QUESTION: Schools that produce the brightest students

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

bare w/me pecking one handed with sleeping T in arms....

I was afraid this would get lost in the school thread...
But I was recently told that if you send your child to a school that has the brightest children you can actually hurt their chances significantly of getting into certain colleges. The example given to me was when I told a teacher I wished we had moved to Chapel Hill...she said that would have been hard on my kids since a lot of those Children are kids of very "smart" highly academic parents...

Thus your child who is 1st in class here in my neck of the woods could be 24th ther...with everyone else right there too...

Any thoughts or insight...
I want to send Tristan to this private 7-12 but worry about that...
Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties

[brigmaman]

Hmmm...maybe I'm naive because ds is only 18 months, and I have zero experience with college issues, but...
I think there are many positives to being surrounded by very smart peers. Sometimes it doesn't matter what your rank is...just your grades, etc. The valedictorian of my class did not get into her first choice (Ivy League) school because she was not well rounded (she told me this herself), yet one of my close friends did and she was only within the top 10%. You never know T may be amazingly academic, or maybe a great athlete, or both! But I can't think of many negatives of surrounding yourself with potential high achievers. My friends in hs were pretty much all academically stronger than I was...(except for that one group http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/evil/1379.gif[/img]) and I think it made me want to do better and push harder.

[parkersmama]

I have to agree with Trish on this. Class rank is only one small factor of what colleges look at for admissions. They also put heavy emphasis on grades, SAT scores, extracurricular activities, sports, and the admissions essays that are written. I think most universities are looking for well-rounded students moreso than "#1 in their class" students.

Parker goes to a public magnet school. It is a great school and consistently ranks among the best elementary schools in Georgia. As a matter of fact, they are celebrating today being named a Georgia School of Excellence which is only given out to 26 schools (including elem, middle, and HS) in the state. I think that being with intelligent, hard-working peers has made him work harder and gives him a challenge.

I went to decent public schools and was only in the top 25% or so even though I could have been higher (I like to play more than study! LOL!). I was able to make very good grades without doing much studying and because of that, I really suffered in my first year of college. It took me an entire year to really learn how to effectively study. My brother had the same problem when he went to college. I think learning how to study when you're younger and being challenged in school will serve him well later.

[snp624]

I thought about this myself. There are great high schools in Boston such as Boston Latin School, Boston University Academy etc, where the average SAT scores are above 700s. And I think about 10 kids from each school gets in to Harvard every year. (don't remember the details, I've read it in Boston Magazine.) Although I expect my DD to be a genius (lol) I don't think she would make it to top ten in those schools. I think there is better chance for her if she goes to local high school, really focus on her studies, and get herself involved in various activities, if she does wants to go to harvard.

[lizajane]

i think a classroom full of smart students only challenges and inspires every student to do their best and to think creatively to come up with new ideas.

and i went to private school. private school doesn't necessarily mean all smart students. private school is also where parents send their kids who are challenged by large classrooms and little individual attention. my school had an "AP class" group that travelled from class to class together. and it had an average group that did the same. required classes that had no AP or honors choice is where the groups were mixed. sure, our average SAT score was well over 1000. but i had a number of friends who didn't break 1000 and a number of friends who were over 1200.

i would send him to the school that offers the best curriculum, the best environment, the most opportunities for him to use his creativity and inspire his interest.

what schools are you thinking about? i am planning to apply to the magnets when the time comes. but i do NOT want schuyler in a year 'round. personal preference from a summer loving gal.

[mamahill]

What makes you think Tristan wouldn't hold his own and excel? :) I would think that being surrounded by smarties would provide a more stimulating environment, and therefore motivate the other students to do better. Also, if teachers know they are dealing with more advanced students, I think they are more likely to challenge students with the curriculum. I found that to be true in the high school I went to, which is good because otherwise I don't think I would have done nearly as well in Physics or Calculus.

[Melanie]

It's funny you mention that. One of my high school teachers would spend a year teaching in Africa on occasion. His class were children of diplomats (or something like that...foreigners to Africa) and very small. There were just 5 seniors and very smart, all straight A's...one missed ONE QUESTION on the SATs. So, of course, someone had to be in the bottom 20% off the class even though it was just a class of 5 straight A students. He said he wrote a personal note for her in hopes it would help with college.

