I'm so confused about baby sleep I don't even know what questions to ask!

[Judegirl]

I know I keep asking about bedtimes and rituals and naps...but I'm missing something fundamental here, so I suspect I'm not asking exactly the right questions.

We *want* to follow dd's lead re. bed and naps, to let her set her own pattern at her own pace, etc...but we don't know how to do that. How do we know when she's tired? She seems to go from wide awake to overtired in an instant.

Dh and I have no two days that look alike, so if we rely on our schedule to send her cues, she'll have no consistency at all. The only way to begin to get any structure into her life is to try to do at least a few things at the same time every day.

But if we have no idea when she'll be sleepy and when she'll be awake...how do we go about doing that? Before we started putting her down for regular naps, she'd be awake all day long, then sleep for a couple of hours, then sleep at night. It seemed to us that she wasn't getting enough sleep, so we started putting her down for a nap every 90 minutes during the day. Bad idea?? Now she sleeps for about 20 minutes at each nap early in the day, and is then cranky and overtired from about 8pm-midnight, when we have a hard time getting her to sleep at all. This is new, and she was so easy before, we feel like we might have messed with her internal clock somehow.

How can you tell when a 2-month old needs a nap? (She rubs her eyes all day long, but doesn't seem tired in any other way.)

Should we stop trying to get her to nap, and if she's up all day, so be it?

How do you know when to start a bedtime ritual? If there's no way to gauge when she wants to go to sleep, do we just wait and one day it'll be clearer?

How do you distinguish (for the baby) between naps and bedtime? Or don't you? If you do, then how do you know whether the last nap is bedtime or just another nap??

These are really basic questions, I guess. I think we've been putting the cart before the horse...and now we're completely confused.

I'm sorry this is so long. Thanks for any help you can offer.

Jude

[ShayleighCarsensMom]

I had all the questions you had and there are a lot of great books to read up on childs sleep habits...
The one that I read and really found useful (although we never did the cry it out) was "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" by Marc Weisbluth (sp??)
Check it out!
Good luck...

[alkagift]

Jude,
The guideline that I learned (on this board, actually) is a nap every two hours or so. Eventually that will lengthen as your babe gets older, but for now that should work. The structure should help her and you. I second Mark Weissbluth's book in terms of reference about sleep habits and what to expect when, especially at your child's age.

Allison
Mommy to Matthew Clayton, 5/19/03

[amp]

This is such a hard question, because every baby is different, but I know you are struggling with this, so I'll do my best to add something other than what I've said before.

I don't know a lot about babies sleep, but I do know what we experienced. We found that DS could not go more than 1.5-2 hrs awake before needing to nap. However, and it's a big however, he sometimes only slept for 20 min, like your DD, and then he couldn't last more than about 45 min before being ready to sleep. Honestly, at that age, he slept in my arms a lot, mostly after having a bottle. I didn't really put him down for naps a lot then, unless he already fell alseep in my arms. That is how I followed his lead. I never set up structured napping times. That's really the only way I knew he was tired. "Oh, look, he fell asleep. He must have been tired again." Really, there weren't any of the other signs that people say to watch for. Really, he wouldn't stay up all day. He couldn't even keep his eyes open when he got that tired. After about 3 3mths of that, I got comfortable knowing he'd sleep when he needed to sleep.

We didn't start any bedtime ritual until he was maybe 6 mths old, when he kind of picked a bedtime for himself. At that point, he would sleep more hours at bedtime, even if he woke late in the wee hours to eat. That's all that differentiated bedtime for us. Prior to that, I used to joke that day, night, it's all relative, because I'll be us in 2 hrs or 1 hr, anyway. For us, bedtime became whatever time *I* went to bed, even if I got up an hour later. Once he started sleeping more hours at a time, and had established a 2 hrs awake schedule and structured naps, then we started finding him being ready for bed at about 7 pm. HE picked this. NOt me. I had absolutely no control or clue what was going on. Thank goodness his body figured it out! So don't feel bad about not know what to do. I don't think it's as cut and dried as you think it will be. I hope to heck this gives you some reassurance that you aren't screwing things up and that there are no sure answeres. We just find our way, if somewhat blindly, through this new challenge of parenthood! Good luck!

[miki]

I second reading that Weissbluth book if you haven't.

I think the thing that helped me when DD was that young was to have a routine, not a schedule. I'd do the same series of things with DD each time she was awake. It was hard to figure out what were her tired cues. There was a point when it was 0-60 in two seconds. My DD does a lot of ear and hair pulling when she gets tired. Or she uses both hands to scratch her head. At 2 months, I think she was having her next nap maybe 30-45 minutes after she woke up. She was not awake for 90 minutes at a time until much much later.

Maybe you have the unusual baby that doesn't sleep a lot since there is a wide variation in how much sleep babies need. But if she becomes very cranky at some point at night, my first guess would be that she does need more sleep during the day because she is overtired.

The way I could tell between a nap and nightsleep was that after a nap, DD would nurse and be awake. After bedtime, if she woke up, I would nurse her and she would still be sleepy. Her bedtime at 2 months was 6pm on the dot and her nighttime was 12 hours of sleep.
Maybe Riordan is cranky 8-midnight because when she is waking up at 8pm, she really needs to go back to bed to continue her nightsleep.

HTH Good luck.

[Karenn]

Baby sleep IS confusing! So I don't think your're alone in your confusion.


How can you tell when a 2-month old needs a nap? (She rubs her eyes all day long, but doesn't seem tired in any other way.)
Some babies just don't show their "sleepy cues" as easily as others. My DS will act alert and happy until he's absolutely exhausted. By that point, he's overtired and sleep is even longer in coming. He's been that way since day one, and since he's now two, I'm not expecting it to change anytime soon. When he was little, I always had to guess if he might be tired. That makes it really hard to figure out a schedule (as you're discovering!)

One thing that helped was keeping a sleep log. DH and I would write down all of his sleep times- when he fell asleep, how long he slept and when he woke up. Sometimes (but unfortunately not always!) we could look back over the log and get an idea of his patterns and try to set a schedule according to the patterns we saw. I usually had all of the info in my head, but having it in writing did make a difference, and easier for DH to offer his input.

How do you know when to start a bedtime ritual? If there's no way to gauge when she wants to go to sleep, do we just wait and one day it'll be clearer?
Some experts say you'll be able to figure out your child's "natural bedtime" by looking at the sleep log. That never happened for us, so we picked the time that a lot of experts suggest (7:00) and stuck with that. The consistent routine and consistent bedtime turned out to be very important for DS.

How do you distinguish (for the baby) between naps and bedtime? Or don't you? If you do, then how do you know whether the last nap is bedtime or just another nap??
I had a slightly different routine at each time. The key difference was there was a bath at bedtime, and not at naptime. Knowing the difference between last nap and bedtime was tricky for awhile too. I don't remember what we did- sorry!

Hang in there! The better you get to know your baby, the easier it will be to understand her sleep patterns! The Weissbluth book mentioned above helped me a lot, but there are a number of other books out there that people have found useful too. Good luck!

[StaceyKim]

I know for me, my DS kind of fell into a nap schedule on his own around 2 months. I had my routine...went for a walk around 9am to get coffee and bagel and he would fall asleep in the stroller for about an hour. Then he would wake up for a feeding and we would play on the mat or watch a video or both. (If it was raining or bad weather, he would nap at home in the bouncy seat).

2 hours later at noon he would be tired for his long nap (2 hours). I liked getting outside, so I would take him in the stroller, grab lunch and he would sleep (like a babe) for 2 hours, wake up and be hungry again.

2 hours later at 4pm, he would take his 3rd nap for about an hour. Usually in his bouncy seat. At this age he didn't like his crib for naps.

I did have a bedtime ritual that I started when he was 8 weeks or so. We would play at 5pm and he would have his feeding at 6pm, bath, book, then bed around 7:30pm. He would wake up at around 10 for another feeding then he was down for the night. At this age he woke up pretty early...5, 5:30am, sometimes 6am.

My DS used to rub his eyes a lot too but he wasn't always tired. I guess he was on the 2 hour rule. Up for 2 hours and then a nap.

I didn't think we would ever get into a schedule but it just happened. I did read Gina Fords book but obviously didn't follow word for word but it was a good guideline.

HTH!!

[chlobo]

Judegirl,

If it makes you feel any better my DD is 8 months and we're still trying to figure it out. She was very late in developing all the sleeping milestones talked about in the book (morning nap, afternoon nap, bedtime). She is also very hard to read. Eventually we figured out something that worked.

I read a bunch of sleep books. Take what they say with a grain of salt. Don't worry if your baby doesn't "look like" what they describe in the book. I second the sleep log to help find the pattern. It may be a big help.

Good luck.

[lmintzer]

Hi Jude. We are Weissbluth schedule-followers here. It started, for us, with DS#1. He was a colicky baby and wasn't napping AT ALL at home, even at 4 months. Not to go into our whole sleep nightmare, but our lives were totally in shambles. We were all a mess from total and utter exhaustion.

So, after reading the book and actually meeting with Weissbluth, we got on the plan.

Here are some of my thoughts about it:

There are babies who are "Weissbluthian" babies and some who are not, meaning that some appear to need to sleep every few hours and mesh very nicely into the 9/1 nap schedule with an early bedtime. My kids seem to be "set" this way, at least for the most part. But I definitely know others with kids who really seem to "set" later--they are not fussy when they go to bed later, sleep in in the a.m. . . So, the first step is observing your daughter and seeing she seems (at least roughly) to be comfortable on such a schedule.

Second point (which may address your question about how much of a life you can have with a baby who is either napping or nursing): based on what I've observed with my kids and others, temperament, especially in the "flexibility" domain is a biggy in determining how much you can "cheat" on naps. Some more easy-tempered/flexible kids seem fine doing at least one nap/day on the go. Their parents may commit to one good crib nap (either morning or afternoon, whichever the baby seems to take more readily) and let the baby nap in the go for the other nap(s) so the parent can do errands, socialize, tote around another child, etc. This DID NOT and would not work for my ds#1 but seems reasonable for my ds#2 (who is a more mellow baby). We always let him do his take his first nap in the crib, but if the first nap is really early and he's ready for second nap, at say, noon, then he can take his second nap out if we're still out and about with ds#1. If he takes his first nap a little later, then he does his 2nd nap in the crib while ds#1 naps. DS#2 still typically takes a 3rd nap (as is common until about 9 months), and we often let that one happn out or we'll be trapped in the house the whole day.

About bedtime rituals: it's never too early to start. We started reading DS#1 "Goodnight Moon" each night and then added 2 songs a few months later. This became his signal that bedtime was coming. For a little baby, it could be something like a bath and a bottle/nursing and/or rocking. But it is good to be as consistent as possible within reason so that your baby learns that you're signaling bedtime (and hopefully, a large chunk of sleep).

Your dd is still really little, so don't be dismayed about her short naps and need to sleep frequently. She won't "get it" all at once, but what you may want to work on first is the early a.m. nap. As Weissbluth recommends, keep the interval of wakefulness in the morning very short. Expose her to natural light during this time. Start soothing before she gets tired (if you can catch it), and put her down for nap no more than 2 hours after waking. My ds sometimes needs that nap 90 minutes after waking. If your ds takes a brief nap (like 20 mins.), try to continue it--go in and pat her or whatever you think might help her extend the nap a little bit. After your first nap is more consistent, she should be ready to start working on nap#2.

I know I'm not addressing all of your questions, but this is getting long and maybe overwhelming, so I'll stop now. I certainly don't have all the answers. Though my almost 8 month-old DS naps pretty well, his night sleep is not good. You'll probably see me post about it later today to solicit some advice. : )

[Judegirl]

Thank you so much to all of you - my post was long (and not particularly interesting!) - and your responses were thorough and helpful.

Dh is on his way home with the Weissbluth book...something else for me to read and go crazy about, probably, but at least I'll have more of a clue. I can't help feeling like we're imposing a sleep schedule onto her that isn't ideal for her. She seemed happier before we started messing around with naps at all.

Hopefully the book will help a bit more...thanks again to all of you.

Jude

[Judegirl]

Andrea - Thanks for your post...I remembered that when we were at my MIL's house, she napped regularly, because she was always in someone's arms. At home she gets put into her crib or swing for a nap, since we're not on vacation at home, and there are fewer people, so she can't sleep away in our arms as much. If she were, we could probably pick up on a schedule. I wish we'd paid attention to time passing while we were away now! But you gave me a few ideas...maybe we'll spend the weekend letting her drift off while being held! :)

[amp]

Then don't impose a sleep schedule on her. As I stated above...we didn't, and it all worked out. That is how you follow her lead. Give the routine/schedule a little more time to present itself, and maybe you'll find it works for you.

[Judegirl]

Thank you Karen!! That's exactly how dd is - one minute she's babbling and playing and wide-eyed, and then it suddenly hits her and there's no time for a ritual or anything else because she's overtired!

We actually are keeping a sleep log, but I'm not sure how useful it is, since it logs her sleep patterns according to when *we're* putting her to sleep. I'm not sure it can tell us much about her natural pattern, because it seems to me that every time we put her down to sleep, we're interfering in that pattern. (Maybe we should go back to the crib instead of the swing, and assume she'll sleep if she's tired enough.)

We'll look at the log in a week or so and see what we can figure out...it's good to know it can be helpful.

Jude

[Judegirl]

Carren,

Those words were more valuable than you know. I need all the chill pills I can get these days. :)

Jude