Updated: Help, please, what would you do about a preschool bully?

[alkagift]

Last night at girls-night-out, I found out about the neighborhood bully. He's two years old! He belongs to our playgroup, which I just joined, but I haven't met him yet. The other moms in the group told me that they're horrified at his behavior. He hits every child he sees, pulls hair hard, picks up objects and strikes babies on the head with them, etc., with NO provocation. When he doesn't get his way he lashes out, kicks and screams, full-on physical tantrum. His mother thinks this is "normal" two year old behavior and does nothing to correct him, other than saying "please don't do that" which does, of course, nothing. At the last playgroup he attended, which was another child's first birthday, every child, including all the boys (some as old as 3), ended up in tears.

Long introduction to get the full picture, but here's my problem--I think he's going to be in Matthew's part-time preschool class this year. Matt is a little afraid of other kids as it is, I wanted him in preschool to help his socialization skills. I don't know what's going to happen if he gets hit and then completely refuses to go again. I want to call the teacher now and ask her if the bully's going to be in the class. If so, should I try to find some other place to put Matthew in preschool? I don't know that there are any openings now, though, it's pretty late.

The other mom that used to have her son in the same preschool says that the teachers are experienced and won't put up with the behavior, so I shouldn't pull Matthew out of the school which otherwise has a *wonderful* reputation and is right across the street. Frankly, though, if a kid is that out of control, no teacher can "fix" it only seeing him 8 hours a week.

Please, please give me some ideas on what to do.


Allison
Mommy to Matthew, who is TWO!

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[saschalicks]

Allison,
I know this must be tough, but you have to trust the school and teachers to act appropriately. I know that if he doesn't shape up many schools will ask the parents to stop bringing this kid back. I've heard of that happening. If it is a good school you'll see they'll take care of it. I'd trust your friend and not worry too much. Ya right us mommies not worry!

[toomanystrollers]

Yes, the teachers are experienced to handle bully behavior. I'm sure the preschool has a policy that will ultimately remove this child if his behavior does not improve. My son had a classmate removed from his school this year (a first in our school's history sadly).

I would not remove Matthew from this class. There is always going to be a difficult child in every group/class of kids - every year. Rather than remove any "obstacles", Matthew will learn how to handle such "obstacles".

HTH

[brigmaman]

I agree with the other mom whose son also attended your preschool. If there is a problem, the teachers should spot it immediately and deal with it. If it is a private preschool (which I assume it is since it's a nursery program) then persistent problems could even lead to the child being asked to leave. This was the case at my nephew's preschool several years back. There was a little boy in his class whose behavior was not ok. Nothing changed and the boy's parents were asked to pull him out.
I know your instinct is to protect your ds and I can understand him being timid as Brig is. I too hope he benefits from the socialization at his new preschool this fall. :)

[deborah_r]

I think you should give the teachers a change to see how they handle it. It's possible that he will act totally differently when he is away from his mother. If he knows he can get away with it with her, but not at school, he might just behave entirely different depending on which rules he's operating under!

[kristine_elen]

That's horrible. It sounds like somehow the other parents should let this mom know her son's behavior is not normal. Obviously all 2 year olds act out, but it's our job to stop that behavior, not condone it.

I'd talk to the preschool teacher about your concerns. My son isn't in preschool yet (starts in the fall) but the director was telling me that they try to work with bullies but if no improvement happens, they will get kicked out of the school.

Good luck!

[kransden]

I wouldn't worry about him school. A good daycare teacher will teach him that "It's not ok!" to do XXXX. Unless the little boy wants to sit in time out all day, he'll shape up. Now I bet he'll be his typical terror self everywhere else. The other kids will learn to avoid him and the teachers will watch him so he can't hurt the other kids.

Karin and Katie 10/24/02

[mamato1]

Allison-

I agree with the PP's. Take it from a woman who is a counselor in a middle school. There is always going to be a "punk" out there no matter where your child is. I would not let this particular one stand between your child and what sounds like a great preschool. This could potentially be a great teaching tool for your kiddo. Keep an eye on things of course, but the teachers should handle anything inappropriate.

Chris

Mama to Brendan (aka Boomer) 01/04

http://lilypie.com/baby2/040116/0/1/3/-6/.png

[buddyleebaby]

They may not be able to "fix" it, but they should be able to keep it under control while he's in school.
I had several students who were terrors at home (and as soon as they were handed back to mom) but good as gold in my class.

[NEVE and TRISTAN]

I wish I knew...I don't know what I'd do honestly. I so hate to think of a two year old as a bully, but I have certainly seen Tristan bully for things he wants etc... so I know they exist.

But just wanted to chime in because I kind of just went thru this with an older bully...who to me clearly is a bully at that age. but R is in martial arts and a new kid who is 9 (R is only 6 and the youngest in the class by far) was bullying him. Steve was present but the kid just verbally harrassed Reichen...and then when the master said "Reichen we need to give you a warrior name (before he said his name was so cool he didn't need a warrior name)...the kid said "he can be mouse and I'll be cat...the cat eats the mouse"...

Well I have gone to two classes since and was going to nip that in the bud!!!!!! But the kid seems to have learned that my little "mouse" has outranked him on where they stand etc... so he seems to have shut up!!!!

So just wanted to chime in that I understand how you feel...
Neve
Reichen (6), Karsh (3), Tristan (2) and baby girl Bronwyn born March 10th!!!!

[alkagift]

It's so hard for me not to be the mama-lion and protect my sweetie! If I go to our playgroup and the bully is present, I don't know that I will be able to not say something to the mother. At the very least I'll want to buy her "1-2-3 Magic" and tell her she needs it! I'm pretty reserved normally, but if it's about my child, the Irish redhead comes to the front--no question about my position!

I'm glad that Reichen is standing on his own, it sounds like the Master is aware of it, too.

Allison
Mommy to Matthew, who is TWO!

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[erosenst]

I would also stick with the preschool you like. Unfortunately, there are kids in every school that you would rather not be around yours, and there's no way to control that. However, assuming it's a good private preschool, they can ask the child to leave if his behavior isn't appropriate to the level you're describing. We JUST (this week) went through this at Abby's daycare - a little girl (at 19 months!) has the history of being a bully. Abby was her latest target. There was a string of biting incidents a couple of months ago. The biter was asked to stay home for a week, hoping that it was related to teething. The issue resolved itself until this week, where she tried to bite at least twice, and succeeded once. The biter has until next week to find alternate daycare (just reread this - obviously, her parents have to find it! :)); in the interim, Abby and the biter will be in separate classrooms.

On a positive note - if the teachers are good, and "structured", he may quickly learn that this isn't appropriate behavior, and not have those issues while he's not with his mother who allows it. One can always hope...

[jd11365]

>There is alwaysgoing to be a difficult child in every group/class of kids - every year. Rather than remove any "obstacles", Matthew will learn how to handle such "obstacles".

Yep. I'm a teacher, and every year, we always had one student that was difficult. So, if it's not this boy, it will be another. You can certainly share your concerns with the teacher, but I would be general at first as not to single out a boy who hasn't yet threatened Matthew. We teachers know what we're doing to handle such situations. Strangely, it's easier to herd 20 kids than it is to herd my only child.

No worries mama!

[lisaE]

I would get together with your playgroup, maybe like a mom's night out, or somehow with no children around and discuss rules. I know that area MOMS clubs have rules like no hitting, if your child hits twice then you have to leave the playdate, etc.

My playgroup has a Yahoo group so it's easy to kick around ideas like that. There is probably a leader in your playgroup, either formally or informally, with whom you can discuss creating some rules/ guidelines. If no formal guidelines are in place, then the hitting is more of a difference in parenting philosophy. The "bully's" mom thinks it's age-appropriate, obviously, and none of the other moms think so.

It's something I never had thought about until recently, how your playgroup's parenting and discipline philosophies have to match your own. Good luck- I hope he never turns his attention to your DS!

[alkagift]

Thanks for everyone pitching in. I decided to call the teacher and express my concerns--this is a private school and this part-time program is a feeder group for their competitive PreK program, so she takes even two year olds pretty seriously. She was very sweet helpful, saying that she had 19 years experience and she understands why I would be concerned. Basically, she said the following things would be possible:

a) He'll respond immediately to correction, since he's looking for guidance (not likely)
b) He'll get put in timeout a lot while the other kids play and eventually will be so miserable that he will be "good" during school just so he can have some fun, but he'll still be a PITA at home (my word, not hers!)
c) He'll be in timeout nearly constantly to no avail and his parents will be asked to find another school.

She said, and I quote, "we do NOT put up with that kind of behaviour." She said she wouldn't let anyone bully the other children.

Thanks, Lisa, about the guidelines for playgroup--I know the moms haven't thought about that at all, but I would certainly agree to it. I know that all kids go through some phases when they don't understand what's appropriate. I wouldn't want to exclude all kids who have some transitory issues, but this kid is consistently out of bounds.

Thanks again, everyone!

Allison
Mommy to Matthew who is TWO!

[brigmaman]

Lol, what's the Irish Redhead mean? I'm one of those, too as is my mother. Well, maybe I can guess...;)

[houseof3boys]

Don't pull him out. Bullying and even "soft" bullying is a natural things for kids. Ryan is a pretty sweet kid but I have seen him hit a kid (softly) at school and at the gym just for attention. The other day when I picked him up from school, two very sweet little girls that are Matt and Ryan's age started pushing each other because they both wanted to sit on the left hand side of the bench. It is pretty natural behavior and since the school is so well rated, the teachers will handle that kind of aggression appropriately. I would certainly express that Matt is not used to aggressive kids and that you are concerned about it combined with a new school situation to adjust to.

If you see the meanie kid doing anything to anyone, I would not hesitate to say something to him like "we don't hit anyone, hitting hurts" (or whatever). I also think since you haven't met the kid before at your playgroup that you could naively say something to his mother about how some parents are slack about disciplining their children (in a nice way of course).

I'm happy you had a girls night out, btw! :)

[miki]

That's a great response from the teacher. I hope that eases your worries.

FWIW, ITA with Lisa about how important it is for the parents in your child's playgroup to share parenting philosophies. The kids get to know each other and the parents and see how the other parents respond to negative behavior. I think it's very helpful for my DD to see that the other kids get told to share and wait their turn just like I would say to her if she tried to take a toy another kid was playing with. And I can be confident that if I need to step away to use the restroom or something, DD will find she gets the same treatment even in my absence. I've been in playgroups where some of the parents think the kids can sort themselves out so they never intervene and I just think it gets kind of chaotic.

[June Mommy]

I'm going to be the lone dissenter and say I would really think twice about having Matthew in the same class as the known bully. I agree that the school sounds like they would take charge of the situation, but if it were my child, I wouldn't want him to have to be the 'guinea pig' so to speak. Meaning, obviously the bully would have to have acted out in order to be corrected, and I would not want my child to be the one to be hit, for the bully to be corrected. I say this since you mentioned that Matthew is already a little afraid of other kids and you want this as a positive socialization experience. I was very timid as a child, and when I encountered rough kids or 'bullies' it made me not want to go back to that situation, be it preschool or dance class. So I wouldn't want his first experience, the one that will shape the way he feels about such situations from now on, to possibly give him a negative connotation. Maybe if he were a little older and had already dealt with the same kind of situation, it would be different. But in this specific situation, I would look for another class.

But that's just me. I'm afraid I will be dealing with the opposite situation with my child. He's already kind of rough.