How do you keep your mouth shut?

[blnony]

I've got to learn this art! :)
I have a friend, that bless her heart, she's a nice gal. She has a baby thats about 3 months old. He's a good baby. She was raised by nannys and such, and now with her child she had a baby nurse that came and lived with her for three weeks, and now she has a nanny too. I don't have any problem with that at all. BUT.... her night nurse was adament on putting her newborn on a schedule, so she used the CIO method from day 1. My friend didn't breastfeed, and has used formula for the get go. Which again, is fine. We have a Wednesday night mommys group, and we meet at her house a lot, because her nanny is only there during the day, and her husband has a job where is gone at night a lot. When we are there, she will put her baby to bed and just let the poor thing cry and cry. I can't stand it!! I always volunteer to go and rock him or anything, but she gets so out of control...no, he will go to sleep on his own. This poor little babe is just so little, that when I sneak in there (because I cannot stand it) he just craves contact. I usually hold him, or let him stay in the crib and just talk to him and hold his hand.
Should I say something, or just keep my yap closed? I don't want to bash parenting styles, but I really feel sorry for him. I don't think my friend is trying to be a bad parent, I just don't think she knows how to be a hands on parent at all?!
Thanks everyone, I know this is also a vent post too, but I just wish I knew what to do.

[etwahl]

Brianna, unfortunately i can't offer any advice, but just hearing this story breaks my heart so much. I bet that little guy loves you coming in there and talking to him, holding him, etc. It's just such a sad story, and I hope someone can give you some advice. I know it kills me when Lauren cries, and I'm there doing all I can to help her, but to hear a baby cry and not have the mom do anything. yikes.

Tammy,
Mom to Lauren Genevieve
03/12/2003
www.evantammy.com

[Melanie]

Honestly, I couldn't. I don't think I'd go on a lecture, but I'd probably just excuse myself. Thank her for the nice time, but tell her the crying is really upsetting to both you and your baby because that is not how he goes to bed.

[memedee]

If she has been letting him cry since day 1 and he is three months old,then I would say her method is definitely not working.
Even those who use the cio method would not advocate NINETY DAYS of crying himself to sleep.
I would want to say something also but it would not do any good as she thinks she is doing the right thing according to her expert advisor,the night nurse.How do the other mothers in the group feel?
I think it is so sad for the baby.
Unless she asks for an opinion there is not much to do.

[momathome]

Oh, my goodness! I thought rigid schedules like this went out with the dark ages! There has been study after study that shows how much babies need you to respond to them comfort them and hold them - crying it out is just cruelty to a 3 month-old who has no idea what the concept means - they just feel that they are being abandoned! I don't know what, if anything, you can do about it, though, without creating a big fuss. Find every article you can on good ways to respond to your infant - it seems like there are articles like this every month in Parents and Parenting Magazine, plus Baby Talk and American Baby. Casually give them to her and tell her they make for an interesting read. Maybe this will wake her up!
-Lauren

[josephsmom]

That story literally brought tears to my eyes. Everyone is probably right that you can't say anything unless she asks for advice. But, maybe you could spend some more time with her so she can see how you interact with your baby. Maybe she'd be interested in trying some of the things she sees you do.

Helene
mommy to Joseph 12/29/01

[ddmarsh]

While this is a terrible story I really feel strongly that there is no way to approach her about it. What will inevitably happen I believe is that no matter how gently you approach her she is going to be defensive and at best the conversation will go nowhere, at worst there will be a negative outcome between the two of you.

Perhaps some modeling of your own behavior with your child may help, but honestly I don't think anything much is going to get through. Or maybe at some opportune moment say something like "I know how hard it is when they won't go to sleep, my baby did the same thing and I felt so upset. I finally found that (blank) worked for me."

That is such a heartbreaking story and it makes me just ache for that poor baby.

Good luck -
Debbie
3 DS's, 1 DD

[Marisa6826]

OK-

I'm going to go out on a limb here. How close are you with this girl? If you are really good friends (as in, not just casual, occasional get-together acqaintances), I would have a heart to heart with her.

Make sure that nothing you say is critical, just explain to her that it might not be a bad idea to try it as an "experiment".

You could say that you recently read an article about alternative methods, you've been trying it with your child, does she have a similar experience....that way you're giving her an "out" without accusing her of being clueless.

If she is a really good friend, she will one day realise you're only trying to help her and her poor little one.

For all you know, she might not like the night nurse's method but doesn't know anything different. My guess is that in her gut, she knows that baby needs her. Wonder what her husband has to say about it!

-m

[mama2be]

I could re write this thread and post like it is my friend and everyone can respond and you can print it and show it to her...or I could write it like I am genuinly asking and everyone can bombard me with "NO you can't do this"...thus with nothing from you involved...I could word it differntly but where we are still talking about a young baby and CIO...then you can take it to her and say, "look this remoinded me of what your ngiht nurse said".

I wonder if her night nurse is an RN or a "nurse's aid/tech" where in mnay parts of the country they are loosely called "nurses"...but can assure you many don't have any more education than the person flipping your burgers at McDonalds.

Let me know if you want me to do so!!!!

[blnony]

Neve-
You are too funny!! Thats a good idea; but I don't think it would matter. I think she just isn't a "hands on" parent. Neither of her parents were; so she really doesn't have many good examples.
Her night nurse wasn't an RN or anything, but she actually shipped this lady in from Dallas for three weeks because she was supposed to be "the best" in our area. I guess this what haughty people discuss, I don't know...:) But she has been doing this thing for years. I just think thats too rigid for a newborn, period. I don't care how long someone has been doing that for a living.
She is just not the type that would respond well to being challenged. I always try to give hints, stuff like that. But she thinks I'm the crazy one, because I actually get up at night with my child and have for almost 10 months.
Sometimes when I'm rocking Audrey, and her little hand is on my shoulder and her mouth is nuzzled into my neck, I just think "wow, I can't believe (insert name of friend) is missing this." Then I feel sorry for her babe. But her day nanny, may not be that way. He may get a lot of attention from her, I really don't know. I find sometimes its best to not ask the details, if I don't already the answer.
I think I'm just going to keep bombarding her with my theories and see if some rub off. But sometimes I just want to lay into her, but that would just open an even bigger can of worms I'm afraid.

[mama2be]

Some of the best advice I got once was "to pick my battles" with that said I'm not saying don't tell her anything...BUT to maybe pick the things that you relaly think you can help her with so as to not bombard her on a bunch of things where she might "turn you off"...does that sense???

This night nurse might be the best in the area...but you are obviously a great mommy and I doubt the advice of this nurse could be any more "expert" than from you...I don't know I have several questions for the night nurse...where are her children while she is "nite nursing...and is so "excellent" at that"...I think tageting her credentials (questioning them) might be the ticket here...

Good luck...I hope you get somewhere with her WITHOUT hurting her...I suspect as she sees you mother she will follow but time is a factor...

Keep us posted!!!

[Melanie]

I find it so hard to believe that people ship people in to tell them how to raise their child! MIL had a woman with both of her kids in the first weeks. She told me that the nurse said to just let them cry, but as soon as the nurse went home she'd pick them up and not let them cry. Can you imagine?

[Denyse]

Oh that just breaks my heart. :( I don't have any advice but that poor baby needs someone to step in and help him. I can't stand the thought of that. :(

[ginalc]

Hi,

I had a GF who used the same CIO technique so I loaned her one of my baby slings and showed her how to use it. Her baby was a preemie and she was new to mommyhood as well. A good way to educate is to gently share that babies do MUCH better in arms than alone in a crib and that Moms all over the world use baby carriers to cuddle and soothe babies, as they have for centuries! Babies are meant to be cradled, cuddled, kissed, and held. Share how content babies are sleeping against Mommy's chest and feeling Mommy's warmth and presence.

What I said was "you know, babies are born having known the comfort and sounds of the womb, many babies just need to be close to Mommy until they are at least 6 months of age and able to soothe themselves."

I don't know if this would work with your friend, but she just might need PERMISSION to respond in a different manner to baby's cries. I feel that she probably just doesn't know what else to do so she lets baby cry.

It's worth a try! :)

gina, mom to 3

[posterelle]

All I know is, BEFORE I had my son, I thought it was terrible how people are always judging new parents. Now, afterwards, I have so many opinions (LOL) & it's so hard to keep my mouth shut sometimes!! Saw a woman w/a nb the other day in the Gap, & she totally ignored him while he cried & cried. but then a few minutes later, I watched her nurse him, & i thought, well that poor woman looks depressed. I still wanted to rescue her baby, but it put it in perspective. (of course I'm guessing her entire situation!)

[Marisa6826]

I've seen the same thing, and I've wanted to say something.

But you know, today Jonathan and I were out with Sophie having lunch in a local restaurant. The place was pretty empty save for another family with a small child (everybody else was eating outside!).

Sophie was being particularly nudgy, whining, crying. I tried the bottle, nope. I tried the paci, nope. She was just being yucky. ALL I wanted to do was eat my DAMNED LUNCH!!! So I let her cry a bit. I just couldn't eat with one hand anymore! God knows I've become incredibly ambidexterous already!

It completely freaked Jonathan out enough that he came around to my side of the table to try and rock her in her car seat. This ticked me off even more. He panics as soon as she cries.

So I took a last bite, paid the check and left.

I'm sure that the other parents probably thought I was a horrible Mommy. Then again, it's not like she was screaming her head off, either.

Certainly my case is nothing like this girl's situation with the 3m baby CIO. Sometimes you just need a minute to reset yourself before dealing with your crying babe.

-m

[ginalc]

Another thought I had is that if Mom doesn't tolerate screaming well, perhaps baby is safer crying it out alone in the crib.

There is a Children's Home not too far from where I live where children with Shaken Baby Syndrom go to stay. They stay there for pretty much the rest of their childhood, until they reach 21. At that point they move on to group homes or nursing homes. These children have a variet of deveopmental problems, some are blind, some are paralyzed. Very sad.

gina, mom to 3

[stillplayswithbarbies]

Oh my, I don't know what to tell you. This would just break my heart. I think I would have to stop going to her house.

I liked Gina's advice about giving her permission to respond in a different way.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel 2/27/91
Logan Elizabeth 3/25/03

[flagger]

Since you asked for opinions, I thought I would share mine.

You can find 10 books that recommend the CIO method and 10 books they recommend attachment parenting. IMHO, neither method is right or wrong. Each set of parents need to do what is best for them. Having a nanny or putting a child in daycare is just so completely not our style of parenting. However that doesn't make us or them better or worse parents.

We don't co-sleep, we don't wear our baby (she hates it), she sleeps in a crib in her own room and she does so on her stomach. Does that make us bad parents? I don't think so nor do I think that those who practice AP are necessarily better parents either. We all do the best we can with what instincts we have and what works best for us as a family.

The learning curve on parenting is just so high that nothing anyone can say really makes a difference. Our advice would be not to try and parent her child. Nothing is worse than unsolicited advice from someone who doesn't know your child.

[mama2be]

I might be wrong but I don't think she is talking (or atleast I was not responding to) the "CIO method" mentioned in books I too support parents in their decisions. BUT I think the difference in this scenerio is the baby is 3 months old and "CIO" was started on day 1...I know none of my books start the "method" at that age...some might...but none I've seen.

So I don't look at this thread as "anti CIO" as much as I look at it based on this one baby and it's age...does that make sense or did I really confuse things :)....

[flagger]

I know, I was just trying to answer the should she say something or not question. :)

[carolcarpenter]

You might want to ask your friend in a nice way, "Oh, you have him on a schedule? That's interesting...I know a lot of books recommend that but I don't know much about it. How does that work?" (Rather than "Is that working?" which might sound kind of critical). Then if she opens up because she sees you want to LEARN from her, rather than TEACH her, she might volunteer her own doubts about the system.

Then if she does offer anything ambivalent to say about it, that would be the time to gently say, "Well, it's hard to find just one system that works for the whole time they are babies. Sometimes one thing that works when they are 1 month old doesn't work at 4 months old. What are your other ideas?" Again, ask questions...draw her out. Don't immediately jump in with, "Here are some other ideas."

Training as a psychotherapist helps here!!
Good luck!!!

[lisams]

How about the Dr. Phil approach? Maybe you could simply ask "So how's that working for you?" Then if she says it's not working so good you could offer some suggestions or ask her if she would like some references you use. If she says things are working great then you can let the subject alone.

It would kill me to be in your position. It must be so hard for you to hear that poor baby be left to cry through the night. And to be honest, I would be concerned about the health of a baby being left to cry at such a very, very young age. Most newborns NEED to eat in the middle of the night, regardless of parenting style.

Good luck with this sticky situation.
Lisa

[blnony]

Just to clarify a few of my concerns when I made this post:
I am not attacking her parenting skills. I simply just do not feel that a baby that small and young should be left crying so much when he is in need of comfort. I know this because I go into his room, and comfort him when I am there. I see and feel how he reacts. I've been friends with this gal for years, she was in my wedding. So, it doesn't really offend her for me to care for her baby.
As a parent, you can tell when a baby wants to be comforted. He is too young to be crying for manipulation sake (like my 10 mo old does regularly.)
Like I said before, my post was part vent, and part a queston of opinion. I try to lay hints about things, but she has decided that her "shipped in" baby advisor is the master of all things baby. Fine. Thats her choice. I do plan on however continuing my plan of laying hints and such in a subtle way. I am not going to come out and attack her or tell her she is a bad parent. I was just looking for helpful suggestions on how to get through to her that her baby may be in need of more comfort and contact, esp. at this age.
I love the "how is it working for you" idea. I could just hear Dr. Phil's voice loud and clear. She will tell me if works fine for her. Because her husband gets up if the baby does, and her nanny is there all day. So I don't know if that would really work.
Mainly, it just bothers me to know that she and her baby are missing out on a lot of bonding and close special moments, esp. at this age.
thanks everyone for you suggestions, I didn't mean for anyone to get mad or upset by this post, Its just a situation that weighs on your mind, esp. when you have a baby too.

[Momof3Labs]

Brianna,

I understand your concern - that would break my heart, too! Poor little guy. Hopefully that nanny will go home soon (maybe the question is how to get the nanny fired, not how to change your friend's approach ;-)) and you friend will find a nice, loving, flexible nanny.

[egoldber]

If she's a good friend, could you make her a gift of something like Harvey Karp's "The Happiest Baby on the Block." Say something like, "This book SAVED my life when Audrey was little and I think it is so fabulous! When I was at my wits end as to what to do, it gave me great ideas! Since your baby is fussy too, I KNEW you'd enjoy it too!" (Regardless of whether this is true or not. :) )

He talks a lot about how to hold and comfort a newborn and the importance of the "fourth trimester". You never know, she may read it and it may help her! If she just doesn't know what to do and is relying on the nanny because she DOES seem to know what to do, this may help.

Good luck!

[stella]

GREAT idea!! I love that book. It is so common-sense and kind to babies.

If it were an old friend of mine - in your wedding!! - I would say something. Like "you know, I am sure that she has a lot of experience with babies, but in my experience, a baby really needs his mother - and the fact that he's still crying means that he needs something" (at this age anyway!!) and suggest that he may just need to be held.

It's such a sad situation. And I don't believe that you have made anyone mad by this post. I think most everyone appreciates the sadness of her baby's situation and your awkward position as her friend.

[luvbeinmama]

Oh, dear! This is happening week after week? I had DS on a schedule and let him CIO, but it only took a week for him to be able to sleep on his own without CIO. Then he would just go to sleep when we put him in his crib. Or if he cried it was for a minute or so, then he'd go to sleep. This does not seem to be working for your friend. I like the indirect approach the others have suggested. It worked for DS, but it does NOT work for all babies, or all parents. You REALLY have to stay in tune with what your baby is "saying". If he's been CIO for lengthy times for 3 months, I'd say something is definitely wrong with the way things are going. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that he has 4 different caregivers! It's really hard to be consistent when he's being handed off to nanny, daddy, night nurse & mommy all the time. IMO, a schedule really needs one person to be there all the time with him, so she can keep track of things and make sure the care is consistent. Personally, I think consistency is one of the main things a child craves/needs (besides contact, etc.). So while scheduling and CIO can work, you really need to react to what the baby is doing, or not doing. I would definitely try talking to her (again, I like the indirect approach) and see if she will let down her guard enough to let you give a couple suggestions, or recommend some books to read.

HTH.