So many contradictions brought up by Katrina

[Sillygirl]

Hurricane refugees can stay in the Astrodome or other shelters. But the homeless family in Seattle or Chicago has no rights to shelter.

Prisoners in a locked hospital ward in New Orleans are evacuated while other, critically ill patients are left behind. Prisoners have a constitutionally protected right to health care. However, all other citizens do not.

The New Orleans evacuation plan was apparently written for people who own a car and are able to drive it for hours at a stretch. It seems not to have occurred to these folks that not everyone owns a car.

Our president thinks people who take water and food to feed their starving children (and they are starving, there are two dead babies in the Superdome tonight) should be prosecuted for breaking the law, because they are stealing.

I don't see how this country is going to last another twenty years without a replay of the French Revolution.

[aliceinwonderland]

saying there is no crisis/hungry people at the convention center--I mean those were his own words. And then the NPR reporter on site painted a very different picture of rape and death and squalor...And then the radio announcer said that *after* the interview the Secretary I guess received a memo updating him on the situation and, what the reporter said was true after all. So glad he got the memo.

[Calmegja2]

Oh, how I agree.

I just want to cry, out of frustration, anger, and outright fear for where we're headed.

I'm really trying to put my preconceived notions aside, and try to focus on the problem being solved, and what can be done to help steer us off this path we're on, but I don't see the way out. I don't know what's going to be done. And I have no faith in the current administration to do this.

Heck, when I read about the diverted funds that could have been used for shoring up the bayou and the levees, and the very likely damage that resulted from that diversion....

Sometimes, it's too much. Just too much.

**sucks thumb, rocks in corner**

[bostonsmama]

***DISCLAIMER*** Please disregard this post as it relates to the previous one about the convention center. But I will leave up my thoughts on a separate issue, the SuperDome crisis.

Well, there isn't a hunger crisis just yet ETA: at the SuperDome. They're getting two high-calorie meals per day (with the choice of spaghetti, thai chicken, or jambalaya), plus two bottles of water per person per day. They aren't starving...they're just in a war-zone of violence, chaos, anger and anarchy, with rival gangs shooting at each other, children getting raped in the dark of night, people urinating on themselves, cut and wounded individuals getting infected. It's not pretty. All that to say that I don't think the HS Chief was stupid, just not informed. And my anger grows by the moment, because it's not as if the rescuers aren't trying their hardest to help people. They've got 475 buses moving in and out of there every friggin day. But it takes a very long time to move over 60,000 people out of city....especially when they can't get in there because angry rioters are shooting AK-47s and M-16s at the people trying to save them!!! Frankly, I don't care what a gov official says to the press-that's all a dog/pony show-what I care about is what's actually being done....and it seems to me that the whole of this nation is trying its hardest.

We'll deal with partisan politics and administration judgments when it's all said and done. By then, hindsight will be a sparkling 20-20.

Larissa
who is still trying to give birth so she can have more to say

[Rachels]

I'm upset too that the federal government and FEMA didn't even know that there were a couple thousand people trapped in the convention center in New Orleans. They've had no food or water all week, and they're dying right there on the sidewalk.

The whole thing, and the terrible inequity of it, makes me want to scream.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

[Rachels]

Um, the Superdome isn't the only place people are stranded. There are people there who had no way to leave who haven't had water for four days. THAT is a crisis.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

[slknight]

>Well, there isn't a hunger crisis just yet. They're getting
>two high-calorie meals per day (with the choice of spaghetti,
>thai chicken, or jambalaya), plus two bottles of water per
>person per day. They aren't starving...

Larissa, I don't think this is true, especially at the Convention Center. Those people have no food. FEMA just admitted that they didn't know those people were there. :(

[Calmegja2]

Larissa,

That isn't true. I really, really wish you were right, but unfortunately, you're not.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050902/ts_nm/weather_katrina_wrap_dc_2

And as for the partisan judgments, you can wait, if you'd like, but I'm an evidence based type of gal, and some of this is just unbelievable.

It's not partisan so much, as it's the judgment that the people in charge, and the way they have reacted so far, seems in direct contradiction to the way that I would hope or expect that this situation would be reacted to.

And that makes me angry. We look to our leaders in times like this. I just wish they were better aware that we're watching....

[bostonsmama]

Oh, Rachel, how silly of me in my fervor to not more closely read aliceinwonderland's post (sorry can't remember name). I meant Superdome. Disregard comments for convention center.

A little bird told me help is on the way....so, while Joe Schmo at the pentagon doesn't "know," there are people who do. I wish I could say more.

Larissa
who is still trying to give birth so she can have more to say

[starrynight]

At the superdome they have some stuff, the mres and such you mentioned. But at the convention center they have *nothing* they won't go get them, they won't bring in food, water anything. Go check cnn, they have dead people there just up against the wall, some having seizures from dehydration. It's not as pretty as they are saying it is.

[aliceinwonderland]

--sorry, i see you clarified in another post--

That focus is on Superdome (and thankfully so), but the convention center was ignored, the chief did not even know!!!!

I am so frustrated and completely baffled. The US Army, GOD BLESS THEM, was able to airlift Kosovar refugees, accros the continent, from danger onto airbases in New Jersey. But we can't save our own people in the middle of the country!!

[Calmegja2]

From National Geographic, October 2004:

It was a broiling August afternoon in New Orleans, Louisiana, the Big Easy, the City That Care Forgot. Those who ventured outside moved as if they were swimming in tupelo honey. Those inside paid silent homage to the man who invented air-conditioning as they watched TV "storm teams" warn of a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico. Nothing surprising there: Hurricanes in August are as much a part of life in this town as hangovers on Ash Wednesday.


But the next day the storm gathered steam and drew a bead on the city. As the whirling maelstrom approached the coast, more than a million people evacuated to higher ground. Some 200,000 remained, however--the car-less, the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those die-hard New Orleanians who look for any excuse to throw a party.

The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea level--more than eight feet below in places--so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it.

Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.

When did this calamity happen? It hasn't--yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City.

- National Geographic, October, 2004

[Rachels]

I'm not trying to give you a hard time in particular. I'm just worried and angry, and I think that people feeling upset about the way this is being handled is valid and is okay to express. We don't need to wait until it's all over to have and to share those feelings.

But I wasn't talking about Joe Schmo at the Pentagon. I was talking about people like the director of FEMA. It's a BIG deal.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

[bostonsmama]

"I am so frustrated and completely baffled. The US Army, GOD BLESS THEM, was able to airlift Kosovar refugees, accros the continent, from danger onto airbases in New Jersey. But we can't save our own people in the middle of the country!!"

I know...I don't understand anymore than you do. It is certainly not out of want (for the military to fly them out of there). I can't really say anything more, but military members have been going down there in droves, tirelessly searching for people to rescue. My God, there are NINETY THOUSAND SQUARE MILES to cover...it's like you don't know who to go for first. I'd like to believe people are moving as fast as possible. I equate it to being a fireman in a neighborhood that is ablaze...and every house has a family member you love in it. Who do you go get first? Do you even take the time to put out the fire, or do you just run and get people out. What happens when your arms get full...or when you know you might not make it out alive if you go in for Aunt Jane, versus saving cousin Sally.

You're right, it's really so friggin horrible and I don't know why it isn't working out the same as it has in other situations (except that there are so many people than by saving one you are killing another).
Larissa
who is still trying to give birth so she can have more to say

[Calmegja2]

Well, for one, think about where large quantities of our resources and armed forces are right now.

We were stretched precariously beforehand.

I can't imagine how bad it is now.

I have ultimate faith in our military men and women, but there are only so many of them, and only so much that they can do.

[HannaAddict]

It is too little, too late. It isn't quite the 2 or 3 "hots" and a cot that some claim is living high on the hog. I see the post was edited, but I guess I just don't see the nation as a whole doing what they can. If so, it is pathetic.

Kimberly
DS 3/18/04

[SuenosDelMar]

Okay - this is freaky. I truly hope the 50,000 dead is something that does not come to fruition.

Regarding the OP, I haven't seen much news coverage today, but the thing that struck me today was the smirk on our fearless leader's face as he talked about how help was on its way. I don't think many of us are smiling about any part of this situation, why is he?

[christic]

The contradiction tearing me up is knowing that the program put in place by Congress to update levees and pumping stations back in the 1990s was aproximately $250 million dollars in funding away from finishing the job. But by a couple years ago money for the projects had been cut and cut by the administration. The excuse was protecting the homeland and the Iraq war. But then just a few weeks ago Congress passes and the president signs a transportation bill including the infamous bridge to nowhere in Alaska, with a price tag of, well a little under $250 million. This bridge will affect the lives of under 10,000 people. The population of New Orleans is more like 500,000.

I just feel like this country is being looted rather than governed :( AND what's making me feel personally ill is knowing I have some of the loot--in the form of a tax cut our family didn't really need, at least when I'm looking at what these people are going through down there. Not to mention the poverty they were living in before the hurricane hit.

I'm thinking about figuring out exactly how much we got in that tax cut and gathering what I can of it and sending it to the Red Cross. It feels ill-gotten now.

Chris

[jk3]

I agree. In general, I feel politicians on both sides of the spectrum are governed by special interests but the examples you point out are shocking yet only the tip of the iceberg. Around election time, I stated that my family's life would not change in any dramatic way based on who was elected. In fact, with the current administration we would benefit financially. Yet, we did not vote for this administration because we were thinking of the greater good. The situation in the affected areas is horrifying in that some of the devastation was preventable, especially since they knew it was coming. It seems that those lacking resources were/are an afterthought and while that is deplorable it seems to be in keeping with the current administration's philosophy.

Jenn
DS 6/3/03

http://lilypie.com/baby2/030603/2/5/1/-5/.png

[AngelaS]

Why is this the federal government's problem? Where exactly is the democrat governor of Louisiana? Why did he not have a plan for this kind of emergency? The STATE government SHOULD have people in place to deal with emergencies, why aren't THEY doing THEIR jobs??

And perhaps a revolution is just what we need. The government ISN'T doing the job it was set up to do 200+ years ago! The states should be taking care of themselves, not depending on the federal government to tell them waht to do!

[Calmegja2]

Pardon me, but I think my head just exploded:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20050831_katrina_template_050831?s_name=&no_ads=

Sounds like great news, right? After they clear the hurdle of being allowed into the country by the HS act, that is.

Well, then read this:

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20050901T000000-0500_87388_OBS_THOUSANDS_FEARED_DEAD__NEW_ORLEANS_ TO_BE_ABANDONED.asp

So, we said no to international help.

Why not, at this juncture, take help from any corner that we can get it? The people in trouble, hurt, dying and hungry don't care where the help comes from, so long as it comes.

[karolyp]

Yes the situation is bad beyond belief....

But I just think we need to get above this political finger pointing and start focusing on what's most important here: helping people make it through this disaster

We're wasting too much energy on all this negativity.

[Calmegja2]

>Why is this the federal government's problem? Where exactly
>is the democrat governor of Louisiana? Why did he not have a
>plan for this kind of emergency? The STATE government SHOULD
>have people in place to deal with emergencies, why aren't THEY
>doing THEIR jobs??
>
>And perhaps a revolution is just what we need. The government
>ISN'T doing the job it was set up to do 200+ years ago! The
>states should be taking care of themselves, not depending on
>the federal government to tell them waht to do!
>
*****

Have you heard of the term federal disaster area?

Right now, like or lump it, the way our government is organized, that states are not all independent. There is supposed to be a network in place to help deal with these things, as well as to make provisions to help them not occur (or not occur to this magnitude) in the first place.

The government of Louisiana is not without blame. But there are great big fingers that can also be pointed at the federal government, for not responding, prior to this tragedy, to requests for help made by Louisiana to help realize plans and safety measures, plans made in accordance with how the federal statutes currently stand.

The money that was supposed to be allocated to the states was diverted, mostly in the war effort (a war which had it's reasoning changed again on Wednesday). And many, many NG and military members are overseas right now.

How independent can they be, at this point in the game?

[Calmegja2]

>Yes the situation is bad beyond belief....
>
>But I just think we need to get above this political finger
>pointing and start focusing on what's most important here:
>helping people make it through this disaster
>
>We're wasting too much energy on all this negativity.


****

I can appreciate your point, but I think there is positive energy to be spent when you try and figure out what went wrong.

It can go a long way in trying to prevent it happening again, when you know what you're truly dealing with.

I absolutely agree that energy should be directed towards help.

But there's energy to be spent on analysis, too, with the eye of trying to make sure it doesn't happen again.

[Rachels]

We've said no to LOTS of offers of international help. I can't believe it. They're talking about it being another three or four days before they get adequate National Guard presence down there. People aren't going to survive that long. To refuse help is disastrous and cruel and just so horrific I can barely stand it.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

[Wife_and_mommy]

I'm with karolyp. The last thing we need is to argue about what should have been done by the federal govn't. They can't fix *everything*.

It is absolutely gut-wrenching that the decent people who just need some help, food, water, etc. can't be rescued because a bunch of *&(&^**&^()^^U* criminals are hampering the rescue efforts. Makes me angry and sad beyond belief.

Tell me the sense in this: You're in the middle of nowhere with water up to your knees/waist/chest, what are you going to do with TVs, 10 pairs of Nikes, AK-47s(!!). People taking water and food to feed themselves is not the problem. I think we can all agree on that.


Elizabeth

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_gold_12m.gif[/img][/url]

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/dogdogcrd20040405_4_My+child+is.png

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/p/dev035pb___.png
Our second morsel due early February 2006!

[Calmegja2]

And now we've got shoot to kill orders:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4207202.stm

[Wife_and_mommy]

I don't want to/won't get into an argument but what do you propose they do? Innocent people can't be rescued because thugs are acting like idiots!


Elizabeth

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_gold_12m.gif[/img][/url]

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/dogdogcrd20040405_4_My+child+is.png

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/p/dev035pb___.png
Our second morsel due early February 2006!

[Calmegja2]

I propose that, because of the massive retooling of FEMA and the HSA, that we should have had a reasonable plan in place to help in such a disaster as this.

The thing is, this disaster could have happened anywhere. We could have had a terrorist attack on a scale like this at any point in the US.

We should have had the capability to be able to mobilize quickly and efficiently, and get the job done, no matter if it was based on a LA bayou, or the Arizona desert.

We can't. For all the crowing about safety and our responses, and our plans for national security, I'm seeing for all our time and effort and money, we've got a pretty color coded system of terrorist alerts, and not much else.

Did you know what happened in June? Bush cut $71.2 million from the budget of the New Orleans Corps of Engineers, a 44 percent reduction. He also suspended a study on the impact of category 5 hurricanes on urban areas. He also reversed Clinton era rules on wetland buidlings, and under Bush, thousands of acres of wetlands were drained, further reducing natural storm protections and barriers.

Did you know that 35% of LA's National Guard is currently in Iraq? That goes to Angela's point about the states helping themselves. You cannot have it both ways. Also, LA's NG has high water vehicles, generators and refuelers. The majority of which are currently in Iraq.

I could scream.

What do I propose they do?

I propose that they feed people. I propose that they make sure people have adequate shelter and amenities. I propose that they have adequate numbers of help and military support/containment to secure those areas being looted, so the opportunities don't present themselves in the first place.

Right now, I am terrified and angry, and I suddenly have a very clear picture of what's going on in Iraq right now. Total devastation of the environment, and not support to help stabilize. Every time we plug one leak, another one starts.

It's enough to make a girl feel utterly hopeless.

I can't say it enough. This isn't about partisan politics. This is about human responses to crises, and the ability to plan ahead. Conservative, liberal, or independent, the human mind and the people working in the government should know better.

And they should do better.

[smallestangel]

I think it's beyond terrible that we're refusing all the foreign offers of help. IN MY OPINION it just reinforces the image of us as arrogant Americans. It alienates us once again from the international community.

It makes me so sad. Dh and I had our unofficial honeymoon in New Orleans. He's in the Air Force and had to leave the day after our wedding so I went to visit him a month later at Keesler AFB in Biloxi while he attented tech school. We spent time in NO and I had a wonderful time. The images of all the places I remember so fondly being destroyed is heartbreaking. But not so much (obviously) as the images of hungry, crying babes. I can't watch it anymore.

Amanda

[laretce6]

Jessica, I agree that we should all be terrified because clearly if there's another terrorist attack we are not prepared to respond with aid and that could happen anywhere (and those of us with means won't have warnings to evacuate first).

Caroline
Mama to Eleanor Katherine 8.2.04

[Wife_and_mommy]

I completely agree that plans should have been made. But they weren't.

I live near water though not on it and have already started to make new hurrican preparedness plans. The ones we had would be utterly useless if a Cat. 5 hit us.

I have family that is non-chalant about it all. My mom owns an assisted-living facility. She wouldn't have the means to transport all her patients out of harm's way. I'm speaking with her about it. The patient's families can/should take responsibility for them. I will not leave my mother and other family to die because some might not want to take responsibility for themselves. I shudder to think had it been us who'd been hit, I'd probably be left with no family.

There are churches who have helped dh's grandpa in the past during a smaller cat. hurricane. Why couldn't those same churches help bus people out of harm's way? I'm fully aware that some didn't have the means. Those are the ones that should have asked for help *before* the catastrophe happened. Some people didn't take the warnings seriously and are now paying for it.

I can honestly say I don't know why anyone would live in N.O. I feel vulnerable enough and I don't live 8 feet below sea level.

I have another question: Does anyone remember if anything like this happened during Andrew in '92? I was a teen and think I would have remembered complete anarchy if it had happened.


Elizabeth

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_gold_12m.gif[/img][/url]

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/dogdogcrd20040405_4_My+child+is.png

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/p/dev035pb___.png
Our second morsel due early February 2006!

[Sarah1]

What irritates me is that they KNEW those levees could not sustain a hurricane above a Category 3 (I believe that's correct; someone chime in if I'm wrong). Talk about a disaster waiting to happen.

[starrynight]

>Why is this the federal government's problem? Where exactly
>is the democrat governor of Louisiana? Why did he not have a
>plan for this kind of emergency? The STATE government SHOULD
>have people in place to deal with emergencies, why aren't THEY
>doing THEIR jobs??
>
>And perhaps a revolution is just what we need. The government
>ISN'T doing the job it was set up to do 200+ years ago! The
>states should be taking care of themselves, not depending on
>the federal government to tell them waht to do!
>

How do you feel about the goverment helping out after 9-11? When the tsunami hit? Aid in general to other countries?

How can you not want the gov to help these people? It's inhumane not to. If we can pledge millions to other countries and this war to "bring democracy" to another country wth can we not help our own people??? I'm starting to think it's been done on purpose, cut the largest portion of people on federal aid at once, if you can't afford to evacuate well you are on your own. Call me cynical but I don't see too many white people with beach front mansions dying out there right now. And Louisiana has been asking for the money to build up the leeves and better protect NO for years, it's been denied. Then on top of that FEMAs budget being cut does not help. As Jessica has brought up the National Guard situation also. You can't have it both ways just as she said.

[starrynight]

And yet then Bush said the relief efforts were unacceptable, I'm baffled. Dude you cut funding big time and then refused help from more than one country and then you are complaining it's not getting done right or fast enough??? You are running the show jacka$$~!

[Calmegja2]

Oh, good. Now it's the victims' fault that they are trapped:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.fema.brown/index.html

[kijip]

The federal government is the only entity with the ability to bankroll efforts like this. Faith based aid is not going to work when churches themselves must flee.

And in turning down help, Bush is SQUARELY responsible when people die afterwards.

The buck has to stop somewhere, and that is the position you put yourself in when you are elected President. PERIOD. If not willing to be held accountable for your budget cuts, your tax cuts that benefit the well off and your friendly relations with big oil, then you don't get to be President.

