Problems with airlines being inconsistent on car seat policies?

[COElizabeth]

I could easily post a version in the bitching forum, but after experiencing this problem one too many times, I would really like to get to the bottom of it!

We just got back from visiting family out-of-state. On the outbound flight, I specifically asked the flight attendant how she wanted me to install James' car seat, rear-facing or forward-facing. I told her he is rear-facing in the car. She said she would check her manual, and she came back and told me it was fine to put it rear-facing.

On our return flight yesterday (on the same airline, with the same type of aircraft), I installed the seat the same way. One flight attendant definitely saw me do it and didn't say anything about the position (he saw the seat installed and jokingly asked where the passenger was, so I know he saw it). When I put James in the seat, though, another flight attendant walked by and told me it must be FF. I told her the flight attendant on the previous flight had said it was fine and that he is RF in the car, and she said the flight attendant should not have told me that and made me turn the seat. She said it could not be FF because the seat in front could not recline with the car seat RF.

First of all, I don't see how the inability to recline could be a safety problem, since the passenger seats have to be upright for takeoff and landing anyway (when everything is supposed to be most secure). Second, if that is the concern, then why did she allow the infant in another row to stay in his infant seat (which of course was RF - the only way it can go)? Finally, why is there no consistency on this? I have had so many flight attendants give me conflicting instructions!

I found the following on the FAA website, and it "suggests" that children under 20 pounds be in RF seats and children 20-40 be in FF seats as opposed to using just the belts.

http://www.faa.gov/passengers/childsafetyseats.cfm

This documents seems out of date, since many car seats are designed to allow RF up to 30 or 33 pounds. I'd prefer him to be RF as long as possible, not just because it's generally considered safer, but also because he can't kick the seat ahead of him. When he was FF yesterday, his legs were right up against the seat ahead, and suffice it to say that the flight was miserable for me, him, and the woman in the seat in front of him. I know the kicking is something I have to solve at some point anyway, but meanwhile I am curious if there is any more definitive rule about RF or FF or whether I am the only one who is constantly getting conflicting instructions!

Elizabeth, Mom to James, 9-20-02
EDD #2, 10-30-04

[deborah_r]

I had the same problem. I did it rear-facing on the first leg of my trip, and the flight attendant seemed surprised, but didn't say I couldn't. She expressed concern about the person in front of him not being able to recline, but she was able to recline it fine. But it did change the angle I had his seat at, which annoyed me.

On the second leg, I started doing it rear-facing and some FA said it had to be forward facing. With the memory of how I didn't like when the person reclined and changed the angle of his seat, I just gave in and said whatever. But then the seatbelt got stuck that way. We ended up having to deboard that plane before takeoff and get on another plane, and I could hardly get the seat out. Then I had to go through that all again when we finally got on the replacement plane.

On the two legs of the return flight, I think I did forward facing, although I did try to tell the very helpful FAs that it would work better rear-facing, because the seatbelt wouldn't get stuck.

So yes, I found that inconsistency to be annoying too, and would love to get an absolute answer before traveling again, with a printed copy to show them if they argue with me!

[ShayleighCarsensMom]

I think that they told you to turn it, not for safety reasons, but for the comfort of the other passenger being able to recline their seat...crazy!

[Raidra]

I'm flying with Colwyn for the first time on Wednesday, so I'm curious to see what happens. He's only 8 months and about 17 lbs, so he definitely should be RF. I printed out a copy of Delta's policy for child restraints that says use must be in accordance with the car seat manual, and I printed out the page from the FAA that you mentioned.

Now if I could just find my car seat manual, I'll be all set. ;)

[tippy]

I am flying to Orlando with just me and ds who is 18 mo and uses a Marathon convertable seat forward facing. I am wondering if I wanted to install it rear facing on the flight (flying Jet Blue) as I think it would be easier for both of us to be able to look at each other etc...Does anyone have experience using a Marathon on a plane? I am dreading flying alone with ds and anything to make the process go more smoothly would be a great help. Do you know if a seatbelt extender is needed? How do you install the belt anyway (on the marathon the shoulder harness goes through the clips in the back of the seat). Do you just put it through on the bottom somehow? (I guess I'll check my manuel and see what's listed). Thanks for any advise.

[kristine_elen]

Interesting. It might be a good idea before your next flight to contact the airline and ask them to send you something in writing explaining their policy on this. Explain the various problems you've had. Thanks for the heads up on this.

[stillplayswithbarbies]

The policy says that the seat must be used in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

I don't ask the flight attendent how to install my seat, I just do it. If they question it, I show them the instruction book that says "rear facing up to X pounds". I've only been questioned once and I told her that the manual says I have to do it this way and she didn't ask to see it.

the fact that the seat in front can't recline means nothing to me.

The Marathon is easy to install rear facing in planes. I don't usually need a seat belt extension. To make it easier, I don't lift the cover of the seat, I just thread the seat belt right over it.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[Karenn]

My attitude was kind of like Karen's. I've always just installed the seat rear facing, and told the flight attendent that it needed to be that way, and they didn't argue with me. Honestly, I just assumed that they didn't really know anything in regard to carseats, and many of them acted like they didn't, so I took charge :)

I can't imagine the not being able to recline the seat being a "safety issue"- the last row of seats in the plane often don't recline anyway because they're so squished in there!

[COElizabeth]

Well, I have tried just installing the seat without asking, and as I said, i have several times been asked to move it in one direction or the other, even when I explained the positioning in the car. I may be a wimp, but I also know the law requires me to do what the flight attendant says if I want to take that flight.

If an attendant looked at my manual, he or she would see that James can technically be FF since he is over 20 pounds and over 1 year old, and the FAA policy says 20-40 pounds is suggested to be FF, so I really don't think I would have much room for argument.

Frankly, I really don't care which way he faces that much now, because I see the primary purpose as containment in the event of turbulence as opposed to a crash. But it irritates me that I am always told different things. And I also think that kids under 2 should be in the bulkhead, because feet jammed up against the seat in front make for a pretty miserable flight for all involved. GRRR!!!!!!

Elizabeth, Mom to James, 9-20-02
EDD #2, 10-30-04

[peanut4us]

Sorry you had contradictory FAs... that's no fun. This is a timley post because Scott is going to fly with Sara alone soon, and I will definately remember to get a statement from Delta about their policy and have scott take the car seat manual... I don't want them giving him a hard time. And she's not even 20 pounds yet, but she looks like a toddler (which she is, just extra small and cute!) so they might give him a hard time.

And you know what... as far as the seat in front not being able to recline, I DON'T CARE... no one cares about me when I can't put my arms down or sit with my shoulders against the seat because I'm squished in between two "persons of size". Yes, that did actually happen once. DIfferent rant, sorry.

But geez, could the airlines please get this together already???

[papal]

Karen, please could you explain how you threaded the seatbelt over the seat.. i did not quite understand.. thanks in advance!
I ask because we found it really hard to install the RA rear-facing.. we did not use a seat-belt extended.. my dh said it would not have made a difference because the problem was that there was too much slack in the belt.. needless to say, the flight attendants were clueless in helping with the installation.

[Dcclerk]

I actually think flying forward facing would be easier for you. JetBlue has Directv individually for each person, so your DS would actually have a show to watch for most of the way, in addition to having his toys, etc. I'm not sure if they have cartoons available, but I think they probably have something that is children-oriented. Love JetBlue.

[hez]

Or have you had trouble with them all? It might be good to know where efforts should be focused on education :)

We flew ATA on vacation a couple weeks ago, and had no problem with either flight. We got on early, installed the seat RF and no one ever questioned it. We also took copies of literature explaining RF vs. FF so we could educate the FA's if necessary, but there was no need.

[Sarah1]

I think the flight attendants are fairly clueless about this (we've flown a bunch of times w/DD). One flight attendant once asked me, "Is your seat FAA certified?" Uh, no, DUH, I hauled a seat all the way here that wasn't (I'm probably being a little harsh :P But like Karen said, usually, if you just act like you know what you're doing, they leave you alone.

The first time we flew w/Audrey in her big carseat (we actually use a Sit 'n Stroll since we fly a fair amount), she was 8 months old, and it was such a pain in the butt to squeeze in the seat RF, that I just let her go FF. I'm probably more laid back than most, but it seemed safe enough to me and more comfortable for her legs.

[muskiesusan]

I have never had the problem with RF or FF, but last summer we had a run in with the airlines on whether we could use our seat or not. We were seated behind the emergency row, and on the outbound flight, I installed the seat no problem. On the return flight, we had the same seats and were told we needed to check our car seat as they are not allowed in, before or after the emergency row. I told them we had the same seats on the previous flight, but they said we shouldn't have been allowed to sit there and, if we wanted, we could try and ask others to switch seats with us. Um, no, you can find someone to switch with us. My son's ticket said "infant" on it, so they shouldn't have assigned us those seats as we would obviously using a carseat! Some nice people heard our problem and switched with us, but the FA was very rude and put out by the whole thing.

Susan
Mom to Nick 10/01/01
& Alex 04/27/04

[Karenn]

Oh, I doubt you're a wimp! I suspect I may have just been lucky.(Or else I really had a "don't mess with me" look on my face and they left me alone. I'm generally pretty laid back and not one for conflict, but I can get a little stressed when I'm flying with Colin ;) )

It would be so nice if they could just get their policies straight. I don't know about your seat, but it takes a bit of tinkering to switch mine from forward facing to rear facing and it would be a real pain to have to switch it on a flight attendant's whim!

[deborah_r]

I think I did see something about being at least 2 rows behind the emergency rows, but I'm not sure.

To answer one of the previous posters regarding which airlines I've had problems with, it was Delta that I got contradictory information from the FAs.

[tippy]

Thanks for the input! I actually asked the reservation person what their policy was for convertable seats being forward or rear facing and after putting me on hold and asking "someone who would know" they came back and said they didn't have a policy! :o Since the flight is only 2 1/2 hours I guess I'll install the seat forward facing. I just hope I don't have a hard time getting the seat in since I will be with ds alone. For the poster who said to just thread the seatbelt over the seat, could you explain in a bit more detail how you do that? Also, was that rear or forward facing. Thanks!

[tippy]

What carseat were you using? I am flying with a marathon alone with my dh and dread the idea of anything like that happening. Figuring I will end up with him forward facing to you have any suggestions on installation?

[tippy]

Karen,

Thanks for the feedback. Have you tried installing the seat forward facing (which I will probably end up doing)? Is it just as easy as rear facing and would I need an extension? Also, could you explain in a bit more detail what you mean by "just threading the seatbelt right over it"? Thanks so much.

[stillplayswithbarbies]

it was rear facing. There are slots in the seat cover that let the seat belt come through so you don't have to lift up the cover to install it.

You should practice installing your seat forward facing in your car first, it's the same way you would do it on the plane.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[stillplayswithbarbies]

I've never tried to install it forward facing.

On both the Marathon and the Roundabout, you lift up the cover so you can put the seatbelt of the car/airplane under it so it looks nicer. But you don't have to do that. There are slots in the seat cover for the seatbelt to come up and go across the seat on top of the cover. It's much faster that way.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[stillplayswithbarbies]

If the baby has a paid seat, they should have moved you, you shouldn't have to ask people to switch. But she was correct, you can't be in front of , in, or behind an exit row.

I think it is because that is where they have to stow the door? I'm not sure.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[tippy]

Hi Karen,

Thanks again for your response. You are always so generous with your feedback :-) and I appreciate that. I actually have the seat forward facing in my car. What I don't understand is how you would thread a "lap belt" through the openings that the shoulder belt goes through. Are there instructions in the manual? I haven't checked the book yet (it's still under the car seat cover in the car). Thanks again for your help.

[stillplayswithbarbies]

I'm not sure what you mean by the openings that the shoulder belt goes through. Do you mean the shoulder belt of the car? Or the shoulder straps of the car seat itself? My comments about putting the seatbelt over the cover are only for rear facing.

When you install a Marathon or Roundabout rear facing, the car/airplane seatbelt comes up through the slot on one side, across the seat and down through the slot on the other side. Usually you would lift up the car seat cover so that the seatbelt from the car would be hidden underneath it. But you don't have to do that, it's just for looks. So when you are in a hurry on the airplane, you just pull one end of the seatbelt up through one slot, and the other end through the other, and buckle it on top of the cover of the car seat.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[wagner36]

We've been flying a ton lately (DH's sister is very ill - so we've been traveling a lot), and we've only had problems on one Delta flight. We installed our RA RF, and the FA told me that the rule was FF AFTER either 1 year OR 20 pounds, and that since DS is clearly over 20 pounds (rude of her to say, but totally true) he should be FF. I told her calmly but firmly that DS would be flying RF and that the rule was at least 1 year and 20 pounds. She smiled and walked away.

I always board last with Charlie - it is a lot easier for me to manage his squirminess when we board as late as possible, so maybe they just ignore me since I'm always holding everything up!

We keep Charlie RF solely for selfish reasons - it is easier for us to interact when he's facing our direction. My brother, however, who is a safety investigator for a major airline INSISTS that whenever there have been reports filed due to injuries for debris and stuff flying around, that it always hits in the back of the head (and not just because people aren't looking and are thus more likely to be injured - because of some sciencey mumbo-jumbo I won't even try to repeat), so he thinks we should keep Charlie FF. I know that I should listen to my brother, since he's an expert in his field, but it is so much easier to deal with a squirmy toddler when you can look at him in the face!

[tippy]

Ok Karen, I'm a little slow on the uptake here sorry! It's late and I have a bad head cold which I hope is gone by the time I have to fly. I guess your explanation while appreciated probably doesn't really apply to me since I plan on using the car seat forward facing. I am still curious though, is your child "sitting on the buckle" if it goes over the cover of the seat or is it off to the side and they are just on the strap. I was talking about the shoulder belt of the car by the way. You know how it comes from "above" on one side and clips in "below" on the other after being put in those slots with the red clips. I guess the lap belt part goes through the "bottom" and I'm assuming that is where you would thread the airplane belt. I'm not sure if I totally have my car seat installed wrong but I threaded the lap belt part of the belt behind the seat not "through the front of the seat". (does that make sense?). Ok...I hope i'm not driving you crazy with all of this. Maybe I will stop into a car seat safetly inspection station and see if they can show me how I would use the seat on an airplane (I wonder if they do that). Thanks again.

[stillplayswithbarbies]

Teva, if you have your seat installed forward facing then it is totally different from what I am talking about here. The car/airplane seatbelt goes in a totally different place for rear facing.

When I install it this way, she is not sitting on the buckle, but it is between her legs. It ends up just behind the crotch strap of the Marathon.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[stillplayswithbarbies]

That is a very good point! If there is a sudden decceleration, any loose items are going to fly towards the front of the plane.

hmmm, I'm going to think about rear vs forward the next time I fly.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[marinkitty]

We just flew to Lisbon and back with Mia in her Roundabout RF. We didn't have the FF/RF issue (never have, actually - she has always flown RF even if it meant the person in front of her couldn't recline) but every single flight (except the American flight back from London) one of the stewardesses questioned whether having Mia in her carseat for takeoff/landing was safe???? WHAT?

We flew Iberian through Madrid on the way there and both legs there was a huge huddle of flight attendants debating whether Mia should be in her seat or on one of our laps with that belt extender thing around us. I kept assuring them that this was her CAR seat, the safest place to be. Finally the head attendant came by and said it was fine. I thought it was so strange - I mean, they do use car seats in Europe.

We also had people stop us when we were boarding to tell us we couldn't bring the seat on (because of size, I assume). We would say it is for the baby and they still didn't get it. Then we would say she had her own seat and it finally clicked. She is almost 16 months old - I can't imagine trying to fly 8 hours (overnight on the way there) with her in one of our laps, but apparently we were the odd balls.


Holly
Mom to Mia (3.17.03)

[MinnieMouse]

We've flown with Bethany three times in her 3 years...and will be flying again in a few wks. All three previous trips were after her 1st birthday although the first trip she was hovering around 20lbs (+/- 1-2lbs).

The first trip is the only one we had car seat issues with and it was the only one where she was rear facing (Beth has a long torso and out grew both her seats rearfacing by height around her 2nd bday). We flew from Philly to Orlando with a plane change in Charlotte on USAir. The first leg was fine, no one said boo to us. The second one the FA told us flat out that Bethany couldn't rearface "since only infant seats can rear face, not big seats"...UGH. When I explained to her that we were using the seat according to the manufacturer's instructions she switched gears and tried to tell me that we couldn't rear face the seat since it would "inconvenience" the passenger in front of us. I didn't even have to say a word....said passenger piped up and told the FA that he didn't mind at all! :-)

We've never flown Delta w/ Bethany, only USAir that one trip and two trips on AirTran. AirTran must have a HUGE class about car seats for their FAs. We've always run into very knowledgable FA's there. They ALWAYS ask to see the FAA sticker and make sure to remind us that the seat must go next to the window. We'll be flying USAir again in a few weeks from Philly to Nashville....I'll be interested to see how they do now.

FWIW, I always fly with the manufacturer's instructions, since the FAA says that the car seat MUST be used according to the manf inst., as well as printouts of the following web pages...

http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/airplanetravel.aspx

http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/airplaneRF.aspx

The first link is for general info about flying w/ carseats on airplanes...with lots of links to official sites and the second one is a TON of justification about why kids should rearface on airplanes LONGER than they rearface in cars.

Here is a small paragraph from the page about rfing...

"Air travel is proven to be much safer than car travel; however, rear-facing on aircraft is even more important than in cars, as the spacing between airplane seats is so limited that a child in a forward-facing seat will very likely impact the seat in front of them...even in a minor crash or during turbulence. For those who need information to take with them to educate the aircraft crew on the necessity and safety of rear-facing, the following links and quotes should help."

Oh and we always travel w/ Bethany's Britax Advantage...never had any issues about the seat fitting either rear facing or forward facing.

REMEMBER... when installing seats forward facing flip the airplane's seat's buckle so the release button is facing the airplane's seat back... it makes it 100% easier to remove the seat after you've landed! :-)

HTH

Christine

[ralu]

I had the same problem flying USAir when DS was 9mos. I tried to install the seat RF, and the flight attendant told me I couldn't do that because the person in front of me would not be able to recline their seat. I was very annoyed and explained that DS was not allowed to sit FF per manufacturer instructions, but he was very rude and basically told me that either I turn the seat FF or leave the plane. We finally got to a compromise where he let me have the seat RF for take-off and landing.

For the return flight however I had no problems having DS RF.


Raluca

[tippy]

"REMEMBER... when installing seats forward facing flip the airplane's seat's buckle so the release button is facing the airplane's seat back... it makes it 100% easier to remove the seat after you've landed!"

Thank your for that piece of info. I am probably going to fly forward facing since Jet Blue has Digital TV for each seat and it will keep ds occupied (I hope!).

[tippy]

Gotcha. That makes sense. Ok, I will check out my manual and see if it shows any examples of how to install it forward facing. I'm thinking the airplane belt just goes through the area that the "lap" part of the belt passes through in the car. Thanks again.