WWYD? Spanking Grandparents

[jakobsmommie]

Just curious what everyone else thinks, as this is still bothering me.

Yesterday, we went to my FIL house for the 4th and it was a great time with lots of family.

There are 4 boys around the age of 3 and we also have 2 newborn girls as well. The boys are a bit of a handful to say the least.

I've always been raised, and believe that spanking doesn't really promote anything other than fear. My parents (who live in CA) have taught me that if I do spank, that it should only be a mild tap on the bottom to bruise his ego, and should be used sparingly.

My DH and his family (Who live in MI)are firm spankers. My SIL went so far as to use a wooden spoon on her 2 boys. I am trying to break this way of thinking with my DH and have gained some ground, as he is now COUNTING DS to 3 and then timing him out. Which seems to be working.

Yesterday, "Papa" as DS calls him, was downstairs trying to break an argument up between two of the boys. I was upstairs nursing my newborn. The next thing you know, I hear **whack** and then, you do NOT hit me. This was followed by my son SCREAMING with tears coming down his face and running up to me. It took him a minute to catch his breath before he could tell me "Papa hit me!" and then continued to scream.

I later asked DH if "Papa" had hit him hard. He said, he had hit him pretty hard.

I'm torn. I live in MI with his side of the family and I think I am the ONLY one who believes that teaching someone not to hit, by hitting them, pretty much confuses the child and reinforces the behaviour.

I am still bothered that Papa would HIT him the way that he did, but I'm sure when my DS hit Papa in front of everyone, that really lit his flame and he responded the only way he knew how.

I want to say something, but am afraid to as I don't want to create a negative vibe between the family.

I'm sure he thinks that we spank Jakob b/c my DH talks as if he spanks DS all the time, which I'm sure is only to gain approval from Papa.

WWYD? Should I say something? Should I let it pass and if it happens again say something?

It's so hard being the only one in the family with beliefs that are different from everyone else.

[jk3]

Wow this is a tough one especially with your DH trying to get approval. Personally I would freak out if anyone hit my child but I don't know how I would handle this situation. Usually I try to have my DH deal with his family when things come up with them. How often do you see them? Are you children ever alone with the inlaws? I think if you answer yes to both of those questions this issue has to be discussed. You might just say that although they think it's different or strange you do not hit your children + you are uncomfortable with anyone else doing so. You might also suggest some ways that they can react to the kids if they're doing things they shouldn't be doing. Or you can ask you ILs if they can leave the disciplining up to you and your DH.

I know how tough it can be to have different beliefs than the inlaws.

Jenn
DS 6/03

[Momof3Labs]

Oh, wow, this is tough, especially since your DH isn't being honest with his father about how you are choosing to raise your son. It really isn't Papa's fault, IMO, as it sounds like he was being consistent with what your DH has told him (plus, he did it in front of your DH who didn't say anything?? why didn't your DH step in and break up the situation himself?). But that doesn't make what your FIL did okay. Personally, I'd be all over DH for this one. He needs to be honest with his father about how you are raising your child - and let him know that your decisions aren't up for debate or negotiation.

[flagger]

>Just curious what everyone else thinks, as this is still
>bothering me.

I am sure you are wanting some answers, but it doesn't matter what everyone else things. It only matters what YOU think.

>I am still bothered that Papa would HIT him the way that he
>did, but I'm sure when my DS hit Papa in front of everyone,
>that really lit his flame and he responded the only way he
>knew how.
>
>I want to say something, but am afraid to as I don't want to
>create a negative vibe between the family.

>WWYD? Should I say something? Should I let it pass and if
>it happens again say something?

If it bothers you this much to post on a message board about it, then for cripes sake say something. I think people would be better off if they got what was eating at them off their chest with the person(s) they have an issue with than spending time talking about it on a message board. Especially if you live in the same area as that side of the family and you will be seeing them again and again, you should just buck up and not worry about "creating a negative vibe" and just speak your mind.

[kristine_elen]

That story literally makes me sick to my stomach. I completely agree with you that spanking is wrong, and you should make it clear as day to your in-laws that your children are not to be spanked or hit under any circumstances. Even if you're in the minority in your family, most experts agree that spanking is not the way to go. These are your children and you have every right, and every responsibility, to make sure they are raised in the way you think is best. Good luck to you!
Here's something from the American Academy of Pediatrics, if you need back up.
http://www.aap.org/advocacy/childhealthmonth/spank.htm

[sntm]

I definitely think you should say something to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Something like, "Papa, actually, we don't do any spanking, hitting, or tapping of Jakob as discipline, and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't either. If you'd like, I can describe what we do use."
Don't make it a judgmental thing and you should avoid raising his defenses. Just say it matter-of-factly. If he reacts negatively, then you can explain that this is just the way you do things in your family, or if you think it would be appropriate, you can explain why. I have a list of published medical literature opposing spanking, so email me if you want it and I will forward it to you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03

[lukkykatt]

Well, I was hit with a wooden spoon on ocassion as a child, so I will start off by saying that being hit as a child does not give you a license to spank. IMHO, your DH needs to have a conversation with his parents. He doesn't even have to go into anything detailed - he could just leave it at the fact that he would appreciate it if his parents let you discipline your children if you are in the house.

Probably the better thing would be to have a totally honest conversation with them that both of you are trying to not use spanking in your house. But that could be hard, depending on his relationship with them. It also depends on whether or not you think your children will ever be alone with his parents.

Good luck. And I think it's great that you and your husband are trying to make alternative choices to spanking.

[Rachels]

I would absolutely say something, and no WAY would I leave my child with an adult who would hit. This isn't simply about beliefs. Every study that has ever been done has shown spanking to be harmful for children. Little ones hit because they haven't yet learned other ways to express their anger and frustration. It's not okay, but it is a chance to help them learn an alternative. For an adult to hit is outrageous. I can't even imagine striking someone else's child, for any reason. Your DH needs to be clear about what you do and do not do, and to make certain that nobody will hit your child, period.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/character/2/character39.gif

"We have a secret in our culture...it's not that birth is painful, it's that women are strong!!" - Laura Stavoe Harm

[sweetbasil]

Having both come from families that spanked, DH and I had serious talks about it before we started a family, and here's what we did; when I was quite pg w/DS#1, we sat down with our parents and our sisters and let them know that we didn't want anyone physically disciplining our kids.

I still have memories of being spanked as a child by a grandparent, and in an effort to see where she was coming from, have still never understood why she chose that course of action. We don't want the boys plagued with such feelings either....

So no grandparent, aunt, or uncle has ever physically disciplined the boys, and we don't expect they ever will. Sitting down like that is pretty uncomfortable, but it's much easier than correcting another adult's behavior after the fact---- I'd sit down with DH and talk to his parents. It's important, IMHO, for them to all see a united front- especially on an issue this serious.

HTH,

[Marisa6826]

I think your DH needs to suck it up and tell his father that you don't spank.

He's got a family of his own and is trying to gain approval from his father on how he raises his kids?

YOUR children's wellbeing should come before your DH's comfort level as a grown man seeking approval from HIS Daddy.

Sorry, that really gets my goat.

-m

[egoldber]

This really is an awkward situation for you. If I were you, and since you are around your ILs all the time, I think you need to do some preemptive work around the issue of discipline. But first you need to talk to DH and make sure you and he present a united front.

I think you hit the nail right on the head though when you said that his grandfather responded the only way he knew how. Spanking is generally used as a punishment when a parent doesn't know what else to do. Maybe explaining your methods to his grandparents will help them to know what to do when you or DH are not around to help.

Good luck.

[jakobsmommie]

I simply wanted to get some feedback from others.

I don't want to make a big deal out of something that may not be.

He is my first-born child and since my contact with my own family is limited, I needed some advice.

Thank you for yours.

[jakobsmommie]

I would LOVE some medical literature!

Thank you SO MUCH for offering!

[Melanie]

"WWYD? Should I say something? Should I let it pass and if it happens again say something? "

It might be best for your husband to be the one to talk to them, since it's HIS family, but if he doesn't really see the need, then I don't know.

Anyway, I would never ever ever allow my child to be alone with them again unless they consented that what they did was wrong (meaning, spanking your child when you do not believe in it). You might want to tell them just how you think it made your son feel, appeal to their sense of empathy, if they have one.

So sorry your little one was treated like that by someome he trusted. =(

[jakobsmommie]

Thank you all so much for your thoughts.

It is truly difficult being the only person that has more progressive ways of thinking and raising kids. Sometimes I feel so alone and have to stand firm for my own beliefs.

I appreciate all of your thoughts. They have helped me more than you can imagine!

I think I will bring it up in a way that is non-confrontational, yet gets the point across.

I hope it works.

Say a prayer for me! :-)

BTW - I did not intend to offend anyone who spanks or has been spanked as a child. I just wanted someone elses opinions on this.
How anyone chooses to raise their child is their own decision, and I didn't mean to impose upon anyone.

Thanks again,

[himom]

I was spanked as a child and I do not suffer self-esteem problems, and I also did not learn to hit, etc or all the other crap some studies supposedly back up. I was the type of child that was hurt far more by a scolding than a spanking anyway. (My brother was exactly the opposite -- you could time out, scold, and discipline him till the cows came home and he wouldn't care. But if you spanked him he finally got the point. But I digress.)

Anyway, all this to say we were never, ever afraid of my parents. I was afraid of getting punished, but that applied to getting grounded or having no TV as much as it applied to getting spanked.

We've decided to spank on occasions when there is direct disobedience and obvious defiance, and even that will be tempered with a waiting period, discussion of wrongdoing, etc.

Having said that, however, NOBODY else is allowed to spank my kids unless I have given them permission and direction to do so. And I will have explained our policy carefully and made sure the person understands it. (No one falls into this category yet, and I don't know if anyone ever will.)

You as the parent are allowed, even obliged, to establish your own system of discipline and stick to it. Anyone else in contact with your kids needs to know their own boundaries, and if you don't want them spanking, you'd better tell them ASAP!! You're the mommy, you're in charge! Don't feel bad about telling them how you feel.

Of course, I also think you'd better clear this up with your DH first, since if the two of you are opposed you're only going to send a confusing message to everyone, including your kids.

HTH!

Jodi
Edited because I left out an entire phrase. ???

[jakobsmommie]

You know it's funny b/c I too was spanked as a child but on a RARE occasion. Like I said before, it was more of an ego bruiser than anything.

The funny thing is, I can remember the spanking, but I can't remember the lesson behind it.

I agree with you, each child is different. My DS is VERY defiant. He pushes his boundaries ALL the time.

I have been meeting with a social worker from the hospital for PPD after the birth of my DD and she has given us a video, called...
"1,2,3 MAGIC" It has been incredibly helpful and we are only 30 minutes into the video. It's a 2 hr. tape.

[himom]

Everybody keeps mentioning 123 Magic and it sounds like it's really great. I keep meaning to go and get it but Mommy-brain continuously plays a role in blanking our the intention anytime I'm near a bookstore.

I do want to establish a system of discipline outside of spanking, since I really want to do it. How could anyone ENJOY hurting their child and making them cry? I'm just not going to rule it out. If I really feel like it's the best thing for him in the long-term then I WILL do it.

Jodi
Mommy to Joshua, born February 2003

[kijip]

Discipline should be dished out by the parents when they are around and any discipline dished out when they are not around should be sanctioned by them. I would tell your husband's family to kindly let you handle your son at family gatherings. The ideal time to step in was missed by your husband. Now that the moment has passed just tell them that in the future, leave it to you or your husband. I would state neutrally that you do not spank your son. Be firm. But don't try to educate them on the ills of spanking. While I agree with you, I think that any studies you cite will just be taken as an attack on how they raised their children. No need to start a war. Also don't leave your children with them alone unless they agree not to use spanking on them.

[ddmarsh]

I can't say enough about 123 Magic. It is so easy to understand and implement and it is very effective. DH and I saw the author speak once and he made you feel like the most wonderful parent :).

[egoldber]

I also can't say enough about 123 Magic. I think it works better for slightly older children (the book says it is for kids 2-12), but it was a lifesaver for me when DD suddenly went into a behavioral tailspin at around 2 1/2. Within a couple weeks of implementing the principles, 90% of our issues were resolved. And it is so simple.

HTH,

[doubleL]

> Every study that has ever been done has shown
>spanking to be harmful for children.

This statement simply is not true. While I hesitate to post this because I don't want to look like a huge spanking advocate, I will because categorical statements about research findings irritate me.

Dr. Diane Baumrind is a prominent researcher in the field of parenting who originally defined the parenting styles (authoritarian, authoritative, and permissive) that are loosely thrown around in some posts on this board. She has done longitudinal research on parenting styles and found that spanking in the context of a loving, authoritative parent does not harm children.

Excerpt...

"University of California, Berkley, psychologists Diana Baumrind, PhD, and Elizabeth Owens, PhD, ... presented findings at APA's 2001 Annual Convention showing that occasional mild spanking does not harm a child's social and emotional development."

I don't advocate spanking," says Baumrind, "but a blanket injunction against its use isn't warranted by the evidence. It is reliance on physical punishment, not whether or not it's used at all, that is associated with harm to the child."

She added that when parents are loving and firm, and communicate well with a child, "the child is exceptionally competent and well-adjusted, whether or not their parents spanked them as preschoolers."

http://www.apa.org/monitor/dec01/spanking.html


An article by Baumrind give's a much clearer picture of her 30+ years of research on the topic of parenting and discipline and puts it in historical context as well. In it she states, "Arbitrary reliance on aversive discipline, rather than its judicious use, is the critical factor resulting in harm to children or failure to obtain their compliance."

Family Relations, 1996, 45, 405-414.


Lou
~David 5.01
~Elisabeth 6.03

[pritchettzoo]

There are No Spanking advocacy t-shirts. I don't know if it would fly, but you'd certainly get your point across... ;)
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/user_files/8647.jpg
They're available here (no affiliation with me): http://www.jacksmagicbeanstalk.com/store/

I do not believe that spanking is an effective means of discipline, but even if I did, I would be HOT HOT HOT that someone else did it without my permission. I think you could also have DH say, "Thank you, but if he needs disciplining, please bring him to us and we will take care of it." You don't even have to get into the spanking/no-spanking debate.

Anna

[doubleL]

This is obviously stressing you out. I would encourage you to look at this incident in the big scheme of things. Are you still going to be bothered by this in a year, 5 years, 10 years? In 5 years, will you be more likely to remember this incident (and similar ones) or the 1001 other moments when Papa was loving, responsive, and had age-appropriate expectations for your son? Is a confrontation likely to evoke positive change? If not, what ramifications are there and is it worth it anyway? Only you can answer these questions. Good luck... it certainly is a tough and unenviable situation.

Lou
~David 5.01
~Elisabeth 6.03

[Judegirl]

I'm with Lori and Marisa on this one. Where on earth was your DH?? (Figuratively, I mean.) If he's not really on board with you about this decision, it seems to me that that's a much bigger deal than this particular incident. And if he is, then he needs to be your partner and step up to the plate and talk to his father.

That being said, if he will not do so, or if the two of you are not on the same page, then I think you ought to talk to your FIL. Of course, if your dh isn't backing you up, I'm not sure how much good it will do in terms of your FIL's behavior - but being true to your perspective on discipline is important, and at least moving forward, the family will know where you stand.

Good luck,
Jude

[jakobsmommie]

You're right. I have to definately take a step back and look at the big picture. Thank you so much for reminding me. I have a way of forgetting that sometimes when it involves me directly.

I think it's a big deal especially to me because of a few things.

1. DH and I disagree on spanking, primarily b/c of how DH was raised vs. my own beliefs and the way I was raised. As I mentioned earlier, sitting and watching 123 Magic together was the turning point as far as breaking into DH psyche about spanking and not spanking and what works and what doesn't. We are still working on it.

2. Papa treats DS differently than he does my SIL boys. This is a well known family fact. Everyone has commented on it, even to him, (of course DH and I haven't).
When I spoke to SIL yesterday, she said she didn't think Papa had EVER spanked her kids. I thought he HAD to have come across that road at one point since he babysits her kids frequently, (In fact they just spent the night twice with Papa only). Did I mention he has NEVER offered to watch our DS.

I work in an environment where I see "shaken babies" all the time. I see the effects it has on them. I am IN NO WAY SAYING that spanking a child will cause this. It just makes me ill that violence has been used on a child. I can see where parents can snap. We've all been pushed to our limits at times. I PERSONALLY feel, that if you make it important enough to NOT use violence or PHYSICAL punishment, you will seek out other ways to control/discipline your kids. I think if more under-educated parents were taught alternative solutions, that maybe we might find less abused children. Did I mention that when I was in the hospital, they had each parent watch a video on why you shouldn't spank your kids? I think that is a step in the right direction.

Just to make it clear -
I am not calling people on this board under-educated, (quite the opposite).
I am NOT saying that if you spank, you shake your babies.
GEESH - I didn't realize that I would need to write disclaimers when I originally posted this!

Hope I didn't offend anyone - I just wanted to clear up a few questions that have been asked.

[Imperia]

I would absolutley say something. In my opinion you do NOT discpline someone else's child in a way that they do not approve of, period, ever.

I personally do not believe in hitting children because my mother unofrtunatly used to hit us as children and it did nothing except promote fear and more violence (my brothers used to love to hit each other and me!) Using an object to hit a child (as you stated was done by y our PIL) is illegal and considered child abuse. You may not hit a child with an object and you may not leave a mark. I don't think it's useful in any way, but I digress...

Even if it does cause tension in the family I think you owe it your child if you and DH truly are against it. It is about respecting your morals and beliefs, which I think is important!

It should probably your DH who does the talking (which may be scary for him) because it is his family. He will need to explain that you two have decided you do not feel comfortable with spanking (give reasons if you wish, but he would have to be careful not to make Papa feel as though he was a bad parent for doing so in the past) and you would prefer that he did not physically discpline your children.

I hope everything turns out well

Imperia

[Rachels]

Okay, true. You're right. My master's thesis was on childhood aggression, which is strongly correlated with authoritarian parenting, and what I was remembering was under that blanket. Thanks for the correction.

The thing is, I think that a fair number of parents who spank are probably more authoritarian than authoritative, and for that set, spanking has some pretty dire consequences. I can't see it being worth it, ever. We are legally prohibited from striking other adults; we call that violence. For an adult to hit a child is violence, too. There are better alternatives.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/character/2/character39.gif

"We have a secret in our culture...it's not that birth is painful, it's that women are strong!!" - Laura Stavoe Harm

[sntm]

Sandra,
I deleted my list, but I have an AAP article that has a fairly complete bibliography (no abstracts though.) Email me and I will forward it to you.
Shannon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03

[egoldber]

I am also familiar with some of the literature in this area, although my info is a bit our of date (as a grad student, I was funded through a research grant doing a longitudinal study of a large group of families, and specifically looking at aspects of the family dynamic that produced anti-social behavior in children).

It is certainly true that the literature indicates that children who were spanked occasionally do not necessarily have negative outcomes as long as the family environment was otherwise loving and nurturing. However, there is no literature that I have seen that says that children who are spanked are better behaved than those who are not. In general, quite the opposite it true. And this is because GENERALLY although certainly not absolutely, families that spank also tend to exhibit other family dynamics that lead to antisocial behavior in older children. Spanking tends to go with other parenting practices that tend to lead to more negative outcomes for kids.

I will say that I was spanked as a child, although not nearly as much as my brother and sisters. And I can say with certainty that when my father spanked one of us (he was the disciplinarian), it was ALWAYS when he was angry and out of control. The threat of physical punishment was just part of the symdrome of anger and fear that permeated my house growing up.

And I know that on the occasions when I have felt myself tempted to use physical discipline with DD, I know that is has always been at a times when I am angry and frustrated. Just recognizing that about myself has kept me from ever using physical discipline.

[mamicka]

Not to make light of an issue which clearly bothers you, with good reason, but I read the subject of this thread & thought:

"Why would anyone spank their grandparents?" Can you say sleep-deprivation?

Anyway, I'll echo what others have said. If you don't believe in spanking, you (you & DH) need to make this clear to the grandparents.

When I imagine this happening to me, though, I think I would take a different approach, which I don't necessarily recommend. I would probably have marched right back to my DH & his father & make it perfectly clear, to both of them, that my children were not to be spanked. I would probably also have added that if my FIL needed to spank somebody, it should have been my DH, for sitting there while this was going-on & not stepping in. Again, I don't recommend this approach for several reasons.

Merging families with different philosophies is difficult. Wishing you Good luck!

[llcoddington]

I haven't read the other posts, but perhaps your DH could say something? I'm forever asking my DH to say things to his parents, so I understand if that is easier said than done! I don't think grandparents or anyone else should discipline another person's child in this manner unless given explicit permission from the parents.

Lana
mommy to Lauren 12/5/03

[jakobsmommie]

That IS funny!
I can relate to sleep deprivation! DD is 3 months old, I REALLY can relate!

[jakobsmommie]

Okay I HAD to post this!
Yesterday DH brought up the whole spanking incident.
I told him how much it has been bothering me.

DH said him and his Dad had a big conversation about it and I think it has been resolved, although DH said, it could happen again.

He didn't want to get into to much. I could tell it bothered him to talk about it. Basically in a nut shell, He told Papa that we were not spanking DS and if we weren't spanking him, then NOONE was going to spank him. (I AM SO PROUD OF DH!)
He did say that he could see where Papa might do it again, simply because he doesn't know any better. Maybe the better way to say that, is that he can't control his anger to stop himself from spanking. He's one that feels that if he grew up spanked and he's still alive, then it MUST be okay. My FIL isn't one to read articles or self help anything. He's one of those people that believe they don't need to read a book to know how to raise their kids. UGH, I hate the ignorant type. So glad my family isn't like that.
ANYWAY, coming from DH, who I have had to BREAK the chain in the families belief on spanking. I am SO SUPER STINKING PROUD of him!!!

I hadn't even told him to say anything yet!

[chrissyhowie]

I'm so glad that your DH stepped up to the plate on this issue. It can be so difficult sometimes to bring these types of things up with family members, so I'm proud of your DH too!!

Times like this make us remember why we married the guy in the first place ;).

[egoldber]

That is great!!!!! What a HUGE step for your DH! The first step in breaking the cycle is always the hardest. You must be SO proud. Wow. Sometimes they REALLY do get it! :)

[doubleL]

Awesome news!!! I think it's amazing that DH initiated this on his own. I am sooooooo happy for you! :)

Lou
~David 5.01
~Elisabeth 6.03

[sntm]

Terrific! Give your DH a big hug for that one -- I'm sure it wasn't easy. But think how much easier it will be for your kids when they have kids...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03

[starrynight]

I would have been very po'd. My mom once spanked Alex in public for something, and she hit him hard. I don't spank, but if I was the spanking type I certainly don't do it in public! I was fuming, I walked over to her told her very firmly "Do not spank my son ever again and especially not in public", I picked up my kid and walked away from her.

She knew how mad I was and she apologized both to him and me and she never did it again. The worst part of it all was he didn't really do anything wrong.

It is hard being the only one in the family with certain beliefs, I know because I am the only non-spanking co-sleeper on both sides so I really hear it LOL. I would try and have a calm talk about that you choose to disipline another way and you would appreciate from now on if your son is not spanked.

[deborah_r]

>Not to make light of an issue which clearly bothers you, with
>good reason, but I read the subject of this thread &
>thought:
>
>"Why would anyone spank their grandparents?" Can you say
>sleep-deprivation?
>


This cracked me up!!! I can see where it can be read that way.

[Melanie]

yay for your hubby!!!!!!!!

[jakobsmommie]

Go Jackie!

I admire people who stick to their beliefs, even when it sometimes feels like the world is against you!

Thanks so much for your reply!

[starrynight]

It's taken some time, I wasn't so bold when I first had ds. I would just let things go but after 3 kids and hearing it for the past few years I don't care anymore if I tell someone off or upset someone in the family with my beliefs. They don't have to raise my kids, ya know?

And I just read your other post that your dh had a talk with his dad, good for him!! :D