Weisbluth: Am I bad? Anyone else nursing A LOT at night?

[etwahl]

I just started reading Weisbluth sleeping book. It talks about how cosleeping, if done for say a year, may not allow us to ever get our child out of our bed. Now I love sleeping with our daughter, but I don't want to sleep with her FOREVER. I do however want to sleep with her now and feel I need to for nursing, especially since she still nurses (like clockwork) every two hours all night, every night. And that's the other thing that makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong. The book says she should wake up 1, maximum 2 times each night, and often not at all.

Does anyone else have a child who nurses frequently at night? What are your thoughts on Weisbluth? And how about the family bed. Did you have problems getting your child out of there when you were ready (if you coslept for at least a year)?

Tammy,
Mom to Lauren Genevieve
03/12/2003
www.evantammy.com

[Rachels]

Throw this book away. It is NOT written for cosleeping families. I know that some people have found it helpful, but if it's making you feel bad about your parenting, get rid of it. Of course Lauren won't be in your bed forever. How many people do you know who follow their babies to college? Basically every other sleep guru is very clear that it's normal for babies to wake at night to eat during the first year. Try reading Sears and www.drjaygordon.com instead, as the stuff they write is more in line with your parenting. Weissbluth thinks it's okay to leave a baby to cry in a dark room for an hour or two, which has been demonstrated to be psychologically and possibly physically harmful, so I don't trust him much.

If it would help to have a concrete example, though, here's one: my dear friend coslept with her baby for the first two years, and he was a major night nurser for fifteen months. Then, the week he turned two, he said, without prompting, "Sleep in own bed." And he has, all night, ever since. He's one of the happiest, most secure, well-adjusted children I've ever seen.

Do NOT let this bozo make you feel like a bad mom.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[cdlamis]

I agree! I think that by co-sleeping, you are showing your baby that sleep is a comfortable, safe, and enjoyable event. That is all you can provide for them right now. You can't train a baby to sleep- just give them what they need and they will let us know when it is time for change.

We co-slept with Julia until she was 9 months old. We all enjoyed it. One night, she tossed and turned all night and cried at times, so we tried moving her to the crib next to our bed. She slept 12 hrs in her crib that night and since then. She has always been a good sleeper but she was telling us that she needed her own space. Julia has never feared sleeping (alone or with us). Yes, there are still times when she sleeps with us for a few hours if she needs it and then lets us know that she would be more comfortable in her own crib. She is now to the point where I can put her down for a nap in her own crib awake and she will fall asleep on her own. If she does cry, I go and get her, but for the most part she likes to nap/sleep there. But until she was 9 months old, she never napped in her crib. She only napped in my arms or in bed with me. So it does get better and you are doing whats best for the baby.

Sorry I rambled! Its just that everyone told us that we were spoiling Julia and she would never leave our bed, and she is now one of the best sleepers I know.

Follow the cues from your baby and you (and the baby) will be fine.
Good luck!
PS- I too recommend Dr. Sears.

Daniella
Mom to Julia 6-13-02

[lizamann]

I too have a co-sleeping, night nursing baby. Sometimes she gets on at 4 am and won't come off until we wake up! Yes, I am a human pacifier.

Rachel had a great suggestion about finding other books that support your practices. I have to admit that reading Weissbluth make me have twinges of guilt (envy, actually, of all those supposedly-sleeping-thru-the-night babes) but then I gave that up pretty quickly.

If you go to a LLL meeting and voice your concerns, you will probably come away with many positive affirmations of what you're doing. Maybe it's worth a go.

[etwahl]

thanks everyone. Let me begin by saying, I definitely read Sears, and love and follow their books. But I buy so many books based on recommendations from this board (amazon gets a lot of business from me!) and eventually I get around to reading them. Today I picked this one up because I had just put her down for a nap and thought "hmmm, I wonder when they start napping less..." because she has been most lately taking 3 naps rather than 4 like her usual.

But then I started reading it, and it just made me feel bad. I know that I'm doing a good thing for my daughter and that I'm just doing the best that I can to give her a good life. I'm VERY much an attachment mom. I think I just had a moment there where I needed affirmations from you all.

Thanks for that. I'm now feeling good again :)

Tammy,
Mom to Lauren Genevieve
03/12/2003
www.evantammy.com

[Calmegja]

I'm late, but I'll just reinforce the same. Weissbluth is not for co-sleepers.

We've got four kids, and we're down to one in the bed, so don't worry....they do eventually leave! ;-)

[lisams]

Same thing happened with me!! I thought, what is wrong with me since everyone else raves about it. I really like "Nighttime Parenting" by Sears. It's geared towards co-sleeping families, and has a good chapter on nighttime parenting of high needs baby. His closing at the end helps me put things back in prespective when I start feeling like a failure since we do things so different than most families I know. You are doing a FABULOUS job!!!!!!! Put the Weisbluth book away for now and read your beautiful daughter ;-). Look at how your parenting has already changed her for the better in so many ways.

Lisa

[flagger]

I guess the question to ask yourself is are all three of you happy about co-sleeping? I know Evan is still in training in AR, but what about when he returns? We personally don't like Sears at all because he makes working moms feel like second class citizens. Also his opinion makes anyone who gives up co-sleeping feel incredible guilt. Co-sleeping is something that has to work for all three of you. If Evan said, "Tammy I want our bed back, how would you respond?"

FWIW, a healthy baby at six months can go all night without eating. I think Lauren is just used to feeding because she has been trained to eat that much at night. What would happen if you didn't respond as she went through different sleep periods? Yes it might be horrible for the first couple of nights because you would be re-training her, but it would not be damaging in the long term.

Of course, as long as you are happy with it, then you are doing fine. If it becomes a problem, you are NOT a bad mother if you stop nursing at night or stop co-sleeping.

Personally I think Wiesbluth is great, but then again I also think Ferber is an excellent source of sleep advice as well.

[MartiesMom2B]

Tammy:

How long do you want Lauren to sleep with you? If you are comfortable with her at night then you really shouldn't pay attention to the Weissbluth book. He even states in there that co-sleeping is fine as long as everyone is getting enough sleep. I think the best thing for you to do is trust your instinct and put the books aside.

FWIW, I co-slept with my parents. I probably slept in the room with them either in their bed or on the futon on their floor until I was in 4th grade and then occasionally until we moved when I was in 6th grade. My mom and dad said that they weren't thrilled about because I guess I used to flail around when I was little, but I think that's when they sent me on the floor. There are some other events that happened that were some what traumatic to me while I co-slept with them, but it must not have been that big of a deal because I kept sleeping in there.

Sonia
Proud Mommy to Martie 4/6/03

[muskiesusan]

I was co-sleeping when I first read Weisbluth, and I still found it very helpful. I think the value of his book is how to avoid sleep problems by learning cues from baby on when they are tired. I was having an awful time getting Nicholas to bed and after reading Weissbluth I realized that his bedtime was too late for him even though he didn't appear tired before I would put him down. The same for naps, I was putting him down when he was overtired, which made him restless. I know there is alot of controversy over the extinction theory, which I would personally never use, but Weissbluth believes that if you are reading the cues, there will be no need for crying.

Nick fed every two hours at night until 8 or 9 months I think. I love Dr Sears as well, and he even states that by 3-6 months you should only expect 1-2 night wakings, I think that most of the books agree on that. I actually felt comforted by Weissbluth when he said some babies need to feed at night up until 9 months.

The thing about parenting books it that no baby is going to follow all the milestones or characteristics. I like to read all types of parenting books, and use what works for me. I don't let any of them make me feel bad about how I choose to parent.

I think that Weissbluth is a great sourse on how baby's sleep, so you might want to finish it if you are having any sleep issues at all. And as for the co-sleeping, do what you think is best, you are the parent!

Edited to add: I also think you should nurse all long as you feel it is necessary, once again, you are the parent, you know what's best!

Susan
WAHM to Nicholas 10/01/01

[Rachels]

But it CAN be damaging in the long term to ignore a baby in distress. Among other things, it increases the likelihood that the child will suffer anxiety disorders in adulthood, and it raises the proclivity for PTSD should that child suffer a traumatic event. And Lauren has had lots of tummy troubles-- she may need to eat at night to feel okay.

And she's not a puppy-- she's a baby. She doesn't need to be "trained." Tammy can help her learn other ways to sleep when they're both ready. The idea of training a child rubs me wrong, particularly when it involves a stretch of "horrible" time. Maybe it's semantics, but it sounds dictatorial to me, and is out of line with Tammy's commitment to gentle and responsive parenting.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[flagger]

If all three of them are not fine with co-sleeping than that is NOT ok. All we have is Tammy saying what she wants. I did post if Evan has a problem with it, than that is not OK.

Allowing a baby to learn to soothe herself is not damaging. A child can be trained to fall asleep on her own and soothe herself by six months. A healthy full term baby who is fed every two hours at night will of course be hungry every two hours. It is certainly worth exploring not feeding her every two hours or offering water instead during the night if it becomes an issue for Tammy to keep waking up throughout the night. If she has no problem with it, then that is fine too but there are always alternatives to try including Weisbluth and even Ferber.

More than likely a six month old crying child at night is not in distress but angry they are not getting their way. If they were TRULY in distress, a parent would know it.

And by the way, Weisbluth is not a bozo. He is a well respected physician with years of experience in sleep disorders. Calling him such is insulting and incorrect. And that is not semantics, that is fact.

[Torey]

I say go with Rachel's advice. I think changing horses mid-stream would be too hard to do at this point. You have been co-sleeping and your daughter does need to nurse regularly. Mine does too. Unfortunately I did not co-sleep with my daughter and so she has no idea how to sleep in the bed with me. Hence, I have to physically get out of bed every night (sometimes up to 4 times!). Let me tell you that is no fun. From what you've said in the past about your daughter's needs, I think she needs to nurse and be with you. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. When your daughter begins nursing less, then maybe you'll want to move her out of your bed. If you want to work on your daughter's sleep habits I would suggest reading (which you probably already have) "No Cry Sleep Solution". I think you will like this author much better.

Also, it is too funny to see Rachel and Flagger arguing. This is starting to be a regular event. :)

[flagger]

I respect what Rachel has to offer, I just happen to offer a different point of view. I can always agree to disagree with someone whose parenting style does not match mine.

[peanut4us]

Interesting point flagger. I also don't like the Sears books because it makes me feel extra bad about going back to work... and I don't need that from anybody, certainly not someone who I am going to for advice... so I don't read him.

As far as Weissbluth, I liked the book for a lot of the information, but we do not really CIO. Don't get me wrong, Sara cries. But not for long... and never in distress. After almost 6 months, we can tell the difference of a "I wanna stay up and play" cry and a "help me please" cry. The latter cries elicit immediate responses.

Sara is dropping weight percentiles, so my ped even said, if she wakes in the night, feed her. And most peds are pretty anti feeding in the night by about 6 months. She wakes between 1 and 3 times a night. sometimes it kills me sometimes, I treasure the quiet house, and one moment of peace a closeness with my little girl that I get in a day.

So, what's your answer. If you feel good about it, and it's not endangering your baby, then keep on keeping on. You're doing great. Trust your instincts

[AugBaby]

Just like any other topic, you're going to find "experts" who tell you how much/how often your child "should" do something. *You* are the expert on your child and you should follow your own intuition not someone else who has never met your child. As Rachel said, no one follows their child to college in order to continue co-sleeping. When all three of you are ready to stop co-sleeping you will. If anything, it is more difficult for a younger child to stop co-sleeping. You can't reason with an infant.

Lauren will begin to sleep for longer and longer periods as she gets older. However, my dd is two and she still will wake at night to nurse if she's fighting a cold or teething. I really don't mind it because I feel that it helps us all out in the long run. One or two nights of more-frequent-than-usual nursing means no cold which means a much more happy mom and toddler. Many times she doesn't catch the cold that the others in her playgroups catch, and I wouldn't trade an uninterupted night of sleep for that. Afterall, I'd have that first night's sleep and be up with her with a cold for who knows how long anyway?

We still sleep with dd because we still really enjoy it. When we no longer enjoy it, we'll make a change. If you are bothered by her waking you can try putting a little distance between you (your breasts) and her in bed. Sometimes a cuddle can become a nursing session that would be avoided if the breasts weren't so easily accessible. But, like I said before, I personally don't want to limit the nursing. I like the health benefits it reaps. I also don't mind if I'm dd's pacifier. I want to be her pacifier if she needs me. As the mother of a nursing toddler, I find the emotional stability nursing gives her to be invaluable. But hey, that's a different post!

If you need help in eliminating some night nursing just post again and I'm sure a bunch of us can help. I also recommend going to LLL and heading over to mothering.com for some support. Oh, and try The Family Bed as an Amazon recommendation!

[Torey]

I know you do - please don't be offended. :)

[suribear]

Our dd slept with us until I got pregnant with #2. She was 2.5 years old. It started b/c nursing was so much easier for all of us - we all slept much better that way. And it felt nice to be together.

At first dh slept with her in another room, then we finally transitioned her into "her" room with much fanfare and her fave color sheets :) And she adapted really fast.

One thing you will learn is to take advice from like-minded parents/experts who have a similar parenting philosophy. I'm sure you probably have a sense of that, based on what feels right to you. For instance, do you find yourself agreeing with someone's posts most of the time?

There are various viewpoints out there. Good to know, but ultimately you are a better judge than some book :)

Kris

[Rachels]

>And by the way, Weisbluth is not a bozo. He is a well
>respected physician with years of experience in sleep
>disorders. Calling him such is insulting and incorrect. And
>that is not semantics, that is fact.
>

Well, there are lots of people with years of experience in things who later turn out to be wrong. Physicians used to advocate all sorts of stuff-- spanking, rendering women unconscious for childbirth, blood-letting-- based on "years of experience"-- but those things have proved injudicious or dangerous with research. My beef with Weissbluth centers around CIO, primarily. He has one of the harshest approaches around if you follow his CIO advice, and it may be patently dangerous. I can't imagine the guilt if I knowingly allowed a child to CIO and then that child developed an anxiety disorder. They can REALLY be debilitating, and can make life feel not worth livng. To suggest to parents that there are no consequences to leaving a baby alone to scream is negligent and stupid.

As for Torey's comment-- I don't want to get in online arguments. I think that often, Flagger and I have different approaches because we're different kinds of parents, and I think that's okay. I've found myself angrier this week because there have been a few comments-- training a child, the idea of hell to pay for a 13-month-old baby, etc.-- that have been particularly hard to see posted as advice.


-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[etwahl]

Evan actually LOVES cosleeping. He's read all the books too, and thinks that we're doing an AMAZING thing for Lauren and he's thrilled for it. I asked him a long time ago if he had any plans of getting her out of our bed and he said, quite frankly "she can sleep with us until she's 18 if we all want it..." Now of course he wasn't really serious about the 18 thing, but he did mean that she can sleep with us until it's no longer working for all of us. He's also committed to getting a king sized bed and we're putting our mattresses on the floor. He has actually said to me that it's a good thing we cosleep because Lauren is the kind of baby who couldn't function too well alone in her crib...she's just a more spirited and sensitive baby. In the beginning that meant she cried a lot. Now I like to think that she's just a more affectionate girl who just loves her parents so dang much. She's actually such a joy to be around since we moved past the colic.

As far as nursing every 2 hours at night, it certainly doesn't bother me. Waking up to feed her is just part of my job in my eyes. I do agree with Rachel in that with Lauren's allergies and tummy problems, she has never really eaten A LOT at a time...so I think that might have a big part to do with it.

I am not a CIO type of mom. Actually, I never let Lauren cry. And I know everyone has their own style of parenting, but when Lauren cries, my blood pressure rises, and I do absolutely anything to prevent and stop that from ever happening. I guess I just don't have what it takes to let her CIO.

FWIW I was just posting this to see what others who were cosleeping and frequent nursing thought about the book in general (because it had been recommended and so far it didn't seem supportive), and if it were really a problem getting the child out of bed at some future point. I guess I was really just looking for opinions from those in that situation, parents who've coslept and eventually moved their child to their own bed. I honestly wasn't looking for evaluation as to whether I think cosleeping and frequent nursing are "OKAY". If I didn't think they were okay, I wouldn't be doing them. I just wanted to know if this book was really against my parenting style in general throughout the book, as that was the impression I got initially. From other books and sources I've read, it's very normal for BF babies to nurse more often when cosleeping.

We absolutely plan to cosleep AT LEAST one year and beyond whatever works for all of us. I love it so, but it's more than that also. I am committed to nursing for at least one year, and for us, that means she'll be in our bed at least that long!

ps: Our absolute favorite is how she wakes up and looks back and forth at both of us, smiling, waiting for us to open our eyes. She's so dang cute. Evan always loves those morning moments. I think that's one of the things he misses most about not being here!

Tammy,
Mom to Lauren Genevieve
03/12/2003
www.evantammy.com

[flagger]

I agree on our different approaches to parenting. However, I don't think the idea of training is so bad. We see LC's as teachers/trainers for BOTH mom and baby. If it is not bad to train a mother and baby how to nurse since it is a learned behaviour for some and not instinctive, it certainly is not bad to train how to sleep.

I also don't believe that CIO is necessarily harmful. I have never seen verifiable scientific evidence of any long term lasting effects. And to throw out that PTSD is a possibility does nothing but foster guilt in parent who choose that route. Especially when that suggestion has zero basis in scientific fact.

I am done with this thread. I know that Tammy is a wonderful mom who has essentially been doing it as a single parent since Lauren was born. As long as co-sleeping and nursing every two hours does not bother her or all of them, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach.

[kristine_elen]

I don't really like this book. It has some good info, like the fact that babies can't stay awake very long, etc, but I think it's too harsh. Lots of people do cosleeping and their kids don't end up sleeping with them forever. Cosleeping is very common in many other countries. (We are not cosleepers, but I know people that do it and I think you should just do whatever works for you.) By the way, my son nursed a ton all through the night when he was young, then just began sleeping through the night all of a sudden around 6 or 7 months. (Now he wakes up screaming several times a night, but we think that's either teething or separation anxiety. I'm sure by the time we figure it out, it will have passed. Knock on wood.)

[spu]

Hi Tammy,

We started cosleepting gradually with Charlotte when she was about 5-6 months old. Eventually I got more and more comfortable cosleeping all night with her and wished Else would join us. Now, all 4 of us, plus Clara, our 70 lb. chocolate lab, share the bed. I must say, we're all much happier this way.

Here's our nighttime nursing story:

Charlotte nurses a ton during the night (and daytime too) even at 13 mos old. Cosleeping with her made a world of difference in my sanity the next morning. Sometimes she nurses just for a few minutes, other times, she's getting a big meal. Most of the time, neither of us wake up enough to notice. I'm happy she's getting the comfort and nutrition she needs.

Before she slept with us, I'd be filled with anxiety about when her next cry would be and I couldn't let her cry-it-out, plus she'd wake Else if I didn't get her right away. Now, it's our routine to get all snuggly in bed and they both nurse to sleep. At some point in the night, Else fusses and moves around alot, and she actually wants her own space, so I put her in her crib for a few hours until she starts to peep. Then usually around 4 am, she comes back into bed and stays latched on until about 7 or 8 am. I, too, am her pacifier (and glad to do it!)

I haven't read Weisbluth, but I get alot of support on this type of issue from my LLL meetings. They have supported all my wishes and have parenting ideas similar to mine too. A good LLL group will support your own wishes - weather it's to nurse for 6 weeks, 6 months, or longer...

I remember reading a 'schedule' about how many times a baby should nurse as they grow. If you're breastfeeding, it digests so quickly (and efficiently) that frequent nursing is almost a given! (unless you're trying to wean). We never fell into a schedule and I don't even try. I'd say by 10 am, they may have nursed 4-5 times already! But sometimes, it's more like they're coming to say "I love you mama!" and get a quick reassuring nibble and then they go back to playing.

Granted, this lack of schedule and sleeping arrangements won't work for everyone, but it makes me happy, makes my 2 babies happy, my DH sleeps better (just has a little less space!) and my babies are thriving.

As far as cosleeping, I love snuggling with their warm little soft bodies and they grow so quickly and I know I'm going to miss it dearly when the day comes that they want their own bed. Sure, I miss being able to sprawl out when I sleep, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.

susan
twin girls 7.20.02
charlotte & else

[Rachels]

Maybe not absolute, but to my mind, worth paying attention to. There were warning signs that cigarettes caused cancer long before there was "irrefutable" evidence. I'm not trying to guilt anyone. I'm mentioning that there IS evidence of a pretty concerning thing, and it's worth learning about. Nobody has to follow this, but to pretend it doesn't exist doesn't really serve any purpose. Anyway, here's a synopsis of one study if anyone is curious.


Harvard Researchers Say Children Need Touching and Attention

by Alvin Powell, Contributing Writer,
Harvard Gazette

America's "let them cry" attitude toward children may lead to more fears and
tears among adults, according to two Harvard Medical School researchers.
Instead of letting infants cry, American parents should keep their babies
close, console them when they cry, and bring them to bed with
them, where they'll feel safe, according to Michael Commons and Patrice
Miller, researchers at the Medical School's Department of Psychiatry.

The pair examined child-rearing practices here and in other cultures and say
the widespread American practice of putting babies in separate beds - even
separate rooms - and not responding to their cries may lead to more
incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders among American
adults.

The early stress due to separation causes changes in infant brains that
makes future adults more susceptible to stress in their lives, say Commons
and Miller.

"Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily harms
the baby permanently," Commons said. "It changes the nervous system so
they're sensitive to future trauma."

Their work is unique because it takes a cross-disciplinary approach,
examining brain function, emotional learning in infants, and cultural
differences, according to Charles R. Figley, director of the Traumatology
Institute at Florida State University and editor of The Journal of
Traumatology.

"It is very unusual but extremely important to find this kind of
interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary research report," Figley said. "It
accounts for cross-cultural differences in children's emotional response and
their ability to cope with stress, including traumatic stress."

___________
"Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily harms
the baby permanently. It changes the nervous system so they're sensitive to
future trauma."
- Dr. Michael Commons, Dept of Psychiatry, Harvard
___________

Figley said their work illuminates a route of further study and could have
implications for everything from parents' efforts to intellectually
stimulate infants to painful practices such as circumcision. Commons has
been a lecturer and research associate at the Medical School's Department of
Psychiatry since 1987 and is a member of the Department's Program in
Psychiatry and the Law.

Miller has been a research associate at Harvard Medical School's Program in
Psychiatry and the Law since 1994 and an assistant professor of psychology
at Salem State College since 1993. She received master's and doctorate
degrees in education from Harvard's Graduate School of Education.


The pair say that American child-rearing practices are influenced by fears
that children will grow up dependent. But parents are on the wrong track.
Physical contact and reassurance will make children more secure when they
finally head out on their own and make them better able to form their own
adult relationships.

"We've stressed independence so much that it's having some very negative
side effects," Miller said.

The two gained the spotlight in February when they presented their ideas at
the American Association for the Advancement of Science's annual meeting in
Philadelphia.

In a paper presented at the meeting, Commons and Miller contrasted American
child-rearing practices with those of other cultures, particularly the Gusii
tribe of Kenya. Gusii mothers sleep with their babies and respond rapidly
when the baby cries.

"Gusii mothers watching videotapes of U.S. mothers were upset by how long it
took these mothers to respond to infant crying," Commons and Miller said in
their paper on the subject.

The way we are brought up colors our entire society, Commons and Miller say.
Americans in general don't like to be touched and pride themselves on
independence to the point of isolation, even when undergoing a difficult or
stressful time.

Despite the conventional wisdom that babies should learn to be alone, Miller
said she believes many parents "cheat," keeping the baby in the room with
them, at least initially. In addition, once the child can crawl around, she
believes many find their way into their parents' room on their own.

American parents shouldn't worry about this behavior or be afraid to baby
their babies, Commons and Miller said. Parents should feel free to sleep
with their infant children, to keep their toddlers nearby, perhaps on a
mattress in the same room, and to comfort a baby when it cries.

"There are ways to grow up and be independent without putting babies through
this trauma," Commons said. "My advice is to keep the kids secure so they
can grow up and take some risks."

Besides fears of dependence, other factors have helped form our childrearing
practices, including fears that children would interfere with sex if they
shared their parents' room and doctors' concerns that a baby would be
injured by a parent rolling on it if it shared their bed, the pair said. The
nation's growing wealth has helped the trend toward separation by giving
families the means to buy larger homes with separate rooms for children.

The result, Commons and Miller said, is a nation that doesn't like caring
for its own children, a violent nation marked by loose, nonphysical
relationships.

"I think there's a real resistance in this culture to caring for children,
"Commons said. "Punishment and abandonment has never been a good way to get
warm, caring, independent people."


-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[ddmarsh]

"I have never seen verifiable scientific evidence of any long term lasting effects. And to throw out that PTSD is a possibility does nothing but foster guilt in parent who choose that route. Especially when that suggestion has zero basis in scientific fact."


Research that Rachel is basing her statements on is indeed scientifically based. Child development resarch utilizes standard scientific methods in the study of this and many other issues. She certainly does not throw around statements about child development simply based upon her opinions as she is a well-trained psychologist. Statements such as those above are simply not well researched nor based upon any professional research or experience. Moreover, the idea as suggested that an infant is crying out of some sort need or desire to "get their own way" is patently absurd.

Edited to add I see that Rachel added the above at the time I was writing this response :).

[nitaghei]

Rachel,

I do agree.

BUT

What do you do when every book makes you feel that you're a lousy parent?

I HATE reading Sears because I have to work full time, which means DS is in day care - which makes me a terrible parent, according to Sears. SIGH.

I still nurse DS a minimum of twice a night, and often 4 or more times. Which makes me a bad parent, according to Weissbluth. SIGH.

And I bring him to bed, or leave him in his crib - whatever works for him. Sometimes he sleeps better in his crib, sometimes he sleeps better if we co-sleep. Which is breaking every rule, according to both Sears and Weissbluth.

Nita

[Rachels]

Nita, you sound like a wonderful parent! No rule works for every situation. My mom worked full-time when I was a kid, and she is one of the most loving, committed parents I know. A working mother is not an automatic recipe for disaster as long as you find loving, attentive care for your child while you're away. I don't think Sears says that a woman is terrible if she needs to work. Being with a child is ideal, but not always possible, so loving care in your absence is really okay.

My opinion about Weissbluth and his aversion to feeding infants is pretty clear, I think. Good for you for nursing your baby.

As for changing around where he sleeps, that's not anti-Sears, either. It sounds like you're paying attention to what he's telling you he needs, and doing that. That's sort of the message of attachment parenting-- connection and awareness of and response to your baby's communication, not doing something in a formulaic way.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[houseof3boys]

Tammy I second reading the No Cry Sleep Solution. I enjoyed this book and have just started re-reading it. We don't cosleep but I do bring Ryan into bed with us if he has nursed twice already (whether it is 3 AM or 6 AM) and I am getting tired of getting up and/or listening out for him.

I think you have made up your mind about cosleeping too...but I am sure it is nice to have the reassurance.

I think these healthy debates (Flagger and Rachels) are great things because everyone has a different approach to things and it is educational for me to hear each persons experience. But I have to say that Flagger is more old school about things. I respect a lot of his relaxed parenting style even when I could never do it myself!

[flagger]

I know I said I was done this thread, but I will add one thing. Being a male who stays at home I am terrified of "shaken baby syndrome". Since statistically it happens more often at the hands of males than females.

To me and Ms. Flagger for that matter, giving ourselves 5-15 minutes to cool down while she screams in her crib is far better than the risk of being frustrated and doing the very little it takes to cause brain damage. (I have even gone outside to tune her out) Shaken baby syndrome does not happen just at the hands of type A personalities.

We feel if she is in her crib crying she is in the safest place she can be.

Now, please note this rarely if ever happens, but it was a parenting decision we made from the beginning.

[lizajane]

i think it is important to remember that you can find a study and scientific research to support almost any parenting choice.

(i do not include things like leaving your baby in a play pen ALL day to cry alone as parenting, by the way, there are bad things you can do to your child that no one supports, but in terms of parenting styles that we have all be discussing...)

i don't think it is ever right to tell another parent that your way is the best way or the only way because of the research that you have found. the second parent will only offer contradicting research that supports his/her way of parenting and suddenly you are stuck.

there was research and there were studies that "proved" babies should sleep on their tummies. but my mom, for example, realized my sister slept better on her back. so she let her. now, we would say that she is right to have ignored the research. which, i think, means that YOUR parenting choice is THE BEST parenting choice.

from what i have read and heard from parents, co-sleeping promotes unncessary nightwakings. so i don't want to do it, i don't do it, and my 6 month old has beeen sleeping through the night since 9 weeks. we are all very happy and well rested. however, lauren may actually need to eat every 2 hours. or even if she doesn't, she may need some extra attention every 2 hours. tammy likes feeding her. tammy likes sleeping wtih her. and if the feedings are physically or emotionally necessary, tammy is meeting those needs. super.

so listen to the people who agree with you and ignore the people who don't. if you are actually doing something harmful to your child, no one will agree with you.

[Torey]

As I said to Flagger, please don't be offended. I agree that some of the "advice" posted here is rather odd and I'm so glad that you are taking them on. I don't have the training that you do to refute some of what is said and I am thankful that you are able to for us.:)

[nitaghei]

Thanks, Rachel.

I guess I feel guilty about working, and resentful that I have to, when I'd rather stay home. So I tend to take the comments in the Sears books about working moms rather personally.

The fact is that if I didn't work, we'd end up living in a ghetto, with DS stuck in lousy public schools - which is not acceptable. And DS is in an excellent day care facility right next door to where I work, so I get to nurse him, and spend time with him, during the day.

And DH isn't too supportive of the co-sleeping (or extended BF'g - which is another rant), but he isn't willing to stay up nights with DS, either (see my most recent update in the B*tching Post). Incidentally, because I take DS to day care, and take time for him during the day, I actually end up working longer hours that DH.

You can see why I'm a tad sensitive about my parenting decisions!

Nita

[nigele]

Tammy,

Tom and I coslept until he was 13 months old and he nursed every 1-2 hours. At thirteen months, when I just could not bear it any longer, Simon started doing Tom's bedtime routine and putting him in his crib. We did let him cry (a bit) using the Ferber method, which I believe is less cruel than Weissbluth, who recommends leaving the baby to cry for an hour. It was a lot less traumatic than we imagined - Tom started sleeping through the night on his own within two days. He doesn't even peep now when we lay him down for the night in his crib. Let me know if you would like more details down the road... Oh, and FWIW, reading Sears make ME feel guilty!

Take care,

[Calmegja]

I like Sears, and I feel guilty reading him, too.

Mine centers around the food suggestions. I read the Nutrition book and was depressed for a week. ;-)

What is it about that style of writing? I like most things about him, but there's some good guilt material in there.

[lisams]

I totally know what you mean about how she looks back and forth, my DD does that too. She will also reach out her arms so that she is touching both of us when she is almost asleep. It's absolutely the most precious thing!!! I love waking up to her smile!

Lisa

[C99]

When Nate was 4 months old and not sleeping, I read every book I could get my hands on: Weissbluth, Sears, Brazelton, Karp, Pantley. By the time he was nearly 6 months old and not sleeping, I threw all of the books onto the top shelf and figured out something on my own, by my own instincts. My instincts were to put him in his crib and let him learn to sleep in his room, on his own. This involved some crying and lots of guilt. Initially, I thought Weissbluth was an ass and Pantley/Sears were great. Actually, I still think Weissbluth is an ass, but I immediately noticed a change in Nate when he got more sleep. Co-sleeping was just not working anymore: he was waking every 30-90 minutes to eat/sleep. I was tired and cranky. Nate was tired and cranky. And my husband was just tired of co-sleeping. Now, Nate sleeps for about 4-5-hour stretches (teething) and has slept for up to 6-7 hours at a stretch. When he wakes up hungry, I feed him and put him back down.

Threads like this one actually make me feel like a horrible parent. Seeing things like "CIO may cause PSTD" make me feel really bad. I know that you are not in my house and you are not with my child 24/7 and that I know my child and my needs better than anyone else, but it still makes me feel really bad.

[mama2be]

Caroline,

You are an excellent mommy...and WITHOUT EXCEPTION EVERYONE HERE ON THESE BOARDS IS A WONDERFUL PARENT!!!!!

I have to say I deteste threads like this and must admit that after reading this one today I was tempted to wean myself from these boards. None of us should be made to ever feel guilty...and I actually would rather look into my child's eyes then to sit here and type a post that makes someone feel guilty. So I have to question those who take the time to make others feel bad as opposed to being with their child. I love these boards but the day I step away from my child (sleeping or not) to waste time making wonderful parents feel guilty is the day I have to look into the mirror and question my parenting tactics. And I guess I am starting to feel guilty for stepping away from my child (sleeping or not) to read this stuff that makes others feel guilty... that is the day I have to personally question my own parenting.

I have lately asked my DR about many recent posts that are 'expert opinions"...he lately starts laughing about the "expert advice"...he cringed that some of it made no sense and sited one tid bit of info (repeated often here) as totally inaccurate...infact not just inaccurate but exact opposite of what is the case. He was Chief of Staff of Hopkins...and though he might one day be found to be wrong on something I have to say I trust him a lot more than I do a bunch of articles and books INTERPRETED by others. And if I didn't trust him I'd fire him and get another DR that I trust. Surely there are some great DRs out there, I finds great ones everywhere I turn.
I am amazed at how many folks here seem to listen to these interpretations as the gospel...it's as if you can post something and folks just think that has to be true!!!! With our DRs we can fire them and change DRs if we don't trust their judgement...here you have to listen to it day in and day out...

I have read one book, it's readable in 2 hours and that is it. Parenting is instinct...and for others to make anyone feel badly is uncalled for especially when it comes to parenting!!!!

One could point the finger at anyone of us if desperate to put soemone in their place...... diapering, home made baby food, clothes, how you feed, how you sleep...but why???? there are other boards that spend their energy hurting eachother I sure hope this one does not come to that-lately it is starting to...

I visited a board for 5 mintues recently of parents who desperatly want a "name" to their technique of parenting. It was humerous because they attacked "their own"...folks who so desparatly want to be in this "label" were actually targeted that they don't CD...that they don't feed their baby totally hand made baby food etc... etc... so I find it humerous to have to give a "label" to your parenting technique and find it more humerous when folks seem so driven to have that label to "fit into" that square but when you read from others in the 'square" they don't totally fit into that...and are attacked for the slightest detour to that agenda.

I don't need a label to describe my parenting techniques...I've said it before and I'll say it again I've met many moms from these boards and mothering groups-ALL HAVE BEEN EXCELLENT PARENTS...none of them has been a worse parent than I am...but none of them have been a better one either!!!! We do what we can. My technique is to keep my marriage strong so my child will grow up with both of us-that is my number one parenting technique...and if that does not happen to assure my child that his mom and dad will always do what is right by him and to maintain a great realtionship. THAT IS THE BEST THING WE (MY HUSBAND AND I) CAN DO FOR OUR CHILDREN!!!!

But please do not feel guilty and if it helps you are not the only one who feels guilty reading such things I can assure you...

I enjoy others views...but I don't like to see any of us who are going thru the most important thing in our lives (raising our children) made to feel guilty for our choices...

I'm not speaking for CIO because I have not had to cross that road-so I'm not defensive of that per se...as I am of anyone here having to constantly have their "nose rubbed" in feeling badly for their parenting actions.

Editd to add: I will not respond further in this thread...maybe it is wimping out but I'd like to think I shouldn't be wasting any of my time on such negative stuff...so lack of further response doesn't in the slightest change how I feel and my defensivness over others being critiqued all day long.

Maybe I look at parenting thru out the world...it seems odd to be sitting here at a comfie desk and air condition when mothers on this Earth as I type are walking MILES AND MILES all day long with children in tow, huge containers on their head just to get water for their families. Unclean water at that...Children run miles to school a day without shoes in parts of this world...I mean it is sad that our worries might be so few that we actually have to make others feel badly about a path that they have chosen that is obviously a good one, maybe differnt than our own, but obviously good intentions.

We have so many resources to fulfill our parenting, we are able to take advantage of our situations so that we can make decisions...why keep making others feel badly...our children are lucky to be raised by any of us with the technology and education and most of all the desire to raise great kids that is apparent that we each have.

[mharling]

I hadn't planned on jumping into this thread, but decided to when I saw Caroline say she feels guilty about parenting decisions she obviously gave a lot of thought to. You ARE a wonderful parent Caroline. I do find it unfortunate, and I have been there myself, that posts can sometimes make us feel bad about decisions we've made. A long time a go, I first read Neve's statement about not finding any parent worse than her, but also not finding any parent better than here. I can't tell you how many times I repeat that to myself because it's SO TRUE! Even while seeing this thread evolve, I was telling myself that.

I absolutely value this community and the information I have gathered here. I think that's a key, I GATHER information and then apply it (or not) how I choose. No one person here has a one size fits all solution. We all have our own solutions that fit with our own child(ren).

Tammy -
I know this isn't the direction you intended this thread to take. I think your instinct told you to can the Weissbluth book because you weren't gathering useful information for YOUR parenting. Good for you and good luck!

Mary & Lane 4/6/03
http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b32e1840e40d - New 9/8

[ralu]

I just want to put things a little bit in perspective to help those who CIO to feel better.

I think citing research is a great way to keep us informed, whether we like its results or not. However, when reading about such studies, we must keep in mind that most these results are correlational, not causal. What I mean by that (although I am not familiar with the particular study cited and the article does not say much about the actual research method) is that the study implies that CIO and PTSD are *associated*, not that CIO *causes* PTSD. There may be other hidden factor that causes both parents letting their kids CIO and PTSD (maybe low socio-economic status, or depression, or something else -- no real idea).

Anyhow, to my knowledge (which is not vast) there is not a lot of evidence that CIO (esp. if the child is old enough) and later disorders are associated. Unfortunately, CIO may end up causing damage (who knows?), but it is one method that typically helps with sleep. Lack of sleep and no CIO may lead to other problems in the family (depression, chronic fatigue etc.), which, in turn, may themselves impair the well-being of the child.

So, I guess, the bottom line is: if you can survive reasonably well without CIO, great! If not, then I think it's fair to say that you chose the lesser evil and that you never know what bad thing would have happened to you or your family if you did otherwise.

Sorry for the long and perhaps too rambling post.


Raluca & Matei (Feb 2003)

P.S. I read these bboards very often and appreciate and respect the posters a lot, although I don't post too much.

[etwahl]

Just wanted to put up a final post here. Someone said this was not the direction I wanted this post to take, and they're so right. And others have said "they're done with this post..."

Today I'm a little tired, bitter, angry, because my husband is out of town - STILL - and am as usual the sole responsibility of a little girl, in a NEW town, no friends, etc. AND I'm expected to prepare for a hurricane alone. Something I have no experience doing.

My original question was as follows:
"Does anyone else have a child who nurses frequently at night? What are your thoughts on Weisbluth? And how about the family bed. Did you have problems getting your child out of there when you were ready (if you coslept for at least a year)?"

I just wanted opinions of people who coslept and nursed frequently. Unfortunately it became a lot more than that. I guess what I'm saying is that it's frustrating for me that people feel bad because of this post, but I hate having the added burden of feeling guilty that I am the one who started it. I think I'm having a bad week -- wouldn't you if your husband were ALWAYS gone???

Tammy,
Mom to Lauren Genevieve
03/12/2003
www.evantammy.com

[JMarie]

Tammy, I am so sorry I don't have much advice for you - just wanted to voice my support. I hadn't responded previously because I was quite saddened by the direction of some of the posts and honestly, I am not anywhere near your situation to be able to offer constructive advice. It sounds like co-sleeping works for you and you're just having a little anxiety about things - that's completely understandable. You're an amazingly stong woman and mother and I hope you are able to get the information you need. I am just sorry I cannot be the one to give it to you. Do what feels best for YOU.

Jennifer
Mom to Aidan Christopher
01/28/03