OT--I am entitled to have it all NOW syndrome

[peanut4us]

This probably belongs in the Bitching Post, but it is kind of an offshoot to JulieL's thread on furnishings. I feel like most of the folks that I know in my age bracket or younger feel some sort of "entitlement" to having everything their parents have RIGHT NOW. There is no economy, no good judgement about what kind of debt is worth getting into. I know that is a personal choice for everyone, for us we have house debt and a little car debt, but it's not a whoopdeedoo car and it's not whoopdeedoo debt. We fully expect to have to get into debt for my upcoming schooling, but that's it.

I just don't understand why people 1) feel entitled to it and 2) hang themselves with so much so early in life. Case in point... a couple we know who have 2 kids both under the age of 3 just bought a 6 bedroom 5 bath home backing up to greenbelt in a rather posh neighborhood. They were convinced (she was anyway) that it was the right thing to do... they were living in a modest 3 bedroom house with a relatively small monthly payment. They wanted something big so she could have a "private" room, he could have an office, the 2 kids could have their own rooms and then another room to "grow" with or for guests. I'm all about investment in real estate, but to me it seems like a bad choice at this stage in their lives... his job is with dell, and is always on the brink of being laid off. He has a law degree that he never uses and has never taken the bar... I know they still have his law school debt.

So why do I care... because now they are in the house and she complains how it's stressful and how her DH should work harder (WTH???) and how thye don't have enough money to furnish it and how their college furnishings look lame in their... blah, blah, blah, you get the picture. So when I say, maybe you should look at a smaller house, she cops this "we deserve to have the nicer things in life... my KIDS deserve this too" speech. Um, hullo, you're 28 and your DH is 30. And you don't work and never have. Um, and just why do you deserve this?

That's just one example, but it drives me nuts. My DH's brothers and sister are exactly the same way, if not more extreme and it really peaves Scott off. We couldn't care less if they all go bankrupt, but it's their flippant attitude about things like bankrupty that really kill us. I know way too many people who look at bankruptsy as a great thing... it pays off your debts and in just a few short years they can get into debt again.

Sigh. I don't know why this is bugging me today. Is it just me? Do you know these people too?

[hobey]

I don't think it's just you. I know some folks who wanted to buy all new things for their second child (same sex as first) because she deserved it including a new car and house and then turned around moaning that they now can't have a parent stay at home because the new baby costs so much. Hello! Had you stuck with the old house & car, you could have afforded it. Anyway, they're very much into keeping up with the Joneses, and the Millers, and so on....

I'd like DS to have all the advantages in life that 2 incomes could afford but both DH and I believe that it's more important for DS to be raised by a parent. If we have to delay gratification for a while, so be it.

Different people have different priorities (some of which I really believe are misguided) but they're free to choose the course of their life. They just need to deal w/ the consequences of said choices.

Raquel
Nathan's Mom 12/19/03

[emilyf]

Ugh. This bugs me too. I watch so many people feel like they need/deserve a huge house, all new things, an enormous yard etc, etc. Then they complain about their long commutes and having to work so hard. Our priority is time with family, so we live in a tiny house close to work for dh and I stay home. We do without a lot, but I wouldn't trade it for some of my friends' hectic existences! A big trend here is to buy as much land as you can afford even if you have to live very far away from work. Many of dh's colleagues commute an hour or more to work. They probably have lovely houses, but I like having my dh home in the evenings. I know we will probably never have as nice a house as I grew up in, or as much money for extras but my happy childhood was more about my siblings and parents and not the things I had.
Emily \r\nmom of Charlie born 11/02

[mom2kandj]

In addition to the Have it all NOW Syndrome, could you add the Money Burning a Hole in My Pocket and I Don't Need to Save Money Because I'm Still Young syndromes to your list?

It scares me to see my SIL and BIL spending money likes it is water! Let's just say that they have a mortgage, a second that consolidated their credit card debt, two car payments and who knows what else. Just recently, both DH and SIL were given $$ from grandma and both families also got their tax refunds. We chose to pay down debt, fund our IRAs for the year, and put $$ into both kids' college funds. What did SIL do? She asked us how much a kitchen remodel would be and if we would help them with the labor to save $$! Oh, and she doesn't know how to cook! Then, she asked me to watch her DD on Thursday, because she's having a hard time finding a regular sitter in their price range because daycare would be too expensive. Okay, enough complaining about them! Turning the blind eye yet again...

I know I shouldn't judge people, and should let them make their own mistakes, but to hear that people are filing for their second bankruptcy in ten years or that most households live paycheck to paycheck and don't even have one month's wage in savings really bothers me. I am a reformed credit card crazy and though not perfect, I've learned to live better in my means and to save and invest prior to even funding my budget. I could go on and on....



Rose
mom 2 Katie 12/02/00
& Jack 04/16/02

[sweetbasil]

I totally hear you, Joey. I was just talking about this with a friend, and again with DH, yesterday. And really, in the worst cases we've seen, it goes along with an attitude of I'm an adult now and don't need to show respect to people older than me, b/c we're all in the same age category now. But that's probably a whole other rant!

It feels great for DH and I to sit and compare notes, vent a little, and agree to get on with life- b/c there are people like this who are pretty close to home, and we'd be mad all the time if we thought about it. So we agree that it's not the way we want to be, we'll continue to live beneath our means and enjoy each other instead of working ourselves to death to buy stuff that we can't even enjoy. Mostly, though, I hope that our children see these decisions and are impacted- our society is so materialistic, and I wonder if it'll ever get any better.

[Jeanne]

It seems most are like that these days but the worst tends to come from those who were raised with so much to begin with. I was not raised with money. It's something my parents had to work hard for. There was no entitlement in my house.

This entitlement brings with it, debt, restrictions, complications, and worries that others don't have. I don't go through the severe highs and lows that my friends do. DH and I are on a steady path.

Duel income for us means that DH doesn't have to travel. We decided that he should continue with his current position instead of taking a larger role in another company for the simple fact that we want to sit down to dinner as a family, go to the park or pool after dinner as a family, enjoy the weekends as a family without having to play catch-up, etc... I'm happy to work part time to accomplish that goal. I'd rather have him home to see his kids than have him travel all the time for the sake of more money. Sure, I'd be able to stay at home but then we'd be by ourselves. This works for some but not for us. So duel incomes for us allows us to stay at a desired level of living without compromising what's truly important for us. And I never complain about it. I suposse if I did have to spend all that time alone that I might be tempted to buy into all the materialism I see in other people. They sacrafice so much to make more money that they feel like they deserve the world; or at least try desperatly to fill a void.

There are a lot of things that need replacing but we do this when the budget allows. We are also not into complicating our lives. We try to keep things simple. I may not have the most expensive electronics but at least I don't spend hours trying to deal with them. Our DVD/CD system drives me insane! As does my cell phone! I just want to press a button and be done!

I'm very into quality and I'll spend a lot of money on something that is important to me. But I'm not into status or keeping up. I'm not so insecure that I need to show someone outwardly how much money I have. I don't need to "keep up" and I know that while my friend may drive a new BMW, she doesn't have nearly as much saved in her retirement and kid's college accounts as I do!

[papal]

Thanks Emily. You echoed my thoughts exactly.

[barbarhow]

I'm right there with you Joey and the rest of you. I have a huge resentment towards people who file for bankruptcy. When I got divorced from AH (husband #1) I was "rewarded with $50,000 in debt-as well as a house that had liens up to its eyeballs. I spent 5 years working 70 hours a week to pay off that debt. So many people asked me why I didn't just file for bankruptcy. I screwed up. I felt responsible for it. I also didn't want the easy way out. I knew that if I had to pay off that debt it would be highly unlikely that I would ever make the same mistake again.
DH and I work so hard. Yes at times we splurge for things. For the most part, however, we are so careful with our money. Yup, we spoil Jack sometimes-but we do so within our means. And by far our favorite thing to spoil him with is love.
I think that there are many people who try and fill their lives with "things". They fail to realize that what is really important is what is in their hearts and the people who fill their lives. I may not be shopping at Bloomingdales anymore but my heart is so full that I well up with tears when I think of how beautiful my life with DH and DS is.
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03

[mamahill]

Wow, Barbara - that's an amazing story! Good for you - what a great lesson you have learned, and will then pass on to Jack.

For me, I grew up in a family where debt wasn't an option. We have a mortgage, and that's it. It isn't because we are filthy rich and can buy whatever we want - it's because we don't even consider the bigger things. My BIL is getting his MBA and my sister is just stunned at how many people are on state healthcare and getting foodstamps because they go with the attitude of, "We'll be paying taxes for the rest of our lives, so we might as well milk the system," and have loads of kids on this system because hey, it's cheap! My sister and BIL saved just about everything (seriously, they are the cheapest people ever) so that he can graduate without debt, and they can afford independent health care for her. And THEN they'll start a family. My sister was annoyed that here's this "poverty-level" family receiving over $350/month in food stamps and buying steaks for dinner, and my sister is excited when ground beef goes on sale because then she can buy it... Oh well, I told her that she will be all the happier down the line knowing she did all she could to be independent.

[nola]

Your comments made me think of a book I picked up at the library recently. Make your kid a millionaire - or something like that. Those were the key words. I thought it was valuable. I ignored the title that sounds like an infomercial. It was essentially how to set up finances so that your child learns to save his/her money and is well prep for expenses of college/retirement.

[momathome]

Ugh!!! This is so totally my SIL and BIL - they are close to $60,000 in debt, he has a landscaping "business" that makes no money and he uses as an excuse not to get a real job, they can barely pay their mortgage and if they have on the verge of filing for bankruptzy for the last year. They have 3 children under the age of 5 whom they buy a ridiculous amount of toys for, spent $12,000 remodeling their kitchen 2 years ago, and are dodging creditors left and right. They received a large inheritance a few years ago that they blew through and they don't have anything to show for it. It is so completely frustrating to see how they spend money and then listen to them complain about how broke they are. It's called grow up and get a grip on reality!
-Lauren

[C99]

Yes, I do. I also call it the "Keeping up the Joneses" syndrome. Heck, I know people who are the proverbial Joneses.

We bought our house when it was on the lower end of the market. Now, there are houses going in our neighborhood for over TWICE what we paid for ours. There are people on our street driving really high-end cars: BMWs, Mercedes, Saabs, Range Rovers, Audis, etc. We have a 4-year-old Nissan Maxima (that is paid in full). Sometimes, it gets me down to see all this wealth around me, like we can't really afford where we live. But then I just remember that we don't want to get into debt just to impress someone who really doesn't care. Most of our neighbors are 8-10 years older than us and further along in life. Maybe they can afford these things because they are in debt up to their eyeballs, maybe they can afford these things because they make a substantial amount of money. I don't know.

I will admit that I like "things" as much as the next American. But I don't like them to the point that I am willing to go into debt for them. And I don't think that I am entitled to them either.

[June]

People live and they learn, or they don't. Sometimes it takes a while and some mistakes for people to learn how to cope with finances. I hope this couple (you don't use the term friends) learns through this experience wheather they decide to downgrade or to keep up the facade. This would bug me, too, if I were you. Maybe all she needs is someone to listen to her. Only you can decide if you want to listen.

I must admit that I was once in search of the riches of the American Dream. Once the tech bubble burst and the reality hit that not every start-up company would make us rich, we readjusted our thinking. Then there was a layoff after which we learned no job is secure. We are much happier now having learned some life lessons.

[parkersmama]

We are so with you on this, Joey! We recently looked at buying a bigger house (for the millioneth time!) and decided not to move. We live in a nice, decent size house but are pretty cramped with 5 of us plus the dog. The bank approved us on dh's salary alone but the amount of the debt was *staggering*! We decided that it would be a stretch with both our incomes and my job is shaky at best so it could come down to one income. Like someone else mentioned, we bought our house at about 2/3 of what it's worth now. Fortunately, we could sell it and make a handsome profit. Unfortunately, we can't afford to purchase a replacement! LOL! So, we stay put. It's a disappointing decision but still I know it's the right one. Our current debt-free (other than house and one car) way of life is much better.

We look around at others in our area and just can't figure where they get the money to do the things they do! Then, we remind ourselves that they are probably in hock up to their eyeballs and might be barely squeaking by. That helps me put it in perspective!

I don't feel like I have a sense of entitlement but I definitely struggle with the "want it all give it to me now" syndrome. Damn those Joneses! LOL!

And, yes, on the bankruptcy thing! We have some semi-friends (more than acquaintances, less than good friends) who are in a terrible financial situation. I was recently told by another good friend that the husband of that couple had actually said to the wife, "Well, if you need that new computer, you'd better go buy it now before we file bankruptcy." ARGH! Talk about milking the system!!!

[mteve]

Boy do I know these people - they seem to be everywhere.

There is a fantastic book that describes in detail what these people are suffering from: "Affluenza: The All-Consuming Epidemic" by John De Graaf, David Wann and Thomas H. Naylor. They define affluenza as "a painful, contagious, socially transmitted condition of overload, debt, anxiety and waste resulting from the dogged pursuit of more".

Things don't bring you happiness or fulfillment. There are so many people who try to make up for an unhappy life or poor self-esteem by buying and consuming more, more, more. It seems to me that alot of people who don't have the means but still buy bigger and better things have an inversely proportional sense of self-worth. They are usually miserable!

Eve
Due with Knox Edward 5-13-04

[vikivoly]

I TOTALLY agree with you! I photograph weddings, so I see this A LOT! I used to meet with the B&G at their home (mostly because mine was too darn small!) and I couldn't believe everything that they had.

It's this world! We are taught that we can have it all. Case in point working Mothers and SAHM. We've all seen from everyone's difficulties on this board that each side has it's pluses and minuses, yet many of us go into it thinking we can have our cake and eat it too!

[Grace_underfire]

I see it but it doesnt bother me that much... if they are that stupid to get themselves into that much debt... then that is their problem... I don't envy their STUFF because its not really theirs anyway and I have plenty with my family and my cruddy passed down furniture. :)

[kijip]

My husband and I fall onto the no debt, tiny house, small car, pay cash end of the $ philosophy spectrum and we are happy. However, I have a lot of experience working first hand with welfare families and my father's career was with the state as a welfare administrator. And I do not often see the lazy, fraud types that we have created as a typecast for welfare families. I hear the stories, such as yours, about steak buyers and families who have tons of children "on the system" and the stats in my state and my first hand experience do not bear this picture out. Most people are on and off welfare in a few years. Most families on welfare are not growing families. There are work and education requirements in nearly every state. And the cost of the benefit programs needs to be compared to the cost of unemployment insurance, emergency room visit and starvation. Also in many states, such as mine, it is impossible to buy private insurance. The insurance commisson has made it impossible for companies to sell individual policies and make a profit. Thus no companies market them in my state. I am lucky, since we have excellent group insurance via my husband's employer. Unless you have a group plan the only possible insurance in my state is state insurance. Thus a lot of the self employed and students end up on state insurance in this state. I don't consider this shameful- it sure is cheaper for me as a taxpayer than having all of these people show up at the public emergency rooms! As for food stamps for students, I think that it helps people get a great education and avoid debt. Most of these students works as well. With their educations finished sooner they will be able to get a better job and start paying more taxes sooner. I am not a socialist. I am in fact a shameless capitalist due to my economics degree. Some social safety networks are valuable and prudent. I have never needed to use these safety net programs but I am glad that they are there for those who need them.

[jojo2324]

You know, I've been thinking about this a lot. DH and I have taken our stumbles, and yeah, we're paying for it now. It stinks, and I don't know if it stinks because of the situation, or because we got ourselves here in the first place. Probably a combination of the two. Luckily, we've gotten things under control, and DH's business is growing. Things are looking peachy. That doesn't mean we're about to go out and blow it all on a kitchen remodel. (Well, definitely not, since we rent. I cannot WAIT to own a home. Here's hoping housing costs go down soon...)

I do want to say a few things though. I think it's commendable that most of you seem to be in control of your finances. I read all these threads about Quicken and Excel and am boggled. I wish I could be that organized. But I'm not, and that doesn't make me a bad person. I had Gannon with the help of state welfare. Honestly, I got much better prenatal care at the clinic than at the private OB practice with Sorrel. Also I wasn't offered benefits through my employer, even after working there for two years. And I wasn't working a minimun wage, midnight shift job - I just worked for a small company that had no anything for its employees. Just because I had to rely on state funded health insurance doesn't make me irresponsible either.

However, I WISH there was a way to teach kids about finances and planning and everything else. I grew up in a poor family. We lived paycheck to paycheck. Sometimes there were no paychecks to speak of. We used food stamps. I didn't learn from my parents at all, because it didn't seem they had anything to teach. I know nothing of mutual funds, 401(k) plans (DH is self-employed, so I don't even think that applies to us), Roth IRA accounts, etc. I bought Personal Finance for Dummies and am trying to educate myself. I've become obsessed with watching the Suze Orman show on CNBC. I'm overwhelmed with everything out there, but I'm trying.

I used to scoff at the idea of Home Ec, and I still kind of do. I couldn't care less how to make mac and cheese from scratch. That's not going to bulk up my retirement fund. They need to teach this stuff in school! Teach kids about budgets, balancing checkbooks, the BASICS. (Maybe things have changed since my junior high days.) They throw you out there blind, then stuff your college mailbox FULL of pre-approved credit card applications. Then you get to watch commercials that say things like, "Good credit, bad credit, no credit? Doesn't matter, come on down and get the car you DESERVE!!" You don't deserve that, not at all. Or what is it, Rent-a-Center? Where you can go rent a large screen plasma TV, with the option to lease or buy? Again, because you DESERVE it. What's everybody watching right now? The Apprentice. Talk about a sense of entitlement - did you SEE Trump's apartment? Yowza.

I guess my point is, yes, you pay for your follies, and they shouldn't be taken lightly. But corporate America wants you to feel that sense of entitlement.

[peanut4us]

I appreciate your comments. I fully realize that not all or even most of welfare recipients are lazy, take advantage of the system folks. And I know that it really does help lots of people thorugh bad spots.

I think what mamahill was talking about, and what I have also seen personally, are the folks who come from middle class (to upper middle class) families who make bad money/family managment decisions when they are still in school. To consciously choose to have a baby when you are in school and know thta it will result in your being on welfare/food stamps/medicaid or whatever with the attitude of "I'm going to pay back into the system more than I ever get out when I become an attorney" is just wrong to me. Wait to have that child for 2 or 3 more years until you have the means to support yourself and your family, KWIM? The people I'm thinking of PLAN to take advantage of the system. And that's what burns me up. I have tales upon tales of folks like that, and I don't like know that I work to support them.

ANd on the debt/bankrupty side... I work at a large computer company, where most people make a good wad of money. More than enough to have a modest house, a modest car or 2 and support a family (frugally). I shared an office with a guy who was over $80,000 in debt. He bragged about how the credit card companies were suckers... he went on multiple diving vacations to mexico and various islands each year... at one point he said they were getting near to need to declare bankrupty, so they went on a posh cruise to hot/expensive diving places and came back and filed. He's done this 2 other times in his life already and at the time he was only 46. That's what makes me sick.

[peanut4us]

Joanne--I hope you didn't take my post to be putting down folks in your situation. That's so not what I meant... I clarified upthread about it. I worked for a 10 person company for a while myself... while i was there i had my first of 10 kidney stones. That first time, I thought that I was dying. I went to the ER, they did tests and xrays and every other thing known to man, only to send me home with pain killers and sya "this too shall pass"; After I started getting the bills I had to arrange a very modest payment plan with the hospital. My company didn't offer insurance, so I owed evreything myself. I fully realize that if it had been something more serous or just plain more expensive, like a baby, I would have been hopelessly in debt... And I would have been greatful for any help I could get. I was 19, had left college to earn more money for upcoming semesters, and wasn't making a whole lot at my job. I would have needed that assistance. I'm so greatful that nothing catastrophic ever happened to me... and that I was able to eventually make enough money to get back into school, so that I could get my degree, so I have a kick ass job :) Long way of saying, I don't think you were irresponsible. you did what you could.

As to the idea of education, YES YES YES! What the freak is the deal with not teaching our kids this in school... They should all have to learn to balance a freaking check book before graduation... they should all have to go through "fantasy" exercises for a whole school year of buying/selling stock, making credit purchases etc... all this is with a designated amount of fake money... then they could see how buying the video games, cool motorcycle, best limo, whatever and charging it is a recipe for disaster. Part of the class should talk about investments... what they are and mean, how to access them, WHEN they should start. They should be taught about savings... they should be taught about what mortgages are... what "living in their means" really means. They should be taught to budget. It galls me that we have nothing like this in our schools. How are kids supposed to learn??? I was raised in an upper middle class (damn stingy!) home. My parents made lots of investments... and I'm about to turn 30 and just finally last night understood how taxes are taken out of an IRA. They didn't teach me, so I am trying to learn for myself, like you are.

I tried budgeting about 5 months ago... I couldn't get it, really. I tried... so now I just take put money in savings first, pay our bills and see what's left... and if we don't transfer money at the end of the month, it was a good budget month :o scary, but it's been working for me.

[C99]

Joanne,

Great post. And I wanted to say that I read Personal Finance for Dummies too and it's a great book. It will teach you more about all the stuff that you don't teach you in the college-prep track at school, including how you and your husband can set up an IRA because he's self-employed. :)

[peanut4us]

I forgot this in my previous post... we broke down an got an accountant last year because Scott was self-employed and we didn't want to pay any more tax than our fair share. He recommended opening something called a "SEP" I think that's self-emplyment plan... or something brilliant like that. We did ours through Vanguard... the limits you can put into it are based on some percentage of his income. I can't recall, but it works like an IRA in that it helps you with your taxes now.

And maybe I'll go pick up the personal financy for dummies book too.

[sweetbasil]

I went to junior high/high school (late '80s-early 90s) in a pretty decent school district outside of the Houston area and in seventh grade, we spent an entire 6 weeks on checking/savings account education. Then in high school (economics class) we did projects on the stock market and investing. I take it that's not the norm? These were advanced placement classes- I don't know if the other levels of the equivalent classes learned this, but I'd think that'd be pretty stupid- to teach one group of kids and not another?!

[stillplayswithbarbies]

In my son's 7th grade social studies class they are learning exactly what you are talking about, Joanne.

They were each assigned a job and told their salary and now they are having to figure out how to "live" on that salary. They are writing mock checks to pay for things and balancing their checkbook, as well as budgeting their monthly income with their expenses. Each person was randomly assigned a job, from waitress all the way up to doctor on the salary scale.

It's been really interesting. They had to find a car they could afford in their budget in the real want ads and my son was all excited about a truck for $250 until he realized it was just the front end of a truck! We are in the market for a new car now and he is participating in that decision with us, including the discussions about how much we have to spend and whether we want to go in debt or not. (not!)

I don't expect these kids to remember this lesson when they are starting their lives, but maybe this foundation will be the start of their financial education. I continue it at home by involving my son in our discussions about where to spend our money and I don't shield him from the money talks. I never heard my parents talk about money. We have had some serious discussions here lately since we went from two incomes to one, and my son has been a part of all that. (he even volunteered to not go on field trips at school to save money and then we had the discussion about how the education of the children in this house is one of the top priorities in the budget)

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[sntm]

this is an interesting thread. we had that sort of education in middle school, but i'm not sure if it prepared me as much as i would have thought -- it's a lot easier to imagine yourself having PB&J for dinner because it is cheap than to actually do it!

i think family influence has the most impact, though not always as it is intended. both my DH and I come from struggling middle class backgrounds. DH's family had a lot of money until a bad business decision pretty much devastated them (his parents have an unfinished addition on their house started 15 years ago!). what he learned from that experience was to be extremely tight/cautious/pessimistic with money. with his influence, we have always had life insurance, IRA investments, and money in savings, but have struggled sometimes with day-to-day spending. my family took a hit after my parents divorced and we moved back to kentucky. we probably would have qualified for welfare and had a long time of no new things and Kraft mac and cheese every night, but my mom just worked her tail off and we scrimped for a long time. she eventually made a really good living, despite only 1 year of college education. what i "learned" from that is that "things" can't be taken away so my reaction to having any money is to spend it quickly on something nice before it is gone (not the best attitude!) i've always come by everything honestly though.

so i guess i understand how people can spiral into debt by buying more than they can afford. it really irks me when people do it deliberately to try to "play" the system. and while i know that the majority of people do not (I see plenty of Medicaid/uninsured people at work who are just good decent hardworking people), I think there is a substantial minority that do work the system. i have relatives that i know have taken advantage of the system.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03

[McQ]

Joey your story makes me sick too. That is just flat out wrong.

I had an old client that was a GS-12 in the government who not only decided to have another baby because quote "it's another check" but the worst IMO was not marrying the father and giving him full custody of both kids because he made lots less than she did and he could collect welfare. All the while they were living together as a family. Does she not realize that these are her freaking kids and if some thing was to go wrong in that relationship that she stood no ground in keeping them! All to make a buck. Sick, sick, sick.

Allison
~ mommy to Declan 3.24.03
and number 2 EDD 9.14.04

[celfsh]

>I think what mamahill was talking about, and what I have also
>seen personally, are the folks who come from middle class (to
>upper middle class) families who make bad money/family
>managment decisions when they are still in school. To
>consciously choose to have a baby when you are in school and
>know thta it will result in your being on welfare/food
>stamps/medicaid or whatever with the attitude of "I'm going to
>pay back into the system more than I ever get out when I
>become an attorney" is just wrong to me. Wait to have that
>child for 2 or 3 more years until you have the means to
>support yourself and your family, KWIM? The people I'm
>thinking of PLAN to take advantage of the system. And that's
>what burns me up. I have tales upon tales of folks like that,
>and I don't like know that I work to support them.

Okay. I wasn't going to say anything because I have this semi-unhealthy phobia of not wanting to offend anybody, but...

I think we must know the same people! But what REALLY used to get to me (pre-baby) was that then they'd actually have the gall to act all high and mighty and say, "So why don't YOU have any kids yet?" Like we were being selfish and/or materialistic or something. Huh? Did you ever stop to think that maybe it's 'cause we're already helping to pay for yours?!

Okay, I'm done now. :)

celeste
mom to olivia 9/25/02
celeste
mom to olivia 9/25/02

[jojo2324]

You know what though? What about all those credit card companies? Yeah, it sounds pretty rotten that people live it up and go scuba diving in Mexico then claim bankruptcy (sp?) four times over. But...why are they allowed credit at all after a certain point? I can't imagine being $80K in debt over anything other than a house, but to nullify it then start over? Aren't there red flags waving all over the application? Fool me once...

[peanut4us]

I dont understand that either Joanne? I guess they figure some of those people would rather "die" than declare bankrupty, so they get their money in the consolidation loans... and get a dime a week for the rest of those people's lives??? Honestly, i have no idea why anyone would want to give credit to people like that... but then, I have no idea why anyone would want to give credit to kids in college with no job either!

One of the beautiful things about texas is that when you declare bankruptcy, your house is protected... no matter how opulent... you get to keep it. Just ask Willie Nelson ;)

[JulieL]

This is written by my favorite artist, Sara Groves. This is the lyrics to a song on her new album, The Other Side Of Something, that is so fitting to this discussion. She speaks of her own progression to want more as her life goes on and how silly it gets.


All I Need:

Newly married, new apartment
All our furniture was saved from the dump
Yes dear maybe we can afford a trashcan next month

All I need is my love for you and a seat for two

New baby new life
We will teach him to speak French
We’ve got no money so we’ll make it all ourselves
I’ll make the curtains and you make the shelves

All I need is a power saw and a new sewing machine

Honey, this house needs a little something
That bare mantle doesn’t look so good
Someone told me of a man
Who makes animals from driftwood

All I need is your monthly bonus for a wooden walrus

Honey, the Colbaughs are coming over
This house needs some renovations
Just a wall or two, just a little room
And a few new decorations

All I need is a sectional and a satellite TV
and dark-wood cabinets that were custom built for me
and a painting by that guy that paints with his feet...

That’s all I need
For now