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jojo2324
10-25-2003, 08:58 PM
I have some questions about my own birth experience. Odd, perhaps, since nobody here was *there*, but I wonder what others think?

I got the epi at 8. Now, the epi helped some, but I could still feel contractions. I could feel sensation in my legs. Is this normal? After a while, I could feel EVERYTHING. (It was taking some time.) I was in a LOT of pain just before it came time to push, and the nurses thought (and I was happy to agree) that I should receive a *second* epi because I was fighting my body too much and would accomplish nothing that way. I thought this was odd considering how much I was dilated (9), but then I was hurting.

I had not eaten for nearly 19 hours. I was exhausted and dehydrated. I had forbidden DH from speaking. I was pretty out of it. I remember the anesthesiologist running in the room (he had been paged nearly an hour before, but he was the only anesth. in the hospital and there was an emergency), and that's it. I DO remember thinking that I should just squat, gosh darn it! (Perhaps I thought a little harsher than that.) But I was so whipped, I didn't have the energy. I honestly don't think it was the epi that stopped me from squatting; it was the thought of having to actually DO it that stopped me.

I have thought since then that I DID receive a second epidural. However, in speaking to my mother several months ago and DH as well, turns out I didn't!! Way to be lucid! The anesthesiologist wouldn't give it to me because I was too far along.

Soooo...while this was definitely a medicated birth (I also got two shots of Nubain), it felt pretty dang natural the last three hours of it (2 hours pushing). I in no way contend that I had a completely natural birth, but I do think the birth itself was natural. Does that make sense? (I won't be hurt if others disagree!)

If anything, the idea that I've done it (even if that idea is mine alone) gives me hope that I'll be able to go epi-free with Little Miss.

elvisfan
10-25-2003, 09:08 PM
Epidurals work in different ways for different people, I think. With my first dd, I felt no pain at the tail end. With my second dd, there was pain..but a very unique pain......not a "Oh my God, kill me now" pain but a "Oh my God, I'm going to tear in half" pain that lasted as quickly as it began.
Just keep your options open. Best of luck

Rachels
10-25-2003, 09:21 PM
Epidurals are a mixed bag. For one thing, they don't work nearly as often or nearly as completely as they're reputed to. For another, they're horribly overused in the US, and they carry risks which nobody really talks about. Among those risks is a wildly increased overusage of other interventions, some of which (like continuous electronic fetal monitoring) have been demonstrated over and over and over to be useless at best and dangerous at worst. An epidural is good technology, but it's technology. It is vastly overused for what should be normal birth, and it can make the whole thing go south when it otherwise might not have. Sometimes it's very helpful, and it's MUCH safer for cesarean delivery than general anesthesia. It's good that it exists. But for normal birth, epidurals are problematic in ways that don't get discussed very often. (If you're interested in the studies on this, a good starting place is with Henci Goer's books. She summarizes the literature, and it's incredible how consistent it is, and how OPPOSITE US hospital practices are to what's recommended.)

I DO think you can have a natural birth if you want one. Pushing will probably go substantially faster the second time, too, especially if you don't have the epidural. Also, somebody should give you something to eat and drink. Withholding food and liquids during labor has been named by the W.H.O. as a practice that is "clearly harmful and should be eliminated." You're working hard, and you need sustenance. You'll have an easier pushing phase if you have some fuel in your system.

If you want a natural birth, you've got to have support. Get a doula if you possibly can. If you can't afford one, call DONA or ALACE and see if there are any doulas in your area working on certification. They will often attend births without charge. Having a doula at my birth was absolutely essential.

If you need a cheerleader or just information or just sources for information, you know how to reach me. :)

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

jojo2324
10-25-2003, 09:54 PM
Oh, I agree about the food and monitoring thing. I WAS able to think the whole time that it was pretty asinine that they wouldn't let me eat or drink anything...How counter-intuitive is that? Do you think people run marathons without needing some hydration? Also, we were in the midst of a triple-digit heat wave. It was HOT.

I also begged for them to take the belt off of me. It was pointless anyway because Gannon kept shifting. It was so tight and uncomfortable. But the nurse refused.

I do think my labor experience would have been much better had I been allowed to eat or drink. I remember trying to suck on the washcloth DH used to swab my face, which is really gross in hindsight. :9 I also went in way too early.

Thanks for the tip on the doulas. I am going to start making some calls on Monday. I suppose I should have started this much earlier. At the very least, even if this birth isn't natural, I am hoping for it to more enjoyable, in terms of my lucidity and comfort level.

This could all be moot, because maybe Little Miss will decide to arrive in the car? My mother made it to the hospital with barely minutes to spare for her second birth. My brother required a police escort. Lucky my parents got pulled over for speeding! :D

KathyO
10-25-2003, 09:58 PM
From what I hear, your odds are very good of having a much easier time of it the second time around. My obstetrician (an easygoing, non-interventionist type) has cheerfully described it as, "Now you have an "educated uterus" - it'll figure out what it has to do a lot faster this time!" (Instead of putzing around for 36 hours of contractions every 7-8 minutes...) So the odds are better that you won't hit the pushing phase so completely exhausted this time.

At the risk of getting landed on from a great height, I will tell you that I have read research which shows that babies of epidural moms are less likely to breastfeed successfully in the delivery room, and hence miss out on what seems to be a critical learning opportunity for them. After this point they often go into post-birth sleepiness, and it can be a lot harder to get them going properly. As well, DD scored 10 on her Apgar, and the nurses told DH that this was, in their experience, much more common in babies of non-epidural moms.

However, I still return to my Dad's overriding dictum; the number one law of parenting is survival of the parent!! You do what you gotta do to get through.

Was your birth "natural"? Damned if I can say. DH says that as long as the kid didn't come out of a Borg maturation chamber, it's natural!

Cheers,

KathyO

KathyO
10-25-2003, 10:04 PM
>This could all be moot, because maybe Little Miss will decide to arrive in the car? My mother made it to the hospital with barely minutes to spare for her birth. My brother required a police escort. Lucky my parents got pulled over for speeding! :D

Hoo-ee!! My Gran lived in the country, and being a new widow, had to be driven to the hospital by a visiting city friend who was unfamiliar with the back roads. They got lost a couple of times. She did make it to the hospital in time, but all they got off her was her underwear. It was December, and she delivered while still wearing her hat, coat, mitts, scarf and boots!

Tell Shawn to brush up on his baby-catching technique!

KathyO

khakismom
10-25-2003, 10:10 PM
ITA with Kathy's first sentence above. With Kathleen the last part of labor seemed to be a big, giant blur. She was sunny-side up and my pushing wasn't doing much. I remember the doc telling me that he was going to be using forceps to get her out. I said OK but thought, no way, I can do this. Apparently as I was pushing like a banshee, he reached in and spun her around and then she popped out. But like I said, a huge blur. With Ellen, I had more pain because the epi was late (so I only had it for 1.5 hours before I started pushing), but I was much more lucid. I made sure to really focus on what was happening around me and to me. Instead of laying back to push, I sat up and really watched what was happening. Plus, I only had to push 4 times and out she came. :)

My point to all this rambling is that I think you are so much more aware of everything the second time, because you know what to expect. Hope that makes sense! :)

And whatever you decide, you'll do great! :)

Calmegja
10-25-2003, 10:16 PM
I had epidurals with all four of my children, despite loud protestations to the contrary prior to my first delivery. My daughters were uncomplicated deliveries, with easy pushing out, and lots of snuggling and nursing in the delivery room. We had none of the reported sleepiness, which I did think was not so much a feature of current epidurals, but rather older ones. My mom reported excessive sleepiness in my brother and myself when we were born, due to her epidural, but modern epidurals aren't the same, and I was under the impression that the research reflected the difference. Or maybe I just hung out at ObGYn net too much.... :-)

I had perfect epidurals, in my opinion, I felt in control, and could push without trouble, but was not uncomfortable. Each delivery was faster, roughly halving with each successive delivery. There could be jokes made about shooting down a barrel by the time we're at #4, but I'll leave it.... ;-)

My sons' deliveries were rougher, both born at 36/37 weeks. One had a tight nuchal cord, and an abrupting placenta and needed to be resuscitated, the other was born so quickly, he inhaled amniotic fluid on the way out, and had a touch of TTNS, and we were abrupting again...both had to spend time in the NICU, but we established breastfeeding early, and easily with both.

daisymommy
10-25-2003, 10:17 PM
I will tell you that I have read research which shows that babies of
>epidural moms are less likely to breastfeed successfully in
>the delivery room, and hence miss out on what seems to be a
>critical learning opportunity for them. After this point they
>often go into post-birth sleepiness, and it can be a lot
>harder to get them going properly.

I can totally vouch for this. I felt no pain up until 9cm. Don't hate me, but I felt NOTHING! Then I stood up to use the bathroom, Joshua's arm slipped down in front of his head and got stuck, and the whole world fell apart. I was in sheer agony! Even though I was at 9cm. they could see I was in terrible pain, and were going to have to do something about his stray arm--so, I got an epidural. I was so mad, because I was almost ready to push, and hadn't had any meds., and now this! So, I got the epi., and after Josh was born, he acted drugged up. It was awful. He wouldn't even try to latch on for two days. He just lay next to my breast, and woudln't even root instinctively like most other babies do. I really feel that was the beginning of the end of our short breastfeeding relationship. I so hope I can have a natural child birth next time. Babies, keep your arms and legs inside the car at all times, until it reaches a stop! :);)

jojo2324
10-25-2003, 10:17 PM
>
>Tell Shawn to brush up on his baby-catching technique!
>


LOL, I'm just hoping he doesn't pass out or decide to go for another one of his burger-and-beer excursions this time. From the moment we found out we were preggo again I've been telling him exactly where his tush is going to be the whole time I'm in labor. And it ain't out to dinner!

For those of you who aren't aware...DH was soooooo hungry during Gannon's delivery that he left to get a burger. With two of his friends. At a restaurant. OUTSIDE the hospital limits. When I was at 5 cms. Because he would have passed out FOR SURE. Now, he's not a doof, but I will NEVER forgive him for that. And he will NEVER do that again. (Though I will admit I love having that story in my arsenal...I zing it out there every once in a while and people just stare at him with gaping mouths.)

Maybe I'll use my nesting energies to construct a nice big doghouse as warning...}(

elvisfan
10-25-2003, 10:24 PM
>At the risk of getting landed on from a great height, I will
>tell you that I have read research which shows that babies of
>epidural moms are less likely to breastfeed successfully in
>the delivery room, and hence miss out on what seems to be a
>critical learning opportunity for them. After this point they
>often go into post-birth sleepiness, and it can be a lot
>harder to get them going properly. As well, DD scored 10 on
>her Apgar, and the nurses told DH that this was, in their
>experience, much more common in babies of non-epidural moms.
>
>However, I still return to my Dad's overriding dictum; the
>number one law of parenting is survival of the parent!! You
>do what you gotta do to get through.
>
>Was your birth "natural"? Damned if I can say. DH says that
>as long as the kid didn't come out of a Borg maturation
>chamber, it's natural!
>
>Cheers,
>
>KathyO
Ok.....I had epidurals and my babies both nursed quite well. And they had very high Apgars as well. Also-and I'm not trying to come across rudely but-do any of you remember your Apgar scores? I rest my case.

stillplayswithbarbies
10-25-2003, 11:00 PM
Well, I wouldn't call your birth "natural" in the true sense of the word. But you did push that baby out all on your own. And you can certainly do it with the next one.

Read some of the books I suggested in the other thread. And think about your first delivery and figure out what things you would want to change in this one. (hint - eat something!)

Without all those interventions that you had - and being able to squat when your instincts tell you to - you should have a much easier time of it. If you hadn't been trapped on your back because of the monitoring (the worst position to help a baby move down and out), if you hadn't been starved and dehydrated (causing you to be too tired to squat etc.), if you hadn't been out of it from the Nubain (confusing your instincts), your labor likely would have been shorter and easier. You might have just squatted and pushed that baby right out, just as your instincts were telling you to do.

Oh and don't forget . . . girls are usually smaller than boys, so you've got that working for you too. :)

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

pritchettzoo
10-25-2003, 11:39 PM
This thread reminded me of the video on pain medication intervention we watched in childbirth class. These couples are going up to class in the elevator, and the DH of one couple states that he wants his wife to deliver naturally because that's how it has always been done. Later when they are in class, the same DH says that they're having a c-section! Bad editing/writing on the part of the cheesy video, but it gave us a laugh then AND when my DH said, "Aw, don't you want to do this natural?" when I was getting an epidural before my c-section.

I think that with your self-control in not killing DH for the beer-and-burger stunt, you can do whatever you set your mind to!

Anna
Mama to Gracie (9/16/03)

AngelaS
10-26-2003, 04:45 PM
My first birth was WAY overmedicated. (Preeclampsia+mag sufate+epidural) It was not fun. My midwife shut off my epidural after about 90 minutes of pushing. She called it motivation. LOL

With my second I wanted to go natural. I read a lot on natural pain remedies. The book that was the greatest inspiration was "The Baby Catcher" by Peggy Vincent. It really motivated me and showed me I COULD do it without drugs.

I did. It was truly one of the most AWESOME, empowering and most incredible things I have EVER done. :) I had my water broken at 5 pm and Gabrielle was born about 2 am after about 5 pushes. I would do it again in a HEARTBEAT!! It totally beat the first delivery and the epidural headache too! :D

You can do it!!

KathyO
10-26-2003, 07:16 PM
Hey, I'm not campaigning against epidurals here... I am just adding in what I have read (which was about tendencies, not 100% certainties) and what I was told by the folks who did the delivery, but I hope that my last two paragraphs make it clear that every case is different and I would not presume to tell someone whether what they were doing was "right" or "wrong". If I have a case to rest, it's that.

Cheers,

KathyO

heva
10-26-2003, 07:45 PM
I believe many hospitals insist on monitoring if you have an epidural. And many places, including the hospital where Paula and I delivered that is very non-interventional, do not really allow you to get out of bed once the epidural is started.

As for eating/drinking, I had the best intentions of staying well-hydrated and fed: ate breakfast in my bathtub between contractions before going to the hospital...and then managed to (sorry TMI) completely evacuate my GI tract from both ends after my water broke :o Oh well. Hospital food NEVER tasted so good as after DS was born (and believe me, as a resident, I know hospital food...)!

ethansmom
10-26-2003, 07:56 PM
What is it with men and food? Once DH found out the Wendy's in our hospital closed at 2 a.m., he made four trips. We're talking four combo meals between 9p.m and 2 a.m.!

ethansmom
10-26-2003, 08:03 PM
I guess I'm confused why you think you can't squat if you are monitored. I didn't have any pain meds, but was monitored since I was given pitocin. I didn't labor at all on my back. The majority of the time I stood next to the bed and I spent all three (!!!) hours of transition on my knees, leaning over the head of the bed. I also squatted for the first part of pushing. However, I did deliver at a fairly progressive hospital. If it's not too late, shop around for your delivery!

lizajane
10-26-2003, 08:07 PM
while i think everyone on this thread would agree that what is important is a healthy baby and a healthy mom, i am a little frustrated by the negative remarks about epidurals. i know that no one means any insult or harm, but i feel a little bit defensive and a little like i need to stand up for we epidural users.

my son started out at -1 station, so he was locked and loaded and trying to get out at 3cm. it hurt like CRAZY starting at hour 3, which is when i went to 4 minutes apart. and the beginning of hour 3 is the first time i threw up.

when my epidural wore off at 10cm, i DID get a second dose. why? because i was in agony and PUKING MY BRAINS OUT. now, how well would the pushing have gone for me if i had maintained this state of continuous vomiting?

my biggest fear for labor was that i was going to throw up the whole time. that all i would remember from my son's birth was vomiting and vomiting and vomiting. and lemme tell ya... if i had not gotten another hit on the epidural, i don't think i would have been able to focus on the pushing, which only took about 30-45 minutes.

SO- back to the topic at hand. i think it is great that you were able to have a "natural pushing part of birth" and hope that you are able to have little miss sans epidural if you so choose. but i also think that if you decide that you would like to try an epidural again, you might enjoy the way you can focus on the pushing the way i enjoyed it.

and i DO respect you amazing women who are able to have a medication free labor/birth. i was interested in going that way, but when i got there, i decided that i just didn't want to puke anymore. forgive me.
(and schuyler's apgars were 8 and 9.)\

best of luck for a healthy baby and healthy mom, above all else!!

egoldber
10-26-2003, 08:38 PM
I think that if there's one thing I've learned about you Joanne, its that you're a tough mama who can do what she has to when she wants to! I think that your first birth is an incredible learning experience for all women. There are so many things I wish I could change, but I am trying to concentrate on how to make my next birth experience (whenever that is) a better one.

I think the key things have already been mentioned. To get the birth experience that YOU want, have a doula, be educated about your OB, your hospital, and about what can happen during labor and what you want to do in those situations (this is where my own ideas about birth fell by the wayside, since I ignored all the chapters entitled things like "When Things Go Wrong"...)

But to share, several mom in my playgroup have now gone on to have their second child. At least 2 of them have made it to the hospital with barely minutes to spare and NO time for the epidural! The rest made it with a few hours to spare, but things moved very quickly for them!

And I will say that I had an epidural with Sarah, even before the C-section loomed my way. I did it because I had a Pitocin induced labor and the pain was awful. But I did it with my eyes open, and I understood the risks. Many people don't seem to realize that an epidural is a medical procedure. And like any medical procedure it has risks. For example, my sister had headaches from her epidural for months after having her third child. But knowing that, I was willig to accept the risks.

And my epidural was dandy in the labor room, but when they increased the dosage for the C-section, I wasn't so lucky. In most TV shows they show the C-section mom happy and alert during the procedure. Not me. I was barely conscious, the anesthesiologist was very concerned about my oxygen levels and kept having to wake me up during the C-section. I barely remember seeing Sarah in the OR, and I couldn't hold her or nurse her for several hours because I was too woozy. Fortunately DH had our video camera, so I was able to "see" a lot of the things I missed, but for a lot of that video you can hear the anesthesiologist saying "Are you alright Mrs. G? Can you hear me? I think I've lost her again, more oxygen!" Not really terribly soothing stuff...

And then I had the itching from the morpheine that I thought would drive me insane! I almost scratched my back off in the hospital. Honestly, that was worse than my C-section incision!

Here's some general info about epidurals. Its from a VBAC site, but the info is still relvant: http://www.vbac.com/epidural.html

But I think its great that you want to do a natural birth next time. The more I read and learn, the more I am inclined to go that way myself next time, although I know I will have an uphill battle with DH and my own misgivings.

Good luck!

billysmommy
10-26-2003, 08:55 PM
ITA with Liza.....
I was interested in trying medication free labor/birth however my water broke at 4 pm and within 10 minutes my contractions were 2 minutes apart. When I wasn't having contractions I had unrelenting back pain and when I was having contractions I was puking. We got to the hospital at 5:30 (you gotta love rush-hour traffic outside Boston :)) and I got the epidural at 6:15. It was SUPER, I wasn't puking and while there was no pain I could still feel the contractions somewhat. I was 3 cm when I got the epidural and in an hour when they checked me again I was 10 cm and Billy's head was "right there". I could definately feel when I needed to push even with the epidural but without pain. 30 minutes of pushing and Billy was born, no episiotomy and 1 small tear. His Apgar's were 8 and 9 as well. If my labor is anywhere near like this when we have our 2nd baby I will definately have the epidural again.
I felt I was able to focus and enjoy his birth so much more with the epidural. The biggest thing is that everyone is healthy at the end :)

jojo2324
10-26-2003, 08:56 PM
Sorry, I certainly didn't mean to bring the epi vs. non-epi debate back up again.

I guess my biggest goal going into this delivery is remaining lucid. I know I keep using that word, but it's what applies. My biggest regret about Gannon's birth was that I was so out of it, I fell right asleep. I did nurse him immediately following birth, when he was put to my chest, but other than that, I can't tell you much. I don't like not knowing what happened to me, or what was happening around me, or what happened to my baby. That's a pretty big regret to have regarding your first born's birthday. Start writing out the Mother of the Year certificate, because I *think* one of his Apgar scores was 9. I couldn't positively tell you. All I know is I slept for what felt like 5 seconds and it had been an hour. And then I had to move rooms and scarfed down a really tasty turkey breast sandwich. (Heather, hospital food WAS good! :9)

And I was focused on the pushing. But I was also rolling back in forth in bed and screaming. *I* even mentioned the words forceps and c-section just to get things moving because I couldn't take it anymore. I am in no way against an epidural. I went into Gannon's delivery hoping for little intervention, but no solid birth plan written out. And like I said in my initial post, the epi didn't really seem to help that much. I *wanted* that second epi; I even thought I got it! That's pretty indicative of how out of it I was.

As far as squatting is concerned, I DID want to do it. I just didn't have it in me. It wasn't because I was being monitored or was medicated; it was because I was beat.

And despite what others may think, I believe it was my exhaustion and hunger and dehydration that had me in that hazy state, not the presence of drugs. I guess that's the root of my question: did I truly deliver while medicated? Because, in my opinion, the drugs did NOTHING for me when it came down to when I most needed it. It certainly didn't feel like they were in my system. I'm sure many will disagree with that, and point to the drugs as the cause of my out-of-sorts-ness, but *I* don't think that's the case. If, after I received the epi, I felt much better and could concentrate, then I would sign up for it walking into the hopsital this time around. But since that didn't seem to be the case, I might try to hold off this time. Because it didn't seem to make much difference.

And I know that this time it's going to be different. Hopefully the delivery will be a little faster. Hopefully I won't go to the hospital as soon as I did with Gannon. I probably could have stayed home for another 12 hours and eaten and taken a bath. Hopefully I WILL be more aware, not only because I'll eat/drink, but also because I've done it once before. And I know I don't want to do it that way again. My regret about Gannon's birth is my blueprint for his sister's birth. And my regret isn't the presence of drugs, but my lack of awareness during the experience, especially at the end when I needed it most.

jojo2324
10-26-2003, 09:05 PM
What I couldn't understand is why he had to leave the hospital at all to get some food!!! Seriously, what was he thinking? There's a stinkin' cafeteria there! Suck it up and eat some less than palatable food. He claimed later that he didn't want to make me feel bad, eating while I couldn't. Whatever, eat out in the hallway. Just stay close.

Grrr. x(

lizajane
10-26-2003, 09:18 PM
i packed a snack bag for jeffrey with lots of his favorites. no need to go anywhere! just an idea...

my epidural experience, as i stated previously, was the opposite of yours. my incredible nurse adjusted it until i felt no pain. she helped me go from lying on one side to the other when it got a little weak on one side. she gave me the second dose when the puking started. i felt no pain AT ALL during the pushing. she told me when to push and when to stop based on the internal (couldn't even feel it) monitor on mr baby's head. and i DID FEEL my baby come whooshing out. which was excellent! i was waaaaaaaay more numb than anyone else i know, but I DID FEEL the whooshing. so i don't feel that i missed out on a thing. and i did nurse right after he was born. and if you want to know how i felt after the birth, i will send you a picture of me smiling with the grandparents and schuyler.