Sleeping through the night - I don't get it?!?

[lizamann]

Here's some background before I get to my question:

So I finally succombed to dh's wishes to try the CIO method on our almost 7 month old. I was really resistant, but co-sleeping had been taking it's toll on me and DH. Until last week DD was co-sleeping and nursing several times a night (at least every 2 hours, and latched on pretty much from 4 until 6 am.) With CIO, she pretty much followed the textbook story - 45 min of crying the first night, 20 min. the second, 5 min. the 3rd, and a couple of nights since then have had about 3 seconds of protest. I'm really surprised about how well it's worked.

For several months previously I had been trying gentle methods to get her in the crib. Nursing her to sleep and putting her in the crib bought me only an hour, on average, before she woke up again. Now that we've done CIO, she stays asleep until 6 am. I just don't get it.

So here's the question: Why would she wake up when nursing to sleep but not after CIO? I find it hard to believe the Weissbluth line of reasoning that babies learn to soothe themselves to sleep. What other "skills" do they learn in 3 days? So that doesn't cut it with me. I just hope we haven't caused any permanent neurological damage!

I hope I won't be starting a war here, but I am just wondering if there are any good explanations for why this works.

[AngelaS]

I think they simply learn a way to soothe themselves to sleep. Before, she needed to nurse to sleep but after you put her to bed (knowing her tummy was full and she didn't 'need' anything) she found another way to be content and fall asleep. :)

Glad to hear you're all getting good sleep now! It makes life SO much better! :D

[peanut4us]

I'm just curious because we are "experimenting" with some alternate methods too... Does she still wake up to eat in the night at all? Or are you just using CIO to get her to sleep the initial time? If she wakes in the night do you always/never/sometimes feed her?

We've been doing a CIO as suggested by Burton White's book The First Three Years. He says at night to put the child in the crib tell them you love them and say good night. Then walk out and close the door. WHen the baby cries go in, don't pick them up but immediately respond and see if they are OK. Say I love you, goodnight, leave and close the door... note the time and go back in after 30 minutes... Lather, rinse, repeat. She actually usually goes to sleep pretty easily... it's the 1500 times a night that she wakes up that are tricky.

We've done this method for the last 2 nights... the first night she woke up once where she cried for about 45 minutes (with us checking on her at 30 min) and then woke up 3 other times cried for a few minutes and back out. Last night she woke up once about an hour after we put her down and cried for about a minute... then she woke up at 10 and 3:30. Of course she was up for the day at 5:30 :(

I fed her at 10 and 3:30. I kind of arbitrarily set a minimum time that she needs to go before she can eat--usually around 4 hours. But then I started thinking... I wonder if she is confused as to why I feed her sometimes and others I just tell her good night... you know??? So should you just stop feeding them? If you do and they still wake how long is "sleeping through the night for an 8.5 month old? 6 hours without food? 8? 10? 12? If you say 6, then again she'll wonder how come I get fed sometimes but not others? Hmmm. Very tricky. Thoughts?

Let me just say that she is NOT going to sleep through on her own. I know her little temperment and that is NOT going to happen.

Edited to say: Sorry I hijacked your thread Beth... and didn't even repond. Oops! My answer to your predicament is that I think they really do learn to self-soothe.

[jesseandgrace]

OMG, I am in the same situation as your before. My daughter is six months and eating every two hours at night at least, and then much more after about 5:00am. I think I may need to try this as it seems to have worked so well for you. What book do I need?

Jennifer

[MartiesMom2B]

Beth:

I think children really do learn to self soothe. What I've noticed with Martie is that she didn't sleep through the night until she sucked her thumb (a habit, that I'm sure I'll have to break later on). But I know that she's soothing herself with the thumb, because I've seen her fall over trying to crawl and she'll cry and starting sucking the thumb and then she's back to her self. DH was laughing at me b/c at first I was upset that she wouldn't go to me for comfort but her thumb. But I've gotten over that.

If Martie cries in the middle of the night now I still have DH get her and bring her to bed, I nurse then I make DH bring her back to her room. Now that she's been sleeping through the night on a regular basis for about 5 months, I do get her if she cries because its a pretty rare occurence.

Sonia
Proud Mommy to Martie 4/6/03

[lizajane]

we used CIO successfully also. i realize it isn't for everyone, and i respect that. but wow, when it works, it works FAST.

i strongly believe that you have not done any damage. i feel quite the opposite. i believe you have taken the fear of the crib away from your child. she may have been upset for a few nights, but very quickly realized that no harm would come to her if she were alone in her bed. i feel that you have allowed her the opportunity to learn to self soothe, which is a skill she will use in all kinds of situations for years.

here is what it think- when she nursed to sleep, if she was slightly roused during the 45 minute sleep cycle "switch," she would get scared and cry for you. now, if she wakes slightly, she just thinks, "whew! i am still tired. i want to keep sleeping." instead of "where am i? how did i get here? i don't know what to do now!"

as i said, i respect others who do not believe in CIO. i did not believe in it until i got to the end of my rope! but i am so glad that i allowed my child the opportunity to learn how to be comfortable in his own bed. (and like martie, he is a thumb sucker, too.)

i was just talking to a woman last night who said her toddler doesn't go to bed until 11pm sometimes because she will fight for HOURS at bedtime. the mom said she rocked her to sleep until she was old enough that she climbed out of the rocking chair and ran away. she had to go home to help her husband chase this child around the house to get her into bed. i came home to find my husband working at the kitchen table, because my son when into his crib after a story and a song and went to sleep immediately.

[lizamann]

The first night our plan was to go in periodically and tell her we love her, etc, during that initial falling asleep period, but it just seemed to rile her up again and make her really mad. After doing that twice, we stopped, and she fell asleep pretty quickly. We've been really lucky that she hasn't really been waking after that. CIO in the middle of the night would be tough - don't know if I could do that. She's been in her crib until 6 am 3 nights now, and the other 3 nights either dh or I missed her, so went to check on her and bring her back!

I don't know what to do about the sometimes feeding, sometimes not. I think setting a minimum time is a good plan. Maybe you can start increasing that time. Best of luck with that!

[jojo2324]

>here is what it think- when she nursed to sleep, if she was
>slightly roused during the 45 minute sleep cycle "switch," she
>would get scared and cry for you. now, if she wakes slightly,
>she just thinks, "whew! i am still tired. i want to keep
>sleeping." instead of "where am i? how did i get here? i don't
>know what to do now!"

This perfectly describes Gannon. He would breathe a little too hard in his sleep and wake up. LOL, *I* could breathe a little too hard four rooms over and he would wake up. :) Actually, last night I went to check on him and the door squeaked as I opened it...It woke him up, so much so that he sat up and bonked his head on the FP Ocean Wonders Aquarium. I didn't go in all the way, but watched as he kind of rubbed his eyes and went back down to sleep. That NEVER would have happened a few months ago.

Granted, DS didn't sleep through the night more than 7 times before he was 15 months old. We co-slept and nursed up until that point. (And we still co-sleep on occasion.) By 15 months the only time he was nursing was once at night. I really think that he was conditioned to wake up because he was hungry. Maybe not even hungry, just used to food and suckling. So our goal was to eliminate that habit. Once we fully weaned, he stopped waking up. And, he does still wake up at night, but not EVERY night like he was.

I'm glad you're getting some rest...It makes a lot of difference. And I'm sure your baby is more rested too. Once Gannon got night time sleep down, his day time sleep patterns improved IMMENSELY. Like a different kid almost. I don't know why CIO works the way it does...It never worked for us, truth be told, but I wasn't diligent about it either.

[jennifer13]

My ped yesterday said a 6 month old should be able to go 8-10 hours without being fed at night. DD usually goes to sleep around 7, so I decided that I won't nurse before 3 am. If she wakes before then I let her cry for a few minutes and if she doesn't go back to sleep then DH goes in or I go in to soothe her, without picking her up. It worked fast. We're back down to one wake-up between 4-6am.

Jennifer
Mom to Norah 5/23/03

[Melanie]

"Why would she wake up when nursing to sleep but not after CIO?"

Because you have trained her that you will not come when she calls/cries, so why would she think that the middle of the night would be any different. I'm not trying to be harsh, just try to look at it from her point of view knowing only what she knows.

[AngelaS]

I don't think this is entirely true. I know when my baby was first sleeping thru the night and even now at 19 months, she will wake up at night and NOT call or cry at all. She will wake up, chatter a bit, resettle herself and then go back to sleep. If she needs me, then she cries or calls MaMa!

And nothing was said that if they cry you shouldn't GO to them in the middle of the night. I don't think any parent here wouldn't GO to their child if they cried in the middle of the night. Crying is different than if you hear your child wake, make some little noises and settle back in for sleep tho.

[lizajane]

i disagree. babies who learned to self soothe with sleep training still cry out during the day when they want attention. my baby cries when he wants something that he can't reach or when i take away an object he shouldn't play with. he cries when he is bored with an activity and would like a change or he is tired. babies who have done CIO still cry to request attention. they just don't cry when they need/want more sleep. they know they can do that on their own. if your statement were true, CIO babies wouldn't cry anymore AT ALL. and that just isn't true. (please read this in a tone of "discussion" not argument. i do not intend to slam your remark, just disagree in a friendly tone of "i have a different point of view.")

[Melanie]

I wasn't trying to say that if her baby woke in the night she wouldn't go to her, I'm trying to say "what does the baby think?" Does the baby understand the difference between being in bed at 7 pm and 2 am and that "at 7 pm when I cry mommy won't come but at 2 am if I cry mommy will come?" I don't know...just something to think about.

She asked...I answered...not everyone is going to agree.

[jennifer13]

I agree. DD cries for different reasons, and the only "cry" (more of a whimper really) she doesn't do so much anymore is crying because she wakes up in the middle of the night for no reason other than the natural rythyms of sleep (for other reasons- teething, hunger- she cries). As said above, she makes some noise, re-settles herself, then goes back to sleep- doesn't cry because now she doesn't need me since she's learned to do it herself, not because she feels it's useless because I won't come. I've learned how to differentiate her noises. When she's transitioning sleep cycles I let her go unassisted; when she's hungry, I feed her(generally between 4-6 am)and those times she cries out with hunger, I come to her and she's laying on her back fully expecting me to be there, and I am. So she has learned that her needs are met.

Jennifer
Mom to Norah 5/23/03

[jubilee]

I think that a baby learns to go into a deeper sleep, whereas with co-sleeping I think it's a lighter sleep and the baby is more prone to frequent wake-ups. Just my opinion,

[ethansmom]

Beth,

Sorry, I don't have any answers for you, but please don't feel like you've damaged your child! By taking the time to post on these boards, I think we've all shown we care enough about our children to attempt to do what's best for them.

Originally, we tried to follow Dr. Sears, but it just didn't work for us. After 10 wks of co-sleeping and waking to nurse every 2 hrs, I had reached my breaking point. It was then we put Ethan in his crib and let him CIO. Now, my folks are amazed at how easily he goes to down at naps and bedtime. He didn't "sleep through the night" until he was 6 months, and I would nurse him whenever he woke at night. This did not enforce his waking "habit" at all. In fact, his sleep just keeps improving.

Even though we did the CIO, we respond/don't respond based on the type of cry. If he's overly tired and cries when going down for a nap, I try to put him down early the next time. My baby is very happy - people are always remarking on it. Please don't worry about damaging your baby as long as you listen to your heart.

[mharling]

I think that's the case with us. 99% of the time, ds falls asleep on his own in his crib and sleeps all night. On the rare occasion he sleeps with us, he wakes more frequently and is like, 'oh, there's a nipple, i can eat too!'. He is obviously perfectly capable of sleeping through the night without needing to eat since he does that darn near every night. Being with us provides a different dynamic.

Mary & Lane 4/6/03
http://www.shutterfly.com/osnt.jsp?i=67b0de21b356c32425b2 - Halloween Pics!

[Momof3Labs]

ITA, Liza. Babies who are allowed to CIO do not, as a rule, learn to not cry at all because no one will come. I can speak from experience on that - I noticed NO change in Colin's crying patterns at any time during the day after doing CIO, except the naptime crying stopped because he FELL ASLEEP faster (not because he knew not to bother crying - under that theory, he'd just lay there awake but not crying).

However, I also agree that CIO is a VERY personal decision and is not right for all babies and all parents.

[nola]

Now, I am not going to argue about any of this, since everyone has their own reasoning. But, we used this method with my daughter successfully, and I just don't understand why it worked so quickly. Even stranger, she stirs in the night, and probably wakes up briefly, but goes back to sleep. When she is sick or in pain, she cries. If it 7am, she stands up and calls for us to get her. We frequently turn on the lights on in the area she sleeps, and she still rolls over and goes back to sleep, so how does she know when it is 7am or 7pm or 2am? No clue, but she seems to have a schedule that she stays with.

[starrynight]

To answer your question, I think it's two things. She learned to soother herself and she was in her own space without you there, when she was in your bed she knew if she woke up you were there to allow her to nurse be rocked or whatever. Without you right there she knows to go back to sleep.

It's kinda like a bowl of candy on the counter, you grab a piece each time you walk by. Not because you are hungry but because it's just well there. But if the candy is put in a cupboard you only go and get a piece when you are truly hungry/wanting it KWIM?