[Karenn]

I don't know much about ranking and college admissions, but I do think that having your child in a school that is full of the "best and the brightest" can make a difference on how well they may or may not do in school.

I think it can go both ways depending on the nature of the child. I taught in one of those top schools where it seemed like EVERYONE was incredibly intelligent and it just broke my heart to see perfectly smart kids loose confidence and experience diminishing self esteem simply because they couldn't compete with their peers. Those smart kids that weren't at the top were smart enough to figure out that they were at the bottom and it's not always a fun place to be.

At the same time though, some of those kids who weren't at the very top would be incredibly motivated by a class full of children just a little brighter than themselves. I'm sure this group of kids achieved far more than they would have in a less stimulating environment.

The best that you can do I think is to watch your own child's temperament and see what motivates them- then make the decision.

[jojo2324]

Well, I think there is something to Neve's point. School size affects the chances of getting into certain schools too, regardless of class rank. Private schools do have fewer students. I went to a very small school (58 in my graduating class, 350 students total). We all knew that if one person got into Yale, others wouldn't. Didn't stop about 8 (VERY qualified) students from applying there. (Did affect two very good friends...they weren't such good friends after the letters came in.) But Yale couldn't accept 8 students from one school, especially one so small.

Another thing. I felt like a dunce at my school. I pulled decent grades, but I was the pits when it came to math and science. And I felt like the pits when I knew others in my class were heading over to the nearby college to take classes (a college with emphasis on those subjects), while I was laboring away over seemingly simple things in comparison. (Uh, they WERE simple in comparison.) I would say it affected my self-esteem. I didn't think I was stupid, but where was the proof? I wasn't getting into Yale, or even bothering to apply there. (Not that I think Yale is or should be the final authority on smarts...But when a good percentage of your class is heading to the Ivy League, and you're not...)

Sure, had I remained in my local, public district, I probably would have done really well. But I would have been bored to tears and not prepared at ALL for college once I got there.

[bluej]

I agree w/ Karen that a lot of it has to do w/ your childs personality. Alex is a top performer and it comes fairly easily for her. She puts out as much effort as she needs to to be the top in her class. Some years have been easier than others, but it is definitely in her to be the best. This is good and bad in my eyes and something we'll have to keep an eye on as she gets older (anorexia and other 'control' related things like that pop into my mind). Caden on the other hand has to work a little harder. He does eventually get it and when it clicks it really clicks and he gets on a roll. However, getting over that hump can be hard at times. If he were in a class of all overachievers I would see him losing motivation real fast.

Being challenged is good, however, always being in a state of competition can't be good in my mind.

[squimp]

Having grown up in a similar situation (going to the school with a high proportion of academic parents), I have a few thoughts on this. I agree completely that being surrounded by lots of bright kids raises the bar for your own child. This is a good thing. Being in the top 25% instead of the top 5% did not hurt my educational opportunities (PhD, post-doc at Harvard), but I think it really does depend on your child's personality and the environment. No one has mentioned that there is a lot of pressure at these top high schools where everyone is planning to go to Ivies! I knew a lot of kids who were brilliant, but they burned out in high school, with all kinds of problems. I think a bright child will do well anywhere, as long as you keep perspective, and have a healthy set of expectations, and be sure to not spend your life focused on grades and getting into the right school! Just my two cents.

Jana, mom to Sophia (10/14/2003)

[khakismom]

I can see the logic behind that, but I actually disagree. I think alot of it depends on the school. If you go to a school that is known as having higher academic standards than another one down the street, a ranking of #24 in that tough school carries a bit more weight to it than being #1 at the other school. I went to a very tough, well-known-for-its-academics HS and if anything, all those smart girls challenged me to do better. It wasn't cool to get Cs and Ds at my school, where it is at some. And our school was known as having excellent standards so colleges preferred accepting someone from our school because they knew we could hack the academics in college. We were more prepared for college than other schools--that's why schools are known as prep schools. :)

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

It was hard to ask the question the way I meant to or say what I meant to say because t was asleep on me as I was typing...

But I guess my question is not about do I think he will do well, will colleges looks elsewhere to see he is rounded not just his ranking. and not really wondering if one is doing the right thing surrounding by excellence...

My question is totally geared to acceptance at colleges (life etc... is a another worry)...I guess this teacher told me that it is hard for these bright bright children in Chapel Hill to get into UNC because of the ratio of all of the smart smart kids in that area...where here in my county at the public school level it is not easy to get into UNC but a "great student" will get it...

Does that make sense????
As much as I hate to admit this I don't mind if T is not tops in his class...being well rounded is by far more important to me...I just want to assure that I am not hurting his chances for an equal access to schools by sending him to a school that is the brightest of the bright...does that make sense???? and my college goals for him at this stage are not necessarily even the Ivy Leagues as much as a great school like UNC...

In other words are there caps that these schools take from certain regions I wonder...
Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties

[MartiesMom2B]

Neve,

The good thing about us living in NC is that UNC and other state schools in NC is that state schools must have 83% in state students, by law. Only 17% of out state students are accepted, that's why its so hard for out of state students to be accepted to UNC.

According to DH: I know that certain schools have caps like private schools (Ravenscroft - NC State and UNC both only allows 10 seniors from there), there may be allowances based on population (more from Wake than counties in the mountains)it is tougher than ever right now to get into UNC and NC State - other State schools, not so much of a problem

I know that when I lived in VA, their state colleges do not have in state quota to fill. So it is difficult to be accepted into UVA or VPI.


Sonia
Proud Mommy to Martie 4/6/03

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

See that is my fear ...that Ravenscroft example is a perfect example...such a cap can hurt a child. Not saying that all proivate schools produce the brightest of the bright...but some do...and I fear that a huge obsticle possibly, and something to think about...


Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties

[MelissaTC]

I totally understand what you mean, Neve.

I do think that if you send T to C.A. he is going to do really well and wind up in a great college. I wouldn't worry too much about it. I remember when I applied to college. Some of the schools I applied to had previous experience with my school. They knew that a student taking my program of studies (Honors/AP) had a tougher curriculum than that of the students in the mainstream program. So even though some of my grades were in the B range, they held more weight than the As of the students in the less challenging program. They were more impressed that I tried some difficult things rather than coasting by.

I have heard that about Chapel Hill as well. I know people who moved away from Chapel Hill to Wake county because it was too much pressure on their children. I also know a couple who took their son out of public school and sent him to C.A. because he was bored. He is truly an exceptional child and it is no surprise to me that he has done really well at C.A. He is also very well rounded.

I say don't worry about this all yet...it will all fall into place. This is coming from me who wonders if I should buy a house in the neighborhood to keep Matthew at Davis Dr schools or to move so he can go to West Lake...ugh...

[slknight]

(Proud out-of-state attendee of UNC here.) :)

I could be wrong, but I thought UNC's quotas were by county. So that if you live in Wake or Orange county, it's hard to get in (but it doesn't matter about the town). Every year in the alumni magazine, they publish a whole break-down.

Susan and Alex (04.18.03)

[mattysmom]

I used to work in college admissions at two highly selective colleges, then worked in admissions at one of the most selective boarding schools, and now work as a college counselor at an independent girls' school so this is a topic that I address on almost a daily basis. In a nutshell, I can tell you that colleges do NOT have a quota or cap to how many students they can admit from a particular high school. One year we had 4 out of 5(out of a class of 50) girls admitted to Harvard, and the next we had 1 of 8. And, as someone pointed out, the most selective colleges could fill their class with valedictorians, students with top SAT scores but they're really working to put together a class that meets their institutional goals.

My take on all of this is that the child should be at a school that is going to challenge them intellectually and socially, offer them extracurricular opportunities in a diverse environment. And this is different for every child.

[MartiesMom2B]

DH a proud NC Stater has forbidden our off spring to go to UNC for undergrad. Which I think is funny. I told him that I would secretely get her to like the Tar Heels, but that may qualify as grounds for divorce.

Sonia
Proud Mommy to Martie 4/6/03

[doubleL]

Like most things in life, you have to weigh the good and the bad and figure out what is right for your child and your family. I also went to a very high-achieving public school where well over 25% of the student body went to Ivy League schools and 8 people (out of 400ish) did get in and go to Princeton etc. Indeed my peers were very sophisticated... drinking heavily and sex by 17 was the norm. I did ok there but think I would have been much better off at the neighboring and slightly less competitive school district. Only about 15% went Ivy :) The parents were much more involved so that there was a less grotesque amount of drinking and sex and generally savage behavior.

Also some schools are very tract-oriented (AP, Regular, and I can't think of any PC names for the other category) and other schools encourage all of their students to do their best and to try out AP and Honors courses.

We have two great school systems near me now. One of them gives out bumper stickers that say, "My Kid is an Honor Student at .... School." The other one gives out stickers that says, "Blah Blah School, We honor all of our students!" I want to send my kid to the latter one.

Lou
~David 5.01
~Elisabeth 6.03

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

That bumper sticker actually gave me goose bumps when I read it!!!! What a great great sticker the latter school has...I will forever think of that when I see those stickers on the back of cars from now on!!!!!

Awesome story!!!
Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties

[kransden]

To be completely honest, it is too early to worry about stuff like that. Why? Because the rules for admission to X college may change in 10 years. This happens a lot more than you realize. Also consider my dh, he couldn't get into the school he wanted to so he went to a smaller college and transfered at the end of 2 years and saved a BUNCH of money. Is a free ride to state better than paying 1/2 tuition to Harvard? It just depends. So lots of things can happen.

I think the most important thing is to make your child feel comfortable and sucessful at his school. This means different things to different kids. Right now, my child is a social butterfly who loves her daycare and needs lots of action. One of the other children there I feel needs a more nurturing enviroment and 1:1 attention. It breaks my heart to see that sad little face that misses mom so bad. No matter how good the dc workers are, it isn't enough for that child.

When Tristan gets older he'll find his niche, and you're preceptive enough that you'll know it too.

Karin and Katie 10/24/02

[sntm]

i think even if that is true, if he learns more at the private school and is happier there, then it is worth it.

i have noticed that in highly competitive programs/colleges that unusual backgrounds do better. for example, my SIL was from a podunk school in Southern Illinois where on average 1-3 people go to anything more than a junior college, and that made her highly desirable to the scholarship people at Brown. when we look at people for residency spots, ones who came from disadvantaged backgrounds or worked full-time to pay their way through college, etc. just stand out more.

i think the main thing is to ensure that he appreciates his education, no matter where he goes. we will probably try to send jack to a private or magnet school, but if he ever comes home talking down about people or expecting that BMWs or ski trips to Aspen are the standard, then we will be rethinking that decision!

(Mama, who earned scholarships to college and med school, and Daddy, who paid for college by ROTC and 4 years in the army)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03

[muskiesusan]

I went to a public school that academically was not the greatest and had very few people go on to college. I was ranked second in the class and scored pretty well on the ACT, however, when I was talking to potential colleges, I was told over and over that b/c our school curriculum was so poor I would not be receiving honor scholarships. The reasoning was that a student in a better district who ranked 10th or whatever in the class was actually more deserving than I because of the tougher curriculum. I still got into the colleges, just not the honor programs or any scholarship funds.

Susan
Mom to Nicholas 10/01/01
& Baby #2 due 4/23/04!!!!

[jojo2324]

In a nutshell, I can
>tell you that colleges do NOT have a quota or cap to how many
>students they can admit from a particular high school.

Sorry! I didn't mean to put false information out there. At my school, we were led to believe that was the case. Never formally, of course...it was just one of those things that was "known."

LOL, I'm starting to look into nursery schools, and am panicking about that...What's college going to be like?? :D

I LOVE the bumper sticker!!! That should be the way at every school.

[lizajane]

shannon-

i went to STAB. let me know if you ever want to talk about it!

also, i got into UNC-CH out of state and one of two people accepted from a class of 52. when my classmate got in, the teachers all mourned for me thinking there was NO WAY i would get in, as well. but i did and we both attended.

but mostly, stop worrying about college, neve! you are so silly! he isn't even potty trained! LOL! :)

i know, we all just want what's best for them...

[lukkykatt]

ITA. I think the best thing you can do is to realize T's strengths and weaknesses and put him in whatever school will best help him thrive. If he is in an environment that is both nurturing and stimulating to him, everything else will fall into place.

I went to Phila. magnet schools and my elementary school provided exactly that environment - and it brought out the best in everyone. My HS, on the other hand, was a college prep school that was excellent academically, but did not provide the nurturing aspect - and it showed. My freshman class was over 900 and I graduated with under 400 people. It was also needlessly competitive. And, nowhere on my report card did it say that a C at my school was like an A anywhere else - a quote I heard endlessly throughout my years there.

I will be very conscious of my past experiences as I select schools for my boys. I will be looking for a school that allows them each to be their best - whatever that means for each of them. I plan on starting with our local public school that is supposed to be very good. But if it doesn't meet their needs, I'll look for a private school that does.

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

UMMM...I can't say I'm sitting here "worried" about college...my neighbor who is a teacher and I had this conversation about Chapel Hill and sending a child to a private school known for it's advance students so I brought that question to this community since we were talking about schools...but can't say I've spent any amount of time biting my nails over this issue in the least...potty trained or not...

But for us and our financial planning, and I am very anal about our financial planning and gearing ourselves to retirement I have to say FOR US I disagree that I absolutely should start planning if I plan to send Tristan to a private school from 7-12...because we hope to have atleast 3 children there if that is the case and if they went today it would be $13,000 a year each...so we are looking at IF TODAY $39,000 a year...so again in our case any of my questioning about sending T to a private school and its effects on getting him into even a state level college and saving for it (because 7th grade is just 11 years away) is one of the smartest things I can do for our family and its finances....

ALSO-we don't know the ages of the children we are adopting, they could be 5...so then we are looking at this decision and saving for 7 years off...

So if that is "silly" I'll take that title!!!!
The beauty of different strokes for different folks :)...
Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties

[mattysmom]

I didn't mean for this to be in any way an attack on what you wrote - since that is probably the biggest misperception out there. And it can be really damaging since students think they're competing against one another for admission when they're really competing against the other 5, 10, 20 or 30,000 applicants to the college!

[lizajane]

i'm sorry neve!! i really didn't mean to criticize! i was just trying to goof off and play. like as if to say, "you are thinking about college? i can't even remember to tie my own shoes!"

but seriously, it is a GREAT point that we all need to consider the finanical implications of schooling NOW so that we can plan and save, etc.

i DEFINITELY didn't mean to say that you are "being silly" to think about this important stuff. i was just being, hmm... can't think of a word. i dunno, airheaded or something.

please please please don't think that i thought it is wrong for you to bring it up or talk about it. i wasn't making fun. i promise. i was just thinking that it was a lot to think about. really. and you are SO right about the $$ aspects.

anyway. feeling bad about causing a misunderstanding...

[egoldber]

In general, I would think that T's record of accomplishments will speak for itself regardless of where he goes to school. As folks have pointed out, there are advantages and disadvantages to going to a "strong" school for college admissions purposes. If that's where you think that T will potentially have the best education for him, then that's where I would plan to send him.

But just make sure you research the school and understand its philosophies and expectations and make sure you're on board with that. (Which you have probably already done. :) )

HTH,

[Mom2Miri]

Things can change considerably by the time our kids go to college. However here is an example supporting what you were told. When I was a faculty member, due to affirmative action issues, CA public universities were considering (don't recall if they implemented this) admitting the top X% of kids from all public high schools in CA. So a student with average grades stands a better chance of meeting that cutoff at a school with lower overall quality students.

That said, I would go for the best education I can find for my child, regardless of public or private. Everyone defines education differently too. For some it's peer quality, for others it's #AP courses, or breadth of course offerings, teacher-student ratio, music/arts/sciences etc. It's not always just test scores. Focus on what is important to you.

And since I have my old professor's hat on, I'll go on to say that I taught at a top ranked school and one that was ranked considerably lower. To be perfectly honest, the quality of the undergraduate education at the lower ranked school was better. Graduate school is a different story. I could go on and on (as all profs like to do...) but I'll restrain myself. :)

HTH,
Helen & Mirielle 2/25/03

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

...oh gosh don't feel bad...planning is just something that I am obsessed with...

Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties