x

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

sheesh...

[lag555]

I agree with you. According to the studies, there is almost nothing you can eat or do that is good for you. Let alone for your kids. I try to ignore the "studies" as much as possible.


Aggie

[Rachels]

It actually drives me a little crazy when people dismiss all research out of hand. There ARE such things as good studies, and it's definitely not true that you can get any result you want just by tweaking variables (provided you're doing a well-designed study with appropriate stats). Peer-reviewed journals are incredibly rigorous about what they will and won't publish as far as research methodology goes. If you really study research methodology and stats, you develop a quick appreciation for what research can and cannot do. Personally, I'm glad much of it exists. It helps me lead a healthier life and do better by my child. If I ignored it all, I'd miss a heck of a lot of important information.

However, just because a study says something, I don't scrap whatever I'm doing to jump on board. I tend to actually check out the research and stats and look at whether the study is or can be replicated with similar results. As with many things, in research, there's strength in numbers. If ten well-designed studies all say the same thing, it's likely an accurate finding. And it's studies that have helped identify things like the link between smoking and lung cancer, or treatments for AIDS, or understandings of development in infants. It's not all crap.

About this study in particular, it freaks me out a little because it's similar to other research showing a link between sleep disorders and substance abuse in adults. But here's the thing: a link is not an absolute. And it's not clear yet whether sleep problems lead to abuse or whether (more likely) there's a common cause of both. But even though I don't really like what this study found, given that I have a child who has had some sleep problems, I don't dismiss it. It's good to know about, and I'll keep my ears open for more. There are things to do to help with sleep and things to do to help ward off substance abuse. If I know there is a risk factor, I can evaluate what steps we need to take (if any) as Abby gets older to help keep her safe. If I ignored everything I read in the way of studies, I'd know a lot less and my child would be more at risk.

There's a difference between not wanting to hear what studies have to say and all studies being total hogwash.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[nohomama]

Hear! Hear!

You said it so well Rachel, I have nothing of substance to add.

[mommd]

I just wanted to add that what the study ACTUALLY says and what the media THINKS it says, are often very different...

I agree with strength in numbers, ten studies saying the same thing versus one study are more likely to be accurate.

I *think* this study is talking about sleep disorders and not just a lack of sleep, with disorders probably caused by organic problems in certain areas of the brain, which may be the same areas involved in substance abuse problems. Other studies have shown similar results.

There have been some questionable research published in even top-notch peer reviewed journals, but MOST of the studies published in decent journals are accurate.

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

Sorry if it "drives you crazy" I stand by what I said...
and edited to say my intention was not to start a debate so I'll leave it at that...sorry folks if this leads where I didn't intend in my post...
Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties

[Rachels]

Edited to remove. My apologies to Neve. This came off as harsh, and it's not what I intended. I meant to respond to the idea, not the poster herself, and I'm sorry for not wording this more carefully.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[KathyO]

Good summary.

Epidemiological links are very complex, and it's devilishly hard to control all the variables when (a) you don't yet know what they all are, and (b) you are dealing with humans with all their habits and individualities. So yes, studies are an imperfect tool, but they're the best thing we have. It's silly to discount all of them because a few are inconclusive or ill-designed. It's also silly to ignore a tidal wave of accumulating data that does all point to a particular truth.

We all do the best we can with the information we have. Science, when well performed, is your tool in this effort, not your enemy. Knowledge is power. You just have to be a thinking consumer the same way you are when you choose the material gear you use in raising your child.

Cheers,

KathyO

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

Rachel this is all I'm saying on it...but I didn't say I dismiss research, I don't believe many studies and I stand by that. I didn't say I don't believe all studies etc...and oddly enough I think listen to the medical community as much as anyone:)...

Since my child doesn't suffer from insomnia really it doesn't effect me at this moment in my life...again I did not say this to be so evaluated by my remarks...I really come here to shoot the you know what and relax some...


Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties

[suribear]

I agree with Rachel. The problem, however, is that not everyone has the background to understand which studies are sound. So we live off media soundbites and it does all get VERY confusing after awhile!

And yes, there is a difference between association and causation.

Kris

[khakismom]

For me, I think the issue I have with all these studies is that I don't parent my children based on what any one (or 2, or 3, etc) study says. I raise my children on my beliefs, how I was raised, and from my heart. I actually don't even hear about these random studies except thru these boards. So the idea that I might hear a new study and then go out and do research to make sure it's believable and valid is completely foreign to me. That's not how I parent nor how I want to spend my time. Spending hours wading thru research material to prove I'm doing all the right things? Nah, not when I can be on the floor playing with my girls. :) Life is too short.

ETA: The other issue I have with these studies is how gloom and doom they all seem to be (so I agree with Neve in her original post). Who wants to read all this depressing stuff? And I hate finding it here, mainly because I liken this place to a bunch of friends sitting around chatting. And I would rather talk about the good stuff with girlfriends. :)

[mommd]

You're right. Not everyone has degrees in stats or epidemiology. Not everyone subscribes to respected journals, nor have the time to read them if they did. A lot of people live off media soundbites, which are not representative of the original studies. When seemingly conflicting studies come out "eggs are bad for you" one week and "no they're not" the next week, it can get confusing for the average person to sort out. I think that's what the original post was about. No reason to call someone uneducated for not having the same understanding of research.

[Rachels]

I'm not calling anyone uneducated for not having that background! And I'm in total agreement with all the media comments. My beef is with the unwillingness to BE educated, or to learn anything from research. I'm not saying we should all run out and take classes, but if there are folks who really do understand it, it's worth not rejecting what they say outright. I'm not talking about myself, either. I'm just saying that if you don't have education in one area, it's worth at least seeking info about what the experts say if it pertains to the wellness of your child. Being unwilling to do that or to learn more about it yourself but then rendering opinions on the quality of studies doesn't make any sense to me.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[christic]

This is from one of my favorite websites www.stats.org. It's a guide to making sense of the latest health scare and how much weight to give it in your own life.

http://www.stats.org/files/upld-news462pdf?.pdf

I agree with many of the posters here that there is often a huge difference between the studies themselves and the way they're presented in the media. And I certainly share Neve's frustration with trying to wade through it all. With enough time and knowledge we could certainly all do the kind of analysis that Rachel's suggesting, but I thought this little leaflet was a good substitute for the lay person :).

Chris

[JenCA]

Maureen, you described how I feel about this subject perfectly. I certainly don't dismiss studies, but I also don't spend a lot of time researching them, either. I do what I feel is best for my child, I educate myself when I need to know more, and in that respect, I'm doing the very best that I can for her. I don't need a study to validate what I am/am not doing. I think I'm doing just fine. ;)

[Rachels]

And you probably are! We all probably are. My thought is not that studies should validate what you're doing (although that can be helpful, as when our GI scoffed at breastfeeding), but that they're an opportunity to learn more. I trust my instincts greatly, too, and I certainly don't spend hours researching every little thing. But if I don't know what to do, I research. And if I hear about a study that has implications for the health of my child, I learn about it.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Rachels]

Great site! :)

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[mik8]

First of all, let me preface by saying that I don’t have any clue what study is being referred on this thread. I just wanted to chime IMHO regarding studies and research in general. As parents, we all do what’s best for our kids and follow our parental instincts to the best of our knowledge, abilities, not to mention our heart. Some research/studies are very well constructed and are founded on good solid grounds while others are; let’s just say “weak.” Prior to any paper publication regarding a particular research, a “peer review” is done by a group of people who are supposedly experts on the field related to the study conducted. They do all the methodological critiques and recommendations on the subject before a journal or paper accepts it. Thus, revisions could occur prior to the final publication. Once the article goes out to the public, it’s all subject to “everybody’s interpretation”.
We could choose to learn from it, debate on it, critique on it, agree with it, or ignore it all. That's our personal choice.
As a layman (and wife to a scientist) myself and therefore not trained to evaluate the validity of a research, I can choose to either believe them or not.

[starrynight]

I'm not sure which study this thread was about but honestly why can't anyone just have an opinion anymore? It seems everytime a news study/research thing comes up on this board and someone's opinion is of the nature that they don't believe it, think it's silly or whatever a few people get on a soapbox about 'well it's research and it's not always wrong, it's science' etc to that effect. Well I research so much every day as a parent, whether to treat this whether to buy that, too much this that and the other. So everytime a new study comes along I don't always have the time nor the desire to check it out and if I think off the top of my head it's a silly study I or anyone else that feels that way should be able to say so without being spoken to like they are an unresearched or uneducated idiot.
I and I'm sure other parents come here to relax and sometimes just bounce around ideas about things and to have conversation with people who are more than 2 feet tall and hopefully out of diapers ;). Not to debate whether or not our (general) opinions on some new study are ok to express.

[Rachels]

Sure. Of course it's okay to dismiss research. And it's okay to state that some of it might be important and worth taking seriously. It's a CONVERSATION, nothing more, nothing less. If we don't all need to agree all the time, which I think is entirely reasonable, then we also don't need to go nuts when someone expresses disagreement. I disagreed with some of the ideas in the OP, some have disagreed with me. Okay. Who cares? I don't think it's worth deleting posts and refusing to speak or acting like the whole thread is a waste. Where did the idea come from that it's only okay to discuss things if everybody feels exactly the same way? If these kinds of discussions aren't what you come here for, there's truly no need to read them. It's not worth getting your blood pressure up, KWIM? Just skip them. I think they're interesting, so I post, but if anyone doesn't feel that way, no need to trouble yourself with it. There's no requirement that everyone read and respond to everything, and we can all (and do) skip posts that involve people or ideas we're not that interested in. No different here. :)

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Melanie]

Well shoot, I gather there's a new release about a health study, but I have no idea what b/c it's gone!

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

Aime, only since you said you don't know what study was mentioned...
I wanted to clarify :)...

Really the study was not what I wanted folks to walk away from after reading it...I really was just jokingly laughing with a sleeping child in my arms at how doomed we must feel as parents at times with so many studies telling us what damage we are doing for our children in the future...It really was said in a fun way...joking, and personally saying I don't put much into many of these studies such as this anyway.

It took a total turn from the fun loving INTENTION I had and grew from there. Really I have so learned that to share such a thing would get nipped by two I'm really use to it by now...

I'm conducting my own study now since I am certain this can't just rest with this clarification...

I am just saddened that if one really knew how little effort and mind energy was spent in my words that they spent so much time responding to them...

Honestly it was meant to be a mindless post...and on my part still is :)...
I should probably just stick with
"cute baby, cute picture, happy birthday posts"....
The good news is many of us had a laugh at it and did enjoy it for what it was intented to say :)...the aftermath if it catches you at the right time can be pretty entertaining in itself when you start to predict it...

Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties

[mik8]

Neve,

"I'm conducting my own study now since I am certain this can't just rest with this clarification..." - You are so funny!


Now, you sparked my interest on this study. Link? Btw, this is a "discussion board" and by virtue of the freedom of speech, I think you are protected under that right! :)

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

it was something I quickly heard on CNN and really I barely remember I think I was getting cheese shoved into my mouth by little T while I caught it quickly...

But it was some study that seems to show , or is trying to show...(using my words carefully with a disclaimer) :)...that young toddlers who have insomnia have twice as much risk of abusing alcohol, tabacco and I think drugs...
So not really a stab at parenting skills but just something else for us all to be left with crying over if our child doesn't sleep...added on top of the traumatic stress disorder if left to cry in crib etc...

Really thank goodness lack of sleep has never been T's issue...now waking to get a drink in the night yes...:)

Thank god I personally don't get to wound up over these studies, since I hope to be adopting children who have to be in an institution for ALEAST 14 months before they are even made available, have bottles propped all day long, sit on toilets for hours a day are fed watered down bread almost from birth you can only imagine that I'm behind the eight ball to begin with...
I know these are awful situations with huge obsticles for them to overcome but I hope one can see with that PLUS MANY MORE things possibly (without a doubt) that I chose to research what I want to research :)...and feel doomed and gloomed with what I might select not to...:)


Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties

[Sarah1]

Yeah, I was looking for it, too--where'd it go? Wanted to see what all the hoopla was about...

[mik8]

ah, interesting! Btw, best of luck to you and Steve on the adoption.

[Melanie]

You bring up an interesting point about adopting institutionalized children. Since I try to take a lot of care in parenting choices we've made, research everything, blah blah blah, that we do with/for/around Ds, I also think on the other hand about my adoption desire and what the child may have been exposed to early on. I don't really have any profound thoughts on the matter, just thought it was interesting that you pointed it out since I've thought about it as well.

[memedee]

:"Where did the idea come from that it's only okay to discuss things if everybody feels exactly the same way? "
Well,when people do not agree the discussion sounds a lot like an argument.
A friend of mine that I have tried to have discussions with actually said to me "You are trying to change my mind and it is making me angry"
so no discussions there EVER
I personally think that everybody is entitled to their own opinion and that my opinion is always the correct one!!

[starrynight]

How on earth do they even test such a study? Unless they followed children from toddlerhood to adulthood and also took into account all other factors such as family history etc.

I had insomnia as an infant/toddler and sometimes still do but the kids have somewhat cured me of it. I remember very vividly being around 2 and being awake after my parents went to sleep, just lying or sitting in my crib. I wasn't scared or anything just couldn't sleep. I don't drink, do drugs or smoke. Heck one drink or beer socially makes me tipsy :P Of course I'm just one person but geesh they couldn't spend research money on something more important like the cure for something like diabetes?

[kijip]

Having written and conducted research (on topics from rape, gender, advertising, customer satisfaction and the like) and being a stats freak (majoring in math and economics will do that to a person!), I just want to point out that not only does the media skew the meaning of the data by reporting a tiny shred of the actual info, researchers can and do skew results by the way they approach the topic. Much of science, including the standards used for research, is the product of our cultural paradigm. I believe very much in the value of research and data, but when reading the fine print, I have found many studies that violate by the book principals. This does not make all studies bad. Hearing unduplicated studies touted in the media and by special interest groups is what makes people dismiss studies in the first place. Not lack of education- people just get tired of hearing all the hype!

[Kimberly H]

Melanie, it was this way for me too. I'd raised the boys so carefully, from being pregnant through their early teens, and it scared me that Mia would've been institutionalized through that all-important first year.

She's a dream. She's not perfect, but she's a dream.

I've learned through parenting my own bio kids into their teenage years and from this little one who's such a blessing and fits likes she's always been here, that kids are RESILIENT and you can make a whole lot of parenting mistakes and everything works out okay.

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

There are many many programs where children are not institutionalized. In fact most folks I know who have adopted have adopted children who were in a foster care setting...

So if the thoughts are heavy on your mind you might want to start researching those options...

I strongly feel my children are in Ukraine so thus going that route...and there they are in institutions of all different kinds, and there they have to be there for atleast 14months before anyone other than a Ukraine can adopt them.
Actually I correct myself...they have to be 14 months to be adopted , they have to be 12 months "registered" as an orphan before they can be considered by non Ukraine citizens. UNLESS "severe" medical problems...

Thank goodness you are a self described "research everything" individual for you will uncover the route best for you I am certain...the internet helps so much that is for certain...

Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties