sleep training

[julieann]

My ds is 11 weeks old and we are getting ready to start sleep training... he goes to bed fine at bed time, but wakes for one feed a night.. is that the time when we let him cry? and what happens if he does go through the night but now wakes at 5ish or 6is instead of 7 or 8.. is 5 or 6 now up time?

thanks, Julie
mom to sam
4-25-03

[peanut4us]

you kind of have to go with the flow. as far as scheduling him ir lettng him cry, it kind of depends on what theory of sleep training you are following. i know most books don't recommend trying to put your baby on a schedule until the baby is at least 4 months old. And i recently asked the board about feeding my dd in the middle of the night. she didn't wake up in the middle of the night for 5 weeks and then she started wakinh up once a night again. i was advised that babies that small can really only cry for you because they really need you, and lo and behold that was about when she started to get sick.

so i personally would feed him. and if he wakes before 6 try feeding him and outting him back to bed.

[daisymommy]

Waking up once a night at this age is doing VERY GOOD! From what I have read and experienced with other friends children, you really can't expect more than that at this age. Our Ped. said not to expect your baby to sleep thru the night until he is 16 weeks old minimum. All the sleep books you will read say not to start sleep training and crying-it-out until then (4 months) as well. Babies tummies at this age are still small, and can't hold that much food. If you are breastfeeding, breast milk is digested in 2-3 hours, formula in 4-6. If your baby is crying to be fed after that length of time, he really is hungry! I know it's hard not getting as much sleep as you are used to, but that's just part of the responsibility of parenthood that we all signed up for. it will get better later on. In teh beginning my DS slept through teh night, but woke up at 5am. I would change and feed him, and he would go back to sleep until 8 or 9am. You may want to try that .

[blnony]

I know that you must still be very tired, but IMO 11 weeks is a little early to start sleep training. Even Ferber recommends that babies be at least 6 months before trying to sleep train or CIO at all. Also, at that stage, sleeping throught the night is considered 5-6 hour stetches, anything beyond that is bonus:). After reading Ferber's book and a few others, we really came up with our own plan which was kind of a combination that we felt comfortable with. There are a lot of different schools of thought here, but the one thing all agree on is babies under six months are too young for effective sleep training. HTH-

[Rachels]

I agree, it's way too early to sleep train! Once a night is really good for a baby that age. He's also about to hit a growth spurt, and he's going to be hungry more often. If you ignore his cries, you're ignoring his attempt to communicate to you that he needs to eat. Imagine being uncomfortable but not being able to get a snack, read, call a friend, etc-- any of the things that soothe you. Such is the plight of a tiny baby. The only option they have is to cry as a way of letting you know they need some asistance. I definitely know how hard it is to be tired, but it sounds like your little one is letting you know he needs you. It's important to go to him, especially while he's still so little.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Andrea S]

Waking up 1 time for feeding at 11 weeks is great. Andrew was still waking up 2-3 times. I think it is too early for sleep training. I read the book by Weisbluth and he said up to 9 mos it is ok for babies to get up for a feeding.

Andrea
mom to Andrew 8/14/02

[mom2kandj]

Unlike most of the other posts, my ped pushed for our kids to be sleeping through the night(6 hours) at 8-10 weeks after the baby's 2 month well visit. As for the night feeding, our ped suggested that I decrease my nursing time by one minute each night for a week and then not feeding but checking in to comfort if the baby cried. For DD, she started to sleep through within 10 days and DS took about 2 weeks to make the change.

You will be one lucky mama if your child sleeps longer than 8 hours before 6 months. (It does happen, but don't count on it! :) ) Looks like you will be getting up around 5am! If your baby is older and you know that the light in the morning is waking them, you might want to install an additional room darkening window treatment over your existing window covering. For DS, we have 2" wood blinds on his window but added a padded cornice which hides a roller shade that we pull down at bedtime and naptime. This has made a great improvement at naptime and we are looking at doing the project again for DD.

Back to the topic! Sleep training is a personal choice which most experts say shouldn't be tackled until the child is closer to age one. We were lucky that our children fell easily into a nighttime routine(and that I was clueless and followed my ped's lead). As for naps....that is a different story. If you do choose to work on the sleep training, make sure to look at your baby's routine as a whole and that what happens during the day will affect their nighttime routine and vice versa. Sleep training is an ongoing process and you will have setbacks triggered by illness, growth spurts, development spurts, etc. Do not get discouraged but do not get too caught up in the training that you stress out over it. HTH!


Rose
mom 2 Katie (31 months)
& Jack (15 months)

[Momof3Labs]

I agree that it is way too early to start sleep training, and way too early to expect Sam to go through the night without eating. BUT it isn't too early for you to start your research. My favorite book is Weissbluth's Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child - if you don't want to do the crying part, you don't have to, there is a lot of good sleep research and other information in there.

Letting a baby cry (cry-it-out or CIO) is only one part of a sleep training program - Weissbluth's book will help you fill in the gaps (when Sam is old enough - we waited until about 8 months).

[caroliner]

Just agreeing that 11 weeks is WAY too early to start even based on the hard core CIO promoters... Your baby sounds like a great sleeper for his age. My one year old still occasionally gets up once a night, and I consider her to be a very good sleeper.

[LisaS]

I disagree - I think you can start sleep training as soon as you want - actually, the sooner the better. By sleep training, I mean getting them into a routine where they sleep and eat at certain times (establish morning, naptimes and bedtimes) and become comfortable with the familiarity of their schedule and usually sleep better (and eat better) b/c of it. I started a routine w/my DD at 6 weeks!

By 11 weeks, she was big, gaining weight fine and was sleeping 7-8 hrs a nite then - I combo-fed due to low-supply and gave formula at nite. If your exclusively BF, you may need to feed more often. I just controlled when those 7-8 hrs were. Rather than feed her at 7, let her sleep till 1or 2 a.m.. I'd feed her at 7, put her to sleep, then wake her at 11 to feed her before I went to sleep and then she'd sleep through till anywhere from 5-7 usually. If she was up at 5, I'd feed her but put her back to sleep. If she didn't want to go back to sleep, I left her to play in her crib or in my bed. She sometimes fussed for a few minutes - I'd leave her to fuss or talk and if she cried, I'd comfort her, but I'd keep telling her that it wasn't morning - it was time to go back to sleep. then give her a "top-up" / snack at 7a.m. to keep her on track for the rest of our day. It took a few weeks to establish 11-7 but once I did, then I tackled dropping the 11p.m. feed. She started taking less and less (b/c she was eating more and more in the morning and more during the day) and by 14 weeks, she pushed the bottle away from me and went back to sleep. 7a.m. - 7 p.m at 14 weeks - so it is possible.

Very important in sleep training is establishing morning -- if the baby needs to eat before morning, that's fine - but that's all he should do -- eat, get down to business - go back to sleep. That is the tricky part. No playing until its morning -- which you decide - for some people 6 is OK, for me before 7 doesn't really work.

I followed Gina Ford's Contented Little Baby Book - its strict and I didn't follow it to the letter- but I did as much as I could and it worked! I think I am a much better parent b/c I get a full nights sleep. Sure, she did and does still occasionally still get up -- if she's sick, teething, growth spurt, jet lag. And we sleep train all over again when we have to get back on track. I did and still do let her CIO -- now that she's older its definitely tougher. But I know that she will cry for a few minutes and usually stop and go to sleep. I also always go to her and comfort her if she does cry for more than 5 minutes.

I hope this helps.

[josephsmom]

IMHO, it's much too early to start sleep training. At least until babies are 6 months old, when they wake up crying, it's because they need something. I really think one wake-up per night is terrific at Sam's age! One thing you can do, though, is to make those wake-up times shorter so that you and he can get back to sleep faster. Keep the lights dim. Don't play with him or talk in an animated fashion; be more business-like during the feeding. Only change his diaper if he's had a bowel movement. I hope these ideas help some. Please try to hang in there, and don't rush into sleep training too soon. It really might be counterproductive to try it before he's ready. For example, if you don't respond to him when he needs you, this might decrease his trust in you and cause him to be more needy, not less. Good luck!

Helene
mommy to Joseph 12/29/01

[barbarhow]

I agree with Lisa-hardcore sleep training is one thing but getting a routine now may make the process easier in the long run. I started reading Weissbluth 4 weeks ago when DH was 10 weeks. At that time we started a routine. He gets one bottle of formula/day and gets it at 7p. Then we read a book. Then he breastfeeds and then he goes down in his crib. 80% of the time he is asleep before he gets to the crib. 10% of the time he is almost there and the other 10% he is happy and smiling when I put him down and he soothes himself to sleep. For 4 weeks now he has been sleeping through the night between 10 and 12 hours. Very rarely he wakes up in the night to feed. He never had to CIO and IMHO this is because we established the routine early. (You'll all be laughing at me in 3 weeks when he goes on strike-refuses to sleep and has me up all night-I can see it now).
On the occasions when he does wake up to feed it is no conversation, no diaper change (unless he has pooped) and right back to the crib where he usually goes back to sleep.
It could be that we are just lucky but I think the routine is a huge factor. It took several days of putting him to bed a little earlier before we got to a 7:30 bedtime. But I must say so far it works great.
HTH
Barbara-mom to Jack

[Kristine]

I absolutely agree that 11 weeks old is way too early to start any kind of sleep training. As somebody here said in another post, waking up at night to take care of your baby is just something you signed on for when you became a mother. It's a 24 hour a day responsibility and not something you do only when it's convenient for you.

I also strongly disagree with letting your child cry it out for any reason whatsoever regardless of age. Your baby cries because he needs something whether it's food, a diaper change, or just a cuddle and some love. A baby doesn't understand that adults like to make things complicated for themselves and devise "systems" for getting their children to sleep such as letting them cry it out for a certain length of time before going in, etc. They are primitive little beings and only cry because they NEED you.

While letting a child cry it out may seem to a few on here to work right now whilst their children are still babies, all it is doing is teaching them that their mother cannot be relied on for comfort and security and this will catch up to the mother later on in life with her child.

[Momof3Labs]

>While letting a child cry it out may seem to a few on here to work
>right now whilst their children are still babies, all it is doing is
>teaching them that their mother cannot be relied on for comfort and
>security and this will catch up to the mother later on in life with
>her child.

Whew - that's some gloom and doom. I guess that I might as well give up right now as a mother, huh?

Believe me, you are more than welcome to your opinion when you decide how to raise your children, but it doesn't seem fair to me that you judge those of us that made an educated decision to use a different approach to parenting.

Why can't mothers support one another and stick together, even if they don't agree on the details???

[barbarhow]

Thank you Lori! Well said.
I don't remember reading any research showing that reasonable CIO periods cause lasting trauma to children. While I haven't resorted to it (haven't needed to) If I feel its an option at the time I will try it. And try it with the confidence that it will not mean my child will end up in therapy for the rest of his life....
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03
PS-IMHO Lori is also right on about mothers supporting each other regardless of the parenting styles they choose. I doubt anyone here really needs or wants to be judged by someone else.

[LisaS]

As someone who does allow CIO - I agree that motherhood is a 24-hour job, but that does not HAVE to mean sleepless nights. You can do your job much better if you have a good nights sleep and your baby will be much happier on a full nights sleep. And many babies may need a little help learning how to sleep through the night and there is NOTHING wrong with helping to teach them - we all pick and choose our ways of teaching - for some of us it is CIO - and so many people choose it b/c it works.

I do let my DD CIO - she is now 18 months. She sleeps 12 hrs/night. But occasionally, she will get up and cry - I let her cry for 5 minutes - usually, she stops and goes back to sleep.
I understand that she is still young, but she is a very confident toddler, not clingy at all and when she needs me (dirty diaper, or cuddle), she lets me know - she continues crying till I do come to her and resolve the issue. But more often than not, she resolves the issue (changing sleep cycles, misplaces her pacifier) on her own within 5 minutes and I am glad she knows how to get herself back to sleep without me.

Hmmm...so are you saying that all babies who are allowed to CIO will be emotionally traumatized and have bad relationships with their mothers later on in life? Are there studies that show this? I'm curious. I have spoken with several doctors abt their thoughts on babies CIO -- most of them agree that babies won't REMEMBER it and won't be any worse off for it. If anything, if you help them learn to sleep on their own, you're doing them a big favor. As someone who was never allowed to CIO, my mother always rocked and nursed me to sleep - I do NOT have a close relationship with her. While I know others whos moms did use CIO and they are now best of friends later in life...so I'm just offering my opposing view on this, but still interested in where you got your theory from.

[Rachels]

Well, there is some new research out of Harvard that shows that babies who are left to CIO have a significantly higher incidence of anxiety disorders as adults. There are lots of ways that people do CIO, and one method may not produce the trauma of another, but the study was one of many things that convinced me that I'd never leave my baby to cry in a dark room alone. And at any rate, a baby as young as we're talking about here is not developmentally capable of crying to manipulate. ANY cry at that age signals an unmet need, and if you don't respond to the cry, you don't respond to the need. I do think that babies can glean some meaning from this, and I wouldn't want my daughter coming to the conclusion that she can't communicate her needs or that I won't try to meet them. And having treated a bunch of people with anxiety disorders and having had some similar struggles myself, it doesn't feel at all okay to do something that may cause that kind of difficulty. Babies eventually learn to sleep. I'd rather be tired now if it will help to protect the quality of her life in the long run.

To me, the CIO thing has several aspects to consider. One is the long-range possibilities. One is the communication between mother and child, to which there are different approaches. My particular approach requires me to listen to her needs and to respond to them, no matter what hour of the day it is. The other thing is the developmental appropriateness of expecting a baby to literally sleep all night. While I do think there's a difference in older babies in waking and then just not knowing what to do with themselves vs babies waking in hunger or pain, in the first year at least it's hard to know which is the culprit until you go and check. There are growth spurts, teething, diaper rashes...any number of things that can interrupt sleep for a baby in a recurrent or unpredictable way. I worry about just choosing to not go in, because I think it assumes that the baby is NEVER waking with a legitimate need, and sets the parent up to actually miss some needs.

I see both sides to this discussion, though, at least as far as how it should be handled on the boards. There are a lot of parenting styles here. I've learned a lot from the different approaches people take, and I think it's important that everyone can feel safe presenting what they think. But that means that occasionally, somebody is going to make a tough point that doesn't feel good to you if you've chosen another route. I agree that part of the beauty of these boards is the nonjudgmental atmosphere, but I didn't hear Kristine name-calling. She stated a strong opinion, but where's the rule against that? If you believe, as she does, that leaving your baby to cry interrupts the communication abilities of a mother and baby, then it follows that there might be some consequences to that. That's all she said. I think it's okay to state your disagreement, but I wonder about the message that she never should have given her opinion. I don't want to see people pathologized for their parenting styles, but neither do I want to see people afraid to state their cases on important issues such as this one.


-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[egoldber]

The theory that I have read in almost every child development book written by someone with actual credentials in child development (and therefore, I hope, someone current on the research)is that babies younger than 6 months should never be left to CIO. Younger than this age, a baby has not developed the capacity to understand that if they cry, you will respond, so when they do cry it is becasue there is something that needs attending to.

Also, this same research indicates that infants whose cries are responded to promptly and consistently actually cry LESS as olders babies and toddlers because they have developed a sense of security that their needs will be responded to.

After age 6 months, the research is less clear. One thing I REALLY like about the Weissbluth book is his emphasis on developing healthy sleep habits when they are young, so that when they DO cry during the night when they are older, you can be confident they are crying because there is a true need, and not because they do not know how to self soothe or to be manipulative. That, to me, is the power of his book.

And I actually do something similar to what Lisa describes. When she cries at night, I let her go for 5 minutes. If she is still crying after that I go in to her. Like Lisa, I know that if Sarah COULD go back to sleep, she would, so there is a problem. But personally, I would not describe this as CIO, since to me that means leaving the child to cry themselves back to sleep without going in to them. And when DD was very young, I always responded to her cries as quickly as possible.

HTH,

[Momof3Labs]

My issue with the way Kristine stated her "opinion" is that she specifically referred to "a few on here" who had done CIO, and how it will catch up with us. I think that there are better, less judgemental ways to state an opinion (perhaps phrasing it as an opinion, not a fact, and not referring to other posters in the process).

When I read your opinion, Rachel, you clearly state it as that, and refer to yourself and Abigail (not other posters), and I am not offended when I read it.

[barbarhow]

Rachel-I totally appreciate what you are saying and perhaps I did get my feathers ruffled a tad, needlessly I might add since my DS does not CIO. That being said-the original statement sounded like a judgement-much more so than your nonjudgemental translation in your post. The original statement says that it will catch up to the mother later in life-yours says there might be some consequences. I believe there is a big difference in the statements.

>While letting a child cry it out may seem to a few on here to work
>right now whilst their children are still babies, all it is doing is
>teaching them that their mother cannot be relied on for comfort and
>security and this will catch up to the mother later on in life with
>her child.

>If you believe, as she does, that leaving your baby to cry
>interrupts the communication abilities of a mother and baby, then
>it follows that there might be some consequences to that.

I also think that different people have different definitions of what CIO is. 1 minute, 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 30 minutes? What is acceptable to one parent may not be acceptable to another.

Additionally, I apologize if anyone thought I sounded like I didn't believe she should give her opinion. It just felt like a judgement more than an opinion.

Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03

[mama2be]

THAT POST WAS A JUDGEMENT MORE THAN AN OPINION!!!!!-I much more appreciate an educated reference than soemone attacking "those among us"...
And you do not need to apologize for feeling like it was a judgement because it was just that...

I have learned that those who pass judgements are some of the folks that I (if desparate enough) could find plenty of faults with...Lori is right mothers need to be more supportive of mothers...we would all be worth our weight in gold in we were!!!!!

I thank god don't have sleepless issues so I am not defending one side vs the other. Nor do I have a need or desire to critique one's way of handling their child in this forum. I assume 100% of us here are doing what we think is best for our children or we would not be here...

[Karenn]

>Well, there is some new research out of Harvard

Rachel,

I often hear about this research but have never been able to find the study to read it and evaluate it myself. I've found an article published by the Harvard Gazzete (or something like that) five years ago which seems to refer to the research (by Patrice Miller?) but I can't find any published academic studies. Do you have the citation?

Thanks,

[memedee]

I brought up my children in the same way that you did,Lisa.
The children were put on a schedule by a baby nurse and I just followed her pattern.My DS who is my first born had some sleeping issues.We resolved them by going in every five minutes or so and told him ;It is time to go to sleep.Good night and gave him a pacifier.
Took one night.I was lucky.
I used the pacifier only in the crib and at night for about six months.
No place else.
I think babies and adults do well with a schedule.
I think the consistency is reassuring.
I am very close to both my children and they have no major emotional issues.
My daughter is an amazing mother to an 11 week old.
She has him on a schedule { not rigid} similar to what you did Lisa.
However,I do think every mother should do what works best for her and her family.
I think the reason some people are so emphatic about the child rearing practices that they follow whether it be co-sleeping or SAHM vs WOHM,or sleep training etc is that they are so invested in doing the best ,the very best for their child that they want reassurance that their way is indeed the best.One way to get that reassurance is to have as many people as possible agree with their choices and sometimes that involves demeaning or disagreeing with other peoples choices.{Not referring to this board just in general}
Unfortunately there is not one standard in child raising as in any other decisions that we make for our lives and no clear cut route.
Believe me there are many more decisions to disagree with coming up!

[mama2be]

You are a true asset to our boards...as a mommy and a grandma :)...
Thank you for your insight.

I acutually met a lady a few weeks back who was 55 (a stunning 55) and the mother of a 6 year old (I'm almost certain the biological mother of this 6 year old)...AND she was a grandmother...she said she so relaxes this time around...and goes with her gut...she said she would have enjoyed her her first "round" of kids so much more if she had done that then...
There is so many decisons to be made that I hope folks will support eachother...offer what works for you and even why you made the decision...but kindly...we all want to do what is best...

Thanks again!!!
Hugs!!!

[Kristine]

First off, I honestly didn't intend for my comments to sound judgmental. I actually was just stating my opinion on this subject that is very important to me. My opinions were based on many books I have read on the subject including my favourite - "The Baby Book" by Dr. Sears - lots of La Leche League info, googling for research on the internet, and watching children of people I know grow up who did CIO vs. those that didn't and observing the interaction between those parents and their children in later years. That's really all. Also my grandmother spent most of her life as a critical care nurse and had a lot of experience with children and was always telling me that small babies should never be left to cry. So these are just some of the things I used when I made my decision.

I haven't had any sleepless nights because my husband and I co-sleep with our son, and if he makes any sounds at night I roll over, give him the breast, and voila! He's back asleep almost immediately. Or at least I'm asleep right after that!! So I actually do feel refreshed every morning and have since he was born and never experienced any kind of sleep deprivation. It might have been different had we chosen to use the crib we bought for him, but it just seemed right and natural to put him in bed with us for the time being.

At any rate, he'll be a baby for only a short length of time, and when I consider that most of his life he'll be living away from me and not sharing a bed or expecting me to respond to his cries, it's really not such a big deal to me to figure out what he wants right now since this precious time with him won't last forever.

[christic]

A few weeks back I read a book called Raising America: Experts, Parents, and a Century of Advice About Children. It's a history of childcare experts starting from the turn of the century. Throughout that whole time there have ALWAYS been two camps--those that recommend following a baby's lead (demand feeding, responding to every cry) and those that recommend parents take the lead (schedules, sleep training). She points out that neither side ever really has enough conclusive evidence to prove one theory over another and that all of these experts faced challenges raising their own children, often ignoring their own advice in real life.

It's a fascinating read but the best part was this tiny piece of advice in the last chapter. My approach to using experts has always been to read books by people who seem to best fit my own instinctual parenting methods. What she suggests instead is reading experts in the Other camp, especially when you're faced with a very tough problem, because that's the only place you're going to find that truly enlightening kernel of advice to help you through. Plus it helps alleviate the guilt if your methods aren't working as you'd hoped, because if you've read and re-read Sears and your baby is still crying about the only conclusion you can come to is that you're not properly "attached" to your baby after all. But you can pick up a copy of Ferber, still strong in your conviction not to ever let your baby CIO, and maybe his discussion of sleep cycles in newborns will give you new insight.

My own example is reading the Baby Whisperer very early on. I hated the idea of this book, didn't think it fit my baby-led style of parenting, and only had it around because someone gave it to me. But it was her insistence on keeping a detailed journal of feedings, sleep times, and diaper changes that got us off to a long-term exclusive breastfeeding relationship. This was at a time when the Womanly Art of Breastfeeding made me crumble with guilt because I hadn't prevented my daughter from getting formula in the NICU.

So (after all that!) my point is that I like these discussions for the same reason. No one is going to convince me that I should have Ferberized my daughter, or co-slept with her either, and I don't think any of us is going to switch sides after reading a post here. But I think there's an endless supply of helpful bits of information to pick up from honest, open-minded posts on both sides of the issue.

[josephsmom]

Well said as always, Dori! It's so good to have a grandma here. Thank you for not following your second rule (keep your mouth shut) this time :-)!

Helene
mommy to Joseph 12/29/01

[josephsmom]

You've made an excellent point! Thank you. Next time I'm stumped, I'm going to read something that (on the surface) seems to run counter to my usual ideas. I really like that. Thanks again.

Helene
mommy to Joseph 12/29/01