Gathering CIO wisdom...

[aliceinwonderland]

Alas, the day has come...This will be hard. I already feel guilty about some things, add one more to the mix. We respond to Erik at his first little moan, which I think now makes him wake up every hour promptly, whether he needs something or not...

It does not help that DH is totally against me, Erik has him wrapped around his finger...I tried doing a modified version tonight, and I swear DH was about to start wailing himself...Erik heard us talking outside the door to his room, and I found him almost standing up, holding on to the crib bars. I calmed him down(I guess we did not start tonight afterall), and then he grabbed hold to my hand and would not let go. Horrors.

How many times should he nurse on a CIO schedule at 8 months+ now? I think the book said 12 and 4, but I can never keep the ages straight...Is it a problem his crib is in our bedroom? It has to be for now, my parents have the spare room...

[StaceyKim]

You and DH NEED to be on the same page about CIO or it will not work.

DS should be able to sleep without any feedings in the middle of the night.

You might want to get Dr. Ferbers book if you haven't already. It tells you exactly what you need to do. IMO, don't do a modified version...but first your DH needs to support you.

[aliceinwonderland]

oh, we need to ferber-ize him?? (LOL, reference from Meet the Faukers or whatever the name of that movie is...DH will die!

(thanks for the advice. this is not for the faint of heart. No nursing at all, huh?? *removes attached baby from breast*

[StaceyKim]

]]]]we need to ferber-ize him??]]]]]
YES!

it isnt easy but you will be so happy w results!
also you will teach ds to fall alseep on his own-A GREAT THING FOR HIM
yes, no nursing at night anymore

ETA: i would start cutting down the nursing at night until you can eliminate it completely. i personally was able to do it cold turkey because once DD fell asleep on her own she didn't wake up till the morning.

[Rachels]

Ferber works for some babies and not for others. Some babies do well with sleep training and others just don't. You and DH need to come to concensus about what you want to do. If you've been responding to all his cues and you suddenly stop, that will be very distressing for him. Ferber is actually a gentler approach than what you're talking about. The gentlest I've seen is here:
http://drjaygordon.com/ap/sleep.htm.

It's geared for cosleeping families but could easily be adapted. But I disagree that it's obvious that he doesn't need to nurse at all during the night. Many babies are not ready to give up night feedings at eight months old.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_sapphire_24m.gif Two years and counting!

[marit]

I definitely agree with first post about you and DH having to agree on this. When your child id crying and you don't respond you feel like screaming inside. What you need to do is hold hands and talk it through, reminding your self that you are doing the right thing, not having someone talking in your ear that you're a horrible person to do it.

Get the CIO book: "Healthy sleep habits, happy child" it will give you some ideas, and have your DH read it too, maybe it will help. Or maybe have your DH wake up to bottle feed instead of you for a night or two... I bet he'll change his mind about needing to do something :-)

Ferber and CIO is not exactly the same thing. If you want more info, you can PM me and I'll explain. We first tried Ferber and it didn't work for us, so we tried CIO.

BTW, I don't see how it can work when he is sleeping in the same room with you, maybe someone else has an idea?

Regarding age, I don't think an 8 month old should nurse at night at all. Some babies do of course, it just depends on the approach their parents choose, I think. I really don't think there is a "right" and "wrong" here, just what you feel works for you.

Good luck! I wish you many nights of happy sleep :)

[StaceyKim]

>>>Many babies are not ready to give up night feedings at eight months old. >>>
I agree with this.
What baby *wouldn't* want to nurse after waking up in the middle of the night?
I believe it is more of a comfort than a necessity.
I think a baby will get used to whatever it is you give to them.
I do think sleep training works if you are committed to it.
If you are not consistant and committed it will definitely not work and the sleep issues may even get worse.
I also agree that Ferber isn't the only way to go. There are other sleep training methods. You need to find the one that works best for you. In my case it was Ferber that worked for us.

[tarahsolazy]

Eri,

Feel free to email me off the boards if you want: tarahsolazy at yahoo dot com.

I was dead set against CIO, I was sure it was very cruel. Then, I was up hourly with my then 7.5 month old, and had been for several months. As a NB, he nursed every 2 hrs and slept in between, spacing to a max of nursing every three hours and sleeping between by 3 mo. Then, he just sort of started waking up every hour, and nursing didn't put him back to sleep, he still only wanted to nurse every 3 hrs. All those other wakings, we just walked and rocked him for 5-10min, each hour. It didn't seem restful to Forrest, or to us, so I talked to Rashmi and Nita from the boards, and read all the books. We decided to use Ferber's method. It took one night, and he sleeps through. He cried for less time than he did previously, if you combine his in arms crying before sleeping, and all the crying while we rocked him in the night. (29minutes, to be exact).

I have chosen to nurse him after he has been sleeping about 4 hours (at about 10pm), and he usually does not wake up for this feed. If he wakes crying between 9-10, I feed him then. I think you need to decide what your goal is. Mine was just to stop the wakings between feeds. I was prepared and happy to nurse every 3 hrs at night, if he'd sleep between. He dropped the feeds when he learned to fall asleep alone. In your case, as you will have difficult hours with school starting again, I'd recommend keeping at least one feed in the late evening, to help your supply. That's why I take a sleeping babe out of his crib and nurse him every night. Oh, and its very cuddly, too. ITA that you and your DH need to be on the same page, however. If not, perhaps he would be willing to do all the nightwakings, and only bring Erik to you for nursing every several hours? If Daddy isn't as fun as Mama at night, that in and of itself may prompt fewer night-wakings. I don't know, its so hard! Keep us updated on how its going, and feel free to email me if you'd like.

[KrisM]

I, personally, don't think my DS is ready to go 14 hours without food. So, I nurse him when he wakes up about 10 or 11 at night. That seems to be when he wakes, and it's good for me since I'm still awake. Then, we're working on getting him the rest of the way to morning without nursing. Our ideal schedule for him right now:

6:00 PM - nurse
6:30 PM - bedtime
10:30 PM - nurse
7:30 AM - wake for the day
8:00 AM - nurse

Last night, he had a tough time falling asleep and wasn't sleeping until 7PM. He woke at 11 to eat. Then, he woke at 2:30, I nurse for 3 min (we're gradually cutting down the session). He woke at 5:45 and nursed (full feeding) and then slept until 8:30. We're working on eliminating the 2:30 feed first and then will work on the 5:45.

I do know one person who did CIO with the crib in their room. She said it worked, but was really tough, since they had to lay in bed without moving or talking so their son didn't know they were right there. Your DH would have to be in 100% for that to work.

Good luck.

[wagner36]

When Charlie was around 8 months, I was working a ton (end of year is always so busy for me), and didn't get to see him much during the day, so he reversed cycled and nursed all night. So, in January, when I'm generally slower at work, the first thing we did was make sure that we were upping the quantity and frequency of his daytime feedings. That took about a week. After we were sure that he was getting adequate nutrtition and nursing during the day, we started to make sure our bedtime routine was totally consistent - we did that for another week.

Then,we decided to let him cry it out. I was excruciatingly tired, and we debated and debated about the process. Making the decision was the hardest part. The first night, he cried for 4 MINUTES! The second night was 6 minutes, and it has been over since then. He goes to bed like a dream (not that he stays there all night, but that's another store)

Charlie night-nursed until we stopped breastfeeding at 13 months. Until he weaned, he nursed twice at night. He had a really rough time wtih teething - but we're almost over with that since his two-year molars are popping through now. He still sleeps with me most nights (I say me, because he kicks DH in the head until he goes in the guest room) once he wakes up, which is anywhere between 11pm and 6am. I'm not sure how to stop that - I really enjoy sleeping with him, and the nature of my job is such that I often miss bedtime. So, I decided to just consider nights my nighttime parenting, and as long as he's not sleeping on my head, we just cuddle all night.

So, I know this probably didn't help you at all, Eri, but you should know that a fair amount of this could be due to your school schedule - especially since Erik probably got used to seeing you in the middle of the night....

[lisams]

I have to agree with Rachel, many babies do need night feedings at and past 8 months. No two babies are the same so it's hard to say what your individual child needs. It would be like saying all babies need to be on and are ready for rice cereal at 6 months. It's very stressing when parents hear these kinds of things when their child isn't up to "par" or ready for the set guidelines that are in the "books".

Good luck with whatever way you and your DH decide to go, but know that it is normal for an 8 month old to be waking in the middle of the night - for many different reasons. I found comfort in knowing I wasn't alone.


Lisa

[StaceyKim]

Lisa,
I am not saying that ALL babies are alike and I am trying to *support her decision to do CIO* and let her know that her child will be okay if he doesn't get fed 2 times in the middle of the night. Of course I think she may want to do it gradually NOT cold turkey. I think many people are afraid their child will starve if they don't get that feeding and feel guilty if they don't get up to feed them.

>>>>I have to agree with Rachel, many babies do need night feedings at and past 8 months>>>>

BTW, according to Sears, Brazelton, AAP, Ferber and Mindells view by SIX months you should not being feeding your baby in the middle of the night.

[psophia17]

Unlike many many people I know, both on and off the boards, I never followed a book's advice for getting DS to sleep.

When DS was about 3 or 4 months old, he had gotten used to falling asleep in our arms. He pretty much lived in/on me, sleeping, nursing, whatever, and by that time I was getting really frustrated with it, not because it wasn't awesome, but because he wasn't needing to BF every couple of hours anymore and I wanted to put him down between times. But DS was not interested in changing things around. There were many, many nights when we sat holding DS until late, and when we put him into the crib at bedtime, he would wake up and howl. At the time, he was little enough for me to be able to BF him to sleep, which was nice, but that was the only thing that would do it.

DH and I had a talk about it, while DS slept peacefully in my arms, and we decided that from then on, DS was going to bed at 9pm. The first night, we really struggled with it. Both DH and I wanted to go rescue DS, but we turned the TV up and left him be. When we went to bed at 11 (DS shared our room), I picked got DS up, BF, and put him back into the crib with no problems. At the time, he still had two night feedings, and I was able to schedule them better with waking him at 11pm. He would wake up again around 3am for a feed, and then at 6am we were up for the day.

I think that by doing this so early we avoided a lot of sleeping problems. DS started sleeping through the night within 6 weeks of us doing CIO, and aside from a few sleep issues when we traveled, when I had my appendix out, when DS learned to crawl and stand, and now that he's teething up a storm, they have been minor compared to some I've heard about.

As far as wisdom goes, I totally agree with the PPs, you and your DH have to be on the same page (as do your parents). Since Erik is older, I would guess that he will put up more of a fight to CIO than Nathan did at a much younger age, but it will eventually work, so long as it becomes his routine. Also, since he's used to getting night feedings still, I wouldn't just completely stop with that. I don't know how you will get around the shared room factor, but again, so long as what you decide to do becomes routine, it shouldn't take too long before you make some progress.

Sorry for the novel - I hope it helps!

[AvasMama]

Eri,
I haven't read everyone else's responses, so this may be repetitive, but I wanted to chime in with our recent experience. We did CIO about a month ago when Ava was 9 1/2 months. Before CIO, she would not go to sleep until 10 or 11 and then only after a long struggle. She woke to nurse every 3-4 hours.

CIO took us five nights. It was hard, hard, hard. Ava cried for 1-2 hours for the first four nights and then would wake to nurse and sometimes cry another hour or two. We did not do the 5-10-15 minutes thing as that made it much worse -- she would cry twice as long with that method than if we didn't go in at all.

From nights 5-10 or so, she would fall asleep easily, but still wake several times a night to nurse. After nursing, she would go right back to sleep in her crib.

After a couple of weeks, she went from waking every 3-4 hours to waking only once per night. She now sleeps from 8 pm - 8 am, waking around 4 or 5 to nurse. DH and I both agree that after bf'ing, this is the best decision we have made for Ava. She is well-rested and so are we! I know it isn't for everyone, but it has made a world of difference in our house. Just wanted to add a positive experience and lots of empathy -- it is tough, but if CIO is what you feel Erik needs, stick with it and stay strong :)

Robyn & Ava

P.S. If you can swing it, a video monitor is a HUGE reassurance during this process! I got the MobiCam for about $175 from www.mommysthinkin.com and it has been very helpful.

[memedee]

You have NOTHING to feel guilty about.
You are a wonderful parent who is doing the very best for your child.
Don"t let those feelings of guilt determine what you should do regarding your child.
It is important to decide what he needs and act accordingly.He is a baby and can not tell you.You are the parent and you have to make the decision.Guilt and good parenting are not good partners.
He does not need to be fed in the middle of the night.
I am sure your physician will concur.
However he does need to sleep and he should learn to soothe himself to sleep.It will be a skill he will use for the rest of his life.
If you continue to feed him in the middle of the night, He WILL wake up for it whether he actually needs it or not.
Later on , there will be other tough decisions to make but as a parent we have to make them.
If he wanted cookies and ice cream for dinner and threw a tantrum over it,I dont think you would give it to him because as a parent we have to give the child what he NEEDS not what he thinks he wants.
It is the same thing with sleep and learning how to fall asleep.
Just because he cries and grabs your hand does not mean that you are being cruel to try and teach him to soothe himself to sleep.
If you are looking for validation not to try CIO, you will find it but validation does not make it a right choice.
The only people who have to agree are you and your husband!

"doesn't necessarily follow that because you feel guilt feelings, there is something to be guilty about. Guilt is simply a feeling -- a mental experience and mechanism -- a program our brain runs in response to a perceived negative outcome of some sort."

[Phoebe]

1. I found the Weissbluth book, ("Healthy Happy something or other...") very helpful.

2. Like Ava's mom, I think the Ferber method of checking on the child at intervals prolongs the agony. I believe the Weissbluth method is 'behavior extinction', and it is very effective. (maybe a psychologist on the board could chime in on that)

3. It's hard, but no one - baby, husband, you - will get good sleep until this is fixed.

4. I breastfed both of my kids for 13 months - they both refused bottles and pacifiers. So CIO can work with b/f babies.

5. Yes, the crib should be in the baby's room.... not sure how you can fix this problem.

6. Also, I know a couple of families who avoided this whole issue by doing the family bed. That may be something that would work for you. (I can tell you several reasons why I think it's not such a good idea, but plenty of others think it's great.)

7. To me, sleep issues are huge. My 18 month old son still wakes up as early as 6:50am. For the day. However, he goes to sleep like an angel at 7pm every night.

Phoebe,
Susan 4/01
David 6/03

[crayonblue]

Yes, it is hard. But, parenting is hard and often the choices we make that are best for our children are truly harder on us than on them!

I WISH that I had let Lauren CIO at 8 months. We waited until 11 months and we were both so exhausted we had to do something. And, by "we" I mean, DH, myself, AND Lauren. She was Miss Crankypants because she was so tired from waking every couple of hours all night long. And, the lack of sleep was affecting my ability to be a patient parent.

So, we let her cry. First night she cried 2 1/2 hours. Oh my, that was agonizing. DH went in and told her it was time to sleep and then left and we didn't go back in. Second night she slept 12 hours. 12 HOURS IN A ROW! This from a baby who had not slept through the night once in 11 months. I cannot tell you how rested I felt. (Well, mostly rested! I was awake every few hours waiting for Lauren to wake up!) Lauren awoke with a smile and was in the best mood.

We have had a few set-backs and have dealt with those as we go along. But, we have never had such a long CIO. Most of the time, she sleeps through the night, but sometimes wakes once and we check on her, making sure nothing is wrong and then let her cry (usually only a few minutes).

I do nurse her once after she is down for the night. Lauren goes to bed around 7 pm and I get her up and nurse her around 11 pm before I go to bed. I don't know if I really have to do this, but it's easier for me to nurse her before I go to sleep. She then sleeps until 6 or 7 am or so.

This is all about to change though...we are beginning the weaning process and I have no idea what to expect.

Eri, don't feel guilty. If you feel this is what Erik needs, then do it wholeheartedly. This is not mean or cruel. It's just the beginning of many, many choices you will make in Erik's life that are hard.

As far as CIO at 8 months, I am not sure how long he can sleep. I would start at 6 hours and then work my way up. Just play it by ear. Don't be afraid to change something up if you feel your method isn't working. But, do give whatever you try a shot. It might take a few days.

I do agree with others that you and your DH have to be on the same page. If you let Erik CIO but your DH goes and gets him, it won't work. Either you will be doing CIO for a LONG, LONG time or you will just give up.

Good luck to you. Please know that there are MANY of us who have done CIO successfully and know without a shadow of a doubt that it was the best thing for our children.

Please ask any questions you might have.

ETA: I just read through the site Rachel posted. If Erik would settle down better being patted or having you in the room, that might make you feel better. In our case, Lauren absolutely does not like to be patted (hasn't since a newborn) and gets madder and madder and more upset when we are in the room and not picking her up. So, leaving the room was the best option for us.

[Rachels]

Not so for all of those. Mindell also thinks babies can vomit intentionally as a way of manipulating their parents, which is crap, so I find her advice suspect overall. Sears never says that you SHOULD NOT feed your baby past six months-- he is in fact an advocate of cosleeping and extended nursing. Here are his 31 suggestions for improving baby sleep:
http://askdrsears.com/html/7/T070300.asp

The AAP's comments about night-feeding are largely directed at nighttime formula, which begins to have an effect on baby teeth once they come in.

The idea that you can know whether someone else's baby needs to be fed during the night when all you have to work with is the baby's age is just faulty.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_sapphire_24m.gif Two years and counting!

[Rachels]

Oh, gosh. I'll respond briefly only because you asked about the psychologists on the board chiming in. Extinction is indeed very effective, but from a psychological standpoint, I worry very much about the costs. When you put a child in a separate room and simply refuse to come in for hours on end, and when the child is not verbal and can't understand why, it's going to provoke tremendous anxiety in that child. The effects of prolonged anxiety can have lasting psychological impacts; anxiety over time can actually change the brain's pathways such that the child feels anxiety more quickly and less appropriately. This won't happen in one night, of course, but over many nights, it is a realistic possibility. The other approaches, if you feel you must do CIO, are safer from a psychological standpoint because the baby does not feel afraid for prolonged periods of time.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_sapphire_24m.gif Two years and counting!

[Phoebe]

>Oh, gosh. I'll respond briefly only because you asked about
>the psychologists on the board chiming in. Extinction is
>indeed very effective, but from a psychological standpoint, I
>worry very much about the costs. When you put a child in a
>separate room and simply refuse to come in for hours on end,

I don't doubt that; the harm of crying hours on end. Fortunately, CIO usually works in less than an hour. It did in our case anyway.

But I understand what you're saying. I guess it doesn't work for every parent or every baby.

Phoebe,
Susan 4/01
David 6/03

[StaceyKim]

>>>>>Sears never says that you SHOULD NOT feed your baby past six months-- he is in fact an advocate of cosleeping and extended nursing>>>>

>>>>The AAP's comments about night-feeding are largely directed at nighttime formula, which begins to have an effect on baby teeth once they come in.>>>>


Hmmmmm, this is where I read it:

http://www.babycenter.com/general/7707.html

[StaceyKim]

>>>>>Sears never says that you SHOULD NOT feed your baby past six months-- he is in fact an advocate of cosleeping and extended nursing>>>>

>>>>The AAP's comments about night-feeding are largely directed at nighttime formula, which begins to have an effect on baby teeth once they come in.>>>>


Hmmmmm, this is where I read it:

http://www.babycenter.com/general/7707.html

[aliceinwonderland]

Tara,
Oh, I know it's completely due to me and my school schedule. Hence the guilt. But I need to function, so does DH. One needs to do what works...Thanks for letting me know what you guys are doing...Erik has spent MANY half-nights in our bed: he pulls my hair and kicks me with surprising strength...So even sleeping in our bed is not a happy situation...

[aliceinwonderland]

Tara,
Oh, I know it's completely due to me and my school schedule. Hence the guilt. But I need to function, so does DH. One needs to do what works...Thanks for letting me know what you guys are doing...Erik has spent MANY half-nights in our bed: he pulls my hair and kicks me with surprising strength...So even sleeping in our bed is not a happy situation...

[lisams]

The impression I get is that after a few days of letting the child CIO to go to sleep initially (at bedtime) that the night waking goes away because the child learns to fall alseep on their own if they do wake in the middle of the night. So if the child continues waking in the middle of the night after successful CIO then I would think there is another reason since they can self sooth.

I don't know though! I just think it's normal for 8 month olds to wake once or twice and that it can still be done along with successful CIO training if the OP is wanting to nurse her DS in the middle of the night after letting him CIO initially (at bedtime). I don't think it will ruin the training done.

I'm sorry I came across rudely, I really didn't mean to - I was just wanting the OP to know that it's normal (at least it seems to be from other parents I've talked to!)

Lisa

[lisams]

The impression I get is that after a few days of letting the child CIO to go to sleep initially (at bedtime) that the night waking goes away because the child learns to fall alseep on their own if they do wake in the middle of the night. So if the child continues waking in the middle of the night after successful CIO then I would think there is another reason since they can self sooth.

I don't know though! I just think it's normal for 8 month olds to wake once or twice and that it can still be done along with successful CIO training if the OP is wanting to nurse her DS in the middle of the night after letting him CIO initially (at bedtime). I don't think it will ruin the training done.

I'm sorry I came across rudely, I really didn't mean to - I was just wanting the OP to know that it's normal (at least it seems to be from other parents I've talked to!)

Lisa

[Rachels]

Ah. Well, it's easy to misinterpret some of that. You have to actually read Sears, Brazelton, the AAP statements, etc. to really get a handle on what they say. Those are short blurbs, and they don't really convey all that much very accurately. Also, they weren't written by the person they're talking about. They're written by someone who is making a pitch at sleep training. If you go directly to the sources themselves, you'll find that what they say is a good deal more complicated than what that website suggests.

For example, if you read Sears, you'll see that he says that night feedings are very normal, but that very frequent nightwakings are likely to be the result of a medical concern. Some of those concerns, like silent reflux, mean that the baby is in pain if he goes more than a few hours without nursing, so nightfeeding is actually extremely important for the baby's health. He does not ever say you should refuse to nurse your baby at night. That's very different from what you suggested that website says-- and even that site doesn't claim that Sears says to stop all night nursing at six months. That's just one example.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_sapphire_24m.gif Two years and counting!

[Rachels]

Ah. Well, it's easy to misinterpret some of that. You have to actually read Sears, Brazelton, the AAP statements, etc. to really get a handle on what they say. Those are short blurbs, and they don't really convey all that much very accurately. Also, they weren't written by the person they're talking about. They're written by someone who is making a pitch at sleep training. If you go directly to the sources themselves, you'll find that what they say is a good deal more complicated than what that website suggests.

For example, if you read Sears, you'll see that he says that night feedings are very normal, but that very frequent nightwakings are likely to be the result of a medical concern. Some of those concerns, like silent reflux, mean that the baby is in pain if he goes more than a few hours without nursing, so nightfeeding is actually extremely important for the baby's health. He does not ever say you should refuse to nurse your baby at night. That's very different from what you suggested that website says-- and even that site doesn't claim that Sears says to stop all night nursing at six months. That's just one example.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_sapphire_24m.gif Two years and counting!

[memedee]

Oh,gosh.
I don't think what you are describing has anything to do with teaching a child to soothe themselves to sleep.
Leaving a child for "hours on end" is a phrase that does not apply to this discussion or to any of the parents on this board.
Feeling guilt over possibly creating "prolonged anxiety" in sleep training is also not particularly helpful.
I gathered from the original poster that she wanted some support in her attempts to help her baby learn to get the sleep that he needs.
It is a tough decision for her and no one wants to do the wrong thing for their child.

[memedee]

Oh,gosh.
I don't think what you are describing has anything to do with teaching a child to soothe themselves to sleep.
Leaving a child for "hours on end" is a phrase that does not apply to this discussion or to any of the parents on this board.
Feeling guilt over possibly creating "prolonged anxiety" in sleep training is also not particularly helpful.
I gathered from the original poster that she wanted some support in her attempts to help her baby learn to get the sleep that he needs.
It is a tough decision for her and no one wants to do the wrong thing for their child.

[StaceyKim]

i am not going to *keep going back and forth* on this
the point of the post was "gathering CIO wisdom"
not the views of people against CIO and their beliefs

[StaceyKim]

i am not going to *keep going back and forth* on this
the point of the post was "gathering CIO wisdom"
not the views of people against CIO and their beliefs

[aliceinwonderland]

Yes, that is right, thank you. I was also against CIO util a few weeks ago. What works for my family may not work for another, but my reality is what I have to deal with...

And Tarah, I emailed you. THANKS!

[aliceinwonderland]

Yes, that is right, thank you. I was also against CIO util a few weeks ago. What works for my family may not work for another, but my reality is what I have to deal with...

And Tarah, I emailed you. THANKS!

[StaceyKim]

:-)

[StaceyKim]

:-)

[deborah_r]

>Leaving a child for "hours on end" is a phrase that does not
>apply to this discussion or to any of the parents on this
>board.


Well, really, the OP has no idea whether she will be looking at 10 minutes of crying or 2-3 hours of crying. Just the responses in this thread have shown a wide range of times that different babies cry. So I'm not sure why that doesn't apply here.

I hate to get invlolved in these threads, but I think Rachel is being bashed for just offering some information. The OP said she wanted to gather CIO wisdom. If she didn't want any information that was not positive about CIO, I guess I didn't read her post that way. Gathering information usually includes the pros and the cons.

Edit for spelling

[deborah_r]

>Leaving a child for "hours on end" is a phrase that does not
>apply to this discussion or to any of the parents on this
>board.


Well, really, the OP has no idea whether she will be looking at 10 minutes of crying or 2-3 hours of crying. Just the responses in this thread have shown a wide range of times that different babies cry. So I'm not sure why that doesn't apply here.

I hate to get invlolved in these threads, but I think Rachel is being bashed for just offering some information. The OP said she wanted to gather CIO wisdom. If she didn't want any information that was not positive about CIO, I guess I didn't read her post that way. Gathering information usually includes the pros and the cons.

Edit for spelling

[sntm]

I read a great quote recently that I actually wrote down and posted over my desk here at work.

"Guilt is what you feel when your actions conflict with your values."

I believe that guilt and other negative emotions that you feel when your baby cries is your mind's way of telling you that what you are doing isn't right. Babies (and yes, Erik is STILL a baby!) don't cry to be manipulative. They don't cry to be manipulative. They DON'T cry to be manipulative. From your description, he sounds terrified because he needs you, knows you are out there, and yet you aren't coming to help him. He grabbed your hand and wouldn't let go because he didn't want that feeling again.

I;m not on the boards as much these days due to work pressures, so I don't know specifically what is going on, but I can empathize with combining baby and work. I won't argue that CIO can work to make some babies sleep longer (or at least, not bother mom when they wake up) but the more I read, the more I truly belive that it comes at a cost. Every parent has to decide if that cost is worth it. I remember you have had supply issues -- this will probably have a cost on your supply. This may have a cost on your relationship with Erik. This may have a cost on your relationship with your DH. This may have an effect (maybe not noticeable since you won't know what he would have been like without CIO but still there) on Erik's development. I'm friends with people who have done CIO and I will think you are a great person no matter what, but I think this is a wrong decision, and in some ways I think you think so too.

Though I am already anticipating the flames for being "unsupportive", Eri, please know that I am not trying to be unsupportive. I feel that support involves helping someone make the best decision for themselves, and my being a "yes man" and either agreeing that you should do this or not saying anything when I think I have something to contribute to the discussion would be unsupportive. I know as a lawyer-to-be you can appreciate the importance of informed consent. Here's some more reading.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=179657

Please feel free to pm me if you want to talk. I've found ways to reduce nightwaking without crying, and ways to manage so that I am still a fully functioning kick-butt researcher/resident at work too.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif[/img][/url]
Breastfeeding 18 months and count

[sntm]

I read a great quote recently that I actually wrote down and posted over my desk here at work.

"Guilt is what you feel when your actions conflict with your values."

I believe that guilt and other negative emotions that you feel when your baby cries is your mind's way of telling you that what you are doing isn't right. Babies (and yes, Erik is STILL a baby!) don't cry to be manipulative. They don't cry to be manipulative. They DON'T cry to be manipulative. From your description, he sounds terrified because he needs you, knows you are out there, and yet you aren't coming to help him. He grabbed your hand and wouldn't let go because he didn't want that feeling again.

I;m not on the boards as much these days due to work pressures, so I don't know specifically what is going on, but I can empathize with combining baby and work. I won't argue that CIO can work to make some babies sleep longer (or at least, not bother mom when they wake up) but the more I read, the more I truly belive that it comes at a cost. Every parent has to decide if that cost is worth it. I remember you have had supply issues -- this will probably have a cost on your supply. This may have a cost on your relationship with Erik. This may have a cost on your relationship with your DH. This may have an effect (maybe not noticeable since you won't know what he would have been like without CIO but still there) on Erik's development. I'm friends with people who have done CIO and I will think you are a great person no matter what, but I think this is a wrong decision, and in some ways I think you think so too.

Though I am already anticipating the flames for being "unsupportive", Eri, please know that I am not trying to be unsupportive. I feel that support involves helping someone make the best decision for themselves, and my being a "yes man" and either agreeing that you should do this or not saying anything when I think I have something to contribute to the discussion would be unsupportive. I know as a lawyer-to-be you can appreciate the importance of informed consent. Here's some more reading.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=179657

Please feel free to pm me if you want to talk. I've found ways to reduce nightwaking without crying, and ways to manage so that I am still a fully functioning kick-butt researcher/resident at work too.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif[/img][/url]
Breastfeeding 18 months and count

[aliceinwonderland]

Well, I hope you don't get flamed...I appreciate all points of view, yours included. I have not decided 100% what we will do. I want to preserve one night feeding, for supply issues.

Erik DOES cry to be manipulative now. Even DH can tell real cries from "I want attention NOW" ones. He started getting up every hour recently for no good reason, just to get attention. He slept better than that at 3 months.

[aliceinwonderland]

Well, I hope you don't get flamed...I appreciate all points of view, yours included. I have not decided 100% what we will do. I want to preserve one night feeding, for supply issues.

Erik DOES cry to be manipulative now. Even DH can tell real cries from "I want attention NOW" ones. He started getting up every hour recently for no good reason, just to get attention. He slept better than that at 3 months.

[aliceinwonderland]

Well, I hope you don't get flamed...I appreciate all points of view, yours included. I have not decided 100% what we will do. I want to preserve one night feeding, for supply issues.

Erik DOES cry to be manipulative now. Even DH can tell real cries from "I want attention NOW" ones. He started getting up every hour recently for no good reason, just to get attention. He slept better than that at 3 months.

[aliceinwonderland]

Well, I hope you don't get flamed...I appreciate all points of view, yours included. I have not decided 100% what we will do. I want to preserve one night feeding, for supply issues.

Erik DOES cry to be manipulative now. Even DH can tell real cries from "I want attention NOW" ones. He started getting up every hour recently for no good reason, just to get attention. He slept better than that at 3 months.

[Moneypenny]

We haven't had to do CIO with DD, and she's been a great night sleeper, so I don't have any advice about CIO. However, she did have a rough spot at about 3 months that caused DH and I lots of anguish as we tried to decide if she was suddenly becoming hungry in the night, lonely, just plain awake, or what. We decided that whispering to each other at 2:30 am was not the best time try to figure these things out. During the day when we were feeling well-rested and (fairly) mentally alert, we hatched a plan (i.e. if she woke between 7 pm and 1 am, DH would go to her, if she woke between 1 am and 5 am, I would go to her and nurse her, if she woke after 5, DH would entertain her until I got up at 5:45 to do the regular morning feeding - all with the caveat that if she were really crying rather than just fussing she would be immediately picked up and soothed).

It really set my mind at ease to have a plan in place. In fact, for me, the fact that we had a plan was almost more important than the actual details of the plan. Luckily for us, DD sorted herself out quickly once we moved her bedtime up and we really haven't had to use the plan, but it was so much easier for DH and I to rest easily knowing that if we heard her whimpering at 2:45 I could say, "Aha. It's between 1 and 5 so I will go feed her." I realized each night prior to this I was dreading going to bed because I was worrying about what we were going to do if/when she woke up. In fact, this is still the plan we have in place for those odd nights when she has trouble and doesn't sleep through.

Whatever you decide, allow for a feeding or two if you think he needs it, compromise with DH on an amount of soothing you are both comfortable with, and Good Luck! I think kiddos really do want to be able to sleep well at night and many just need our help in learning how to do that.

Susan
DD - Avery, born 8/5/04

[Moneypenny]

We haven't had to do CIO with DD, and she's been a great night sleeper, so I don't have any advice about CIO. However, she did have a rough spot at about 3 months that caused DH and I lots of anguish as we tried to decide if she was suddenly becoming hungry in the night, lonely, just plain awake, or what. We decided that whispering to each other at 2:30 am was not the best time try to figure these things out. During the day when we were feeling well-rested and (fairly) mentally alert, we hatched a plan (i.e. if she woke between 7 pm and 1 am, DH would go to her, if she woke between 1 am and 5 am, I would go to her and nurse her, if she woke after 5, DH would entertain her until I got up at 5:45 to do the regular morning feeding - all with the caveat that if she were really crying rather than just fussing she would be immediately picked up and soothed).

It really set my mind at ease to have a plan in place. In fact, for me, the fact that we had a plan was almost more important than the actual details of the plan. Luckily for us, DD sorted herself out quickly once we moved her bedtime up and we really haven't had to use the plan, but it was so much easier for DH and I to rest easily knowing that if we heard her whimpering at 2:45 I could say, "Aha. It's between 1 and 5 so I will go feed her." I realized each night prior to this I was dreading going to bed because I was worrying about what we were going to do if/when she woke up. In fact, this is still the plan we have in place for those odd nights when she has trouble and doesn't sleep through.

Whatever you decide, allow for a feeding or two if you think he needs it, compromise with DH on an amount of soothing you are both comfortable with, and Good Luck! I think kiddos really do want to be able to sleep well at night and many just need our help in learning how to do that.

Susan
DD - Avery, born 8/5/04

[sntm]

:) I would disagree that that is manipulative, though. To Erik, a need for attention is as important and real and palpable as a need for food, water, or shelter. The need for love and attention is so fundamental that even clinical studies have shown a difference in growth patterns/heart rate stability/EEG patterns between babies who are comforted and held and babies who aren't. It isn't a need that is outgrown after a few months, and isn't a need that can be constrained by adult schedules.

He is not being devious or calculating. He is trying to express his needs in a way that he knows works -- with a lack of patience and comprehension about mom and dad being busy or tired that is entirely appropriate for an 8 month old. He has a need that isn't being fulfilled. He may have made an association between crying and getting that need fulfilled, but if so, I believe the answer is not to deny the need even more by not responding to cries, but to look to how you can fulfill the need before he cries.

I've found this to be the key with Jack, and I can always tell when I've begun to neglect his need for attention, because that is basically the only time he ever cries these days.

If he just started getting up recently, then I'd look into the reason for that more. I'll try to find old posts (since it sounds like you've posted on this before) but definitely rule out medical issues like teething, illness, reflux, etc. How does he wake up? Crying, quiet, excited? how do you respond to him when he does wake -- comforting is appropriate but can be done in a quiet, unexciting manner. Could it be a reaction to a change in schedule -- I know you just finished up finals a few weeks ago and he probably didn't see much of you during the day since you were studying. He may be compensating for decreased time with you during the day. He may be instinctively trying to reverse cycle to maximize his nursing time. I have always had a terrific supply despite working full time, in large part due to night nursing.

Again, wishing you the best.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif[/img][/url]
Breastfeeding 18 months and count

[sntm]

:) I would disagree that that is manipulative, though. To Erik, a need for attention is as important and real and palpable as a need for food, water, or shelter. The need for love and attention is so fundamental that even clinical studies have shown a difference in growth patterns/heart rate stability/EEG patterns between babies who are comforted and held and babies who aren't. It isn't a need that is outgrown after a few months, and isn't a need that can be constrained by adult schedules.

He is not being devious or calculating. He is trying to express his needs in a way that he knows works -- with a lack of patience and comprehension about mom and dad being busy or tired that is entirely appropriate for an 8 month old. He has a need that isn't being fulfilled. He may have made an association between crying and getting that need fulfilled, but if so, I believe the answer is not to deny the need even more by not responding to cries, but to look to how you can fulfill the need before he cries.

I've found this to be the key with Jack, and I can always tell when I've begun to neglect his need for attention, because that is basically the only time he ever cries these days.

If he just started getting up recently, then I'd look into the reason for that more. I'll try to find old posts (since it sounds like you've posted on this before) but definitely rule out medical issues like teething, illness, reflux, etc. How does he wake up? Crying, quiet, excited? how do you respond to him when he does wake -- comforting is appropriate but can be done in a quiet, unexciting manner. Could it be a reaction to a change in schedule -- I know you just finished up finals a few weeks ago and he probably didn't see much of you during the day since you were studying. He may be compensating for decreased time with you during the day. He may be instinctively trying to reverse cycle to maximize his nursing time. I have always had a terrific supply despite working full time, in large part due to night nursing.

Again, wishing you the best.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif[/img][/url]
Breastfeeding 18 months and count

[sntm]

duplicate!

[sntm]

duplicate!

[lisams]

I think it's a wise idea to preserve one night feeding until you are ready to get rid of all night feedings - supply being one issue and your own comfort another. When DD was about Erik's age she went one night without waking and I was so sore. It was nice *she* slept through the night, I on the other hand didn't ;-)

Good luck with whatever way you go, I think the most important thing is that you and your DH sit down and make a plan instead of doing it out of frustration (we did that once and failed miserably!). Once you two are on the same page, you can help support each other.

Hoping some nice long nights of sleep are in your near future!

Lisa

[lisams]

I think it's a wise idea to preserve one night feeding until you are ready to get rid of all night feedings - supply being one issue and your own comfort another. When DD was about Erik's age she went one night without waking and I was so sore. It was nice *she* slept through the night, I on the other hand didn't ;-)

Good luck with whatever way you go, I think the most important thing is that you and your DH sit down and make a plan instead of doing it out of frustration (we did that once and failed miserably!). Once you two are on the same page, you can help support each other.

Hoping some nice long nights of sleep are in your near future!

Lisa

[Rachels]

Eri, I was responding, as the poster said below, because you were looking for CIO wisdom, and there are many gradations to it that are worth considering. While I do agree heartily with what Shannon said, you'll note that the first thing I posted was a nightweaning link in hopes that a gentle approach might work for you guys. CIO wisdom and misquoting the experts are not the same thing. My later posts were to clarify. I do understand your exhaustion. I've been there. There are options, even within sleep training.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_sapphire_24m.gif Two years and counting!

[Rachels]

Eri, I was responding, as the poster said below, because you were looking for CIO wisdom, and there are many gradations to it that are worth considering. While I do agree heartily with what Shannon said, you'll note that the first thing I posted was a nightweaning link in hopes that a gentle approach might work for you guys. CIO wisdom and misquoting the experts are not the same thing. My later posts were to clarify. I do understand your exhaustion. I've been there. There are options, even within sleep training.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_sapphire_24m.gif Two years and counting!

[aliceinwonderland]

Rachel:
I did find the Jay Gordon link informative--thanks

Thanks everyone. I'll keep you posted!

[aliceinwonderland]

Rachel:
I did find the Jay Gordon link informative--thanks

Thanks everyone. I'll keep you posted!

[StaceyKim]

http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/baby/babysleep/7755.html

[StaceyKim]

http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/baby/babysleep/7755.html

[egoldber]

I guess I'll start by saying that I am *not* against CIO when it is done in a humane way (a la Ferber vs. something like Ezzo). But I think that almost all the recognized sleep experts (Ferber, Weissbluth, Pantly, et al.) do not recommend CIO as a first resort. The first thing to do is to look at the baby's overall routine and sleep patterns.

Often, getting into a real routine for 1-2 weeks can solve a lot of sleep problems on its own. I know thats probably hard for you with your school schedule, but honestly until a routine is in place, even if a bout of CIO does fix the sleep issues today, sleep issues are likely to continue to occur.

Now you say you respond to him at his first moan. I did that too when DD was a very young infant and she has ALWAYS been a very good sleeper, so I don't think that creates negative sleep associations on its own. But I think that an 8 month old can wait a minute or 2 to see if its a real cry or just a normal sleep disturbance that they will overcome on their own. To me, thats not CIO, thats giving them a chance to work things out on their own. (and as you can tell, what some people call CIO is not what others call CIO.) I know that 9 times out of 10, DD would end up going back to sleep within a minute or so of waking up. But if she started full scale crying, then I have always gone into her and that has never had a detrimental effect on her sleep.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if you need to do CIO, its nothing to feel guilty about IMO. But based on what you have posted, it sounds like there are lots of other things to try that are just as likely to work.

HTH,

[egoldber]

I guess I'll start by saying that I am *not* against CIO when it is done in a humane way (a la Ferber vs. something like Ezzo). But I think that almost all the recognized sleep experts (Ferber, Weissbluth, Pantly, et al.) do not recommend CIO as a first resort. The first thing to do is to look at the baby's overall routine and sleep patterns.

Often, getting into a real routine for 1-2 weeks can solve a lot of sleep problems on its own. I know thats probably hard for you with your school schedule, but honestly until a routine is in place, even if a bout of CIO does fix the sleep issues today, sleep issues are likely to continue to occur.

Now you say you respond to him at his first moan. I did that too when DD was a very young infant and she has ALWAYS been a very good sleeper, so I don't think that creates negative sleep associations on its own. But I think that an 8 month old can wait a minute or 2 to see if its a real cry or just a normal sleep disturbance that they will overcome on their own. To me, thats not CIO, thats giving them a chance to work things out on their own. (and as you can tell, what some people call CIO is not what others call CIO.) I know that 9 times out of 10, DD would end up going back to sleep within a minute or so of waking up. But if she started full scale crying, then I have always gone into her and that has never had a detrimental effect on her sleep.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if you need to do CIO, its nothing to feel guilty about IMO. But based on what you have posted, it sounds like there are lots of other things to try that are just as likely to work.

HTH,

[proggoddess]

I think you're in a tough position with the crib in your room. Your son may be waking up because one of you snores, thrashes around, makes noise, etc. I know that my snoring wakes DD and she's in her own room! We have to close her door at night.

One thing you could try for some visual privacy is to maybe hang a curtain around the crib, or put a sheet up between your bed and the crib. That way you can at least sneak in without him seeing you. Or sleep downstairs/in the living room for a couple nights. It'll be like camping! (Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Hee hee.)

When our DD was young and woke to feed at night, we'd go to her and pick her up, but we would not feed her right away. Instead we waited 10-15 minutes. It was tiring, but made it much easier for her to not eat at night.

We let her CIO in 5-10 minute bursts when she had problems going to sleep at 6 months. That lasted only about 4-5 days. Now, she'll go to sleep fine most nights. She only has problems if Grandma doesn't let her take a nap, or if she's eaten something she's allergic to and it has made her hyperactive.

We do pick her up if she cries in the middle of the night for more than 2-3 minutes. She usually falls asleep on our shoulders and we just put her down and she's out. If we don't pick her up, she won't calm down enough to fall back asleep.

But really, (IMHO) get that baby to his own room ASAP. That will be the biggest help!

[proggoddess]

I think you're in a tough position with the crib in your room. Your son may be waking up because one of you snores, thrashes around, makes noise, etc. I know that my snoring wakes DD and she's in her own room! We have to close her door at night.

One thing you could try for some visual privacy is to maybe hang a curtain around the crib, or put a sheet up between your bed and the crib. That way you can at least sneak in without him seeing you. Or sleep downstairs/in the living room for a couple nights. It'll be like camping! (Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Hee hee.)

When our DD was young and woke to feed at night, we'd go to her and pick her up, but we would not feed her right away. Instead we waited 10-15 minutes. It was tiring, but made it much easier for her to not eat at night.

We let her CIO in 5-10 minute bursts when she had problems going to sleep at 6 months. That lasted only about 4-5 days. Now, she'll go to sleep fine most nights. She only has problems if Grandma doesn't let her take a nap, or if she's eaten something she's allergic to and it has made her hyperactive.

We do pick her up if she cries in the middle of the night for more than 2-3 minutes. She usually falls asleep on our shoulders and we just put her down and she's out. If we don't pick her up, she won't calm down enough to fall back asleep.

But really, (IMHO) get that baby to his own room ASAP. That will be the biggest help!

[aliceinwonderland]

The moment we drop off my parents at the airport, we're hanging the Babar posters and moving that crib!! LOL



MANY thanks everyone. We're doing a mixed "Eri and Andrew" approach in the interim as we gather more info and read another book! We try to do the minimum reqired to calm him down after letting him cry for a couple of minutes in the begining of the night. Tonight, he just needed my hand and playing with my fingers, no need to pick him up from crib (YAY!). Naps have gotten so much better, I just hope to keep with the consistency when he goes back to his sitter in 2 weeks.
I'm also trying hard to just nurse twice per night, no more. I want to preserve at least one feeding to maintain supply.

If I can get him(and us) to sleep for 3 and then 4 hours, I will be the happiest person alive!!

THANKS AGAIN. Not celebrating anything yet, just feeling some progress, which is a very good feeling.

[aliceinwonderland]

The moment we drop off my parents at the airport, we're hanging the Babar posters and moving that crib!! LOL



MANY thanks everyone. We're doing a mixed "Eri and Andrew" approach in the interim as we gather more info and read another book! We try to do the minimum reqired to calm him down after letting him cry for a couple of minutes in the begining of the night. Tonight, he just needed my hand and playing with my fingers, no need to pick him up from crib (YAY!). Naps have gotten so much better, I just hope to keep with the consistency when he goes back to his sitter in 2 weeks.
I'm also trying hard to just nurse twice per night, no more. I want to preserve at least one feeding to maintain supply.

If I can get him(and us) to sleep for 3 and then 4 hours, I will be the happiest person alive!!

THANKS AGAIN. Not celebrating anything yet, just feeling some progress, which is a very good feeling.

[HannaAddict]

I couldn't agree more with you! We've gone through the ebbs and flows of sleep, but in general our little guy is a good sleeper. Things happen with babies developmentally, physcially, etc. that we don't understand, and sometime babies need more attention. They are inconvenient, they do wake up and cause sleep deprivation. It is no fun sometimes and exhausting. But they are not manipulative at this age in the way that older children and adults are. I really don't know why there is this new emphasis on making babies conform to our schedules when they are so little or the thought that we can schedule them and make them little adults.

I have worked in a pressure cooker enviroment, mega law firm, all nighters at the printers for IPOs (those were the days), and I know it would be extremely hard if not impossible to do with a very young baby at home. Sometimes something has to give and my choice would not be for my baby to CIO, especially when I was questioning the decision on some level myself.

[HannaAddict]

I couldn't agree more with you! We've gone through the ebbs and flows of sleep, but in general our little guy is a good sleeper. Things happen with babies developmentally, physcially, etc. that we don't understand, and sometime babies need more attention. They are inconvenient, they do wake up and cause sleep deprivation. It is no fun sometimes and exhausting. But they are not manipulative at this age in the way that older children and adults are. I really don't know why there is this new emphasis on making babies conform to our schedules when they are so little or the thought that we can schedule them and make them little adults.

I have worked in a pressure cooker enviroment, mega law firm, all nighters at the printers for IPOs (those were the days), and I know it would be extremely hard if not impossible to do with a very young baby at home. Sometimes something has to give and my choice would not be for my baby to CIO, especially when I was questioning the decision on some level myself.

[sntm]

Yay for progress! Good luck, sweetie!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif[/img][/url]
Breastfeeding 18 months and count

[sntm]

Yay for progress! Good luck, sweetie!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif[/img][/url]
Breastfeeding 18 months and count

[Louise1001]

Hi, Weissbuth recommends CIO after 4 months. But I think he also recommends limited crying to get naps before 4 months. My DD is only 10 weeks old, and we are getting to the end of our ropes. She will no longer go down to sleep at night without extensive hours of rocking. We sometimes go through this cycle 2-3 times a night, starting at 6-7pm, before she goes down at 10-11! (We try to put her in her crib and she quickly wakes up, then we start over!) Is 12 weeks too early? Is now too early? Help!

[Judegirl]

Deleted because I had NO idea this thread was so old!!! ROFL - No wonder everyone kept saying that Erik was 8 months old...!

Jude

[mudder17]

Eri, it's so good to see you have some encouraging signs about this! Wishing you lots of happy sleep vibes!


Eileen

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/candle.gif for Leah

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif , 18 months & counting


http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/catcatcvi20040222_4_Kaya+is.png

[alexsmommy]

Oh, I'm glad you wrote this - I was sitting here going - "maybe I confused which child was Eri's at Tara's Chicago gathering - I know he was much bigger this." Off to have coffee...I must not be all of the way awake.
Alaina
Alex 2-4-03

[aliceinwonderland]

I was so shocked to see this thread!!

Alaina, thankfully only one child these days, and our present problem involves throwing and hurling things, not sleeping :) :)

[TraciG]

Ferber was the BEST thing I did for Sydney & myself !!!!!!!!