UPDATE & More questions (Was: Please Help -- Two CIO Questions)

[AvasMama]

Update:
Why isn't this working for us? Tonight is night four and I am seeing no improvement. I have stayed strong and not gone to get her, but it is making me miserable! I thought after three nights it would get better? Please tell me what I am doing wrong! Here's what's happened so far:

Night 1 was what I expected: She cried full-force for a little over an hour. When she woke up after that, she'd cry for a few min and go back to sleep.

Night 2 was rough as I think she was really overtired: She cried on and off for for three hours (!), nursed at 10 (her normal time to eat), then went to sleep with only minimal crying

Night 3 was horrible: It started out well. She only cried on and off for about 30 min., then fell asleep (laying down this time!). However, she woke up at 10 to eat and then cried for two solid hours before falling asleep.

Night 4 (tonight): She has been crying for over an hour now.

What am I doing wrong? I don't want to undo any small progress we have made by going to her now, but I didn't think it would take this long.

Sorry this is so long. Thank you for reading this far :)

-------------------------------
We are doing CIO with Ava. I debated it for awhile and tried other things first, and I feel that this is the best thing for her. I know others may disagree, but I am comfortable with this decision. However, I want to make sure I am not doing something wrong as we are having a couple of issues.

Sitting Up: She will NOT lay down! She cried for an hour last night (day 1) and finally fell asleep sitting up. This is of course not a comfortable way to sleep so she kept waking herself up, crying for a few minutes, then falling back to sleep. The most she would stay sleep was a few hours. Will she eventually figure out how to lay down?

Naps: Weissbluth says to only let her cry for an hour at naptime, so that is what I did. Well, she cried through both her naptimes yesterday and both today. She, of course, is then exhausted and will fall asleep an hour or so later while playing. If I try to move her to her crib, she wakes up right away, sits up (see above!), and cries. I don't get how she will learn to nap this way. She has to realize that we will come get her eventually and I think she's just waiting us out.

FWIW, she was a champion napper until a few weeks ago. She'd fall asleep on her own and everything, but then she got an ear infection and flat out refused to sleep in her crib. She's all better now, but the naps and bedtime are still a mess.

Thanks for any advice!
Robyn & Ava

[papal]

Urrgh. Sorry you are having sleep troubles Robyn. So frustrating!

To answer your question.. here is what i think:
1. Yes, she will learn to lie down and sleep.

2. Naps. This I am not sure of. Are you sure she is tired and wants to nap? I am thinking, that once you have night CIO figured out, she will automatically understand how to nap when put in the crib. For example, now if I put Leela down for a nap and she cries for more than a couple of mins, she comes out. That means she is not tired. When she learnt to sleep at night, she learnt to sleep in the day. So, if I were you, I would just do night CIO for now. Just my opinion of course!

Good luck girlie... this sleep thing is so frustrating. I think we should all contribute sleep stories and write a book.

[AvasMama]

Thanks for your sympathy. It's so frustrating! I hate how bedtime and naps have become so stressful for Ava and that is why we decided to go this route. I figure a couple of days of stress is worth avoiding months/years of fearing bedtime. Plus, her not sleeping was causing me to become overtired and screw up at work and was creating tension between me and DH.

I am pretty sure Ava is tired when we try to get her to nap. She has fairly clear "sleep signs". The only alternative is for me to lay down with her until she falls asleep and then let her sleep in my bed. Otherwise she simply will not nap! What you say makes sense -- once she learns how to go to sleep, it will work for naps and bedtime. I hope it works that way for us!

Robyn & Ava

[kthomp]

Robyn,

I agree with Rashmi, once you get the night time deal worked out, the naps will follow. If she falls asleep while playing, is it possible to leave her there until she wakes up? Only if she is in a safe place of course. Also, after a few days, I bet she will be so tired that napping will improve.

Hugs to you. I know this can be a hard time. It will get better and you'll have a great sleeper soon!

[tarahsolazy]

I was a die-hard no CIO person, until the hourly nightwakings got to be too much. And Rashmi did it, so I had to do it too! Really, when DS figured it out (only one night, 29 minutes of on and off crying), he really figured it out. He sleeps for 12-13 hrs, waking once to nurse. He goes down for naps with only a whimper, but he doesn't nap long, never has. I'd say see what the next few nights bring.

[deenass]

We did CIO at night, but it never worked during the day, my son would just cry and never nap. Somehow I was able to deal with the crying at night (when my husband was around) but not during the day when we were alone.

I will admit, that until 18 mos I nursed DS down for naps and for the past few months (since nursing stopped working) I have resorted to driving him in the car unitl he falls asleep. But he goes to bed at night quite peacefully.

[crayonblue]

"And Rashmi did it, so I had to do it too!"

Ha! Ha! I wonder how many things Rashmi is responsible for on these boards! After hearing that Rashmi let Leela CIO, I decided that it must not be too bad of a thing to do. :)

I am very thankful that we did do CIO. We went from waking every couple of hours all night long to waking once per night. That is MUCH better. We are all looking less like zombies every day.

[papal]

:). Just to clarify.. I don't advocate CIO to everyone in the whole world! We went through very very tough nights (like Tarah and Lana) and had to resort to CIO. I think Robyn and Ava are going through the same thing now.
It was something that Nita said to me once that really stuck in my head. She told me that we are not doing CIO just for us, we are doing it to help Leela too. Waking up every 2-3 hours is not a very restful sleep, especially when they are capable of sleeping at night (ie. they are not hungry/wet/cold etc etc). Once I knew I was doing it for my daughter, that gave me strength and courage to try CIO. And yes, we are a CIO success story here too. Another thing, it gets much easier with the sleep once they start walking. Now she is too tired by the time bed-time comes around. She points to her crib, she signs SLEEP and literally leaps into the crib.

[lrucci]

Robyn,

We ended up doing CIO too for a few nights. Naps were never a problem, so I only had to deal with it at night. It was rough, so I can definitely sympathize with what you are going through. We did get through it, and there are still some nights when she cries herself to sleep - only about 5 minutes.

Sorry, but I had to laugh when I read about the sleeping sitting up. Kyleigh used to fall asleep like that all the time (and in various other positions that look totally uncomfortable). She eventually started to lay back down again.

I was also wondering if Ava was tired enough when you put her down for naps. When we put Kyleigh down for a nap and she isn't sleepy, she just cries and cries. In that case, she comes out and I try her again in a little bit. But you said Ava is tired, so I hope she gets the hangs of it soon.

Hang in there, it will get better!


Lisa
Mom to Kyleigh 7/19/03

[psophia17]

ITA - we did this with DS. First we got him to sleep in the crib on his own, once this was established, napping kind of went by itself. At night, he would CIO, during naptimes, he would just cry.

[AdoptChina]

I wouldn't worry about the sitting up...she'll stop that soon Id think lol

As far as naps, can you try and make them a little later maybe? I know with Connor that if I try to put him to bed (nap or night) before he is ready he freaks out.....if he is truly tired enough, the most he cries is 1-2 minutes

[AvasMama]

You and Nita put it really well. The fact that Ava was so stressed about sleeping and wasn't getting a good night's sleep is what made the decision for me. The negative effects on me, on my work, and on my relationship with DH have been going on for a couple months, but it wasn't until I realized how much CIO could help Ava that I decided to do it.

Last night didn't go so well. She cried on and off from 7:30 to 10, then I went in and got her, nursed her, and put her back to bed. She cried for maybe 10 min. and went to sleep until 2. Then she nursed again and slept until 6:30. I think she was just so overtired from not napping yesterday. Today I am not going to let her CIO for naps so she is better rested for tonight and hope that like Rashmi says, she will figure out sleeping during the day once she gets it at night.

I am so glad to hear all your success stories! If after this Ava is happier about sleeping, it will have been completely worth it!

Robyn & Ava

[KrisM]

No advice, really. How old is Ava? We started doing a little CIO 2 nights ago, as DS started getting up every 1.5 hours again. I decided I'd feed him if it had been 3 hours or more. So, he ate at 11, woke at 1, cried for about 20 minutes, woke at 2:30 and ate, woke at 4 and cried for 16 minutes, woke at 5:30 and ate, woke for the day at 7. It wasn't too bad.

He naps and goes down for bed beautifully with no crying or anything. It's just all the wakings. I'm thinking we'd be better off doing a feed at 10 or 11, when he wakes up, and then doing CIO until 6AM. It seems like he'd be confused when he gets fed sometimes, but not others. He's over 7 months and barely eats ate night, so I don't think he needs that 2AM feed.

Please keep us updated on how it goes.

[AvasMama]

Kris,
Ava will be 11 months next week. She also wants to be fed every three hours or so at night and I know she doesn't need to eat that often anymore. We'll tackle that once we get her sleeping in her crib. What I did the past two nights was go to her if she cried more than 5-10 minutes when she woke up. Most times she went right back to sleep. At 2 she cried a lot and since it had been 4 hours since she nursed, I went in and fed her. Then she slept until 6:30.

Even though last night didn't go too smoothly, she is a lot happier today! She only cried for about 3 min. at her morning nap and then fell asleep on her own (sitting up again!). She only slept about 45 min, but it was a huge improvement over the last two days of NO naps! I am feeling hopeful that CIO will work for us.

Robyn & Ava

[crayonblue]

I am amazed that Ava can sleep sitting up! I don't really know anything to tell you about that.

Naps for us got much, much better once sleeping at night got better. Lauren was waking up every 2-3 hours all night and I was a disaster. So tired I could barely make it through the day. So, we let her cry one night. She cried for 2 hours. The next night she slept 12 hours straight. Now, she goes to bed around 7pm, I get her up and feed her around 11 or 12 and then she sleeps until 7 or 8am. We found that she couldn't make it 12 hours without being fed (except for that first night!), so I would rather feed her around 11pm than 2 in the morning.

After we got nights squared away, Lauren started taking one three hour nap per day. Usually around 11 or 12 to 2 or 3pm.

Good luck and keep asking questions. I definitely felt better about doing CIO knowing other moms here had been through it.

[ncmommy]

Ugghh! I remember those days! Those nasty ear infections can really mess up the whole sleep schedule. I remmeber it used to take DS weeks to get back on track. Remember that ear infections can often come back...for DS his only symptom was often not wanting to go to sleep!

Just one thing to consider...I found that DS usually slept better at night if I did everything in my power to make sure that he got a nap during the day. (Yes...that often meant rocking him to sleep with a bottle..the big no no!). But, I'm telling you, it really helped make things easier for all of us at night. I agree with the girls who suggest you only CIO at night until you have some success.

Also, keep in mind that little ones often adjust their naps as they get older. Looking back, I think I sometimes had trouble getting DS to nap because I was trying to stick to a nap schedule he had started to grow out of. He moved his naps around for a while until he finally only needed one.

Just know that one day YOU WILL be able to sleep all night again someday...I know it is frustating! Hang in there!

Robin

[KrisM]

Robyn,

That sounds like what I am trying to do. At 4 ish this morning, he started crying and I went in a 5 min. He continued to cry and I was going to go in at 10 min. I was sitting on the edge of the bed and everything, when his cries turned into talking to himself and then he was asleep. It was only for 1.5 hours, but hey, it was asleep.

I'm glad Ava's happier today. I can't imagine sleeping sitting up though! It must look pretty funny :).

[mudder17]

Okay, I'm about to call it a night, so I haven't read the other responses very carefully. But I wanted to respond to your e-mail since I've been through this myself. In fact, if you want some encouragement, read my sleep log of the early days and know that even with a stubborn baby (mine), it does eventually work:

http://www.clairina.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7

FWIW, she now generally goes to sleep very easily and when she doesn't, it's usually because she's overtired. Also, after lots of trial and error, we finally figured out that she doesn't need a third afternoon nap. Rather, she needs an early bed time (~5:00). It's what ended up working for her.

Okay, so now for some specific responses:

Sitting up: She will definitely figure out how to go back down. When Kaya first learned how to do this on her own, there were definitely naps when she would sleep sitting up or lying down with her butt in the air or partially sitting, etc. No, it didn't look comfortable and yes, she did wake herself up, but she did eventually figure out how to get more comfortable on her own.

When I started the sleep training (and you can sort of see this from my logs), I concentrated on nights, just so she could learn how to put herself to sleep. The problem with trying to do both at the same time (and my cousin and her pede--who has 6 children--did successfully do both at the same time and it took 2 days total, but their children were also older) is that if they're not sleeping well during the day, they're going to have that much more difficult time at night! So my LC just encouraged us to help them sleep as much as possible during the day, and CIO at night only. Now, when I put her down for a nap and she's not ready to go down, she'll just play in her crib. After about an hour, if she's not asleep, or she calls for me, I'll take her out and try again later. But I can't remember her ever crying for an hour straight during a nap. She did cry off and on over the course of an hour in the early days, but never like it was when she was complaining at night in the early days.

Anyway, the other thing is that you can sort of tell by their cry whether there's something wrong or if they're just unhappy at being left in their crib. If their cry is long and drawn out and constant the entire time, then it could be teething, illness, etc. But if they cry, even scream, but then sort of go, eh, eh, eh, and then wind back up and down, that's what my LC calls a winding down cry. Now, as you can see from my early logs, it can last for hours, but it really is a winding down cry.

And while she's still not a champion napper, learning how to sleep at night really did teach her to sleep in her crib period. So the naps did eventually get easier. The trick was getting the nights under control first.

Good luck and happy sleepy vibes!

Eileen

Mother of Beautiful Kaya, www.chemicalgraphics.com/kaya
http://www.babysfirstsite.org/newtickers/ticker/16994.birthday.png

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amber_9m.gif Breastfed 9 months and counting

[CBB]

Robyn, we are doing CIO with DD. We started on 11/30. I totally understand how you feel: howcome it takes others only 3 nights? It's day 10 for us, we are progressing slowly. We tried CIO initially when DD was around 6.5mo. It worked for a few nights. Then we went to China for 2wks. With the jet-lag, her schedule was totally screwed up. Even after the jet-lag resolved, she would wake up every 1.5hr crying. So we started CIO again. Since I work late hrs, I'm not always there to put DD to bed. The 4th night, I happened to be off and put DD to bed. She cried for 2hrs. We finally went in, found DD had pulled herself up and was standing up holding the crib gate crying(1st time she pulled herself up). I ended up nursing her to sleep that night. Since then I found DD cries longer when ever I'm at home, I think because she knows I can nurse her. So now I just don't go in at all. DD still cries about 15-20min when we first put her down. I don't know what we are doing wrong, but I just keep telling myself to be consistant. CIO has definitely helped the night waking -- she went from waking every 1.5hr to now once, sometimes not at all. I can't wait until the night when she goes down by herself w/o a whimp. I agree with others about not doing CIO for the naps. I just think that's too much crying for the day. When we did that for the 1st time, DD was totally traumatized. She also didn't nap all day and was so overtired and scared that she would not let us leave her side or put her down.

Best of luck to you and keep us posted.

[peasprout]

How funny,...I can here to post the very same question!! DS (7 months) is crying in his crib right now and it's driving me NUTS!!!!! He will go on for hours! He usually sleeps well at night and will only cry for about 5 minutes, but his naps are horrible,...he will cry off an on for the entire length of his nap. The only way to stop him is to breastfeed and I don't want him falling asleep that way all the time. I decided to CIO because I have a two year old and really don't have the free hands or time to sit there and rock him to sleep. Like you I don't want to mess up any progress I may have made by picking him up, but it's really really hard to listen to it for so long! Oh why oh why can't he just SLEEP!! Sorry, no advice, just sympathy. I'm right there with ya!

[AvasMama]

She is in there crying right now (it's 2:45 am), and she has been crying since 2. She cried from 7:30 to 8:45, 10-11 and now this. I really don't think I can take it much longer. I am still convinced that CIO is ultimately the best thing for her, but I really think I must be doing something wrong :(
Robyn & Ava

[squimp]

Hi Robyn - I feel your pain and frustration. We struggled with CIO a while back, and ended up modifying the strict CIO approach that is one of Weissbluth's handful of options.

It sounds like you have three goals - for Ava to sleep in her crib, to go to sleep on her own and to sleep through the night. Is this right? If so, I wonder if this is a too much for her to handle at one time. You might consider working on one "project" at a time.

That's what we did. We transitioned to the crib for safety reasons at 9 months (didn't want her to fall out of our bed). She HATED the crib at first. (but, it's so pretty!) We started with naps, and I nursed her to sleep or her sitter rocked her to sleep every time. It never takes more than 15 minutes, and I think that's fine. Man that rocking chair has been a lifesaver. Once DD became comfortable in the crib, we started putting her down when she's ALMOST asleep. I nurse her on both sides, then put her down for the night. She usually doesn't cry, just rolls over and goes to sleep. If she does cry, she's sleepy, her cries are weak, and she never cries for more than 5 minutes.

A resource for night feedings and family bed that others here recommended: http://www.drjaygordon.com/ap/sleep.htm

Other things that have helped: regular naptimes (2-4 pm), a "regular" bedtime (8:30 pm) and a short but consistent bedtime routine.

What do I know! I'm just making this up as I go along :). But I do think that you have to allow for a baby's individual personality. I belive that some form of CIO can work, but I can't imagine that a sleep formula will work for all babies. If you do stick with the CIO, know that you're doing it so she'll sleep better eventually. It's for her own good, and you should not feel bad about it.

[AvasMama]

Hi,
Thanks for your sympathy and advice! Right now I just want Ava to go to sleep on her own in her crib. The night wakings I can deal with for now. She has been sleeping in her crib since she was about 3 1/2 months old, so it is not unfamiliar to her. I used to be able to put her down when she was sleepy and she would sleep just fine. But then something changed and that didn't work anymore. Then I had to lay down with her to get her to sleep and then I could put her in her crib. A few weeks ago, even that wouldn't work. Same for naps, for the longest time I could just lay her down at naptime and she would go to sleep on her own. Then that stopped, but DH could hold her and then put her down and she would sleep. Now, nothing works except me laying down with her.

The problem now is that she absolutely does NOT want to sleep in her crib at all. If she is asleep and I lay her down in it, she instantly wakes up and screams. I have made sure that her room isn't too hot or too cold, that she is dressed warmly, that her crib is as comfy as possible, etc.

For now, I am just trying to keep her as well rested during the day as I can, and I am going to continue with CIO at night and hope it improves soon!

Robyn & Ava

[squimp]

I hope it improves, too, and I sure it will.

OK, one last little thing - do you put Ava on her back or her side in the crib? Sophia hates being put down on her back in the crib - I have to put her on her side or she startles and cries. Also, I hear that ear infections hurt most when they're lying on their back, so she may be remembering that. Just a thought.

[AvasMama]

I put her on her side. She will instantly roll to her stomach and sit up. That is a big part of the problem.

She is sleeping now, thankfully, and has been for about three hours -- she's in my bed, not hers, but at least she is getting a good nap and catching up on some sleep before we try again tonight.

Thanks so much for your support! It really helps to hear from mamas who've been there!
Robyn & Ava

[californiagirl]

Maybe some other variant of CIO would work better for you and Ava? One where you go in and soothe her at intervals?

Under our current sleep-training theory, if I put Opal in her hammock and she wakes up and screams, I sit next to the hammock with a hand on her and say "It's time to go to sleep", and lay her down if she actually tries to climb out. I've done this twice in four days
(day two she went into the hammock half-asleep without complaining, day four she fell asleep nursing and didn't even stir). The first time it took 20 minutes, the second it took 15 -- this is not as good as training her to sleep with me lying next to her, which took 20 minutes of screaming once and 5 minutes once, and now if we do the bedtime routine and I nurse her and she's perky and utterly awake, we lie on the bed and it takes about 15 minutes for her to stop trying to play and then she's half-asleep baby ready to be moved to the hammock. Yeah, I know this isn't how you're supposed to do it, but it's real progress for us, and it's getting me what I want, which is a baby I can put to sleep without actual effort on my part (I may be there, but I'm not singing, rocking, walking her in the cool night air...) in a known amount of time at a predictable hour without comfort-nursing. Once we get this routine down, I may try moving her into the hammock more awake, or I may just wait until she moves out of the hammock. I think of it as the "some-cry" method. She howls, but she's never alone.

You might also try daycare's trick, which I admit to just starting to try at work -- they put a giant stuffed puppy on top of her, so she doesn't feel so alone, and then she doesn't wake up when you stop touching her. We now have "nap moose" who was $15 at Cost Plus. She's delighted by him, so even if he doesn't help her nap, I think we'll get our $15 worth out of him.

[CBB]

DD does the rolling and sitting up thing too. Robyn, I can totally feel your pain. Last night, day 10 of CIO, DD initially only cried for less than 10min. Then she woke up 30min later, cried for another 20min. DH went in found her sitting up. He held her for a little while then put her down. He watched as she played with her mirror in the crib and quietly sneaked out the room. DD actually fell asleep on her own playing and slept until 5am.

I think your DD and mine have the same separation anxiety issue. I don't know if it's a good idea, but did you try leaving Ava with her favorite toy so she won't feel lonely? Same as you, we want DD to be able to fall asleep on her own. Also, do you have a bedtime routine, like bath, book, then sleep?

Is Ava taking good solid? I try to make sure DD eats enough solid during her last meal. I read somewhere (I think Weissbluth) that at this age, babies shouldn't need to eat at night. I initially thought that since DD is on the small side (25%), she would need to eat at night. But then I found that she only nurse for a short while at night. So during the last 10days of CIO, I weaned her off night nursing. Sounds like Ava's nursing at night for comfort also. It's hard because it's so easy to just nurse and they are fast asleep. I think you just have to hold yourself down and not go in at night. Otherwise she's not learning to self sooth back to sleep.

Robyn, I firmly believe that CIO will work. It may take longer for some babies like ours, but eventually they will learn to fall sleep on their own and sleep through the night. Just be persistant.

[AvasMama]

Oh, we have a routine, we have loveys, she even has a book (a soft fabric one) that she likes to have in bed with her. After thinking a lot about it and reading everything I can find, I am convinced that her biggest problem the past few nights has been extreme overtiredness. She took a three-hour nap today, so I am hopeful tonight will go better. I also bought a video monitor so I don't go crazy wondering if she's OK. That will help me, at least!

I like the idea of the "nap puppy/moose" posted below. She has a hippo that might work well for this purpose.

I don't know what to do about the night nursing. She is a good eater, but doesn't always eat a lot, so I am hesitant to let her cry if she could be hungry. I do wait a few minutes before getting her in case she goes back to sleep, which she does sometimes.

Thanks!!
Robyn & Ava