of your antibodies in force. If you're bottle feeding, I guess I'd be a little more careful at the very beginning.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[hellollama]

I am pretty sure the Prevnar vaccine was released in early 2000. It had been around for about six months (according to my dr) when I was faced with whether to give it to my son who was born in June of 2000. So it is new, but not brand new.

[jojo2324]

Oh no! Now I am completely freaked out! Gannon has been having troubles lately with his BMs and I never even considered a vaccine connection. But now that I think back, it did start around 4 months. I was so opposed to the idea of vaccines and was completely ready to refuse them all. But DH is so obsessive-compulsive and is always going to the doctor. (His mother was actually admitted to a mental hospital for a short duration, partly for these reasons.) He was willing to forgo some of the shots, especially the hepatitis one. But I buckled under the words of my ped and for some reason I got it in my head that, with all of the threats in the world today, it was in our best interest that Gannon be protected from everything. Now I am really pissed at myself because what if I caused this tummy trouble he's been having and it's more serious than constipation? Not that my ped would actually want to do anything about that...But I vented in the Bitching Post, I'll leave that one alone.

FYI, I live in NY. My step-mother vaccinated her first two children (my half brother and sister) and decided to do nothing for my youngest sister. She entered kindergarten this year and faced real opposition in the face of no vaccinations. The school kept see-sawing back and forth on what was truly required while my SM desperately searched online for something that could exempt her philosophically. (She thought just stating religious objections would do the trick, but the district wanted documented and notarized proof of such opposition.) Finally, she gave in because Julia *needed* to go to school. (She had already tried the home school route with Spencer with little success.) Needless to say, Julia was not too keen on those 4" needles and promptly removed them from her legs herself while screaming at the top of her lungs. (Rachel, just something to think about with an already defiant-I-know-more-than-you-ma seventh grader! :))

I guess this illusrates an argument for both sides: On one hand, you wouldn't get much of a fight from an infant. Certainly some screaming, but no self-removal and then subsequent attempts to
re-administer. And it is waaay traumatic for us mamas! On the other hand, Julia only required six (maybe eight) shots total due to her age, a real difference from the 22 (or is it 26?) most babies face nowadays.

Another note. My step-mother decided not to vaccinate Julia because of Spencer. He shows some autistic tendencies and she is convinced that the MMR shot is responsible. Also, he was born in 1990 and I believe (based on what she's told me) there was a "bad" shot that was given to children born that year, so to speak. She has met other kids his age who are just a bit off and she thinks the shot is the reason. Granted, she is not the least flighty woman and I take everything she says with a grain of salt. This is my answer as to why she vaccinated Amelia even though she was born after Spencer's troubles began.

[nohomama]

Rachel,

I wanted to mention something that has helped us most through all of Lola's shots. It just happens that my partner Daniel works within walking distance of our pediatrician's office. Consequently, he's been at all but two of Lola's doctor appointments...both sick and well child visits. Obviously, this isn't an option for everyone and probably won't be of help to you on Friday, but I really think it's been of tremendous help in making vaccinations less traumatic for ALL of us. Lola has two parents to help her cope with a painful experience, and Daniel and I have the support of each other. For Lola's 12 month shots she didn't cry AT ALL (bubbles were the key to this coup) and for her 15 month shots today, she cried (whimpered really) for all of 10 seconds. If you and your husband could ever swing the scheduling gymnastics, I'd really suggest having him there. If not, I think even a friend could help difuse the situation somewhat.

Another thing we've insisted upon is a two shot limit. It means more visits to the doctor and perhaps that as Lola gets older she'll get wise to the whole thing and become fearful, but we'll cross that bridge if we come to it.

As for the selective vaccinations, we're doing that as well. I'd be interested to hear if your successful in finding/obtaining the single vaccines. We tried and ultimately ended up having both the DPT and the MMR. In our situation, as is true with everyone I'm sure, research AND personal experience played a role in our decission making process. While we don't know any families of children who've had adverse reactions to the MMR vaccine, Dan and I both have a friend with Polio. Lola, therefore, got both vaccines. We also had the Prevnar administered at the suggestion of our ped after Lola had three consecutive ear infections. And living in an area with FIVE college campuses where there are at least several cases of Meningitis a year, we thought it prudent to get the Hib as well.

What she hasn't received is either the Hep B or the chicken pox vaccine. We'll reconcider both when Lola is of school age. I have a real problem with the chicken pox vaccine which has not been shown to impart lasting immunity and for which there is no booster. I really think it's a vaccine of convenience created for economic reasons.

When it comes to disease, the world is a SMALL place. With modern transportation illnesses can become an epidemic in the blink of an eye. I admire all the reasearch you've done and wish that everyone would treat the issue of vaccines with such toughtful regard. Our cautionary tale is of Daniel's cousin who lives in Costa Rica with her partner and infant son. He's received no vaccinations and after traveling to Thailand with his parents contracted Pertusis. This was monthes ago and he's still suffering. What's frightening to me though is that they traveled with him while he was sick thus endangered any other person/infant who hadn't been immunized. As I said, I wish everyone would treat the issue with the weight it deserves.

Good luck on Friday.

[Melanie]

I just wanted to add that it depends on your state...you can find a list of state exemptions here: http://www.909shot.com/Issues/state%20exemptions.htm I happen to live in California where you can have a philosophical exemption to vaccines. There's a blue form that public schools (I don't know about private) keep on the children which lists their vaccinations. You flip it over, sign two places and that's that. There is some question as to whether or not you can oppose some and not all of them, so I just signed and didn't include information as to which we did allow.

I'm with Rachel on the fact that your doctors work for YOU. I refuse to be bullied into anything and I am sickened to think that some doctors operate like this. We have a very understanding and supportive pediatrician (two actually), however we interviewed with one who was not. He heard I had Gestational Diabetes and planned to deliver at a birthing center and you would have thought I was a total freak. He launched into a speech that wouldn't end. We went with someone else. At least he was honest. =)

Rachel, please let us know if you find single vaccines somewhere for the multiples. On VAERS ( http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaers/vaers.htm )I found a list of vaccines and their manufacturers, but I don't know if it's any help. Some are listed separately, & right now I can't remember how it worked out but we couldn't get the portions of the DTaP we wanted separately anyhow, but you could get some.

Also, regarding HepB. Our ped. said that another risk is a non-immune breastfeeding mother with *ahem* questionable lifestyle who could contract it and pass it to the baby. Since I'm immune and *hehehe* unquestionable we didn't feel it a risk. However you better believe when Ds was hospitalized briefly for dehydration I was beyond paranoid of everything he wasn't vaccinated for.

We have neighbors who will be traveling to India for an extended visit, soon, and I am really worried about a Polio risk upon their return so that's next on my research list. I hope I find out something good and not that we can't get together for a year or something.



Mommy to Jonah

[KathyO]

>I have a real problem with the chicken pox vaccine
>which has not been shown to impart lasting immunity and for
>which there is no booster. I really think it's a vaccine of
>convenience created for economic reasons.

I used to think so too. Certainly the vaccine manufacturers are right there up front and centre promoting it. But I just finished a project for a researcher on Group A Strep, and found that children who get it at the same time as, or anytime shortly after, they have chickenpox (as is fairly common when they are in day-care and school settings) are at far higher risk of lethal complications. (Lethal as in most are DOA, and most of the rest die in Emerg, and are never stabilized long enough to get them up to ICU. The complications take the form of Streptococcal Toxic Shock Syndrome, or Flesh-Eating Disease.)

The risk of these extreme complications is small, but vaccinating for chickenpox reduces it to zero. Arrgghh... I wasn't going to vaccinate for chickenpox either... Now I have to rethink.... Ah, the wonderful world of relative risks...

KathyO

[egoldber]

Just to add to this, I know several people who have had the misfortune to contract chickenpox as adults (which is not unlikely if you did not have it as a child or were not vaccinated against it.) They are all pretty universal in their desire to have their own children vaccinated for the disease. One person I know was out of work for two months and was on short term disability he was so struck. I guess you could get the vaccine as an adult in that case, but many insurance companies will not pay for it then, whereas they will for children.

I am also curious about something that someone above wrote about girls not needing the mumps vaccine. My oldest sister (who is 10 years older than me and had the disease before there was a widely available mumps vaccine) had it as a baby and my mother still tells horror stories about how awful it was. In fact all of my older siblings had all the "standard" early childhood diseases, and I grew up with my mothers stories of this (including all three of my older siblings having the chickenpox at once). No doubt this has contributed in no small way to my own desire to have Sarah fully vaccinated.

[megsmom]

I decided to vaccinate Meg against the chicken pox because my sisters and I had such a bad experience with it. We all got it at the same time and were 7, 6 and 3 (my poor mom). My sister had chicken pox blisters down her throat (causing some breathing concerns), I had blisters on my eyeballs, and my little sister had really big blisters that caused some nasty scars on her face. I also work in a hospital where I have lots of older patients who come down with very painful cases of shingles. Once you have the chicken pox virus, it lies dormant in your nerves. When people's immune systems become weakened by stress or illness, it can reemerge.

I even vaccinated Meg against the flu this year. I try to change my clothes when I come home a lot of days, but basically have people sneezing, coughing on me all the time during the winter and viruses can persist on surfaces for an extended length of time. My sitter's boy and my friend's daughter were also very ill for 10 days with influenza last year so that was also part of my decision.

I also was wondering about the comment that girls don't need the mumps vaccine as well since I had not heard that before. I guess I had never questioned Meg needing mumps vaccine. My mom had it as a girl and recalls how bad it was and I also had a good friend who lost all of the hearing in one ear after the mumps. The only vaccine that made me particularly nervous was the pertussis vaccine since I had worked with a couple of kids in the schools who weren't right after that vaccine. It's a different vaccine now though than those kids had. I also think another study came out this year stating that the MMR vaccine does not cause autism. I don't have the link right now. but think it would be easy to find on the internet.

Interesting stuff comes up on this board. I enjoy reading everyone's opinion.

Jen
mom to Meghan
born 7/13/01

[Rachels]

I think the mumps thing is because the greatest risks of the disease are reproductive, causing testicular problems (and therefore not at the same risk level for girls). I don't know nearly as much about this as I do about some of the other vaccines, simply because we're a year away from having to consider it. So I haven't researched it as much. I have heard that monovalent vaccines for measles, mumps, and rubella may become available in February. That would be great.

As for chicken pox, I am in total agreement that adults should be vaccinated if they haven't had it. It's dangerous. My husband had it at 35, and it was the most horrible thing imaginable. At one point, his doctor wanted to hospitalize him, but he was just too sick to be moved. Yikes. So I wouldn't hesitate about that. For kids, though, I wonder. It's miserable, but seldom really dangerous unless someone has a compromised immune system. And there is no long-term data about this vaccine, so I worry that all our kids will wind up susceptible to chicken pox as adults because the vaccine wore off and they never got the disease as kids. It's a tough question.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Rachels]

I forgot-- the reason pertussis is less scary now than the old vaccine is because the current one is acellular. And the problem with the MMR studies, whether they say it does or doesn't cause autism, is that the research designs and statistics aren't very good in either case. So we just don't know. This is why the idea of monovalent vaccines is good. They're clearly safer.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[jojo2324]

I too am skeptical about the chicken pox vaccine. I have to agree with Sarah on the economic/convenience factor. I had chicken pox when I was a kid and I've got scars, most notably the one on my nose. (I love to pick :P) I didn't have a very severe case though. I am most concerned for DH; he had a mild bout with it when he was 17 and I'm sure he'll get it again when DS comes down with it.

I don't think I'll vaccinate Gannon. However, with the increase of children who are getting vaccinated, it is less likely that he will contract the disease naturally, and then what? Also, I read something that said children weren't completely immune who received the shot. They just contracted it later in life, which is much more dangerous.

While DS has received his shots (except Prevnar), I am still wary of the whole idea. The government claims that there are no links to autism, but they aren't necessarily doing the research to back up that claim. Sure, there are no links if you don't bother to look for them. I also don't like how they have these super-shots. My ped told me the other day that eventually they will have them all in one, at least the first four anyway. What if there's a reaction? How do you differentiate?

Okay, one last gripe. I am not familiar with the cost of vaccines because DS has state-funded insurance. His shots are all free. But what do they charge you? I suppose it varies based on your coverage. I just think that if the government is requiring vaccinations for children to go to school (in some states), they should be free.

[egoldber]

In most states, if you receive some type of state assistance the shots are free. But otherwise, if you do not have insurance to cover them, they are VERY expensive. We tried to buy the Prevnar vaccine from our local county health department because my ped was always out of it. They were charging $150 a dose. I believe that most of the other vaccines are not quite as expensive, but are still in the $50 - $100 range.

In general, parents are demanding MORE combo vaccines, not less. It is difficult enough (in the eyes of the AAP) to get parents to vaccinate their children according to the schedule as it is. I am not referring to people like those on this board who have done their homework and decided on a reduced vaccination schedule. I mean there are many parents who do not take their children in for all their recommended ped visits because they are too busy or have other issues and just don't make it in.

Also, people ask for more studies, but for that to happen, parents need to volunteer their children for experimental vaccines and vaccines protocols. It is EXTREMELY difficult to recruit children, especially, infants, for even the most benign of medical studies, much less for vaccine clinical trials. We recently participated in a vaccine clinical trial for the new Flu-Mist vaccine. My ped was recruiting 12 month olds who not yet received an MMR vaccine to participate in this study. When I agreed, he was shocked to find someone willing to participate.

There is a lot of misinformation out there about vaccines. Before making a decision to vaccinate or not vaccinate your child based on something you read, I would make sure it comes from a very reliable source. Hopefully, your ped is one that you trust to talk to about these things and will take the time to talk to you about these things.

[egoldber]

I just wanted to add how much I am enjoying this discussion. Whenever the subject of vaccines comes up on other boards I read, people on the various sides of this issue seem to end up flaming each other. I think it's wonderful that this is a place where intelligent people who think differently can exchange views.

Have a great day!

[KathyO]

On the MMR and autism front, there are actually tons of studies disproving the link. If you want to check them out, register on www.medscape.com and search on autism. They're huge studies, independently conducted in multiple countries, and I am satisfied with the proof they offer. I think they don't get a lot of news coverage because they're not as exciting as the original theory. Incidentally, the two (only two!) initial studies that are both the initial spark and the whole proof for the MMR-autism connection involved ONLY 12 and 14 kids respectively. Honest, that's ALL. Pretty thin evidence for a world-changing theory.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the diagnosis requirements for autism were loosened somewhat in recent years, because (a) they finally admitted that it is a spectrum disorder, and that not all individuals will present with exactly the same symptoms, and (b) many professionals realized that "labelling" a child with an autism diagnosis was not necessarily a bad thing, as it got them access to supports and services, instead of leaving them to cope on their own. These and other factors have contributed to an apparent "increase" in autism _cases_, where there is actually an increase in _diagnoses_ of autism, which is somewhat different.

For what it's worth, my friend's severely autistic son was never vaccinated...

Cheers,

KathyO

[KathyO]

Hear hear!! We certainly don't always all agree (inevitable, as no two people anywhere in the world will raise their kids the same way), but I like this board because everyone seems to go with a basic underlying credo that:


we are all parents doing our best,

different things work for different people, and

you have a right to choose what seems best for you and your child!


I don't know why this board ended up different from many others, but let's keep it up!!

Cheers,

KathyO

[Rachels]

Yes, the studies that suggest a link are awful. But I don't know that the studies that show no link are designed so well, either. Huge is not always a good thing, because it waters down the statistics. It's clear that MMR doesn't cause autism in most cases, and clear that autism exists outside of MMR. Complicating matters is the fact that MMR is given at about the time that speech & motor delays begin to become evident, so it's not obvious what's vaccine-related and what isn't. I've heard that there are some discoveries of measles in the GI tracts of autistic children (suggesting a vaccine link), but I haven't seen those studies myself, so I have no way to evaluate that information. I'm glad I have at least another year to read about this! If they come out with a monovalent vaccine, I'll do that. (Although that sucks-- more needles, which I don't handle well.)

I completely agree with Beth & Kate on the respectfulness of this discussion! You all have my deep gratitude and respect.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Rachels]

Forgot to ask: we've gotten so into the vaccination conversation that part of my origiinal post got lost in the fray. Can you moms of older babies tell me a little about how your kiddos did with 6-month shots versus two- and four-month? I'd just like to know what to expect.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[nohomama]

I was going to respond to the part of the discussion pertaining to the chicken pox vaccine but after reading this post of Rachel's I'm not certain I need to. She's touched on each of the points I was going to make. I too have had family members and friends contract chicken pox as adults with painful and debilatating effects. For adults, I think this vaccine can be invaluable. The fact that there's no long term data showing that the vaccine imparts lasting immunity gives me pause though. If we find out down the road that this vaccine doesn't impart lasting immunity, and the phamacetical industry fails to create a booster, haven't they just succeeded in creating a furture population of adults that is the perfect market for their vaccine????? Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but it IS food for thought.

[sntm]

Actually, bigger studies would be more likely to prove an association that wasn't there than disprove an association that was there.

I agree! Excellent discussions!

shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03

[egoldber]

I actually hesitated to respond to that part, because I didn't think you would enjoy my answer! :( I have found that as Sarah gets older, the vaccinations get harder. Not in terms of her reactions to them (because she has never had one), but she is more distraught at the the time the shots are given. I think as they get older and become more aware and independent, it gets harder. I am pretty comforted by the fact that she gets two more vaccinations at her 18 month appointment, and then we are all done until she is ready to start school. Yikes!

I always try to put on my best game face, with plenty of "what a big girl, all done now, all better" happy words, followed by cuddles and her lovie blankie. Sarah has always been pretty easily soothed, and quits crying almost immediately, so we are pretty lucky there. When she was smaller and I was still nursing, my ped encouraged me to nurse her immediately afterwards to comfort her as well.

HTH,

[Rachels]

Thanks for responding, Beth. I thought the 4-month round was MUCH harder than the 2-month, both immediately and in terms of her discomfort later, and it makes sense that the same would be true now. :( But I'd rather be prepared. Being surprised made it harder for ME, which made it harder to comfort Abby. I'm such a weenie about this! I'd be researching the same way and making the same choices if vaccines were given by nasal spray, but at least there would only be one level to my anxiety!

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[KathyO]

You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to remember that these folks (the vaccine companies) are first and foremost in the business of making money! Otherwise we wouldn't have drug patents!

(Hey, did anyone notice that it was the diet-drug companies pushing for obesity to be declared a medical condition, and for the definition of "obese" to be started at a lower weight? Once it's a medical condition, and the more people you have classified as obese - all of a sudden large quanities of these drugs can be put through people's drug plans! Bonanza!)

Cheers,

KathyO

[KathyO]

I think that mass studies in this case can be very helpful. The researchers have tried to slice the data from several different angles to find a link.

One Danish study I checked followed over 537,000 children from birth to age 9, and compared autism rates between those who were MMR vaccinated and those who weren't. No difference was found between the groups. Similar studies in the US and France yielded similar results.

Other studies have checked for surges in autism rates in other countries in the years after the MMR vaccine was introduced, and found none.

There have even been studies to investigate the possibility of MMR creating a "new-variant" autism marked by bowel disorders and developmental delays. A recent British study of 473 autistic children born between 1973 (before introduction of MMR) and 1998 (well after introduction of MMR) found no difference in the incidence of these symptoms among autistic kids.

I highly recommend www.medscape.com if you want to get really down'n'dirty with much of the currently available research. It's all peer-reviewed, published in reputable journals, and the methodologies of each study are clearly stated. I have been on Medscape jags for a number of different issues. I think you and I are somewhat similar in this respect. Screaming-compulsive-information-junkies unite! You have nothing to lose but many, many hours of time that could have been spent sleeping!!!

:7

Cheers,

KathyO

[megsmom]

I must agree that these discussions are very intriguing and I am quite pleased as an earlier poster said, that we can have these discussions without flaming, mudslinging, etc. I think we all learn from each other's experiences, read what we can, use our instinct and then do what we feel is best for our children. I certainly have learned a ton about this issue! :) I feel very comfortable with the decisions we have made about vaccines, but others who have decided to go a different route have certainly given me much food for thought.

To answer your post, Rachel, I have actually found that Meg tolerates shots better now that she is older. I also did not find that the shots were at all worse at 6 months than at 2 and 4 months. The nurses at my ped's office are incredibly fast and sympathetic, which helps. I have found that infant tylenol given a half hour before and for 1-2 doses after that has been a lifesaver. If you are nursing, they can even give the shots while you are bfing. They did that with my daughter for her first shot (Hep B). She opened her mouth for one second, then just nursed away and never even cried at all. I read one study that said that this has incredible analgesic effects. Another thing that helps me is that I know by getting these shots she (hopefully!) will never have these diseases. Imagine how painful it must have been a hundred years ago to watch your children suffer and oftentimes die from diptheria, tetanus, menigitis... It wasn't that long ago in history that children routinely died from illnesses that today are preventable and easily treated by antibiotics.

I have found that I am less upset about it as time goes on, too. After your baby is walking around, she will fall a bunch and you find yourself soothing lots of owies. That's tough to watch too, but you get a sense of how resiliant babies and toddlers really are and they can go on with no hard memories 5 minutes later!

Jen
mom to Meghan
7/13/01

[jojo2324]

Down'n'dirty whoo-hoo!! Let's get busy...Pop quiz tomorrow girls!

