WWYD? When kids are uncomfortable around a certain adult... long sorry

[boys2enough]

Do you trust their instinct? Do you ask the mom what is going on? How to do this without offending them?



My 6 yo and DH go to an activity class together once a week. I found out recently from the mom of another boy that they also go to an activity class somewhere else and it costs a lot less there. So DH talked to my DS last night about going to the class with his friend and his dad. We thought he'd be excited since he loves playing with the kid, and he also loves going to their house and play. (We sort of have a standing play date once a week).

To DH's surprise, DS lost his smile and was like a deflated ballon. When dh asked him what's wrong. DS simply said Never mind. After much prodding, he finally told DH that he does not like the kid's dad. Apparently on one of the playdates at their house, the father happened to be home (for some reason). This kid DARED his father to take off his shirt. (The boy, to my dismay, loves to "DARE" people. We've frequently told DS that the bravest thing to do is in fact not to accpet any stupid dare...)

Well, then the dad DID! So the boy took off his shirt as well, and his brother took off his shirt. Then the 3 of them started dancing around the living room and being silly.

Now this sounds like something my own DH would do, you know, being silly and stuff. But DS for some reason felt very uncomfortable during that episode. I guess he just stood there and watched the whole thing without participating.

Then he concluded by saying that he does not like the boy's dad.

I told DH that even though I don't think it is much of anything, just a dad being silly around his boys, we should respect DS's discomfort and NOT go to the activity class with them, even though it is a lot cheaper. We want to let DS know that we will take things that he tells us very seriously, so that he will continue to tell us everything.

NOW, I don't know what to do next. Do I still let him play at the boy's house? He still wants to go there and play with him. This lady also babysits both of my boys sometimes. Should I find a different babysitter?

I would like to know what exactly happened because I don't think it is fair to make up our mind about this father just because he did something that, to me, seems harmless. Should I ask the mom? How should I phrase it so that I don't offend her?

I know this is a Baby forum, but so many of you seem so level-headed and always have good parenting advice to share. Could you please let me know what you would do? Thank you so so much. Lin

[amp]

Wow! That's a difficult situation! I think I would try to find out from my son whether there is anything else that is remotely inappropriate with that dad. I suspect that you are right and that it was just silliness, but my instinct is also to trust your kid's instinct and not force him to be around someone that makes him uncomfortable. I don't think we should ever *force* kids to spend time with anyone they really don't like, except in certain circumstances that would be very different than this.

I'm not sure I'd ask the mom anything at this point, because she's most likely to take offense. I'd grill your son a little more. Has anything else *ever* happened to make him uncomfortable there? If he doesn't want to be around the dad and go to a class w/ them, then what's different about being at the house playing? Is the dad not there then? Maybe he just legitimately doesn't like the guy, but there's nothing going on. Then again, maybe there is. So I'd try to support your son and try to get more info and see what your gut tells you. If necessary, by all means, speak to the woman, or sever contact if need be, but it might just be that he likes to go to the house when the dad isn't there and there's really nothing in appropriate going on. I've had friends in my life that I didn't like a certain parent and while they never did anything wrong, they made me feel very uncomfortable (even just cuz they were a grouch). I just avoided that parent and continued to play at their house.

Good luck!

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

You are in a very hard situation....VERY HARD....
and without reading another response so I am not influenced as to what I think I'll just give my opinion since you ask.

First I think, saddly, you have to realize that you will probably never really know what happened or even be able to put a finger on what makes your son uncomfortable with this dad.
I do not think it is anything that you can really ask the kids mom about personally...I turned down a sitter (when I worked and was pregnant the first time) whose hubby was a school teacher and home for some months, and another whose husband was unemployed (and many in this state were back then it was in the recession and he had a good techie job prior), I'll let folks flame me for that but that was my decision and I gladly stick by that one FOR ME...

I would let your son call the shots here...I admire that at that young age that if he felt comfortable he actually shared that with you. for children seldon question authority (adults) when suspicious and I'd encourage his behavior to share this and make your decisions around that.

Again I think the most important thing for you right now is to realize that there probably is not an answer...and that it is just a uncomfortable feeling.

When I was about this age a friends father told me that a "fake" mole looked good on me and that I should consider getting one one day, honest to god it was just a majic market mole we put on our face, but at that age his attention to me over this beauty mark made me uncomfortable...I can't even describe this man to this day but I remember that....I never in a million years would have told my parents. and things happened in my childhood that I never ever shared with them...so I am so proud of your son for trusting you with such emotions, that is great!!!!
Trust your sons gut feeling in that he is only sharing that he doesn't want to hang out with this dad...

Just my two cents...

Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties

[Sarah1]

Lin,

I agree with Andrea and Neve. I wouldn't say anything to the mom at this point, and even though it probably was just harmless silliness, I'd indulge your DS for a while and not go if he's uncomfortable. After a period of time, he may forget about it. I'd probably just let some time pass and take it from there, but for now, I'd just take your cues from your DS.

Good luck...what a tricky situation!

[lukkykatt]

This is a tough situation, and I admire your son for talking to you about it.

When I was young, I was afraid of all of my friends' fathers, basically. I was just very shy and used to being around all of the moms but not the dads. Also, there was one woman in my parents' group of friends who had a very deep and slow voice. It was very frightening to me when I was young. My parents did not force me to go to any of my friends' houses if I didn't want to because their fathers would be there (say on the weekend). Also I know my parents had to start declining going to certain events if their friend with the scary voice would be there. Eventually, I did grow out of it...

Just trying to give a perspective from someone who used to have fears. It was very comforting to know that my parents were on my side. If it were me, I would follow your son's cues on this and not make him do anything that makes him feel uncomfortable. I think I would also see if he can tell you any other information about that incident just to make sure he has told you the whole story. And, I think for now, I would not leave him there alone, just to be safe. I am guessing that they were just being silly, but I would want to be sure that's all there was to it. And I don't think I would talk to the mom for now - I wouldn't want to risk offending her.

[toomanystrollers]

Yes, like the PPS have mentioned - I would honor my son's feelings and discomfort. Personally, I'd probably would switch sitters too and switch the playdates to your home (make up an excuse). I'd rather err on the side of extreme caution than to possibly put my kids in a harmful situation.

I mean just a couple weeks ago here - a BBB mom (NC area - forgot the OP's name) posted how her neighbor was arrested for producing explicit & violent child pornography.

[Lucia]

Good for you for listening and respecting your son. Unfortunatedly, we live in a society that is rampant with sexual and physical abuse and one of the most important things parents can teach their kids is to listen to their guts and also share their concerns with you. This is not to say that anything inappropriate happened during the visit, but your son obviously did not feel comfortable and he is letting you know that.

Lucia
mom to Noah 2/2003

[suribear]

"To DH's surprise, DS lost his smile and was like a deflated ballon. When dh asked him what's wrong. DS simply said Never mind."

This statement makes me wonder. I would definitely heed his feelings on this. It may have been completely harmless, but for some reason or another it made your son uncomfortable. Maybe the father prodded your ds to remove his shirt and he didn't want to. Or who knows what happened! Chances are it was nothing.

The main thing is to trust his feelings so he will get the message that mom and dad are listening and respect my feelings, so I will tell them what's going on in my life. I think this would be much harder if it was an uncle or very close friend. Just tell them you changed your mind about the class.

How old is your ds? Have you seen the book "The Right Touch" by Sandy Kleven?

Kris

[boys2enough]

Thank you all for sharing your wisdom with me and for being so honest in your thoughts and opinions. (I truly believe that's why people love this board. :) ) Not to brag about it, but both DH and I are unabashedly proud of our big boy. :) I think this is what we will do for now: respect his discomfort and keep the playdates at home. Yes, I think erring on the cautious side is a wise thing to do, unfortunate but true. Thank you all again!

Cheers, Lin
Mom to 2 wild boys
D 3/98
G 11/02

[boys2enough]

Hi, we must have posted at the same time. :) Thank you for responding to my call for help. DS1 is 6, but very mature for his age: he watches Lord of the Rings, reads Harry Potter, and so on. DH and I treat him like an adult most of the time when we talk to him. I've always wondered whether there is a book that helps parents talk to their young children about this. As soon as I finished typing this message I am going to Amazon.com to check this book out. Thank you so much!

Cheers, Lin
Mom to 2 wild boys
D 3/98
G 11/02

[flagger]

I think there is a lot of jumping to conclusions in this thread by some people because there are predators out there. While I am not saying that your DS is being dishonest, I would certainly try to get an account of what happened from the father and or the mother before passing judgment.

We were at the playarea at the mall today and a little boy stepped on Cocoa's hand on purpose. When he did it a second time, I quite clearly said "DO NOT STEP ON HER HAND". I guarantee you that boy would never be comfortable around me again. He may tell his dad "That man yelled at me" but would probably not be as forthcoming as to why. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubts in many cases.

But if having playdates at your house works for your, so be it. I know I have hosted playdates at my house and had Ms. Flagger home just for the reason of certain parents being uncomfortable with a SAHD. I am going to watch a friend's daughters and her son next week while she goes to a Parent Teach conference and think nothing of it.

I do think there is always a possibility of different version of the facts.

[suribear]

I don't think anyone suggested that this guy definitely did something wrong!! We don't know that. The point is, if you don't know for sure, why take a chance? There is nothing wrong with respecting the kid's feelings. At most they lose a carpool partner, which is no big deal.

I have a number of friends who were molested, and only two of them told their parents. More often than not, noone says anything so you have to look for clues or discomfort. I prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to my child!

Kris

[christic]

I guess I'm much closer to Flagger's opinion of this episode. Why interpret a child saying he doesn't like someone to mean that person is a potential predator? There are SO many other genuine reasons not to like being around a person--why jump immediately to something sexual or abusive? We had a conversation at playgroup a couple weeks ago about how all of us knew a father that we were either afraid of or didn't like for some reason. It was mainly because they just weren't around much, or were loud, or just different from our own dads. I remember being completely freaked out at a slumber party when we could hear my friend's father snoring like an asthmatic water buffalo upstairs. Would I have felt comfortable hanging out with him?--No Way! But imagine the conclusions people would jump to today if a little girl came home from a slumber party saying "I don't like Becky's dad."

Did you ever have a friend who you loved being around one-on-one but didn't like so much when they were around other people and behaving a little differently? When I first read this story that's what came to mind for me, along with the fact that the boy felt understandably left out and uncomfortable during this odd bit of family fun. That's reason enough not to like the dad. And to feel like this man may then enter the picture during class and interrupt the special one-on-one time between a father and son--well that's reason enough to avoid the cheaper class.

Obviously any individual instance of child abuse is a sickening tragedy, but the actual rates of abduction and exploitation are much lower than they may sound from media reports. I can link some articles if anyone's interested. But I'm starting to worry more about this culture of fear we seem to be raising children in today. A child's feelings about people deserve discussion and thought, even if it's not liking your friend's dad because he interrupted the fun you were having on your play date, or fearing you may be eaten alive by your friend's dad the water buffalo :).

Chris

[flagger]

>I don't think anyone suggested that this guy definitely did
>something wrong!! We don't know that. The point is, if you
>don't know for sure, why take a chance?

Actually someone said it was possible that something was done wrong:

I'd rather err on the side of extreme caution than to possibly put my kids in a harmful situation.

Why does anyone mention molestation in a thread that has nothing to do with an apparent molestation to begin with? This is exactly how people jump to conclusions As told by the child and as viewed the OP, this was a case of silliness that her own DH would have probably done. The child in this case even says he wants to still go over to his friend's house. Well if there is a chance that dad might be home, why on earth would he go? Isn't this a case of the child being rather fickle on this issue. I think the OP should definitely ask the mother and or the father for their version of events. I am not saying children lie, but they do have active imaginations.

Remember I am a SAHD. Anytime one of Cocoa's friend's comes to play, the father will always be home. I am pretty darn sensitive to this fact as well. There were lots of my friend's mother's I was never that comfortable around when I was growing up. Certainly there was never a case of sexual abuse by a friend's mom.

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

Actually I can honestly say I don't think I jumped to any conclusion (and can only speak for myself)...but I still think even if I was able to have been a fly on the wall and I witnessed exactly what he said about the taking off of the shirt and them playing and even if I witnessed them ALL laughing etc... I still would trust my child's thoughts on this. And that is said without even judging the taking off of the shirt (which to me is kinda odd), so aside from if I think that is weird or not. If I could be a fly on the wall and if I witnessed them all sitting down drinking milk and eating cookies if my well spoken, smart 6 year old said he didn't want to hang out with this dad...and most of all if I saw his energy deflate like a balloon that is all I would need to hear.

Predator aside I would listen to him...
now predator not aside even more so...

I'm just speaking for me...and your example Flagger is a good one, for you are correct if someone disciplined a young child they too might come to such a conclusion...but again I'd chose to listen, I'd weigh and listen and act per my child's wishes...

I have to say I am careful that Steve is not put in a situation where he would ever have to defend any of his actions around young kids. It sux that is for certain...but when I had Tristan a neighbor (nor really a friend) a neighbor who I knew very little came over with a gift and dinner...her 4- 5 year old boy came over and had to pee...he went into my guest bathroom and Steve followed him in to move my shower curtain since a good friend of mine's son pee'd near it once. Now could that have been mistaken for something-sure but there was a good reason and if someone didn't know that is a $600 shower curtain and another $120 to make...that it is embroidried silk bees on diopini silk and cascades/puddles to the floor where it could be stepped on and pee'd on by a 5 year old who can't control his aim....CERTAINLY....

After the fact I told Steve that from now on we should just motion these kids upstairs or take the time out to explain to the parents that I fear my shower curtain getting pee'd on...and that he could be put in a uncomfortable situation...

It is a hard world for children...and even for innocent folks whose innocent actions can be misunderstood...but it is unfortunate that that is where our world is today....

I hear ya...but still know I'd listen to my child and trust their instinct...I wish my parents trusted mine on more than one occasion....
Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties

[boys2enough]

A child's feelings about
>people deserve discussion and thought, even if it's not liking
>your friend's dad because he interrupted the fun you were
>having on your play date, or fearing you may be eaten alive by
>your friend's dad the water buffalo :).

I hear you and Flagger, and that is why this has been so hard on us. I tend to be on the trusting side, and tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. But since DS did tell us about the "taking off the shirt and dancing" episode and that he does not like the father, I feel that I have to respect his feelings and take them seriously, in order to encourage him to continue to be honest and be open about his feelings with us.

To update on what happened: I asked DS again. (It's hard to try to appear casual when I was in fact "grilling" him. I need practice on this :) ). He told me the same thing he told DH, the taking the shirt off part. The kid dared him to take his shirt off. DS told the kid he is not allowed to take his shirt off in front of guests, but the kid said, "But I AM allowed," and he took off the shirt, the dad took off the shirt, and the little brother took off the shirt because he does wahtever his older brother does. DS then said that he didn't want to go to their house any more. "Well, I like his mom... But I don't like (the kid) because he was mean to me and didn;t want to play what I wanted to play... I don't like his dad. I don't know why. I just don't." At this point I reassured him that he doesn't have to like everybody he meets, and yes, sometimes you may dislike someone for no reason that you can think of.

I found out that the MOM WAS THERE AS WELL. I didn't ask DS, he just mentioned that the mom sighed and said, "I am going to leave my 3 boys here. I have to go cook!" and she went into the kitchen which is right next to the living room. The funny thing is DS said, "You know, she said '3 boys,' she didn't mean ME. I wasn't taking my shirt off!"

So I am sure nothing inapproprite happened. I will probably never know why DS was so traumatized by the incident (he is usually fearless and we have enough silliness in this household, and we are not shy about our bodies in this household albeit not in front of guests...) or why he has such a strong negative feeling towards the father (DS is very friendly and makes friends easily).

I agree with you that he might just feel left out and felt that the dad spoiled the fun and was there to via for attention. And I feel bad for unconsciously jumping into the conclusion that something inappropriate may have happened: really, the "taking off shirt" part just threw us off, kwim? even though seeing a guy without his shirt on is not such a big deal, esp. on a hot summer day. But it is just uncharactristic of DS to react to something or somebody so strongly that we were shocked. And since DS was brave enough to voice his dislike of an adult, we have to respect that. Don't want him to stop telling us things.

And Flagger, I am so glad that you responded to my post. I wondered about how you would feel, but didn't want to single you out by asking you directly. Now I can see it from your perspective, I can understand how the talks of "err on the cautious" side is making you feel. But like Neve, I specifically warned DH to be very very careful around other kids. It is sad, but it is unfortunately necessary. It only needs some kind of inkling of questioning to ruin somebody's good name.

Now, I wonder whether folks are still willing to help me out here. I need to find a good way to cancel the playdates and a baby sitting appointment without offending them. I would like to tell the mom the truth, but I would feel very very bad if they think for a second that I am accusing her DH of anything. kwim? Wouldn't that just upset you a lot and become something that you will forever remember, unhappily?

I am thinking that I could start by saying, "Oh you were there too, and you probably didn't realize that for some reason, DS was freaked out when they were dancing around without their shirts on..."

Is this going to work at all? Thank you thank you all so so much. And please, I didn't mean to create any discord among BBB friends. :)


Cheers, Lin
Mom to 2 wild boys
D 3/98
G 11/02

[suribear]

I brought up molestation because that is just ONE of the possibilities, and it's the one that makes ME really cautious, for reasons I don't need to explain or justify.

I stand by what I said earlier. I agree it sucks for the majority of people who are kind and decent, but I'm not taking any chances if my child expresses some discomfort! There is little to lose and much to gain by listening to our kids, even if it's just a silly whim (the fact that it involved removing their shirts did make it odd, since that's what the boy mentioned). Now I DO think it would have been different if the person in question was very close to the family (like an uncle). I still wouldn't leave them alone with my kids, just in case, but I would have to dig deeper.

In this case, I'm glad it probably turned out to be a false alarm :) Let me think about your question.

Kris

[christic]

Lin,

I guess I'm confused about whether your son still wants to play over there or not. If he does, then personally I wouldn't stop him. Honestly I don't know how you explain to either the other family or your son why you're preventing him from going if he continues to want to play there.

But, if your son doesn't want to go back I think you could explain the story exactly as you have here. That your son felt freaked out after the last time he was there and he needs some time playing on his own turf with the boy. It sounds more and more like a conflict with the friend to me, complicated by the fact that his father encouraged a game that your son didn't want to play.

Good luck!

Chris

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

Flag, I hadn't read this post till this morning or I would have responded last night....
I know I for one spoke up that I don't want T watched by a sitter whose hubby is around, assuming I don't know the hubby, and fair or not that is my choice and I have the luxury of following thru on that. But if it was your case and you were the stay at home parent then I have gotten to know YOU (I would assume if my child is at your home) and thus the difference.

Some might still have a problem with that...and I know it is difficult...and most of the time totally unfair that is for certain...just thought I should clarify on that one that if your the one I know as opposed to a sitters hubby who I might not know then in my eyes that is different.

Again back to my example previously...it is not only possibly no fair BUT a dad (and mom too I guess) is also left to watch every little action they do when children are around just to prevent some story of even sounding bad....
It sux, it's not fun, it ruins many experiences and activities that one might normally feel comfie with but in this day and age I think with children it is best to be cautious...


Neve
http://home.nc.rr.com/ourbabytristan
AKA "mama2be"-forgot password
and Baby Boy Tristan born @UNC
Feb 25, 2003
Brother to 3 pups "gees" and 2 kitties

[stella]

I don't think you can tell her the truth. I think you're just going to have to distance yourself and be unavailable when she wants ds to come to their house.

Shy about bodies or not, I think the taking off the shirts is weird and in my opinion, any taking off of basic clothes is strange with guests around - unless it's in relation to bed or bath or swimming.

I think of whether this had been a daughter instead of a son - and the dad took his shirt off - we'd be a little more alarmed or prone to err on the side of caution, I think.

If your son is uncomfortable about the situation and doesn't want to be around the dad, I don't think anyone should make him. And the truth will cause BIG problems between the two families - I can almost assure you.

Because it is almost certain that nothing bad happened - you have ascertained that with your son. But he felt it was inappropriate, and I think it was, too.

So if you tell the mom it's just going to sound like you're accusing her husband of sexual abuse of little boys. Even if that's not what you're saying. She will be so defensive and it is likely to be a BIG mess.

AND by talking to her, you would be compromising your son's confidentiality. He confided in you and his dad and he will almost certainly hear about how you went to his friend's mom and told her what he said - I think it undermines his trust in you. And I think we all REALLY want to preserve that with our kids. I want them to feel like they can tell me anything and that I will not embarrass them by the steps I take. Nothing needs to be corrected in this case because nothing happened - no damage was done. All your son wants is to avoid being at their house and YOU can make that happen by just avoiding her or limiting your contact with her.

I feel for you, but on your son's behalf, I would not tell her the truth - it will just embarrass him, I think!

Good Luck!

[ddmarsh]

I agree that I would not tell her the truth. I think the outcome would be she going way on the defensive and very likely the end of the relationship at some point. Honestly I would just try to steer things over to your house without specifically saying something or make something up if pushed such as "oh my poor DS is just feeling the need to stick close to home lately, you know how they can be sometimes."

I really commend you for listening to your DS's intuition. There is no way of knowing for certain what prompted his reaction and even if it isn't sexually-related I believe it is best to honor his feelings. I also think it is wonderful that he spoke up, often children don't speak up and some unfortunate parents find out after the fact.

I certainly don't agree that it is unfair, etc. to react this way. Statistics speak for themselves in that men are far away more frequently the perpetrators and a perpetrator is far and away more likely to be someone you know.

Good luck and hugs to your DS -

[flagger]

You do what you need to do what you feel best.

Just remember two things.

Statiscally that women commit more abuse than men. Not sexual abuse...just abuse in general.

Any abuse is only perpetrated 4-6% of the time by someone OUTSIDE of the family.

You are more likely to get in a car wreck on the way over to the playdate than anything happening to your son. As you said yourself, you didn't think it was all that bad as told by your son as it was "Something I could see my DH doing, being silly, etc."

I certainly think you should talk to the mother. It sort of sounds like your son is being wishy washy telling your DH that he likes going over to his house and tell you that the friend was being mean to you. I think you would want to know if the shoe was on the other foot. How would you feel if a friend just stopped talking to you and avoided you for fear of offending you.

I never said it is bad for listening to your son, but it is far too dangerous to make a judgment based on something where you did not attend nor witness. It also sounds like though you have issues with this boy because he likes to DARE people.

Remember I face a huge stigma everyday as a SAHD that I do lots of things to avoid, so I am especially sensitive to this.

[Melanie]

"I would let your son call the shots here...I admire that at that young age that if he felt comfortable he actually shared that with you. for children seldon question authority (adults) when suspicious and I'd encourage his behavior to share this and make your decisions around that."

I agree. Plus if you make a big deal out of it when your son is not, it might discourage future discussions w/ you.

[Melanie]

Being uncomfortable is one thing, but her son is turning down an opportunity to go play w/ his own father and his friend b/c of the dad - that tells me something and THAT something is HER son does not want to be around him. Case closed. If he can't trust his parents to honor his feelings and instincts who can/will he go to next time when it MIGHT be something worse?

[ddmarsh]

>Statiscally that women commit more abuse than men. Not sexual >abuse...just abuse in general

The abuse category in general includes neglect which is what women commit more frequently. Moreover, this conversation was in the context of sexual abuse in particular.

>Any abuse is only perpetrated 4-6% of the time by someone OUTSIDE >of the family

This is inaccurate. Statistics indicate that victims know their perpetrator upwards of 95% of the time and while the majority are family members many are not. For example, the National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System indicates that 25% of sexual abuse perpetrators are nonrelatives or nonchildcare related relationships.

[flagger]

The point BEING that there is no indication of sexual abuse in this case nor is there any reason to think there would be. What a crock to jump to such a conclusion in this thread. It part of the reason SAHD have such a stigma.

It was ONLY people in this thread, not the OP that even brought up the option of abuse. It is a NON-ISSUE in this case. CASE CLOSED.

[ddmarsh]

>What a crock to jump to such a conclusion in this thread.

There was no such conclusion by anyone in this discussion. It was merely raised in the context of the issue as a whole.


>It part of the reason SAHD have such a stigma.

The discussion had absolutely nothing to do with SAHDs and certainly the issue of sexual abuse has nothing to do with any supposed "stigma."

[boys2enough]

I want to thank all the people who responded to my questions and gave me your utmost honest opinions. That's what I asked for, and that's what I received. And I really appreciate the diverse perspectives I read here that helped me deal with this thorny situation.

FWIW, here is the update: The mom called me today to reschedule our standing playdate, so I seized that chance and told her what's been going on. I did, however, skip the part where DS said he did not like the father. The reason I decided to be honest with her is that, and Flagger pointed it out as well, if I were the mom/wife, I'd want to know what's going on and to be given an opportunity to explain instead of just being shunned with no explanation. I figured that if I were to cut or limit contact with her family, I'd lose her as a friend for sure, but if I tactfully framed what DS said in the context of "I don't know what's going on with him?" then there'd be a chance that she would not be offended. And if she got offended, then so be it.

Well, she wasn't offended when I called to cancel our playdates. She said that her dh was chasing her kids and tickling them like he always does. She was surprised by the taking the shirt off part though, and said that she didn't remember it being that way. Well, later I asked DS again while we were swinging together, he said the dad came home, took off his shirt, and was just standing there. Then he chased his own kids around the house, went upstairs to put on a new shirt and came downstairs again. This whole time the dad did not pay any attention to him. (Maybe that's why he was unhappy?) I am still puzzled by why DS has such a strong negative reaction, even now when we are talking about it. "What kind of person take their shirt off when you have guests in the house?" (I had to chuckle when he said that).

I do think that this case is CLOSED in our household. I need to stop asking him about it, otherwise in his little head he is just going to amplify the significance of this incident.

Thank you all again for lending me your ears. Again, it would not have been such a bruhaha if there were no baring of any body (by a man or a woman). Because of that, and because of the fact that my otherwise very strong and undisciplined DS had such a strong reaction to it, I, as his mom, understandably were VERY concerned. I believe all parents would react in a similar way, i.e. grateful that he's open about his feelings, and then you respect his wishes and cancel the playdates, hoping that this will encourage him to continue to be honest with you. It is not a man vs woman thing. Or at least not as I intended. Peace out.

Cheers, Lin
Mom to 2 wild boys
D 3/98
G 11/02

[suribear]

Sorry I didn't get around to posting earlier, but it sounds like you sorted it out well :)

Kris

[flagger]

I want to emphasize that I have no issue with listening to and respecting your DS' feelings on this issue. There were several people who brought up issues that are a potential but not necessarily going to happen. I did say that kids seem to have very active imaginations. This last statement by you:

>Well, later I asked DS again while we were swinging together, he said the dad came home, took off his shirt, and was just standing there. Then he chased his own kids around the house, went upstairs to put on a new shirt and came downstairs again. This whole time the dad did not pay any attention to him.<

...is a far different story than what you first posted (as told to your DH):

>...the father happened to be home (for some reason). This kid DARED his father to take off his shirt. (The boy, to my dismay, loves to "DARE" people. We've frequently told DS that the bravest thing to do is in fact not to accpet any stupid dare...) Well, then the dad DID! So the boy took off his shirt as well, and his brother took off his shirt. Then the 3 of them started dancing around the living room and being silly.<

The last story also changed quite a bit from what your DS told you the first time:

>>I asked DS again. (It's hard to try to appear casual when I was in fact "grilling" him. I need practice on this ). He told me the same thing he told DH, the taking the shirt off part. The kid dared him to take his shirt off. DS told the kid he is not allowed to take his shirt off in front of guests, but the kid said, "But I AM allowed," and he took off the shirt, the dad took off the shirt, and the little brother took off the shirt because he does wahtever his older brother does.<<

I am not saying that children are never abused and that horrible things do not happen to children and I am not picking on you Lin at all. I just think this thread shows an example of how the suggestion of something awful potentially happening is rampant throughout our society. It also shows that the story can and does change with children. It is a shame we have to bring up our kids in this sort of environment. Again I am not saying you should force your son to hang around this father. I just think some of the suggestions I and another read as posted by others are just rather discouraging.

[momathome]

Well said, Debbie!
-Lauren

[flagger]

Nevermind again...this troll is sooooo not worth it.

[jennifer13]

Hi Lin,

I've stayed out of this so far because overall I thought people were being helpful, but just wanted to offer you congratulations for handling a difficult situation so well. You should feel very proud of yourself as a parent. You were very appropriate, responsive, and showed excellent judgement. Your boys are lucky to have you.

Jennifer
Mom to Norah 5/23/03

[ddmarsh]

Perhaps you should check the definition of troll.

I find it amusing that in these types of discussions if I correct or disagree with you, you invariably resort to some type of name calling. Typically in a debate one who makes statements that are not factually based or factually inaccurate should expect others to challenge said statements. I am a highly educated, well read and informed person who is able to engage in adult discussions involving differences of opinion. It seems perhaps that you are not, as you continually resort to such sophomoric tactics.

[etwahl]

lin, i just wanted to say congratulations for how you handled this. most importantly, for respecting your son's wishes. i think that's the most important thing out of all this. and i think you gained a lot of trust with him, because you respected the fact that he was uncomfortable around someone and respected him enough as a person to not force him upon someone he clearly was uncomfortable around. you probably have created a situation where he will feel more comfortable talking to you about stuff like this in the future (e.g. what's bothering him).

Tammy,
Mom to Lauren Genevieve
03/12/2003
www.evantammy.com

[flagger]

If you think there is no stigma to being a SAHD, trying being one sometime. My figures are quite accurate thank you.

I am also highly educated and well read. You continually enter discussions that having nothing to do with the original post to try to get a rise out of me. You and your band of cronies can now go congratulate yourselves cause it worked. Score one for the troll patrol.

[ddmarsh]

>You continually enter discussions that having nothing to do with >the original post to try to get a rise out of me.

That statement is so egocentric it borders on the narcissistic. To suggest that I engage in any conversation in order to get any type of response from you is quite absurd. You really might want to consider seeking some type of mental health assistance.

[flagger]

Your comments are frankly not worthy of a response. Off to suggest an ignore button to use on the clueless.

[deborah_r]

Lin,

I almost forgot (to post this, I mean!). I was thinking about this last night when I was doing the dishes. it's a long shot, but I was thinking perhaps this dad has a really hairy chest, or maybe he has a hairy chest and your DH doesn't, or vice versa. I was thinking maybe it was just something like that that wigged him out. Just a thought.

Sounds like you handled the situation very well!

[boys2enough]

>Lin,
>
>I almost forgot (to post this, I mean!). I was thinking
>about this last night when I was doing the dishes. it's a
>long shot, but I was thinking perhaps this dad has a really
>hairy chest, or maybe he has a hairy chest and your DH
>doesn't, or vice versa. I was thinking maybe it was just
>something like that that wigged him out. Just a thought.

Jennifer, Tammy, and Deborah,

Thank you so much for your kind words. I really appreciate it. Who knows parenthood only gets harder as they grow up? I used to tell myself while holding crying babies in the middle of the night: just wait until they are older, then it'll be easier. Yeah, right! lol. Thank goodness for the internet so we parents can be each other's councils and cheerleaders.

Deborah, that is so funny about the chest hair. Yup, that would probably have freaked him out. It would have freaked me out too. ;-) (Now, no offense to people with dark handsome manly DHs... lol)


Cheers, Lin
Mom to 2 wild boys
D 3/98
G 11/02