Controversial thread - why a pro-life person cannot vote for Kerry

[Torey]

I decided to post this here in the hopes that someone will read it. I'm not trying to be controversial, I'm simply stating how I feel and what I believe. 30 million abortions done in this country since 1973 is 30 million people that never had a chance to be born, learn to walk, talk, see a sunset, or vote. I know everyone likes to pretend that all abortions are a private matter and that a fetus is not a baby. For the record, fetus is a latin word meaning "little one", not some word that means unhuman.

But as someone born after 1973, I take offense that I have no right to say anything. I could have been aborted and I'm sure that many people that I should have met, known and loved were aborted. I know a woman born before 1973 who has been told by her mother that if abortion had been legal at that time she would have been aborted. I cannot imagine this world without this wonderful woman and her beautiful family and children (who would not be here if their mother had been aborted).

There are probably people that were going to find cures for all sorts of horrible diseases that have been aborted. Everyone wants to look at what is wrong with children growing up today and say they are ignored by their parents, they are spoiled, they are exposed to violence, drugs, sex. All of these things are true, but maybe what is ultimately wrong today is that ALL children born today are LUCKY to be born. They are missing MILLIONS of their friends who are aborted. How can anyone say that doesn't have an effect on society? The Holocaust was a horrible event in the lives of the Jewish people and to a certain extent has affected their culture permanently. I truly believe that abortion is a Holocaust and that it has affected our society and our children permanently.

I don't understand why people act as though women have no choices. They do have choices - you can choose to abstain from sex, you can choose to use birth control, you can choose to put your baby up for adoption. Abortion does not have to be used as a form of birth control. I know there are many people out there who do not agree with me and I'm sure that I'll take heat for this. But as John Kerry said yesterday - "we need to ask whether we are on God's side, not whether God is on our side." And I have to believe the passage from the Bible that says "in your mother's womb I knew you". If God knows a child in his mother's womb then I have to ask, at the end of the world, during the Final Judgment, will God ask where are 30 million (and many more by that time) of my children?, or will God chastise me for trying to stop abortion? Do you think God believes that abortion is good?

[Rachels]

Torey, let me refer you to the Activism forum at www.mothering.com/discussions. As I've said several times now, the owners of this board have asked us to try to take heated political debates elsewhere. The activism forum there is just one of many places where this discussion would be more appropriately held.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/character/2/character39.gif

"We have a hunger of the mind which asks for knowledge of all around us, and the more we gain, the more is our desire; the more we see, the more we are

[Bethann31]

Thanks Rachel. I was going to reply, but decided that my reply would only fuel this fire, and hey, I don't want to do that. I didn't know about the activism forum, and wondered where people should go.

You are a great moderator.

Beth

Josh 3/90
Mollie 4/92
Jeffrey 12/94
and Katherine 6/03

http://lilypie.com/baby2/030604/3/4/1/-5/.png

[C99]

I don't think abortion is the only issue in an election. It's an important one to me, but it's certainly not the only one. And, I just have to ask: how is George W. Bush pro-life in sending thousands of American troops to kill and be killed in the war in Iraq?

My feelings on abortion can be summed up this way: The desire of the government to protect the "rights" of a fetus do not and should not trump the rights of the mother. It's a mother's body and she has to live with the consequences. What anyone else* thinks isn't really important or worth considering, IMO. Also, I don't understand why abortion shouldn't be or isn't a viable choice in your laundry list. Birth control doesn't always work and putting a baby up for adoption is still a huge commitment that not everyone wants to make.

* By anyone else, I mean government entities, strangers, etc. Obviously, the father's opinion matters as well, if he is involved although, ultimately, it is still a woman's decision.

Finally, I don't care what god thinks about abortion. We live in a country that keeps religion and state affairs separate. I see no reason to change that now.

[MelissaTC]

Well put. :)

[jk3]

Perfectly stated.

Additionally I cringe (putting it mildly) when I think about politicians who feel that abortion should be banned even in the case of rape + if the mother's life is at risk.

Jenn
DS 6/03

http://lilypie.com/baby2/030603/2/5/1/-5/.png

[elvisfan]

And let me tell you, Torey, that www.mothering.com is a extremely liberal website where your conservative opinion will not only be unwelcome but shot down. BTW, I agree with your post. Good job.
>Torey, let me refer you to the Activism forum at
>www.mothering.com/discussions. As I've said several times
>now, the owners of this board have asked us to try to take
>heated political debates elsewhere. The activism forum there
>is just one of many places where this discussion would be more
>appropriately held.
>
>-Rachel
>Mom to Abigail Rose
>5/18/02
>
>http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/character/2/character39.gif
>
>"We have a hunger of the mind which asks for knowledge of all
>around us, and the more we gain, the more is our desire; the
>more we see, the more we are

[Emmas Mom]

Soldiers who enlist in the Armed Forces have a choice to do so, knowing if they do they may be called on to go to war. There has been no recent draft that I'm aware of. Aborted fetuses have no choice.

Abortion is definitely not the only issue in an election. It's an important one for some people...obviously. Additionally, there may be separation of church & state but I often see impassioned policital speaches thanking God and asking for his blessings, etc. Considering the majority of Americans are Christians and/or believe in a higher power, it seems quite impossible for those people to NOT bring those beliefs into their politics.

[Rachels]

Actually, no, if you check it out, there are tons of conservatives posting in activism these days. It's an even split.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/character/2/character39.gif

"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou

[ddmarsh]

Hmmm, let me get this straight. You jump into another thread and completely hijack it with your diatribe. You post factual inaccuracies about Kerry's position on abortion then ignore the corrected information and launch again into a diatribe. Apparantly you didn't find satisfaction in all of that and decided that you needed to start an entirely different thread with your same diatribe despite the fact that you were asked repeatedly to cease and desist.

Personally I could care less why you are voting a particular way or what your views on this or any other issue are. The original thread was a person asking those of a particular view point for a few sites on Kerry's stance on various positions and that information was provided, there was simply no place for your inappropriate interjection(s).

[nohomama]

>Considering the majority of Americans are Christians...

Now that, to me, is a truly offensive statement. Even when qualifying with "or believe in a higher power," the statement both over generalizes and completely negates a huge portion of this country's population.

[Joshuasmommy]

But "Considering the majority of Americans are Christians and/or believe in a higher power" is a true statement. I remember seeing a poll recently saying that more people were not religious these days but the majority of Americans were. I don't remember the percentages but I want to say that they non-religious was under 20% which is a huge amount of people but that actual statement is correct. (unless things have changed since I read the article)

[mamicka]

You have the right to be offended by whatever you want... but the statement that offends you is a fact according to the 2000 census.

I don't see how stating that "it seems quite impossible for those people to NOT bring those beliefs into their politics." negates anyone. The fact that I believe A does not negate that you believe B.

[Joshuasmommy]

I know that this has been discussed before but I get the feeling that it is ok to talk about things having to do with Democrats or liberals on the board but as soon as someone mentions anything about Republicans or conservatives they are told not to talk about it. I don't want to rehash this as I know it was talked about a lot and I personally wouldn't want to have to moderate these boards but there are some fairly controversial things posted on another thread but no one has said anything about those statements.

[Emmas Mom]

Not according to statistics. Sorry, not trying to offend anyone but statistics due speak for themselves. Both Bush & Kerry have brought their belief in God into their politics. I think it's only natural for people who have strong beliefs to do so.

Edited for typo.

[JulieL]

***appluad*** I have felt this way for quite a while.

>I know that this has been discussed before but I get the
>feeling that it is ok to talk about things having to do with
>Democrats or liberals on the board but as soon as someone
>mentions anything about Republi[[cans or conservatives they are
>told not to talk about it. I don't want to rehash this as I
>know it was talked about a lot and I personally wouldn't want
>to have to moderate these boards but there are some fairly
>controversial things posted on another thread but no one has
>said anything about those statements.

