Warning: May contain controversial material! (Long)

[mamicka]

ET replace: OK - I'm done. I'm obviously not welcome here. I haven't earned the right to have such strong views, being a 'newcomer' and all. So much for diversity & tolerance.

Again, to all those who at least supported my right to have my opinions, thanks. Happy parenting.

I'd also like to thank all the people that have emailed me to show their support for some of the things that I've said & the stands that I've taken. I really appreciate it & I intend to email you all back but haven't had the time yet.

Allison (Mamicka to Lawrence 6/17/03)

The Bible--our only foundation;
Christ--our only hope;
Grace--our only gospel;
Faith--our only instrument;
God's glory--our only goal;
the priesthood of all believers--our only ministry
- Horton

[llcoddington]

I agree. If a person truly has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, it is the single most important thing in his/her life. Every thought, every decision, every belief, and every action are influenced by this relationship. God leads and directs those who have put their trust in Him. What a wonderful thing to have God, the maker of Heaven and earth direct my life. I am very happy to have a President who trusts in God and asks for His direction.

Lana
mommy to Lauren 12/5/03

[mamicka]

Really beautifully said Lana. :)

Allison (Mamicka to Lawrence 6/17/03)

The Bible--our only foundation;
Christ--our only hope;
Grace--our only gospel;
Faith--our only instrument;
God's glory--our only goal;
the priesthood of all believers--our only ministry
- Horton

[Rachels]

I can answer to the numbers question: from the Red Cross and CIA reports that have been submitted to Congress.

As for the rest of it, I won't bother. But try to keep in mind that there are citizens of this country who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, agnostic, atheistic, etc. They are constitutionally protected and have the same rights as you, and they might not exactly agree with your interpretation of "truth" or your certainty that it applies to how they live their lives. And some of those same folks are members of this community. I'm cringing on their behalf right now.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[jojo2324]

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

[Marisa6826]

Can we PLEASE stop all this grandstanding????

This Board is getting really out of control, and I am now officially offended.

The politics were one thing, the current events another, but I will not tolerate religious arguments.

Enough is enough.

-m


ETA- And to think we are MOTHERS. First and foremost. We are supposed to be the peaceful ones here, LADIES.

[MelissaTC]

I agree. Things around here are getting mighty scary...

[llcoddington]

I was being sincere, not grandstanding. This is who I am.
And, I wasn't trying to argue.

Lana
mommy to Lauren 12/5/03

[Rachels]

I am now
>officially offended.
>

Me too.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Marisa6826]

Lana -

I understand and appreciate that. However, the OP just seems to be shoving this topic down our throats again and again.

It's not enough to see that she's offending many on a Board where she is a newcomer. By and large, I've not responded to these topics, but come on now. ANOTHER post to reiterate the same argument?

There's a time to step aside, and it's long past.

-m

[Sarah1]

>But try to keep in mind that there are citizens of this country who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, agnostic, atheistic, etc. And some of those same folks are members of this community.

Rachel, I'm so grateful that you raised this point, because I'm one of those members, and I am cringing along with you.

I know most everyone here is very open-minded, and I think your response serves as a reminder to us all that this community is a diverse one. We need to respect each other's differences, whether it be to co-sleep or CIO, or what religion to practice.

[papal]

Thanks Rachel. I am very offended by the OP.

[mommd]

>
>There's a time to step aside, and it's long past.
>



ITA. Let it go. We are aware of the opinion and have read it many times already. I think this is the first thread that has actually offended me.

[Calmegja2]

>
>As for the rest of it, I won't bother. But try to keep in
>mind that there are citizens of this country who are Jewish,
>Muslim, Hindu, agnostic, atheistic, etc. They are
>constitutionally protected and have the same rights as you,
>and they might not exactly agree with your interpretation of
>"truth" or your certainty that it applies to how they live
>their lives. And some of those same folks are members of this
>community. I'm cringing on their behalf right now.
>
>-Rachel
>Mom to Abigail Rose
>5/18/02

Yup. In complete agreement. And for the record, I'm offended by the OP's negation of my religious choice.

[toomanystrollers]

"You cannot separate your life, in which you have a personal relationship with God, with your 'other' life... whatever that may be. It's just not possible."

Hmmm, how would you explain the Kennedys? - Democratic Irish Catholics - I think they've done well keeping the two seperate.

[mamicka]

I'm not shoving. I haven't brought it up at all, I've only been responding to others posts where it was already brought up. I don't negate anyones religious choice, I'm merely explaining my own. I was asked a question in another post that is now locked & I think I had a right to respond to it.

I am truely sorry if anyone is offended by my post but I didn't mean it that way. I understand that there are other religions out there & I hope that if anyone questions them they'll be given the opportunity to respond. I would welcome any explaination they might give to further understanding on these boards.

