Re: controversial topics...

[stella]

to get it out of that immeidate topic and thread...

I happen to be in total disagreement with what Torey said, but surely she has the right to state her opinion? Whatever happened to "if you don't like it, don't read it?" I thought we were doing pretty well here for a while.

And we have discussed all kinds of things lately that I know people diagree with and no one was being singled out and made fun of for stating their beliefs.

What I hate is the nasty sarcasm and the condescension in some of the posts. To me the most unattractive and ugly part of these posts are not the OPs' (I am referring to these controversial topics in general) sentiments, but the sharp retorts and putdowns.

I wish it would stop.

Just exercising my right of free speech!

[papal]

I hesitate to post this because I have chosen to resist entering into hot-topic debates on the boards.. this is not why i come here.
But i do agree.. like everyone else, Torey has a right to her opinion and even if you disagree, i do think we should all be respectful and not rude towards her.. that is not fair and honestly, if it had been me, my feelings would have been hurt. If you believe something passionately, you should be able to speak your mind without fear of being ridiculed, you know?
Anyway, back to my teething, flu-cough-ear-infected dd... sigh... rough day.

[Rachels]

I agree as well. The sarcasm and ridicule is never okay. I just came up to check on that thread, and it is now locked.

But here's the thing: recent history on these boards has shown us that these kinds of threads always go south in a hurry. Yes, everyone has a right to their opinions, but posting such hot-button stuff here just doesn't work very often, and it's against the wishes of the owners of these boards. There are many other forums on the web that welcome things like abortion debates. Starting them here is asking for trouble even though it shouldn't be. They're not locked outright because, as you've said, the OPs have a right to state their opinions. But they usually wind up locked eventually because they simply degenerate into shouting matches and name-calling. Everyone posting today has been here long enough to know that. You can't label a thread controversial and then claim not to know you're stirring up controversy, and you can't post sarcastic attacks on a member with whom you disagree without getting the whole thing shut down.


-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/character/2/character39.gif

"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou

[lisams]

I agree. There are people talking down to others as if they are the authority about what is okay or not okay to say. It has happened in posts that were not of political nature as well.

Lisa

[Torey]

No one has hurt my feelings in the slightest. I honestly don't care if everyone disagrees with me. I felt the need to post what I posted, and figured if just one person changed his/her mind then I accomplished what I set out to do. I have felt that there are a lot of controversial topics that have been posted lately, and I have felt that I have been outlawed from posting in them b/c I disagreed with the OP. All the people that posted replies to these threads agreed with the OP and I'm sure I would have been called controversial and worse for disagreeing with the post. So I really don't believe that everything has been peachy. But for those of you who think that everything is fine as long as we agree with one another i.e. those who disagree better keep their mouths shut, please know that there are lots of us out there who do disagree with you. We just aren't all willing to be attacked for it.

[zen_bliss]

it would be completely appropriate at this point if the fields would intervene and say ok folks, we gave you a wide field, but now it IS necessary to put a topic ban on politics. they have been very generous in allowing the Lounge to exist. isn't it nice to be able to ask your 'friends' for advice on vacuums and sleeping challenges? what has gotten lost in all this is the fields are paying for this bandwidth! can everyone stop and remember that the next time there's a post promoting an oversimplified political point of view that is certain to get everyone's knickers in a twist whether intended or not. this board is first off about delightfully materialistic baby stuff, and secondly about baby raising. everything else is just happy whipped topping, let's all just be grateful we can hang out here. (group hug and kumbaya campfire singing to follow.)

i don't get the appeal of posting political hotbutton stuff here! it's far more efficient and informational to watch fox, cnn, crossfire, daily show, whatever your flavor. there's so much getting worked up into a emotional froth here that it scorches the earth for interesting debate. it was a nice idea for awhile, but it's just not working. it's not that we don't have plenty of intellectual firepower here -- but, notice that the attorneys and those who do work/have worked in politics don't post edifying insights in these threads? because the level of the platitudes being thrown around is 'why bother' level inane. i see sloganeering, flag planting, shrill histrionics, regurgitating sound bites obtained elsewhere, snitty arguments about the validity of the source where those bites were obtained, overbroad statements, need to have the last word, pettiness, self-righteousness, self-importance, 'what about this' examples that seemed merely semi-compelling even in junior high forensics exercises, but nothing resembing insightful discourse, and notably, little to no sense of humor! not to ruin your day with news that santa claus is really your dad, but here it is -- the positions our politicians take publicly, even if called 'personally held beliefs', are carefully constructed personas based on an amalgam of sophisticated polling and political strategy. so all this personal wear and tear expended on earnest fealty to a candidate or a party is an unfortunate wasted drain of energy. we can best do what we need to do with our votes and our activism -- in the appropriate venues of our real lives. really, i don't care if you're a revivalist whig or lockstep libertarian. that's not why i come here. i want to know what carseat you liked on a long flight and tips on soothing baby when the molars come in.

if you'll excuse me now, i need to stroll downstairs in my jammies and get a TJ bundt cake to fuel my efforts on some research on a storage shed for the burgeoning collection of baby gear (courtesy of this board) that no longer fits in my car trunk.

[nohomama]

Zen,

Not a single person has said it better than you just did. You rock lady!

[Momof3Labs]

My view is this:

1. This board belongs to Denise and Alan, not to us, though they are kind enough to let us use it for anything that crosses our mind.

2. After a few recent incidents, Denise and Alan asked us to take political discussions elsewhere.

3. We begged and pleaded that they reconsider.

4. They did, and asked us to use discretion, knowing that these posts often go south quickly.

5. Now we've had a few more incidents with certain political threads.

Applying the 1-2-3 Magic approach, we'd all (yes, all, in the sibling rivalry application) be sent to our rooms for a time-out now. Though for those of us with toddlers, five minutes alone in our room doesn't sound like a punishment at all, but I digress...

Anyways, my feeling is that it has been proven time and time again that hotbutton threads only bring out the worst in all of us, and I wish that people would just take that stuff elsewhere (yes, both the original posts and the replies, not that I am objecting to the recent topics per se but the means of delivery - we're all adults here and know when something will stir things up). And if we can't police ourselves to keep things under control, then I have no problem with Denise and Alan setting some limits. Perhaps not a popular opinion but popularity is not my objective.

FWIW...

[Joshuasmommy]

I totally agree with you! Especially since this is an election year and it is only going to get more and more heated.

[barbarhow]

You've got my vote Mama. This was beautifully said. I totally agree with you. Although I am a tad envious of your TJs bundt cake.....
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03

[mommd]

Wait, Santa Claus was my DAD!!!??? My world no longer makes sense... :)

Great post. :)

[flagger]

However,

It depends on your perspective on what is and what is not controversial. A post how someone's Republican husband was impressed by John Kerry's speech is allowed to continue on without much challenge. Had someone posted that their Republican spouse was not impressed by John Kerry's speech and that their position against him was further solidified would be seen by some as stirring the pot. Well for some of us, posting how someone's husband was impressed can be seen as stirring the pot as well.

Let's take another look. Awhile back someone who had a signature about God being the only way was ridiculed, talked down, etc. Now recently there is someone with the line "Breastfeeding is Bestfeeding" in their signature. (I have no idea who it is as I read the posts and not who posted them). To some, that line implies that the opposite of breastfeeding is WORSTfeeding. It can very easily be seen as a pot stirring signature. You know as well as I do, the pros and cons of breastfeeding versus formula/bottle feeding can become just as headed as any "political" debate.

Some of us do feel that more leeway is given to those posts supporting a more liberal approach to parenting, shopping and politics just because of the apparent leaning of the posters of the board. Espousing one's opinion from a liberal POV is seen as informative; giving it from a conservative POV is seen as pot-stirring.

[mommd]

It was in my signature. In the interest of political correctness, I have removed it, although I don't see anything wrong with it. I think it is just an example of reading more into something than is really there. *I* think that breastfeeding is best, but I don't think people who feed formula are *bad*. Everyone does what is right for them.

I think that's the whole problem with these "controversial" threads. People get so defensive over what they *think* the poster meant, and go into attack mode before realizing that maybe what the person wanted to say didn't come across right in writing.

When did it become against the rules to post your opinion? Every thing we post should be seen as our opinion and not fact, without a disclaimer. I just will never understand why people can't disagree with each other respectfully, without name calling and personal attacks. We are ADULTS for goodness sake.

[Jeanmick]

>Espousing one's opinion from a liberal POV is
>seen as informative; giving it from a conservative POV is seen
>as pot-stirring.

Sorry, but I think postings that are interpreted as "informative" vs. "pot-stirring" are labeled as such due to the way the message is delivered, not due to the content or political leanings of the poster. JHMO.

[murpheyblue2]

Yeah, what she said.

Thanks for saying what many of us were thinking but too inarticulate to post.

[flagger]

>It was in my signature. In the interest of political
>correctness, I have removed it, although I don't see anything
>wrong with it. I think it is just an example of reading more
>into something than is really there. *I* think that
>breastfeeding is best, but I don't think people who feed
>formula are *bad*. Everyone does what is right for them.

Renee,

Like I said I didn't notice WHO posted it just that it was posted. I was merely making a point. I was not laying blame or attacking you personally.

What is the funniest thing about this original post is looking back at the now locked thread. The ones who entered that thread with posts meant to be sarcastic and ridiculing the original posters are the same people who will be first to call someone out as stirring the pot. Quite hypocritical of those who complain about a type of activity to be the ones who engage in the same type of behaviour.

[jasabo]

Ditto to both Flagger's posts. I realize that politics is a potential hotbed for disagreement which can go wrong very quickly, especially when you have so many people "in one room." But that has happened with such seemingly harmless things as people's signature lines. I personally couldn't care less what people have as their signature line - I usually don't even read them. But there are people who are easily offended by many things, and they tend to become rude and sarcastic in their responses when they disagree with a poster - that's the problem I have with all this. Yes, we can remove politics from the "ok to talk about" list, but there will always be something that will cause disagreement. It's not the disagreement that's the problem - it's the way people handle it. I don't understand what's so hard about staying civil. I can't imagine people speak to their coworkers or neighbors the way they've "spoken" to some posters here. We're not in high school. If we'd all just act like adults and treat each other with respect, and IGNORE posts that we perceive as inflammatory if we're not able to be respectful in our response, I really think things would be fine. It's not that hard...like my mother used to tell me quite often - if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all :)

Lisa - mom to 1 yr old twin boys

[Emmas Mom]

Part of the problem too is that you can't tell the persons tone of voice in a post. I mean, exclamation points & words in all capital letters do get some meaning accross, however, it's hard to know for sure if a person is saying something in anger, jest, or with tears in their eyes. Nor do we know a persons personal history that would prompt some posts.

But I agree, if you disagree with someone...that's fine, if someone offends you...ok, it's how you respond that shows the type of person that you are. Blatant sarcasm by any of us is uncalled for. Perhaps it would be better to not respond immediately...take a time out first? ;)

[JLiebCamm]

I understand what you're saying but the bottom line with the post that stirred this all up was that the poster wasn't asking or saying anything controversial. The post was making no judgements on either candidate but simply asking for a place to get more info on something that they liked well enough to spark their interest. A pro-life debate had nothing to do with the question. It would be like me posting that I liked a new book and wanting suggestions for any other books by that author, only to have someone jump into the post and tell me why I should never read another book by that person. And in a more realistic scenario, it would be like a person asking for preferences on formula brands have someone jump in to post that all formula brands are bad. If we could all just use common sense as to what is or isn't appropriate to post we wouldn't continually have these problems!

I like political talk on these boards because my real world friends don't have a lot of interest in it. It bums me out when we can't keep things civil.

[KathyO]

Yay Zen!! Wish I'd said it!! Everyone gripes about the right to exchange political opinions freely, but nobody seems able to change the fact that one way or another, it pretty much inevitably ends in insults, rudeness, and assorted jackanapery. If the kids can't play Scrabble without namecalling, black eyes and tiles flying all over the place, then I think Mom's entitled to put the board away.

KathyO

What's a TJ Bundt cake? And can I get them in Canada? Pregnancy cravings are nothing compared to nursing cravings...

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

I wanted to stay out of this, for I don't have a opinion on the matter surprisingly. I do take some the credit of the Democratic National Convention post not going bad. I started the post, I made it clear to avoid it if you can get upset about politics but I also wasn't asking folks their "bashing" opinion it was worded to get the feel of how folks thought the convention was going. We ranked on some speakers and congratulated some...

That post was not "pot stirring"...and didn't ask anyone to get all up in arms.
I was going to stay out of this but Jean you hit the nail on the head in my views and I just felt I had to support you there!!!!

To ever mention abortion in a subject line the way this recent thread was listed was totally asking for problems from the second I saw the word in the subject line. I didn't follow the thread for I could give a rats behind what anyone here thinks of abortion I know how I feel and nothing anyone says can change my mind.

The Democratic Convention thread and even the thread about the hubby changing and voting democaratic was very very very educational, many sites were mentioned to refer to, many speakers were discussed who I was not fortunate enough to see speak and it was very informative. I didn't think long and hard about posting the thread for to me it was not a confrontational thread...I did think long and hard about how to post it and took the time to post it...

I hated to see one of my dearest BBB board friends (Khakismom) think there was a double standard here in what could be posted...I never looked at it that way but when she posted that I guess that is what matters is that someone amoung us feels that way. I do know if she feels that way I will always be careful of what I say here for she is a friend not a trouble maker in the least and to feel that way must have some merit.

There are many topics that are "pot stirring" and as of late I think we are a huge community have done a great job in not hurting others and trying to tread lightly on those topics.

Neve and Tristan born Feb 25, 2003
***********************************
EDD with #2 March 18, 2005
heartbeat and "looking great" so far
************************************
Traveling in Jan insearch of the rest of our family-adopting in Ukraine
***********

[new_mommy25]

Neve, I love your new signature! I'm thinking about you guys.

[ethansmom]

TJ = Trader Joes. The closest thing you guys have is M&M meat shops. ;-)

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

Thank you sweetie!!!
and your avatar has always made my heart go pitter patter...what a face, and hair...too cute!!!!

Neve and Tristan born Feb 25, 2003
***********************************
EDD with #2 March 18, 2005
heartbeat and "looking great" so far
************************************
Traveling in Jan insearch of the rest of our family-adopting in Ukraine
***********