I need help: Nightwaking, Nursing & CIO (long)

[jec2]

Mamas, I really need some help. I am purely exhausted. I keep waiting for that day to arrive when Finn actually really and truly sleeps through the night and means it. Finn is currently getting up twice/night--once around midnight and then again around 4 a.m. and then finally gets up for the day between 6 and 7 a.m. What is "normal" at this age (13 mos.)

So far, I mostly go in and nurse him and he goes right back to sleep. We have CIO before a few times and while it works, there always seems to be regression. First, after a few weeks of sleeping through the night it's the 4 a.m. wake-up call and then a week or so later he adds the 1 a.m. again so I am eventually back to where I am now.

In the past month he learned to walk, got a tooth, and then had a cold. I have tried to CIO again, but his crying is so much louder now which makes it so hard. Also it is hard because I know that if I just go in and pull out the boob we will all be back to sleep in just a few minutes. Should I just suck it up and know that it (CIO) will work?!

I have tried to send DH in there and that just royally pisses Finn off. The screams are terrible and I eventually have to go in and nurse him. I have tried to just hold him and not sit down in the glider but he doesn't stop crying. He just dives for teh boob.

I need some advice or something to read...anything. My ped. just tells me "well some kids just need to be held at night and nursed. Some don't. One day he will evenutally get it." Ugh! NO! I WANT "THE" ANSWER! LOL!

[octmom]

I am so right there with you! Sean is about the same age as Finn (whose name I love, BTW), we've had a run of colds, several teeth coming in at once, a double ear infection (now gone), thrush, and he's getting closer to walking each day. Nights have been really bad lately. We co-sleep, but it's getting harder and harder to sleep while nursing these days. And the wakings are more frequent-- I've been blaming teething pain this week. Like you, I've tried not whipping out the boob as soon as he stirs, but it's the only way to get sleep!

I have no advice, just sympathy, but I am hoping others may offer some wisdom.

Jerilyn
DS, Sean 10/03

"Baby makes days shorter, nights longer, home happier, and love stronger."

[deenass]

Unforunately CIO is not the panacea some people make it out to be. Yes, for some kids after 2 days, no more waking, and for some after 7 days no more waking, but i think that most people find it's a dance 9and because you are so tired you keep forgetting the order of the steps!)

We did CIO with DS between 13-15 months and it took weeks, not days, not hard crying every night, but some crying every night. When I was at the point that I was falling asleep while he was crying I realized that I needed to stick with it (what kind of mother can sleep through her baby's cries - an EXHAUSTED one!) and I ALWAYS felt better when I woke up the next day, because I was getting more than 2 hours of sleep in a row. Try Weissbluth's book. We went with the "extinction" method (didn't go back in every few minutes, just worked him up more). We did have video monitor so we could see him, but we didn't go into him.

Just so you know, I was BF at that point, including nursing back to sleep, but at about 10 mos my son decided that it was more fun to be awake and nurse than to sleep and nurse ...so he was up for about 2 hours in the middle of the night nursing before falling back to sleep.

[crayonblue]

I wish I had great advice, but I don't. We are right there with you. Lauren is almost 1 yrs. old and she is up 3-4 times per night. Last night was the last straw. I am sick and had a fever and felt absolutely miserable and she nursed at 11pm, 2:15am, 3:30am and then 6am. I told DH that I cannot do this any longer. Tonight is CIO night. I hope Lauren is a 3 day and then no more crying baby, but I'm not so sure.

If you find something that works, let us know. This is positively the most frustrating thing I have ever dealt with.

If one more person tells me their 6 week old is sleeping through the night, I am going to slap them. Not really, but I would like to!!!! I am having a hard time being happy for my friends who have little sleepers!

[jbowman]

Big hugs, Juliet! Although Ellie sleeps through the night, she is an early waker and it took her until 7 months to get there (as Lana said, I hate it when people tell me about what a great sleeper their child is--I mean, really I'm happy for them, but why not my child, LOL???). And Ellie is still a horrible napper--actually she's a non-napper.

When he gets up at midnight and 4, is it full-blown crying or just fussing? Can you allow him to fuss for a few minutes and see if he goes to sleep? I am sure that I am not telling you something you don't know, but I thought I'd try.

And, FWIW, there is occasional "regression" with Ellie--I know she's younger than Finn, but I think that's normal.

Good luck!! Sorry that you are going through this.

[chlobo]

I am so right there. DD is just over a year old. In the past month she's learned to walk, gotten teeth & had 2 colds. It seems like she'll have 2 nights of good sleep in a row and then there's like 6 nights of terrible sleep. She's up anywhere from 2-4 time/night. I'll nurse her usually once and then my DH will do a tour of duty. A few nights ago she wouldn't sleep at all unless one of us was holding her. And then she was up playing for 2 hrs in the middle of the night. It's tough. We're just about to do CIO but when we first started to try, it turns out she had a cold and my husband said she looked at him likehe was deserting her. Broke his heart.

Anyhow, if anyone has success, let me know.

[nwaddellr]

I had good luck with a white noise machine. When he's healthy and not teething, my DS will now sleep through the night. He's regressed back to getting up twice a night (molars), but for a while there we had 7-4:30 sleeping (and no CIO). Just another option!

[papal]

Hey Jec.. first of all, this sleep thing.. what the heck? why didn't somebody inform us that this would be the toughest test of our sanity?!

What time does Finn go to sleep at night? My own 'rule' is that if it has been more than 8-10 hours, then i give milk. Otherwise NO.
How long has Finny slept at a stretch? Average time (when he did sleep without waking)?
I really think you can CIO the midnight nursing. Like Angie's Noah, he might just be testing his boundaries? I don't know... it seems like he shouldn't be hungry. Also with the CIO (except if they are sick), consistency is the key i think.. if he knows that one day you will come in and nurse him, he will try every day to achieve that.. they are smart little boogers. We do give Leela her sippy of milk at 4am.. but that is because her last food was at 6pm.. but nothing before that. She sometimes wakes up and cries but she goes back to sleep if ignored. Hang in there girlie. I wish one solution worked for every kid but it doesn't. I can only imagine how frustrating it must me.
Sending hugs and lotsa love your way. Please Sleep Gods, help my friend Juliet out. I implore you.

[aliceinwonderland]

no magic words, just sympathy. My son, while much younger, has the same exact schedule (12, 3 or 4, then 6am for good), and I am constantly exhausted as well...I have some help thse days (my mom is here) and I feel like a human being again...

[jec2]

this honestly IS one of the toughest thing about being a mommy. It truly is.

He goes to bed about 7:30. I nurse him, put him down awake and he usually goes right to sleep or babbles for a little then falls to sleep.

So, at the 1 a.m. waking he has been asleep for about 5.5 hours.

I think I might try to CIO at that one starting tonight.

Tell me about giving Leela a sippy at 4 a.m. Is it BM or cow's milk? does she drink it? (dumb question, but Finn mostly refuses to drink milk out of a sippy :( ) How do you do it? Do you go just hand it to her and then scadaddle back to bed? Does she go back to sleep?

I am so frustrated because I have had back to back colds in the past 3.5 weeks! Ugh! I am so tired. I need sleep! Come on sleep gods, I am a good person.

[jec2]

I want you all to know that if i find the magic answer, I will bottle and co-op it all to you via a Yahoo Group! :) LOL!

[pritchettzoo]

There are some older threads on nightweaning in the Feeding Forum. I'll look for the threads and add them in here. Sleep-deprivation SUCKS.

Here you go:
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=86&topic_id=5242&mode=full
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=86&topic_id=6530&mode=full

Anna
Mama to Gracie (Sept '03)

[s_gosney]

Can you put me on the list for that one please?!? If it makes you feel any better, Kylee still can't/won't put herself to sleep. We've never tried CIO b/c 1. she sleeps with us still, and 2. she throws up when she cries hard. :(
I hope Finn sleeps well tonight! And you too, of course!

[lmintzer]

Hi Juliet. You have my utmost sympathy on this one. I'm still up with Joshua too. However, it's typically only once/night which is a major improvement over 2+ months ago when he partially co-slept and was up every 1-2 hours.

Right now, on our best nights, he goes to sleep on his own at 7:30 and gets up to eat at 3:30 or 4:00 a.m. and then goes back until 6:30. Last night after his party, he was all screwed up again and was up 3 times. Nursing is the best way to get him back to sleep as well, and he definitely seems hungry by 3:30 a.m., despite what people say ("Your baby shouldn't need to eat. He's big enough. Blah blah blah").

We did do CIO at 10 months. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. Before we started, we really worked hard to establish a bedtime routine, had him play in his room during the day to help him view it as a place where positive things happen, and work really hard to make sure he was getting good naps (that even meant going in to "help" him through lightening of his sleep cycles which served to extend some of the 45 min. naps into 60-90 minute naps). Once we started CIO, he cried for 30 minutes for two nights. We checked in on him after 5 and then 10 more minutes. On the third night, he cried only 5 minutes, and after that, for roughly 2-3 minutes for a week or so (these nights weren't bad--really, it was just protest crying at this point). The worst part was a crying session in the middle of the night that lasted a long, long time. This happened a total of two times. Neither was a feeding time (I was doing night weaning with pre-emptive feeds), so we let him go. I actually feel bad about this one, because he cried on and off for a good long time.

Even though I've never cut out the last feeding (I haven't tried too hard, really), he's doing much, much better. He goes to sleep very peacefully and truly seems to like being in his crib. He is very comfortable with our routine, too (pajamas, nursing in a comfy chair in our bedroom, then into his room where we're joined by dh and big brother for Good Night Moon and a song). Last, it's into his crib with his lovey blankie. We always turn on his white noise and his nightlight. He looks happy and smiles and "participates" when we start Good Night Moon.

Hope our story helps a little. Feel free to e-mail me for more details or suggestions. I still am tired, but at least I know we're getting somewhere. I'm sure Finn will move in that direction too. Teething and illness are certainly not helpful.

[lmintzer]

Oh, I forgot to add--you may want to try a "pre-emptive strike" on that 1:00 a.m. feeding. Go in and "dream feed" him at a set time (say, 12:45 if he's always up at 1:00). You won't really even wake him doing so. He'll probably just eat in his sleep. Feed for the amount of time he usually eats on night one (say, 10 minutes, if that's how long a night feed typically is). Then, cut down by 2 minutes each night. You may want to stop at 4 minutes so not to frustrate him with a 2 minute feed. If that's too fast, you can cut down by 1 minute per night. We did this to eliminate Joshua's early (10:30 p.m.) feed that I knew he couldn't really need. I haven't tried it with the 4:00 a.m. feed. Well, I tried for night or two, but just couldn't bring myself to set an alarm, lol.

[hez]

Throw me on the list, too :)

It would be nice if DS'd just go back to the once-a-night wakings we had before these last few teeth and his last ear infection!

Feeling empathy!

[LucyG]

I feel your pain, Juliet! DD didn't sleep through the night consistently until she was 18 months old. We finally did CIO, and it took two nights. She cried about 20 minutes the first night (at 2:00 a.m.), and 10 minutes the second night. Prior to that, she woke up at least once per night to nurse. I started back to teaching in August, and I just could not handle the exhaustion anymore. We knew she was old enough, secure enough, and well-fed enough, so we did the CIO. In retrospect, I think I would have done it sooner if I'd known it would work so well for us. Good luck to you!


http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif[/img][/url]
20 months and counting!

[shishamo]

This is what I tried and it did work for me.

http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-ppsleep/message.asp?msg=6020.1

It wasn't easy, but at the end, it did work for me. She was 15-18months old at that time). She's 2 and a half now, and she sleeps 10 hours at night,so it does get better.

[sntm]

The natural (meaning without outside "influence") mean age for sleeping through the night is around 2 1/2.

So, one answer is that yes, this is totally normal, and he will outgrow this on his own. Some babies are more vocal about expressing their needs, and won't be suppressed by CIO -- the fact that stressors (teething, milestones, sickness) affect him suggest that he is one that will never fully respond to it. He knows what he needs, and that is to be held and/or nursed.

Lisa's advice on dream feeding is excellent. If you think he truly is not really hungry, alternatives to CIO would be going in to rock him but not nursing. Yes, he may cry, but there is worlds of difference between crying while having someone you love hold you and rock you and murmur soothing things, and crying alone. If he is hungry, feed him and go back to sleep! You are doing the right thing by meeting his needs!

Good luck!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_gold_12m.gif[/img][/url]
Breastfeeding 17 months and counting

[cuca_]

My DD is not a great sleeper (to put it mildly) and used to take a sippy cup of milk once during the night until about 14 mos. At that age she seemed to not need it anymore, unfortunately this does not mean that she stopped waking up. At least in our case, though, it was easy to distinguish between hunger and need to be comforted. (Different cries).

I wanted to share our experience with CIO. As Shannon mentioned, it does not work with every baby, and my DD is proof. We tried it twice,
and ended up with a baby that hated her crib. I think we did it for about 4 days each time, and while DD would fall asleep after crying, whenever she woke up and realized that she was in the crib she would become hysterical. We finally switched her to a bed about 2 weeks ago, and while she still wakes up, she is rarely upset when she does.

I am not against CIO (although I would not try it with a young baby), but unfortunately it did not work for us, and in the end caused more problems. Just wanted to share our experience with you. Unfortunately I think your pediatrician might be right. However, if you do find a solution, please share it!!

HTH

Carmen
DD May 2003
#2 expected in May 2005!

[jec2]

Oh, man, don't tell me that! I thought it was any day now that I would rounding the corner to long nights of blissful sleep!

I did let him CIO at 1 a.m. last night and he only cried for a few minutes--maybe 5. At 4:30, however, after about 5 minutes he was really screaching and I just knew I had to go in there and nurse/rock him so I did. It is hard trying to know when to let him do it on his own and when he needs me. But, you are right that he knows what he needs. Exactly what my Ped. says and while I do want to hear it, it's hard at 2 am. when you are so exhausted and dh is next to me snoozing away! LOL!

[sntm]

I know, it's not easy to hear! That's from research from a cultural anthropologist. On the other hand, sometimes it's good to hear. Once you accept it as something that just IS, then you feel less of a need to struggle against it. It's like decades ago when parents were tearing their hair out because they couldn't get their two-week old to swallow scrambled eggs -- now you know why!

Will your DH go bring him to you?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_gold_12m.gif[/img][/url]
Breastfeeding 17 months and counting

[psophia17]

Some possibly relevant info for you about the nightwaking - DS has always made a little noise at night once he started sleeping through. He also does this with naps during the day. When I hear him start to fuss I wait - if it keeps up longer than 3 minutes, I go check on him, and if it stops I don't. Sometimes it quiets down a bit by 3 minutes, and then I wait some more to see if he'll settle himself down. Other times it escalates faster than 3 minutes and I know to go to the rescue sooner rather than later.

I think that you're doing great if the 1am CIO worked all the way until 4:30 - that's tons of progress. Just think, now you know that at 1am he's waking up out of habit, not out of necessity - yay! By 4:30 he's probably really hungry, since he's not getting the 1am feed anymore. It'll take some time, but he'll get used to it, and then you will get to sleep more!

Follow his cues, but also pay attention to your needs - if you're so exhausted you can't function, that's not doing anyone any good.

[tippy]

Wow,

I feel like I could have written your post. Especially the part about sending dh in instead! We did use Ferber when AJ was 11 months old. Since he didn't know how to self sooth, he was basically waking up every two hours and wanting to nurse to go back to sleep I let him fall asleep on my my breast earlier on just so I could get some sleep and it is what he ended up needing. I was one of those mothers who swore up and down I WOULD NEVER in a million years use Ferber or let my child CIO. That was before I was a walking zombie. The worst part of all was that ds never really seemed rested. He would wake in the morning and seem tired for the rest of the day, so neither of us was getting "restful" sleep. I found Ferber’s book to be very informative and it really helped me to understand the importance of routine, making sure I put ds down before he "appeared" tired, and learning about circadian (?) rhythms. It was one of the hardest things I ever did (listening to my baby cry) and I actually had dh do most of the "dirty work" because I had to leave the apt at times. It took a while but it was worth it in the long run. He still wakes up on occasion during the night and can usually put himself to sleep with his music (I have the music box portion of Symphony in Motion in his crib). I still need to go in and nurse him occasionally but it is usually just once during the nights he wakes up. Good luck with whatever you try.

Teva
Mom to AJ born 1-8-03