I knew, and stated so in the subject line, that this might be controversial but I didn't intend to offend anyone by explaining my religious beliefs.

Allison (Mamicka to Lawrence 6/17/03)

The Bible--our only foundation;
Christ--our only hope;
Grace--our only gospel;
Faith--our only instrument;
God's glory--our only goal;
the priesthood of all believers--our only ministry
- Horton

[mamicka]

I can't speak for the Kennedys & I don't try to speak for all religious people. I apologize if that's how it came across. I'm speaking for me & others who call themselves evangelical Christians.

Allison (Mamicka to Lawrence 6/17/03)

The Bible--our only foundation;
Christ--our only hope;
Grace--our only gospel;
Faith--our only instrument;
God's glory--our only goal;
the priesthood of all believers--our only ministry
- Horton

[mamicka]

Rashmi, I'm truly sorry that you are offended.

Allison (Mamicka to Lawrence 6/17/03)

The Bible--our only foundation;
Christ--our only hope;
Grace--our only gospel;
Faith--our only instrument;
God's glory--our only goal;
the priesthood of all believers--our only ministry
- Horton

[mamicka]

The fact that I believe something doesn't negate anything you might believe. You have the right to believe whatever you want & I respect that.

Allison (Mamicka to Lawrence 6/17/03)

The Bible--our only foundation;
Christ--our only hope;
Grace--our only gospel;
Faith--our only instrument;
God's glory--our only goal;
the priesthood of all believers--our only ministry
- Horton

[mamicka]

I'm truly sorry that I've offended you.

If you remember, Rachel, you were asking me questions about this in the Nick Berg thread & I didn't get a chance to respond before it was locked. A question was asked & this is the only way I can answer.

Allison (Mamicka to Lawrence 6/17/03)

The Bible--our only foundation;
Christ--our only hope;
Grace--our only gospel;
Faith--our only instrument;
God's glory--our only goal;
the priesthood of all believers--our only ministry
- Horton

[Rachels]

I didn't ask a question. You posted, I responded, but I didn't question. I understand your view. I disagree with it, but I understand it. I don't think the exact same stuff needs to be rehashed again, especially when so many are stating that this thread is feeling offensive.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Marisa6826]

I've been trying to figure out a genteel way of putting this for a while now.

I have to admit that I DO feel like when you put a quote like yours in your signature line, it feels as though you are shoving your Christianty down my throat. Every time you post, whether it's about strollers, diapers, your child's latest achievement, I have to read about how wonderful your God is.

And I find that offensive.

This is a board is about parenting, not religion.

I'm sorry, but that is how I feel.

-m

[ddmarsh]

>That being said, our country was most definitely founded on >Judeo-Christian principles, regardless how serious the founding fathers >were about their faith. One of those principles is the freedom of >religion - God is not interested in people being forced to follow him, >we should all be free to choose him or not choose him.

Ah yes but you are only stating part of that truth. The other part is that the Founding Fathers were quite clear that religion and our government remain separate. The phrase " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" addresses this. You may desire the law/government to acknowledge the President's religion and you may desire that he use that in his decision-making process but that's just simply not the way our system operates.

I can't quite imagine why you've chosen to cause such a scene and write something so terribly offensive to so many. It saddens me on behalf of those who have been offended and actually on your behalf as well. I suspect that you will not be receiving much support from this community as a result of your actions, and that is a loss for you.

There have been a few posters who have come through this community who just don't quite get the unique way in which it operates - they are all now gone. I see you have previous posts - you have availed yourself of support and information previously here and have now decided to so brazenly offend; that is unfortunate. While there have been the occasional "hot" thread as evidenced by this weekend in general no one is so deliberately offensive and hurtful.

Finally I'd like to say that as a matter of principle you clearly are not able to empathize with the beliefs that other hold and respect that they hold their as dearly as you apprantly do. If you were able to empathize you would see that it is for this reason that we as a nation maintain the separation of church and state.

BTW for future reference expressing one's views is "I believe AB&C", you have gone far beyond expressing your views.

[ddmarsh]

>So much for diversity & tolerance

Oh wow, are you serious? You offend and trample all over the beliefs of others and attempt to claim it is a lack of tolerance on their parts?

[rorycam]

I'm not saying I agree with the OP, but why is this deemed so offensive, when just yesterday the consensus was that "offense can only be taken, not given?" Is it different when you are on the receiving end of it instead of the giving? As it was said yesterday, if you don't agree with that, you should be able to seperate yourself from the issues and not find a differing opinion an attack on your person and character. I don't understand why this should be any different than opinions that were stated yesterday in the other threads.

[Rachels]

I may be wrong, but I think it's the rubbing it in more than the opinion itself that people are responding to. All of this has already been talked about pretty specifically, and to bring it up again feels a bit much to some here. And speaking just personally (and not as a mod), I do have a real concern about this degree of proselytizing when there are so many members here of very different religious faiths and backgrounds, and some who have chosen not to have religion as a part of their lives at all. I think it's disrespectful to the community as a whole to insist that there is only one truth which is well-understood by this single poster while the rest of everyone is simply wrong. So I'm offended by that part as well. Can't speak for anyone else, though.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Marisa6826]

Rachel-

You hit the nail on the head.

-m

[rorycam]

"I think it's disrespectful to the community as a whole to insist that there is only one truth which is well-understood by this single poster while the rest of everyone is simply wrong."

I could not agree with you more on that, but I also feel that many things said in the other threads over the past few days have just as strongly and clearly stated there is only one truth which is well-understood to a certain person and everyone else is wrong.

[Rachels]

Maybe, but I haven't seen anyone else state it explicitly as TRUTH. The rest of the posts talked about strong views and opinions, yes, but this goes beyond that.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[MelissaTC]

I agree...

[wagner36]

You know, I would feel entirely different about the OP's post (I certainly wouldn't agree, but my skin wouldn't crawl off my body) if the signature line said "My" or "My family's" or "My Church's" or basically ANYTHING that made me feel like it wasn't something that applied to me. I think that Allison has said over and over again that religon is a choice that she respects, etc., but that just isn't coming across to me when I read the signature line. To me, none of those statements in the signature line are true at all, and since the religious use of the word "our" tends to connote all of humanity, or the world, or whatever, it seriously rubs me the wrong way.

Honestly, though, I think that the same concept would apply to anything: If you saw:
"Hanna Andersson - the ONLY choice"
"Spanking - the ONLY discipline option"
"Disposables - the WAY to go"

in my signature line, don't you think I'd have hell to pay too???


ETA: I'm really not trying to make light of the seriousness of the arguments or beliefs here. I've stayed out of this thus far (due to extreme liberalism and no religious belief whatsoever), but I really feel that some of this isn't about what was said, but the way that it was said...

[jasabo]

I have to agree with this - While I don't agree with the original poster, I read a lot this weekend about people "chosing" to be offended. I would say this applies here as well. Likewise, I don't understand how someone is forcing their religious views on us in a bulletin board post or a signature line...I mean, how is that possible? Just don't read it.

Lisa

[memedee]

Well said.ITA

[momathome]

You mean Hanna Andersson isn't the only choice???
;) ;) ;)
-Lauren

[jojo2324]

While this certainly doesn't rub me the right way, it is absolutely Allison's right to have her signature line as such. If a signature line incited hatred, or called out a specific person in a negative way, that I would not tolerate. I don't like seeing it, but like others have said, offense can only be taken. I remember calling some people, and they answered the phone a certain way. I was taken aback, but I certainly didn't say, "You can't say that! I don't agree with or follow that!"

As for the edited part, well...I just don't know what to say or think about that.

But I do think Allison has the right to have her signature line, even if others are uncomfortable with it. It is, after all, freedom of speech.

[jd11365]

Absolutely...ITA!

Jamie
Mommy to Kayla
5-1-03

[wagner36]

Joanne,
I agree. I don't think she should change her signature line or be required to do so in anyway. I hope I didn't insinuate that. I just think that, although she's stated that she thinks religon is a choice, that message is (IMO, understandably) hard to get through to my brain when I see the signature line along with it. I think it riles people up even more than the words of the post would by itself. It isn't a censorship issue whatsoever. I'm just pointing out that any post (or signature, in this case) which expresses absolutisms is bound to be more controversial than one that doesn't.

[pritchettzoo]

I found your original post offensive as well. Your statements boil down to the fact that you wouldn't want several of our beloved members' children to become say President of the United States because they might be Jewish or Muslim or what have you. That, to me, is bigotry.

You do have the right to your opinions. None of us have to approve of them or validate them. Similarly, I have the right to believe that judging a person based on his or her religious preference is not only illegal but immoral as well.

Anna
Mama to Gracie (9/16/03)

[candybomiller]

Late night ramblings....

I think you can judge someone based on their religious preference legally, you just can't discriminate. Unfortunately, judging isn't covered under any laws (yet, at least). As far as the morality of it, well that's a whole nother story.

[tippy]

The Bible--YOUR only foundation;
Christ--YOUR only hope;
Grace--YOUR only gospel;
Faith--YOUR only instrument;
God's glory--YOUR only goal;
the priesthood of all believers--YOUR only ministry
-Ingrassia

I tried posting this last night but the topic was locked. For some reason this also really gets me. Especially "The priesthood of all believers". I am a believer, I believe in God but not your God. I don't want you to try and make me one of the "priesthood". Especially not on these boards.