[khakismom]

>I know that this has been discussed before but I get the
>feeling that it is ok to talk about things having to do with
>Democrats or liberals on the board but as soon as someone
>mentions anything about Republicans or conservatives they are
>told not to talk about it.

I have that feeling too.

[mamicka]

Thanks, ITA.

[deborah_r]

Oh, you changed my mind!!! I'm going to vote for Bush now! Because John Kerry wants to kill babies! It's all so clear to me now...

[MelissaTC]

LOL...sign me up too!

[mamicka]

If I remember correctly, sarcasm comes close to crossing the line.

[candybomiller]

Interesting. I am going to vote for Kerry and I am 100% pro-life. I just don't feel that a government has the right to make a choice about what a woman can or can't do with her own body.

JMO, though.

[californiamom]

"Soldiers who enlist in the Armed Forces have a choice to do so, knowing if they do they may be called on to go to war. There has been no recent draft that I'm aware of. Aborted fetuses have no choice."

Are you saying you are pro-choice, then? ;-)

By allowing mother the right to choose one is not promoting killing. You're simply allowing them to *choose*. They may or may not choose to do so. That's freedom. That's democracy.

Also, if abortions are legal or not, they will still happen in many cases -- so it's better to have them be legal and done safely.

Now let me just say I'd never abort a fetus, ever. But this is just what I believe and what I can or cannot do. I also agree that abortions should not be used as a way of birth control. But if the mother's or the baby's life in greatly in danger because of a pregnancy, or if the pregnancy is a result of a rape, then I sympathize with the women that choose to terminate their pregnancies in these circumstances, even if I personally would never do it.

Ana

[deborah_r]

Well, I think the original post crosses the line of why we are all here. Do I come on these message boards looking for someone to tell me how to vote? Does anyone?

In fact, I don't come on these boards to tell anyone what choices to make about anything. Offering suggestions of what one might want to do, in response to a question asked by another member, yes. But I didn't see anyone post "Gee, I'm pro-life and I'm not sure who to vote for...can someone help me!" The whole post is a big, preachy speech, and I personally don't appreciate it, but if a moderator asks, I will remove my sarcastic comments.

[ddmarsh]

"Oh, you changed my mind!!! I'm going to vote for Bush now! Because John "Kerry wants to kill babies! It's all so clear to me now...

ROFL Deborah! And to think, we have Torey to thank for it all.

[candybomiller]

Deborah,

I enjoyed your sarcastic comments! Long may they live. (pun intended.)

[stillplayswithbarbies]

>You have the right to be offended by whatever you want... but
>the statement that offends you is a fact according to the 2000
>census.
>

I went looking for something to back up this fact, and couldn't find anything. Can you share your source for the statement that the 2000 census shows that ". . . the majority of Americans are Christians and/or believe in a higher power . . ."?

I went to the government census site and found this statement:

from http://www.census.gov/prod/www/religion.htm :
"Public Law 94-521 prohibits us from asking a question on religious affiliation on a mandatory basis; therefore, the Bureau of the Census is not the source for information on religion. "

I think before we can back up this statement with cites, we need to know what is meant by the term "Christian". What religions are included by that, and more importantly, what religions are excluded from that? (since I believe it is the exclusions that is one of the things that makes the original statement offensive)

edited to add: Facts are facts, yes, but facts can be used to offend someone. How those facts are stated, which facts are stated and which are left out, can be very offensive.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[mommd]

From a recent speach:

'I oppose abortion, personally," Kerry told a reporter for an Iowa newspaper. ''I don't like abortion. I believe life begins at conception."

He continued: ''But I don't take my Catholic beliefs, my article of faith, and legislate it on a Protestant, on a Jew, or an atheist, who doesn't share it. We have separation of church and state in the United States of America."

I think that's how it should be. I believe religion should not determine anything in politics (which is why I could never live in Utah). If you must know, I am against abortion as a means of birth control, which is why I can't give my whole hearted support to Kerry, but I don't think it should be illegal. I will still vote for Kerry, because he is NOT BUSH.

[Emmas Mom]

Ana, I guess I *am* pro-choice then! lol I agree with your statements. It's very sad when they choose to have an abortion as a form of birth control. I'd rather see more education & more parental involvement, though not even that is going to stop it 100%. Though I do agree with abortion in cases of rape, incest & when the mother's life is threatened.

My last roommate, before I got married, had an abortion just because she forgot to use protection. While I did not agree with what she did, she's still my friend. I think it's ok to disagree with someone & still be their friends. Seems political issues certainly have a way of bringing out the opinions. ;)

[kathsmom]

>I know that this has been discussed before but I get the
>feeling that it is ok to talk about things having to do with
>Democrats or liberals on the board but as soon as someone
>mentions anything about Republicans or conservatives they are
>told not to talk about it. I don't want to rehash this as I
>know it was talked about a lot and I personally wouldn't want
>to have to moderate these boards but there are some fairly
>controversial things posted on another thread but no one has
>said anything about those statements.

I have to say that I agree with this as well. As far as the sarcastic comments stated in this thread - thanks for making fun of my beliefs. :(

[babymama]

Sadly, soldiers are not the only ones killed in wars. Many innocent civilians, including pregnant women and their unborn babies, die violent deaths in war.

Lydia
Mama to Santiago, born 11/16/03
http://lilypie.com/baby1/041116/0/6/1/-6/.png

[ddmarsh]

"I don't see how stating that "it seems quite impossible for those people "to NOT bring those beliefs into their politics." negates anyone. The "fact that I believe A does not negate that you believe B.

And the fact that you would *like* to have religion play a role in politics does not mean that it is so. I never quite get those who seem constitutionally incapable of grasping the concept of separation of church and state.

[flagger]

I suggest you wait until the RNC and then post comments about the RNC. I know and trust that the majority of posters who have indicated their political leanings will stay out of that thread as we on the R side have stayed out of their thread.

[Emmas Mom]

You are very correct. I think 9/11 showed us that all too well.

Here's a statistical link for those who were looking for one:

http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html

[jasabo]

***Oh, you changed my mind!!! I'm going to vote for Bush now! Because John Kerry wants to kill babies! It's all so clear to me now... ***

Comments like these are what I referred to in another post in my apparently unsuccessful attempt to point out that, while many (including the moderator) argue about "stir the pot" topics, there are NO moderator warnings brought about sarcastic, rude comments like this. Quite a double standard, IMO.

Honestly - the topic says "Controversial thread..." If you don't come to this board to have someones' opinions thrown at you, then don't open the message. I personally couldn't care less about reading about the DNC, but rather then make sarcastic comments about it, or argue with the posters, I just chose to not read it. Like someone else posted - conservative viewpoints are treated completely differently then liberal viewpoints on this board. And, for the record, I don't agree with the OP's post - I didn't even read it all because I can't deal with people preaching to me. However, I'm not going to make sarcastic comments about them - what's so hard about being respectful of other people's opinions?

Lisa - mom to 1 yr old twin boys

[deborah_r]

Since I think I'm the only one accused of sarcasm in this thread, I assume you are referring to my comments. I don't feel I am making fun of anyone's beliefs, or at least I certainly did not intend to. I was responding to the audacity of the original post to think people's choice to vote for Kerry will be swayed by anti-abortion rhetoric. It saddens me that so many people seem to base their decision of who to vote for on a single belief of the candidate.

The OP's comments about women having other choices, like abstaining, etc., just sicken me. Do people who feel this way really not know anyone who found themselves in a position they could not have foreseen, with an unwanted pregnancy? I personally have a very close friend who probably would not be alive today had she not had this choice. Her mental health most likely could not have survived carrying a child in the situation she was in, and I firmly believe she would have committed suicide. The OP would have had that choice made unavailable to my friend, and other women in similar situations.

[Joshuasmommy]

Exactly, it seems like it is ok to make fun of a conservative opinion but if someone had made a comment like that on the DNC they would have been attacked.
I too didn't finish the OPs post for the same reason, I have my own opinion and other peoples opinions aren't going to change mine. But they should have the right to state theirs without being made fun of.

[ddmarsh]

It is patently absurd to suggest that the sarcastic responses in this thread are based on the anti-abortion content of the OP's message. The responses were based upon the unmitigated gall of someone swooping in and preaching her particular beliefs to others who she felt somehow needed "enlightened."

[missym]

I completely agree with everything Lisa said.

Missy, mom to Gwen 03/03

[deborah_r]

My sincerest apologies to the original poster and those who were offended by my sarcastic comments. I just about certain I have seen sarcasm used in other threads, so I didn't realize it was such an offense.

My comments were inspired by irritation with a thread last evening which was intentionally designed to draw in people who think Bush lied about WMD, and then once you were in that thread, you found it was an anti-democrat post. Then another post was hijacked with the same content that appears in this post. Then someone who asked for websites to learn about Kerry was offered a link directly to George W. Bush's site. This is not an excuse, but by way of explanation for my insensitivty, just telling you these were the things on my mind when I posted.

I will not ever post in a political thread again, and will probably not bother reading them anymore, as it is just too frustrating, and takes me too far off the track of why I come here.

Once again, I do apologize. I should have respectfully disagreed with the original poster.

[muszy]

Torey,

I love the sarcasm. Thanks for the comic relief.

Oh wait, you were serious....God help us all.

[mamicka]

I offered links to GWB because I think it is helpful to research both sides. It very well may persuade them to vote for Kerry if they know what Bush stands for. That's hardly out of line.

[Melanie]

>Sadly, soldiers are not the only ones killed in wars. Many
>innocent civilians, including pregnant women and their unborn
>babies, die violent deaths in war.
>

I just saw Fahrenheit 9/11 last night (and no, I don't want to discuss Michael Moore). I'm just so sad about the babies...I don't care where they were born, it's just horribly wrong what happened to them.

[MelissaTC]

Considering the original poster stated that her DH is a Republican and was looking for more information regarding Kerry, yeah, it was out of line.

[ddmarsh]

An interesting comparison of the candidates is found below:

http://www.independent-media.tv/itemprint.cfm?fmedia_id=7073&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

[peanut4us]

I can't believe I'm doing this....

I usually don't bother with a lot of the links that folks post to re-inforce their position, but I thought this one might really be a good comparison. For some reason, I foolishly thought that it might attempt to be unbiased toward BOTH candidates. I would love to see something that is just for my own education. But this link is anything but. So, yeah, I'll give you the "interesting" comparison... but it probably only means something to Kerry supporters.

For the record: I think both candidates aren't going to do all that much good for the citizens of this country. I don't vote on just one issue... unless the candidates seem to be otherwise equal (in my analysis for my own personal reasons) in all other things. I won't hold my breath waiting for the day that I actually see candidates who are really worth voting for. Until then, I'll be voting the usual, the lesser of the two evils.

[Rachels]

Okay, can we agree that this has now gotten out of hand? Enough baiting, sarcasm, offense, etc. The DNC thread has stayed perfectly civil, and I offer my thanks for that. I hope that when the RNC occurs, folks who wish to are able to start a similar thread and have it equally respected. As for this one, I'm locking it now. Please, folks, before you post purely to start a thread aimed at hot-button stuff, remember that they almost never go well and try to think about whether the uproar is really worth it.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/character/2/character39.gif

"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou