Feedback on Pantley's "No Cry Sleep Solution"

[nitaghei]

Is there anyone who's used her methods successfully? Could you give some idea about how it's supposed to work? The Amazon reviews aren't really helpful.

I'm only interested in hearing about Pantley - I do NOT want to start another Weissbluth/CIO - Co-sleeping/AP war.

I would appreciate any feedback. DS's night sleep is becoming progressively worse. At almost 9 months, he's waking up 5 times or more at night (upto 12 times last night :(), which is more often than when he was a new-born. He does take decent day time naps, so that isn't the problem. And I'm so sleep-deprived that I'm beginning to worry that I'm sliding into a morass of transformed migraine (continuous headache, 5 or more migraines a week). I have to get DS to sleep, just so that I can stay healthy enough to take care of him. There's nothing physically wrong with DS - his ped checked him out.

TIA

Nita

[egoldber]

I haven't read Pantley, but one thing to try is introducing a lovey of some type. Or is he already attached to something, a blankie, a bear or something? Sarah's night sleep improved dramatically when she started using her "lambie" at night. Basically, the transitional object helps them to self-soothe at night. Of course, now I live in fear of losing lambie, but its a small price to pay for decent sleep most nights. :)

Edited to add: One thing to think about also is trying an earlier bedtime. I know it seems completely counterintuitive, but it does work for us. If a baby gets overtired, they have a harder time going to sleep and their overall sleep quality as not as good. So try putting him to bed 30 minutes earlier and see if that helps.

Good luck!!

[COElizabeth]

Nita,

Right at 9 months, James went from waking up once or twice a night to the pattern you describe (I don't even know how many times he woke up, but a LOT). He also had a few nights when he would wake up around 2 and not go back to sleep for a couple of hours, no matter what I did. It was also taking hours to get him to sleep for each nap and bedtime. It was awful, so I know exactly what you are going through.

I did buy Pantley's book, and while I didn't read every word, I think I got the gist of it. You start off by making a log of sleep patterns throughout the day and night and noting what activities you do in the couple of hours before bed, how you get baby back to sleep, etc. The "solution" is basically to gradually get the baby to soothe himself back to sleep. If you are nursing back to sleep, you take the baby off a little early, then pat his back and see if he goes to sleep. If he cries, you nurse some more and try again another time, until you are successfully getting him to sleep without the nipple in his mouth. Then you work up to having the baby stay in his bed with you just patting his back, etc., and not feeding him at night.

I can't say the book really helped me much, because for one thing I was so tired I could barely keep my log (she acknowledges that you have to get even more tired to solve your problem!), and the taking baby off early never worked for me. I could do that fine, but when I put him down, he would cry a few minutes later. And I was usually not nursing to sleep, just nursing to "relaxed," and for a very short time to start with, so it was hard to cut the time down.

A lot of her ideas seemed to be ones I had heard before, but you might find some new things to try. I can't remember all her ideas right now.

James is still waking up 2-3 times a night most nights (in a 12 hour span), but he seems to have outgrown that horrible pattern of the constant waking. It lasted several weeks, but then he gradually got better. We did let him CIO a few times for a short time (10 minutes or so) to get him to sleep faster than the 3 hours it was taking, and that worked pretty well. I still always go to him when he wakes at night, though (he never just cries for a few minutes and goes back to sleep). Very occasionally he now slept for an 8 or even 12 hour stretch (like 3 times!).

I agree with Beth that the earlier bedtime is worth trying, but I am skeptical about it, because I have had days where we got in perfect naps and a super-early bedtime, with no appreciable difference in night sleep. Sometimes it might work, but not always.

Dr. Jay Gordon's web site has a similar "no-cry" approach to Pantley's, and you might print it out. It is a little more concrete (x number of days do this, etc.).

It will get better, but boy is this pattern hard to deal with! Sorry for the disjointed reply. Fussy baby in the background - I can't concentrate well right now! I hope you get sleep soon!

Elizabeth, Mom to James, 9-20-02

[puglucy]

I found her book really frustrating. She makes things very complicated, with lots of special names & routines, etc. Even the sleep log she suggests is so complicated -- it's just common sense to write down times of naps & night wakings, but the way she lays it out made me tired just to read it. And I found it all very anecdotal.

On the other hand, if it works -- great! It just didn't for me. Another one to try is Sleeping Through the Night by Jodi Mindell.

good luck!


Lucy
mama to Alex 3/18/03

[christic]

I haven't read Pantley so can't be any help there but really just wanted to send you some support. I remember being a VERY smug mother to my wonderfully sleeping 3 mo old, wondering what all this fuss was about sleep. But for me, most of my friends, and a lot of people I read about on this board the heavy duty nightwaking didn't start up until the second half of the first year, hitting a real peak during the 9 mo - 1 yr mark where you guys are now. It's hard, and I haven't found any book out there that adequately addresses the problem. I'm now in search of info on a very early rising toddler, with little luck there either.

Anyway I posted what we eventually did to solve the nightwaking problem in answer to a post on Baby 411 so won't get into it here, (sort of a cross between Dr. Jay Gordon and Weissbluth--sure to anger someone!)

But good luck and try to keep yourself healthy!

Christi

[lizajane]

co-sleeping isn't for me, but if you are not already, maybe it would help now? you both might get more rest.

[nitaghei]

Beth,

We've tried both of these alternatives. He has no lovey - he has exhibited no attachment to any object whatsoever. I offered a variety of objects - one at a time, over the last two months - a couple of different blankies, a soft toy, and even a Darling Diapers burpcloth and wipe. I had some hopes of the Darling Diapers wipe (don't laugh - it was this yummy velour one), but no such luck. He doesn't even care about his pacifier much any more.

About the bedtime - we usually start winding down at 7pm and he's in bed by 7.30 pm. We tried pushing it earlier on weekends,so he's in bed by 7 pm, but it seems to make no difference. Realistically, it's hard to go any earlier than 7pm on weeknights, because we (DS and I) don't get home until 6 pm and it takes about an hour to do his evening routine (nurse, solid food, change for the night, read a book, nurse).

He does sleep pretty well (usually) until about 11.30 pm, and then starts waking frequently. At first I thought it might be teething related, but Motrin doesn't help either. :(

Nita

[nitaghei]

Elizabeth,

Thanks! I'll check out Dr. Gordon's website. I'm getting a little tired of buying books that are not only not helpful, but leave me feeling that I'm a bad parent.

Thanks for the hope that there might be an end to this!! I was so desperate a couple of nights ago, that I succumbed to DH's idea of giving DS formula when he first woke up. BAAAAD idea - DS had an ounce of the stuff and then pitched a fit. It took me a lot longer to calm him down than if I'd just nursed him to begin with.

Nita

[nitaghei]

We were co-sleeping but that doesn't help any more, either. He actually sleeps somewhat better in his crib. SIGH

Nita

[nitaghei]

Thanks. Based on the responses, I'm going to hold off getting the book for now.

Nita

[nitaghei]

Got to go check out the 411 board! I never remember them.

Nita

[Torey]

Are our kids cousins or something? No kidding - we have the SAME problem. DD won't go to bed until 9, but then she wakes up screaming at 11 or 12, won't go back to bed until 2 am and then still wakes up several times the rest of the night. She is 9 months old and this has been going on forever. We did buy the Pantley book, but it honestly was complicated and hard to follow. I have tried to get her to co-sleep but she thinks that we are just playing around and keeps climbing all over me (not settling down to sleep, nor will she nurse in bed). I am in the same boat that you are as I am starting to feel so sick and tired all the time. Last night I ignored her once or twice when she woke up (about 1 hr after she had just eaten and gone to sleep) and even though she did cry, amazingly she settled down quickly and went back to sleep. I think tonight I'm going to try the same thing. I know there is no way she'll go the whole night without eating, but if I can just cut down to 2 times a night (plus getting her to bed earlier) I think things would be better. Maybe if you picked one time to let him cry (especially if it is very close to a recent feeding and you know there is no way he is hungry), he'll settle down and go back to sleep. A relative of ours gave us a Ferber book to borrow. I was all set to discount Ferber because I had heard he was a big CIO advocate, but he explained the sleep cycles and gave better advice than Pantley. Maybe you could check this one out from the library and see if it has anything you can use in it. It's called Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems.

[Sarah1]

Hi Nita,

I don't really have any new suggestions to add, but would say that I have read Pantley's book and you have probably done everything she advocates...her ideas are helpful, but fairly basic.

If poor Neel is waking up 12 times...ugh, I just feel for you. Only you know your child though, so it's hard for me to give suggestions. You may have already done this, but another idea is to wait a little longer before you go in when you hear him. Maybe give him a chance to settle down on his own...for example if you go in as soon as you hear him, maybe wait 3 minutes, then the next time 5 minutes...but, I don't know Neel so it might not work for you guys.

I feel for you as it is no fun being sleep-deprived and taking care of your little one.

[Andrea S]

Nita,

If you want to read her book I would be glad to send mine.

Andrea
mom to Andrew 8/14/02

[ralu]

I read Pantley but it didn't really help. Unfortunately, I don't think it's based on any scientific data. Some ideas may be good, but I found others contradictory with other things read in different books (for instance, she suggests substituting breast-to-sleep association with some other association --- e.g. song or special words; unfortunately, this new association will still prevent the baby to fall asleep on his own.)

Raluca

[nohomama]

I guess I'm the lone wolf in saying that I believe Pantley's book is worth a read. Dan and I read the part of the book that pertains to older infants when Lola was about 14 monthes old. Pantley's ideas aided us in developing our own method to help Lola sleep better. Some of her ideas may well be common sense or found in other sources but as a sleep deprived parents common sense wasn't always at the forefront of our minds and neither of us had the time or energy to read more than a few sleep books. I would also add that I personally didn't find her suggestions complicated or hard to follow. This may be because, as I said, we used her suggestions as a starting point in creating our own method geared specifically towards our daughter and didn't follow them to the letter.

For us, one of Pantley's most valuable suggestions was to keep a daily log of Lola's sleep, activities, and food intake. Unlike other posters, this was not something I had thought to do on my own. I found the exercise enlightening and that my perception of what Lola's days were like was different that what they were like in reality. And this was despite the fact that I was the person taking care of Lola the majority of the time.

As for the previous poster's point about one association being replaced with another, that is in essence true, however we didn't find that the new association hindered Lola's ability to fall asleep on her own in any way. I our case, the special words and music acted as cues that helped Lola recognize when it was time to sleep rather than becoming something that was an absolute necessity in order for sleep to happen as nursing had been.

One other thing worth mentioning is that this is not a book that made me feel like a bad parent. I found her writing to be full of understanding and encouragement, almost to a fault.

[nitaghei]

Thanks everyone. I think I might try out the Dr Gordon approach for the next couple of weeks and see how it goes. And check to see if my local library has Pantley's book.

BUT: (DRUM ROLL please!)

Here's my inspiration for the day - which hit about 4.30 am:

A couple of people have said that they found an increased number of night wakings at around 9 months of age. Is it possible that this phenomenon is related to separation anxiety, which shows up at that age? Neel's been exhibiting some separation anxiety during the day - not too bad, but it's there.

I freely admit that all my past experience with separation anxiety has been with dogs (virtually all rescued dogs exhibit some degree of separation anxiety). And I remembered that Nicholas Dodman,in "The Dog Who Loved Too Much," had a case study of a dog who couldn't sleep - and wouldn't let its owner sleep, either. Sound familiar? :) His diagnosis was - you guessed it - separation anxiety!

If that's the case, at least it gives a starting point in considering the problem.

So - what do you guys think?

Nita

[nohomama]

Nita,

You may well be right. You and your husband know Neel the best. Let your intuition be your guide. You may end up feeling differently somewhere down the road but your observations about your child are far more valuable than those of anyone else on this board.

If separation anxiety is the crux of Neel's sleep problems then perhaps what worked for us will work for you as well. Here's a link to a thread were I described what we did in detail.

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=37&topic_id=5100&mesg_id=5100&page=&topic_page=3

I wrote this post almost a year ago when the details of what we did were more fresh in my mind. You should check out my post if you want specifics but basically we made the descision to stay in the room with Lola rather than leaving her by herself to cry. I'm merely suggesting giving this technique, for lack of a better word, or some variation of this technique a try. It may end up being nothing more than a load of crap for you or it could be a good way of helping Neel find sleep and sooth his anxiety.

Good luck. No matter what you do, rest assured this will get better.

[Sarah1]

Nita,

I was going to say that--from what I have read, a lot of times btwn 9-12 mos, from what I've read, babies do show changes in their sleep patterns. I did notice a few changes when Audrey hit 9 mos...particulary in her naps, though. She really protested. Also, she started waking up SUPER early (before 5 AM)...unfortunately I found that the earlier I went in she kept waking up early. So, I decided not to go in 'til 6 AM (this I read from Weissbluth), and although it did involve some protest crying, after a couple days, wouldn't you know it, she slept until 6 or later.

So now, we have a rule which is do not go in until 6 AM! (unless she is sick, or something is wrong of course!)

GOOD LUCK!!!!

[daisymommy]

Oooh! I loved Pantley's book! we were cosleeping, and Josh was taking NO NAPS at 5 months old! With the help of "The No Cry sleep Solution" we got Josh to start taking 2--two hour naps! We were able to get him to eventually sleep through the night (without CIO) while still cosleeping. And when we ready, at 10 months, we transitioned him to his crib (using her methods), and he slept in the crib the first night we tried it, and he slept straight through the night!

I would still be a walking Zombie, and I would have one cranky no-napping baby if it weren't for this book. I would give it ***** 5 stars!

[Rachels]

Oh, rereading that post makes me so tired! Abby was nine months old when I wrote it. I do think there's something up at that age! Also, it's so clear to me that if she feels well, she sleeps. Cutting her teeth made a huge and immediate difference in bedtime. When her reflux is less active, she also sleeps much better.

Nita, I'm not comfortable with sleep training, and even I considered it. It's SO hard to be exhausted. It's even harder to have other people suggest to you that you wouldn't be in this mess if only you were a better parent. I understand how tough it is. So I just want to offer some support. With some time, I've come to see that nightwaking is a pretty common baby phenomenon. It's hard, but it's what they do. Some people have success with sleep training, others don't, but babies are not programmed to act like adults. I think that if you don't want to listen to him cry, you don't have to. You're respecting your instincts and mothering him well. This will get better. FWIW, I have never wished I had let Abby CIO. Just the opposite, in fact-- even at my most tired, I can see that she cries because something is up and she needs me. Often, for her, that something is pain, and sometimes it's loneliness or fear. I'm very glad that I've chosen to be there for her in those moments. And I take it day by day. Maybe when she's older and has more teeth (she still only has two) and her reflux is under control, we'll be ready to think about other ways to help her self-comfort. But in the meantime, I'm glad that she trusts me to be there for her, and I don't regret that choice.

Also, as I've said before, all sleep training is not created equal. There's a difference between leaving a baby alone to cry for two hours and comforting them even while insisting that they figure out how to get themselves to sleep. What Sarah did with Lola was very gentle and loving and attentive. Lola might have been miffed about it, but she couldn't have been scared or lonely. I've seen her at bedtime, and this is a kid that will come to her mom and say, "I want to go to sleep now." And then she does. So if you're certain your baby isn't hurting, something like what Sarah did might be worth trying. If you're not comfortable with CIO, that approach is much softer, and had a great result.

Hang in there! You're a committed mom, and it will pay off for you and especially for Neel.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[egoldber]

I think that is a definite possibility. That's why I suggested the lovie, because a transitional object can really help with that. Also, I think that at 9 months, many babies start approcaching a number of major developmental milestones. I know that my DD's sleep always suffers when approaching a major milestone.

So I think you're definitely onto something there!!

[nitaghei]

Sarah and Rachel,

Thank you!! I printed out the thread, and there's a lot there for me to chew over to figure out modifications to work for us.

So far, I've never let Neel CIO. I've been tempted to a couple of times, though!

He does take decent naps (1 hour in the morning, about 2 hours in the afternoon, and about 20 minutes in the car on the way home). His care-giver at daycare is very good about being consistent about his routine. We do have a bed time routine, and he does go to bed long before he's fussing or miserable (except last night - when DH was supposed to get him ready for bed at 7 pm, and didn't start until 7.45 pm. GRRRRR).

The one thing which I definitely need to change is waiting until he's fully asleep before putting him in the crib. Last night I actually restrained myself from picking him up when he woke up at 2.00 am. He'd nursed at 12.45 am, so I knew he wasn't hungry. I just stood there and kept patting him, and he fell back asleep - without any further crying. I ended up sleeping in his room, on the floor - again - which isn't doing a whole lot for my back!!

This constant waking is really getting me down. When he's asleep, I can't fall asleep because I'm stressed out, waiting for him to wake up. I don't think I managed to sleep for more than 2 hours at a stretch in months. And I HAVE to work on an article that is supposed to be the basis of my "job talk" - I have interviews with various law schools lined up for later this month. I'm almost tempted to just sit in DS's room with my laptop, and just forget about trying to sleep after 2 am. But I'm not sure how sharp my analysis is going to be under the circumstances!!

Nita