This is why guns in the house scare me [Archive] - Baby Bargains & Baby 411 Community

HannaAddict

08-01-2005, 10:10 PM

I would be less concerned about them intentionally lying about a gun being secure or not, but the problem sometimes gun owners think and fully intend for the gun to be secure and it isn't and somebody is hurt or killed. I have the same problem with the idea that teaching gun safety will prevent an accidental shooting. Kids and teens will be kids and teens. While it is great to be safe shooting a gun and know intellectually how to handle one with mom and dad around, all bets are off when the kids aren't supervised. Even good kids can do stupd things and show off or get the gun out and have something terrible happened. We had a much respected deputy in the county I worked in whose son killed his friend with a trigger locked revolver. The son was a teen, was fully trained in gun safety, a good, decent kid. He had friends over, they got a gun out from where it was kept in a closet. He knew how to get the trigger lock off, loaded it and it went off at some point and killed the friend. It was tragic. I know that teens (not babies at least!) can do reckless or stupid things with cars too, but I won't have a gun in my house and my son won't spend time without me being present, anywhere I know there is a gun.

Kimberly
DS 3/18/04

HannaAddict

08-01-2005, 10:11 PM

I agree.

Kimberly
DS 3/18/04

redhookmom

08-01-2005, 11:14 PM

We had a gun in our house when I was little and I never even knew it! My father worded as a police officer in NYC for a few years.

I would agree that I only send my kind to the homes of people I know well. I trust that they put the Tylenol away, close the gate to the pool, watch the kids when they are outside...

luvbeinmama

08-02-2005, 12:05 AM

ITA... and ditto

luvbeinmama

08-02-2005, 12:06 AM

No, another option would be for them to show you that it is secure. And I would gladly do so for anyone who asked.

luvbeinmama

08-02-2005, 12:14 AM

Being in a family where gun ownership is not an option, it is a fact of life, I agree with your second thought (para) here. And if you or anyone asked if a gun was currently in the house and wanted to know where it was locked up and how, I would be more than happy to show them. If a 6 yo (or a teenager for that matter) is able to get to a weapon, unlock it and use it, it is NOT secure. And in every one of these accidents, that is the case. We are extremely careful to make sure all guns are secure in our house at all times.

For those who will never own a gun and fear guns: Please do not make blanket statements regarding gun owners due to the irresponsibility of a few.

jkpalotay

08-02-2005, 12:38 AM

I don't want to be arguementative either, but I feel sooo much safer knowing that we are able to protect ourselves if someone is in my home, threatening myself or my children. I see nothing wrong with someone keeping a gun in their house, provided it is in a locked gun safe, preferably one with fingerprint access only. (No chance of small children or teenagers gaining access.) I also agree with the PP that teaching children basic gun safety, when they reach an appropriate age, is extremely important. But, just as important, is making sure the gun is never accesible. I see nothing wrong with someone having a gun for hunting or target shooting when stored properly. It's all about being responsible and using common sense.

slknight

08-02-2005, 06:40 AM

Ok, I really don't understand this. And I'm not being argumentative, I honestly don't understand it, so maybe you can help me.

You (and not just you personally as I've heard this argument used before by others) say that you feel safer knowing you are able to protect yourself if someone is in your home. But if your gun is as securily locked up as you say, how can you possible defend yourself in a timely manner if someone is threatening you? :confused: If someone is in your home and is trying to rob you, how are you going to be able to get to the locked safe and access it with your fingerprints? Are you going to say to the burglar, "Hang on there a minute, but I'm going to go unlock my gun so I can defend myself?" I'm not trying to be flip. I really truly do NOT get it.

I can understand law enforcement officers needing to keep guns at home and having them securely locked up. Although I'm not sure how I feel about my child playing in a house under those circumstances, I can understand it and logically process it. Much more so than the scenario you described.

steph2003

08-02-2005, 06:46 AM

Susan
those were my thoughts!

ddmarsh

08-02-2005, 07:04 AM

Actually statistically a gun in the home is far more likely to be used against the owner than to protect them. Just an FYI.

Calmegja2

08-02-2005, 07:12 AM

Yup to Debbie, and ITA with Susan.

Rachels

08-02-2005, 07:17 AM

Yep, that's true, and there are some interesting social science studies that explain why. In a potentially aggressive situation, the sight or presence of a weapon actually increases violent impulses and tendencies. Gun owners are injured and killed dramatically more frequently than intruders.

I think it's incredibly important to teach gun safety, and I also think it's incredibly naive to assume that just because you've done that, a child will be able to ignore all his impulses in the presence of one. Also, children do not have the foresight or judgment of adults-- they just don't. We'll never keep a gun in the house, and Abby won't be allowed to play in houses with guns, either. We may on very rare occasion run into a parent who doesn't love that decision and it may cause some friction, but she won't be accidentally killed by a gun at a playmate's house, either. I can live with that tradeoff.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)

"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

ethansmom

08-02-2005, 07:35 AM

I don't allow guns in my home, but we know a family that hunts and has guns. At this point, I think it would be highly unlikely for DS to be in their home w/out me, but just to be prepared, what should I make sure they show me? Since I have no knowledge of guns, I have no idea what to look for as far as making sure they are truly inaccessible.

FWIW, I know this couple says their guns are secure, but they weren't secure enough to stop a burglar from getting the gun cabinet open and taking them.

JBaxter

08-02-2005, 07:47 AM

I grew up with guns in our house. My father ( really whole family) were hunters w/ a few in law enforcement. We had ( my parents still do) have a gun safe ( combination w/ key) in the great room. All the handguns have trigger locks. My father was very very careful about unloading outside and gave us SOOOOO many speaches on gun safety ( he also helped with DNR hunter safety courses which were given in grade school--yea I grew up in a very rural area) I think when I was small I was truely afraid of the guns I knew never to touch them . Age 12 in our state you can get a hunting permit 10 if you go with an adult ( scary huh). Dad always said there alot of dead and injured people from a unloaded gun.
Jeana

KBecks

08-02-2005, 08:35 AM

I think this is a matter of common sense and taking care of children's safety.

DH has hunting rifles and I come from a family of hunters. Having the next generation of boys come up and learn to hunt/shoot, etc is a rite of passage and it is a special bond between the males on both sides of our family.

Alek will most likely learn gun safety at 12 and I think that's good.
If he doesn't want to, that's also OK.

I am more concerned about irresponsible handgun use -- there is less training for handguns, IMHO, and less reason to own one / keep one around.

I learned to shoot a BB gun at around 10 and it was fun, BTW. My Dad taught me and it was a special time for us to practice shooting targets.

crayonblue

08-02-2005, 08:37 AM

I always said I never wanted a gun in the house but after the attempted break-in last year, DH said, "The whole time I was crouching in the kitchen with a BROOM, I was thinking that I really should have a gun to protect my family." Whatever the statistics, when faced with protecting his family, I would rather my DH have a gun than a broom. DH grew up with a law enforcement father and learned gun safety from a very young age. He knows how to use a gun, how to store a gun and how to teach gun safety. We haven't gone as far as to buy a gun yet but after finding our back gate lock broken recently and two neighbors being broken into, it is a thought.

My ILs still have guns (safely locked up) and to say that we won't go to their house because they have guns would not work. They live 7 hours away in the middle of farm country and there are NO hotels nearby. For those of you so adamant about not staying with a gun in the house, what would you do. Not visit? Demand they remove the gun? I am far more worried about Lauren being jumped on by their dog and ending up in the ER (happened last visit) than I am about guns that they have safely put away.

Does anyone think that it would be punishing the children of law enforcers to say your child cannot play at their house? I know you can always invite them over, but it's not the same. I am FAR more concerned about my child being sexually abused at someone else's house than shot.

We had this discussion last year- I think Flagger started the thread.

I respect everyone's views on this. We all have our no compromise areas.

ddmarsh

08-02-2005, 09:25 AM

thomma

08-02-2005, 09:53 AM

We will never have guns in our house. However, my brother has guns in his house. No ammo and they are locked up safely. We visit every week but I'm with my kids and they don't go where the guns are. I live in a rural area where hunting is a sport for many. The concerns raised about my kids visiting a house with guns without me are valid and something I hadn't really thought about yet.
Honestly, for me, I'm more afraid of being outside during hunting season. It's not uncommon to see hunters walking down my road with guns.

Kim
t&e 5/03

ribbit1019

08-02-2005, 09:58 AM

We do not have a gun in our home. DH and I have discussed it and we choose not to have one. Guns make me nervous, they always have. DH knows how to use a gun, and went hunting at an early age, but saw it as a pointless sport and stopped going.

My parents have a hand gun that is locked in their bedroom and FIL has several hunting rifles as well as two handguns. I make sure that I know this information. We could not avoid going to their houses.

Most likely I will inquire with DD friends parents when the time comes, but she will still be allowed to play there as I only would trust her to go to homes with other safety precautions taken as well.

But ITA that any danger that my child might be in while I am not around is a concern for me, guns, sexual abuse, physical abuse are all realities we have to deal with, we just have to do our best to protect our children the best way we know how. If avoid friend's homes that have guns makes mom feel better, then I say go for it.

That said, if a 6 yr old got to that gun, quite obviously it was not secured as it should have been. That alone angers me. Caution and responsibility is very important when you have any dangerous weapon in the house of ANY kind.

Christy
Maddy - walking finally!

http://lilypie.com/baby2/040609/3/4/0/-5/.png
http://lilypie.com/days/060301/4/0/0/-5/.png

marinkitty

08-02-2005, 09:59 AM

Rachel - ITA and think you put it very well. We have this issue with my brother - it is unfortunate that my kids will never be able to visit his house without me or DH present, but I can live with the fact that it ticks my brother off and he thinks I am an overprotective nut since it means my kids will not end up hurt or worse by one of his guns. I respect his right to have them, but expect him (and any other parents who have guns in their homes) to respect my viewpoint as well. This is one reason why (among others, although I love and respect my brother very much) my brother is also not my children's guardian even though he is DH's and my only sibling.

We had a gun in our house growing up (a revolver my uncle who was a policeman at one point gave my father) and I hate to admit that it was in a zippered leather case, unloaded but with ammo in the case with it, in the top of my dad's closet. I am CERTAIN that if you asked my parents (neither of whom ever used the gun, not sure why they kept it) if it was secure, they would have said yes. The fact that my brother and I got it out on occassion illustrates clearly that it was not, and that is why I cannot just assume that another parent's view that a gun is secure means that it actually is.

Holly
Mom to Mia (3.17.03) and baby brother Jack (3.23.05)

slknight

08-02-2005, 10:13 AM

>Honestly, for me, I'm more afraid of being outside during
>hunting season. It's not uncommon to see hunters walking down
>my road with guns.

I commonly see hunters walking with guns down the roads here too. When I first moved here, I about fainted the first time I saw one because I grew up in a very urban area. We have 80 acres of woods behind our house, and although it's posted as a no-hunting area, it still concerns me.

Rachels

08-02-2005, 11:00 AM

I agree. I have a pool at my house, and I assume that if we were to remain in this house indefinitely, there would be parents who would be reluctant to let their children play here because of that. I could look at that as punishing Abigail, but I don't. I look at it, as Debbie said, as parents making safety choices that feel right and important to their families. There may be times when it's inconvenient or even frustrating, but I would never expect another parent to make concessions on safety values because of how I choose to live my particular life, kwim?

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)

"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

murpheyblue

08-02-2005, 11:22 AM

ITA. As a person who has never been exposed to guns (no hunters or law enforcement in the family) they simply terrify me. There will never be a gun in my house and I would have very serious reservations about DD playing at a house that I knew had guns. Fortunately, where I live (very liberal area) there are not a lot of guns.

Concern about break ins is one my hang-ups so we have deadlocked doors, an alarm system, and a cordless phone next to our bed to call 911. I don't believe that a gun would offer my family more protection without greatly increasing the risk of an unintended tragedy.

jkpalotay

08-02-2005, 11:26 AM

This is in response to the last three or four pp's:

When you have a gun safe, esp. a fingerprint acess one, it is simple and fast to gain access to it when needed. I agree that once the burgler/intruder is already in your bedroom (or wherever you are) that it would be stupid and dangerous to go after your gun then. And just because I said that it is important to teach kids gun safety doesn't mean that I wouldn't make sure that the guns were completly locked up and inaccesable. I want to know that my children know the basic rules of gun safety, not only for my own home, but for whatever else they may encounter later in life, despite my vigilant protection.

The fact of life for us is, when living out in the country, it can take the police between 5 and 20 minutes to arrived when called. It just takes them that long to get out there, esp. if they are already on another call. They do a great job, but that's a long time to wait if someone's in your home. You just can't depend on the police as your sole protection all the time. It's important to have a back-up plan as well.

We had a scare just last winter. While hanging out with my DS and DH, I saw a man walking in our fenced in back yard, only about 10 feet from the french doors. We had always talked about what we would do if something happened, and it worked well. I took DS upstairs with me, and we locked ourselves in the master bedroom while calling the police. My DH, who is super-experienced with gun safelty, released our large dog to roam through the (large) house, and went to investigate. After the police arrived, they walked around the perimeter of the property quietly, (no lights or sirens to scare the guy away), and then came into talk to us. They never did find him.

I'm not going to say that everyone should have a gun in their house, because I don't think that's right or appropriate for everyone. And NO ONE should have a gun for protection or any other reason who is not comfortable handling one, and who has been properly trained.

I know that this is another one of those subjects that we will all have to agree to disagree on. Please no flames, everybody in America has a right to their own opinions, even if you don't happen to agree with them.

khakismom

08-02-2005, 11:27 AM

Maybe it's because I've had a gun pointed in my face and in my back (I was robbed at gunpoint outside my apartment), but I will NEVER own a gun and refuse to allow them in my house.

squimp

08-02-2005, 11:57 AM

I agree that it's about getting to know people and being confident that you can trust them. So for me it is a broader trust issue.

There are so many dangerous things to be concerned about, swimming pools, tools, electrical equipment, chemicals, drugs, etc. Statistically some of these things are more harmful than guns, I imagine. I cannot single out guns, in part because I live in a outdoorsy culture, so lots of folks have guns for hunting or fieldwork. So I'm learning that seeking trust and safety is all part of parenting.

christic

08-02-2005, 12:57 PM

Has anyone here read Freakonomics? According to the authors pools at our homes are statistically more dangerous than guns in homes. Here's a snip of an op-ed one of the authors wrote about it:

***
Whatâ€™s more dangerous: a swimming pool or a gun?

When it comes to children, there is no comparison: a swimming pool is 100 times more deadly.

In 1997 alone (the last year for which data are available), 742 children under the age of 10 drowned in the United States last year alone.

Approximately 550 of those drownings â€“ about 75 percent of the total â€“ occurred in residential swimming pools.

According to the most recent statistics, there are about six million residential pools, meaning that one young child drowns annually for every 11,000 pools.

About 175 children under the age of 10 died in 1998 as a result of guns.

About two-thirds of those deaths were homicides.

There are an estimated 200 million guns in the United States.

Doing the math, there is roughly one child killed by guns for every one million guns.

Thus, on average, if you both own a gun and have a swimming pool in the backyard, the swimming pool is about 100 times more likely to kill a child than the gun is.

***

These are the same authors that wrote some very controversial stuff about car seat safety so I don't know how these stats would stand up to closer scrutiny. For example they're comparing residential pools (1 to a house presumably) to the total universe of guns in the US (some of which might be locked up in police stations?). But it is interesting in that I think we have bigger fears of some statistically unlikely events because they sound really REALLY scary--like child abduction. And then don't worry as much as we probably ought to about the more mundane--driving in cars with our children (even with carseats) is probably the most dangerous thing any of us do.

Chris

Rachels

08-02-2005, 01:14 PM

I don't really get the either / or thing, though. We have a pool, and we've put in three layers of locked fencing and will likely move before she hits elementary school. It scares me to pieces and we're INCREDIBLY careful. I'm also extremely concerned about guns. The problem with comparisons and stats like these is that they suggest that you should pick one major thing to worry about and let the rest go. I don't agree with that. I think that anything that presents a major safety concern for my child is worthy of my time and attention, regardless of where it falls on the scale of dangerous things.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)

"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

AngelaS

08-02-2005, 02:13 PM

I grew up in a house with guns. They were locked in a cabinet in the corner of the dining room. I knew where the key was. I never touched it. I had a very healthy fear of dad's guns.

Dh has a gun too. I know where it is, where the ammo is and how to load it. I could use it if I had to.

My oldest knows where it is too. She will not touch it. She has been taught that she is NEVER to touch a gun and to RUN if she's somewhere and someone shows her one. She also knows that stupid people die.

We cannot act like guns do not exist or that our kids will never ever see one up close. Like so many other things we have to TEACH our children right and wrong. Just keeping whatever it is we don't want them to deal with away from them is not going to protect them forever.

aliceinwonderland

08-02-2005, 02:16 PM

"She also knows that stupid people die"

Clearly, it's not just stupid people that die, but 2 year olds as well.

i am ALL for gun safety, and for children to be taught about safey as soon as they can understand, but this discussion it seems focuses on small children that do not well understand the action/consequence and the magnitude of their actions (even if they were able to control their curiosity).

ddmarsh

08-02-2005, 03:48 PM

>We cannot act like guns do not exist or that our kids will
>never ever see one up close. Like so many other things we
>have to TEACH our children right and wrong. Just keeping
>whatever it is we don't want them to deal with away from them
>is not going to protect them forever.

Well then by this line of reasoning we should also expose them to child molesters, fire and a whole host of other safety concerns. I don't think this is a matter of right and wrong but one of safety. Obviously guns hold such an allure based upon the sheer numbers of accidents, that telling them to stay away does not always work.

I read Freakanomics and am very concerned with the way that chapter winds up minimizing the gun issue. I understand his intellectual point, but like Rachel do not view it as an either/or situation. I also have been very upset over the chapter on car seats and the myriad interviews he has given on that information.

alexsmommy

08-02-2005, 03:50 PM

Rachel,
In general, ITA, however, through personal experience I had to rethink the never letting my child play at someone's house thing. DH used to be a police officer. There were nights when he worked a double shift at one site, came home for one shift and went back to a different site (he worked for a university with more than one campus) and he wasn't able to leave his gun at the precinct. He did avoid this whenever possible, but it probably happened four or five times. So, there were nights a gun was in the house. It was in a lock box on a high self in a closet, and the bullets were in a separate lock box, in the trunk of his car. If another parent asked me, I would have disclosed this information since I hate guns. DH insisted I learn how to unload it b/c as he put it, "everyone screws up in life and if something ever happened and I realized there was a loaded gun in the house you have to know how to disarm it." I hated touching the thing. So personally, I had to reconcile my aversion and negative feelings about this with realizing I would have to look at each individual situation. I have to admit that I would have been very hurt for my stepdaughter if after this explanation someone would not let their child in my home. I am more gun paranoid than a lot of people. So for me, I would want to know WHY someone may have a gun in the home, and whether the bullets were kept in the same place.
DH has since changed careers and the first thing I did was tell him to get anything related to guns and/or bullets out of our home. The personal experience did, however, open me up to at least listening to someone's explanation. Personally, I am no comfortable with people keeping guns in the house for "personal safety", and my kids will not be allowed to stay in a home where this is the reason. My personal feeling is, if the gun is accessible enough to keep your family safe, it's too accessible for me. That is my personal opinion and I respect other's right to do what they want in their own home.
Mmm, I think this is my first somewhat controvesial post...
Alaina
Alex 2-4-03

Calmegja2

08-02-2005, 04:17 PM

ITA with Eri and Debbie. Can't say it any better than that.

In the original scenario, the 2 year old is not stupid. Unfortunate accidents happen all the time, and innocent, quite intelligent people get caught in the crossfire. Quite literally.

barbarhow

08-02-2005, 05:47 PM

Eri-I so agree with you. It is a fact that young children have NO concept/understanding of death, thus to teach them the danger of guns is of questionnable value.
Furthermore curiosity is a normal childhood attribute-unfortunately it is curiosity that causes many of the accidents, not stupidity.
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

nov02mom

08-02-2005, 07:44 PM

I totally understand what you're saying, because I would be a whole lot more worried about your pool than I would about our guns. I guess it would highly offend me for any of my mommy friends to say "Oh, we can't come to your house because ya'll have guns." I am always very open about our situation, and am willing to show people exactly how safe they are. The reason we have guns is because my DH and his late father had one thing in common- they liked to shoot. After he died- we inherited all of his handguns/rifles. I'm not that comfortable around them, and we had to come to some agreement before Jacob got here.
Our guns are:
1- unloaded
2- locked with individual trigger locks where possible
3- locked in gun safes
4- ammo locked in yet another safe
5- room is locked
6- Jon keeps the keys to all of the above at his office- 40 miles away
Overkill? Maybe! I feel very safe in my house though even with my very inquisitive 2 year old. I figure if I can't get into the room, he can't! Why would another person not feel the same way?

christic

08-02-2005, 07:54 PM

>I read Freakanomics and am very concerned with the way that
>chapter winds up minimizing the gun issue. I understand his
>intellectual point, but like Rachel do not view it as an
>either/or situation. I also have been very upset over the
>chapter on car seats and the myriad interviews he has given on
>that information.
>

I think it's a difference in interpretation. I didn't come away from reading that thinking we should treat a gun in the house with the same nonchalant attitude as a pool party, but that we should treat a pool party with the same gravity as a gun in the house, kwim? I've often heard people say they would never let their child play at a house where there was a gun but I've never ever heard anyone say that about a pool. So I also find the either/or issue troubling but from the other side. Personally I'd like to see handguns banned AND the type of pool security Rachel's installed as standard.

I also found the information on carseats to be the most convincing argument I've ever read for built-in carseats/boosters. I find it shocking that with our children's safety on the line we settle for an add-on product with an 80% user failure rate. I didn't read that section and think I should throw out my daughter's carseat. I read it and wanted something better.

C99

08-02-2005, 08:16 PM

>Does anyone think that it would be punishing the children of
>law enforcers to say your child cannot play at their house? I
>know you can always invite them over, but it's not the same. I
>am FAR more concerned about my child being sexually abused at
>someone else's house than shot.

This issue came up in last year's thread. One of my good friends (on the BBB and IRL) is married to a police officer. It didn't even occur to me that there would be a gun in her home, so we talked about it after this came up last time. I fully trust her explanation about it and, more to the point, I trust her and her husband. They've watched Nate a couple of times for me and I would not hesitate to leave Nate w/ them again in the future. However, that is about the only exception to guns-in-the-house that I would make as I do not believe in the strict interpretation of the second amendment. But police officers wouldn't have to have guns if everyone else didn't either.

AngelaS

08-02-2005, 08:24 PM

I should explain myself better. "Stupid people die" is an expression we use around our house to help us remember to think before acting.

I honestly don't worry about my girls messing with a gun. I do worry about child molestors. We've discussed that as well.

kath68

08-02-2005, 10:05 PM

I've come to this thread late, but it has me thinking, oddly enough, about abstinence.

I am likely to make everyone angry by saying what I am about to say, but here goes: it seems to me that the same argument people make about "kids should be taught about guns" is the same argument that people make that "kids should be taught about safe sex" -- both can have very serious repercussions and both require people to be informed about how to "use" them responsibly. Ironically, the people making each of the arguments come from opposite political views, and they reject the other's position about teaching about guns/sex very strongly. You'd think that "teaching kids responsibility" would not change depending upon your politics. If you think kids should be taught about guns for safety reasons, shouldn't you also want kids to know about condoms, even if you never want the kid to have premarital sex?

And not to let the liberal-minded (like myself) off the hook, if you want kids to be educated about safe-sex, shouldn't you also endorse kids learning how to safely handle a gun, even though you never want your kid to fire a gun?

You often hear premarital sex compared to a loaded gun. Given the current discussion, I think the comparison is apt.

That said, "fire away" at the above thoughts. I am genuinely curious what people think.

aliceinwonderland

08-02-2005, 10:48 PM

"And not to let the liberal-minded (like myself) off the hook, if you want kids to be educated about safe-sex, shouldn't you also endorse kids learning how to safely handle a gun, even though you never want your kid to fire a gun?"

Well, I'm about as liberal as they come, and I could not agree more with this. My DS will be taken out to the cornfields of Indiana and be taught about the seriousness of the gun matter and how to properly handle one as soon as he is old enough. FWIW, even though I will not allow guns in my house, even the historical artifacts DH is likely to inherit, the fact is FIL has guns in his house, properly locked and also no ammo whatsoever in the house (I think he keeps them as relics). And I of course let my son into that house, but there will be further conversations as he gets older and more indipendent.

My mantra, with parenting and everything else is "everything in moderation"--this is the approach we will take with alcohol, sex ed, etc.

kristine_elen

08-02-2005, 11:06 PM

Did I miss where in that story about the guy in your yard that you actually got the gun out?

squimp

08-02-2005, 11:12 PM

I think the comparisons and stats are useful. I learned something - I didn't hear "either/or" I heard relative risk. Guns, swimming pools, cars, etc. etc. are all dangerous at some level. I understand why people single out guns. I understand that a lot of folks are just freaked out by guns, and some aren't. They're scary.

One family's layers of safety about the swimming pool may be equivalent to another's layers of safety for their guns. But they are both fallible. And so it really comes down to people as individuals. I guess I just know so many people who have guns because of hunting or work, and they are responsible people and some of them are friends and I trust them. The point is that in order for you to leave your children in someone else's house, you really have to be convinced that you can trust the person with that responsibility.

luvbeinmama

08-03-2005, 12:22 AM

And yet, you HAVE a swimming pool, and are extremely careful about making it secure. I have guns in my house and am extremely careful about making them secure. I would most likely trust you to keep my child safe from your pool (given we knew each other irl and were good friends), despite the fact that my sister drowned in a friends' pool at 2 yo. But you would not return the trust. THAT is the issue that offends gun owners. I guess the next question would be... Would you leave your daughter at a friends house that had a properly secure pool? Because the issue is not which dangerous item we have at our house, but how we keep the children safe from said dangerous item. Is it not?

luvbeinmama

08-03-2005, 12:40 AM

>Well then by this line of reasoning we should also expose them
>to child molesters, fire and a whole host of other safety
>concerns. I don't think this is a matter of right and wrong
>but one of safety. Obviously guns hold such an allure based
>upon the sheer numbers of accidents, that telling them to stay
>away does not always work.

Well the difference in your first example of exposing them to child molesters is a bad comparison, because you are comparing a tool (gun) which does not think, to a person (child molester) who does and WANTS to harm a child.

And as for your second example, yes, they should and are at a reasonable age, taught by every one of us to deal with fire. Have a gas stove? Use a bbq? Go camping and have a campfire? Hmmm... seems like fire safety is being taught, and at a very young age, but age appropriately. AND you are very careful about how they handle it and when. Why is teaching about gun safety so different? Yes, it is a very dangerous tool. I'd rather teach my kids than leave them ignorant. Ignorance is bliss until you are faced with that thing you are ignorant of. Far better that my kids know what they are facing and learn to fear, not the tool itself, but, potentially, the user of the tool. Age appropriately, of course.

luvbeinmama

08-03-2005, 12:59 AM

Ask them to show you where the guns are kept. Personally, our handguns are in a safe with a combo lock that is NOT written down, and only DH & I know the combo (DH set the combo himself). We have a shotgun that is locked with a key, and the key is in the handgun safe. I have a problem with keyed gun safes in that keys are too often found by curious kids (the reason the key to the shotgun is in the handgun safe). I prefer a combo lock as long as it is NOT written anywhere, or as a PP said, a fingerprint lock. Decide what you are comfortable with.

Ask whether the guns are loaded or unloaded and where the ammo is kept. Again, decide if you are comfortable with how the ammo is stored.

As for the burglar. How did he get the guns out? Did he bust the cabinet to get to it? Chances are your curious children would not do this. The only way to know how secure anyone's guns are is to see where they are stored personally. Again, how comfortable you are with how they are stored is totally up to you. People's definition of "a secure gun" can differ widely. It's a judgement call.

HTH!

luvbeinmama

08-03-2005, 01:21 AM

Yes, and you can probably bet that those owners that have their own gun used against them, were not training regularly with them, and were unwilling to use the weapon they were brandishing. OR they were not securely stored. Either situation is unacceptable if you have guns in the home and intend to use them for self-protection. No one should EVER brandish a weapon they cannot bring themself to use. That is just asking for trouble. And we've already been discussing the storing securely issue.

bostonsmama

08-03-2005, 02:22 AM

It's so true (all the reasons why some gun-owners have their own guns used against them). Many of the non-gun-nut owners aren't prepared to use a gun to shoot and kill, shoot and wound, or shoot towards an intruder. My DH, who has a conceal and carry permit, will often keep his gun on him when we go out. The one thing he always told me, though, was that you should NEVER bring out a gun if you don't want to shoot and kill someone. He's not saying that you have to kill someone when you point a gun at someone, but it comes with the understanding that guns escalate violence, and you may be "forced" to shoot and kill. That's why when it comes to defense purposes many reluctant gun owners second-guess themselves and delay to the point that they become a target/victim.

I didn't come from a family of gun-owners like my DH did, so I was initially VERY hesitant about having them in the home. Now, not only do we have one gun, but we have five! Their safety depends on me being able to load, unload, clean, store and fire them. A shotgun is way different from a hand-gun. Inexperienced users can jam semi-automatic weapons (like the Ruger we have...which I did jam when I went to check the chamber to see if it was loaded)...and that can cost people in a home-invasion.

To answer the questions about "how can you use the home-invasion argument if the gun is safely locked away enough to render it inaccessible to children?" I will say the following. It depends on the gun-owner. My DH's best friend (who just had his first son this Spring) keeps a cocked and loaded glock in his fingerprint-locked safe. He also has a friggin arsenal of ammo and other guns in another safe by his bed. I don't think kids would ever get inside...but God love them if they did! We, OTOH, only keep our Ruger P89 loaded with hollowpoints (but with the safety on), whereas the revolver needs to be loaded and so does the shotgun. We keep the ammo separate under lock and key (note: ammo alone and guns alone can't hurt anyone...unless you pistol-whip them). Perhaps we're less safe from an invasion stand-point (although it wouldn't take me more than 10 seconds to get to the gun and flip off the safety and fire), but we're certainly more protected from curiuos children who wander through our house on occassion.

When my DH deploys, he wants me to keep a loaded gun in the nightstand, which absolutely is against my comfort zone, so instead I keep them locked up. I would never advocate anyone keeping guns in the home...but for those who do via law enforcement, military, hunting, or personal protection, making sure guns and ammo are separately stored, safeties are ON, and keys/passwords are inaccessible is the most important thing.

Larissa
who is still trying to give birth so she can have more to say

AngelaS

08-03-2005, 06:12 AM

I had the same thought---gun safety and safe sex. My daughter has been/will be taught "hands off!!" since I believe firmly in both the right to bear arms and abstinence. :D

Rachels

08-03-2005, 06:23 AM

No. The fact that you would feel safe with a well-protected pool does not automatically mean that I would feel safe with well-protected guns. It's not a trade-off for the sake of manners. You do what you feel most comfortable with. Like I said, we got our house (with pool) well before we had a baby, and we've gone out of our way to make it as safe as humanly possible. I didn't do that to convince people to trust me-- I did it because I live here, and I have to do what makes me feel safest about my particular child. But I still have plenty of nervousness. If you chose not to let your child be here in your absence, that wouldn't offend me. Pools are dangerous and you have to do what feels safe to you. Likewise, if you DID choose to leave your child here, that wouldn't suddenly mean that guns in the house were okay with me. Nor would it mean that I don't trust you. It would mean that I don't like guns and don't want my child around one, period. I'd still rather offend a gun owner than do something that feels to me to be compromising my daughter's safety, especially just for the sake of not offending somebody.

But I don't think the offense makes sense. Every parent does what they can to insure their child's safety, and some of us will have different buttons than others. If there are going to be things that concern you about your own child, how can you not respect the concern of another parent, even if it's not your particular issue?

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)

"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

crayonblue

08-03-2005, 06:43 AM

Hee! Hee! Right there with you Angela!

ddmarsh

08-03-2005, 06:54 AM

>But I don't think the offense makes sense. Every parent does
>what they can to insure their child's safety, and some of us
>will have different buttons than others. If there are going
>to be things that concern you about your own child, how can
>you not respect the concern of another parent, even if it's
>not your particular issue?

ITA. The defensive and offense leaves me puzzled. We are likely to put a pool in the next couple of years and I would never in a million years anything but empathy and respect if someone were concerned about having their child over.

ddmarsh

08-03-2005, 06:59 AM

>I think it's a difference in interpretation. I didn't come
>away from reading that thinking we should treat a gun in the
>house with the same nonchalant attitude as a pool party, but
>that we should treat a pool party with the same gravity as a
>gun in the house, kwim? I've often heard people say they would
>never let their child play at a house where there was a gun
>but I've never ever heard anyone say that about a pool. So I
>also find the either/or issue troubling but from the other
>side. Personally I'd like to see handguns banned AND the type
>of pool security Rachel's installed as standard.
>
>I also found the information on carseats to be the most
>convincing argument I've ever read for built-in
>carseats/boosters. I find it shocking that with our children's
>safety on the line we settle for an add-on product with an 80%
>user failure rate. I didn't read that section and think I
>should throw out my daughter's carseat. I read it and wanted
>something better.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I can completely understand and appreciate the intellectual arguments he is conveying on these issues. My concern is related more to how it will be heard and interpreted by the public at large. I saw him interviewed on the Today Show and felt that his point about the booster seats came as more of an afterthought in the interview rather than the focus.

>
>

ddmarsh

08-03-2005, 07:21 AM

>Well the difference in your first example of exposing them to
>child molesters is a bad comparison, because you are comparing
>a tool (gun) which does not think, to a person (child
>molester) who does and WANTS to harm a child.

Actually no. The argument as stated was that they should be exposed to and taught about dangerous things. Obviously I was not serious in my suggestion, but the analogy is a valid one nonetheless.

I think it's fine if anyone chooses to have a gun, campfire, etc. and teach their children about the safety of them. By the same token, we are simply saying that we simply choose to keep our children away from those things, no one's suggesting you must do the same.

ethansmom

08-03-2005, 07:24 AM

Thanks!

As for the burglar, yes, they broke the gun cabinet. However, I think it had a glass front in the door, but I'm not sure.

I didn't even know they had fingerprint safes - sounds like a great idea.

Calmegja2

08-03-2005, 08:04 AM

Yes, it is a very dangerous tool. I'd
>rather teach my kids than leave them ignorant. Ignorance is
>bliss until you are faced with that thing you are ignorant of.
>

***

Let's not assume that those of of us who choose no involvement with guns are having their children remain ignorant. My kids know about guns, what guns can do, and have a plan for dealing with a gun, should they come across one.

They are far from ignorant, but I don't see how handling a gun, age appropriately of course, will somehow enhance their safety.

Debbie's example is straight on. You can teach about scary things without actually putting your child in that situation.

Calmegja2

08-03-2005, 08:10 AM

I agree. Information is power. I have with my older children, and will with my younger children, always give me them reams of information and education on subjects, especially difficult subjects,

Gun safety? Absolutely, though we will not be actually shooting a gun, we can still discuss it, explain it, and in no way will it ever be the elephant in the room that we don't discuss or talk about.

Same with sex education.

Knowledge is power. I would hope that everyone here would expect that no matter what side of the line you fall on with respect to guns that education and knowledge is key. I've told my kids what to do if they see a gun, what a gun can do (and we had a police officer who is a a friend get specific with them), as well as the fact that most guns in homes are used to hurt the people in the homes, so just because you're in ahouse, doesn't make you safe.

christic

08-03-2005, 06:29 PM

It seems less about clarity and more about different appearances on the Today show ;). I haven't seen the authors on tv so not sure how they come off, but I had read a transcript from one of the author's appearances on Today before my last post. At least here he was very clear both that car seat laws should be obeyed and that integrated car seats were the ultimate goal.

http://www.freakonomics.com/2005/07/if-you-were-watching-today-show-you.html

But reading it again after your post above it seems there was another appearance that I haven't seen or read about (this one seemed a response to the first) and that this interview wasn't even seen in most of the country.

jamierush

08-03-2005, 07:39 PM

Whether or not you chose to have a gun in your house is really irrelevant in the issue of teaching gun safety to children.

The pp comment that the people who are talking about gun safety are the same that teach their kids about safe sex is really not even anywhere close. I would be willing to bet that the majority of parents who teach gun safety early and regularly probably are conservatives who teach abstinence over safe sex, while those proponents of teaching safe sex probably most identify with more liberal viewpoints...but then again this is not about politics. It is about teaching kids while you have them as a very captive audience the importantance of what to do when they come across a weapon of any kind, be it a handgun, rifle or even a toy gun.

Proper gun safety is not taught with a weapon. Many of you are confusing teaching gun safety with teaching proper gun handling. There is a huge difference.

Gun Safety is simply teaching young children the following steps:

STOP
DON'T TOUCH
LEAVE THE ROOM
TELL AN ADULT

These 4 steps are part of the Eddie Eagle safety program developed by the NRA and recognized nationally by many school systems, law enforcement, and children's organizations. ( as much as it probably pains the NEA to align with the NRA LOL *trying to interject a little humor here* )

These simple 4 steps are simple and short enough for very young children (pre-k and up) to understand and react to. It is explaining to your kids early the difference between make believe that they are exposed to on TV, movies, video games and the playground AND the reality that guns are dangerous and should never, never be handled without an adult present.

I noticed many of you mentioned that you tell your kids not to touch a gun, but that not teaching them the final 2 steps could leave them in a room with their friends who might chose to actually pick up a gun, that could lead to harm to your child. So please drill into them to leave the room and get an adult.

As far as letting your children visit homes that do chose to own guns, for hunting, target sport or protection; that is very understandable and it is your right.

For those of you who don't own guns, I would still highly encourage you to check with your local schools, law enforcement or even the NRA web site (look for the eddie eagle link) to get free age appropriate materials to help you talk to your kids about gun safety.

Accedental gun deaths of children under the age of 12 is actually lower than it was 20+ years ago. Yes, there will always be tragic, senseless deaths but if more people talk regularly with their kids about gun safety(not gun handling)as they do about drugs the rate will continue to be lowered.

smomom

08-03-2005, 09:20 PM

Thanks so much for this Caroline. DH has just started a new career in federal law enforcement. Once he completes his 4 months of training there will be a gun in our home - currently there is not. After reading some of these posts I was afraid that our sons will not have any friends allowed to come over to our house to play. I hate to think that some kids would not be allowed in our house simply because of my DH's career. After all, his choice to fight against drugs and crime is the only reason the gun will exist in our home. I don't see that us or our kids should be globally black-balled because of that.

It's nice to know that you would consider who the parents are and your own rational opinion of how safe the weapon would be in the home. I know for a fact that his service revolver will be extremely secure.

jkpalotay

08-03-2005, 10:41 PM

Sorry, (mommy-brain), Yes. My DH let the dog out in the house, and unlocked one of the safes. He then took the gun w/him while he went to quietly check out the situation. He also turned all the lights out upstairs as he went, so he could see outside, and whoever could not see inside. We assumed later that he was just scoping out the house that night, perhaps for a later break-in... Yikes.

Anyways, here's one more important safety tip:

We always try to remember to bring our cell phone in with us at night, and keep it by the bed. I'm sure we've all heard the horror stories of burglers/killers cutting the phone lines before entering the house. (BTK...) It's just another added safety measure. :)