In reference to the MMR shot, they do offer them separately, don't they? I was going to hold off on that shot until G-man was four (assuming we don't leave the country...I'm trusting INS will see to that ;)), a year before he starts school. (Yikes!) That way if any problems did arise, the vaccination could be ruled out as the culprit.

A note about my previous post. My brother Spencer isn't "slightly" autistic, but he isn't altogether normal either. There is a family history on his mother's side of mental...detachment is a good word. (My family sounds like a winner, huh? :P) He's a whiz when it comes to science and has vast knowledge about plant and marine life and cars. But his social skills are severely lacking. He is unable to have a full out conversation with anyone. It totally throws him for a loop.

[Rachels]

MMR isn't offered as separate shots in the US. In Europe, yes, but not here. There's a rumor that they may become available separately in February, but I don't know if that's true.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[KathyO]

There is a form of autism that isn't quite full-blown autism - it's called Asperger's Disorder. It's marked by a number of things that make someone socially/emotionally "disconnected", as you say -

Aspergers' folks tend to be very focused, almost obsessed, with a limited range of topics, and don't realize that everyone around them is not equally obsessed with the same subjects.

They can hold conversations and be very articulate, but they frequently don't leave room for the other person to take part, because they're so consumed with what they have to say.

They either have a very flat emotional "affect", or they respond with emotion that's way out of proportion to whatever the stimulus is.

They do not give the physical and subtle verbal cues that we all give each other as we interact, which makes them come across as a bit peculiar, and they completely miss such cues when given by other people. For example, a person who wants to end a conversation will do subtle things (allowing pauses to stretch longer, looking away) and not-so-subtle things (looking at watch, yawning, saying "I'd better be going") that an Asperger's person will totally miss, and keep talking.

I know this doesn't change anything, but sometimes hearing that there's a word for it (assuming that this is the problem) is easier to deal with than, "just plain odd"! Also on the autism spectrum is "Pervasive Developmental Disorder", which is psychologist-speak for "something's off here, and we don't know exactly what it is or what caused it". Helpful, huh?

Your brother sounds a lot like my nephew. But take comfort... I have an uncle who (honest!) is absolutely convinced that the government is following him around and monitoring him with secret cameras and putting things in his food...

Cheers,

KathyO

[Rachels]

Psychologist-speak... :) Kind of like "colic," which is doctor-speak for the same thing. We can't help ourselves. It gives us at least a common vocabulary to use as a starting place. From there, the utility drops off rather quickly.

:)

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[luvbeinmama]

"Complicating matters is the fact that MMR is given at about the time that speech & motor delays begin to become evident, so it's not obvious what's vaccine-related and what isn't. "

This is totally true that the delays aren't really evident until then. However, my nephew (almost 3 yrs, 11 days younger than DS) has been diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder (although we're not really sure at this point) by some dr.s, while dr.s think it may be a slightly different diagnosis. In any case, my SIL had her 2nd in April, and now she can totally see that my nephew was so much less interactive at that age. So, while you can't diagnose anything until at least 2-3 years, if you look at two children early on (one with autism and one without) and compare, there may actually be a difference, however slight.

Just thought I'd throw that into the discussion. :)

[KathyO]

Oops! That wasn't meant as a slam against psychologists! More to say that even the experts are left confounded by this phenomenon. (Too bad there's no smilie with red cheeks!)

Cheers,

KathyO

[Rachels]

No offense taken! I agree with you, and I definitely have a sense of humor about my profession.

:) :) :), really!

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[emmiem]

I believe you can not go to any PDO program and definitely not enter kindergarten without the appropriate vaccinations. The risks of the actual disease always outweigh the risks of the shots. You need to take some of the literature out there with a grain of salt. Each organization and author has their own agenda.

[Rachels]

No, most states have exemption policies about schools and vaccinations, mine included. Plenty of non-vaccinated or selectively vaccinated children go to school. I disagree that the risk of disease always outweighs the vaccine risk. When deciding which vaccines to give, I take into consideration things like the prevalence of the disease, its mode of transmission, the available safety data on the vaccine, the preservatives used in creating or storing the vaccine, etc. When I'm comfortable that the vaccine is safe and that the disease is both prevalent and dangerous, I give that shot. NONE of this is a light or thoughtless or unresearched decision.

FWIW, everybody, Abby did pretty well with the six-month shots-- less fever, less crying than at 4 months.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02