[m448]

I was in the heart of it all when Andrew hit S. Florida in '92. That's why I'm scratching my head as to why the heck NO didn't look like a ghosttown before the hurricane hit.

In Miami on the flood prone areas police were knocking on people's doors forcing them to board buses. It wasn't a choice. They were taken to red cross shelters in safe areas and provided for. After the hurricane there was looting. Local authorities stepped in right away to bring order because they knew it would be a while before the NG and the red cross could reach certain areas.

Which is why I'm wondering what the heck the mayor of NO and the governor were thinking. Everyone with a car evacuated in an orderly fashion and he's calling for greyhound buses NOW? Why didn't this happen before? Why did they totally ignore logic/policy that the red cross will not set up shelters in a flood-prone area for the safety of their volunteers (which means the whole area hit). Why turn the other way and offer some half-hearted solution like the superdome? It was half-hearted because they weren't even stocked with supplies. Why not order the police who were standing around amidst the looters to stand in the doors of the stores and distribute bread, diapers, formula, etc. yet not allow people access to all the other crud like GUNS that they got their hands
on?

I understand it's taking long to get to the area but the people shooting at rescue helicopters, shooting at the medivac copters at the hospitals, trolling around the convention center in gangs are not helping things along. Where is the mayor? I keep hearing his voice but I haven't seen him anywhere in the video reports. Is he hiding somewhere?

[Calmegja2]

He's all over the place, actually.

There's tape of him, um, cussing out FEMA/Bush that's been widely played. Bush has requested that Nagin come and meet him at a local airport for a discussion later today. We'll see how that plays out. Nagin's kind of busy right now. I'm not sure how much time for a photo-op he has.

He is most definitely not hiding. He screwed up, the governor screwed up, and Mary Landrieu, the senator I formerly admired, has completely lost it.

I read that one of the main reasons that the evacuation was ineffective was besides not having the means to transport people out of the city, there was not an adequate police/military presence to do the door knocking, and to try and get large numbers of people out.

You can't make it happen with just wishing. They don't have enough people to do the things you listed, and now there are widespread reports of officers simply handing in their badges, rather than do this, because they realize the futility of attempting this without the proper amount of backup.

We knew this was coming on Friday. Last Friday. I still remain stunned on every level, by the utter incompetence of the whole operation, on every level.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/national/nationalspecial/02storm.html?ei=5094&en=d2abfacae2d859f8&hp=&ex=1125633600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

[aliceinwonderland]

Imagine this:

You're the head of the family. You work two minimum wage jobs to pay bills and make ends meet. You use public transportation and barely make it paycheck to paychek. You have 4 kids and live in a dilapidated two bedroom rental. You hear the mandatory evacuation, and, even though you may not quite believe it, you see all the white people drive off in their nice SUVs, so you think, hmm, maybe we should get away too. You have no car. Even if you did, not enough money for gas as you *just* payed some bills and the payday advance place is closed. Even if you scramble 20 buck here and 10 there, can you leave all your stuff behind, as, after all you live in an apartment and there's no insurance you are left with clothes on your back?

What do you propose to this particular father in this situation? Take the family and start walking? The officials could have used trains or buses to evacuate, but they DID NOT.

Funny that *some* people (this is not directed to any poster in particular) who do not believe in evolution sometimes propose a very sick version of survival of the "fittest".

[m448]

that's exactly what I addressed in my post. In Miami authorities were knocking on people's doors and basically telling them to get packed and get on the bus. yes, there were people with no insurance and they were worried but the authorities made the executive decision to get them all out of there. After the hurricane authorities were standing outside of neighborhoods not allowing entry for a while and when they did you had to provide a license or proof of address.

That helped because most of the looting was short-lived and even then limited to storefronts and not people's houses. The buses in this operation were provided by the city, churches, and other local organizations. They picked up homeless and elderly alike, no distinction.

ETA: just so you don't think I'm up on some high horse we lived in South Miami, not exactly your affluent neighborhood. Other than insurance (something which my dad is almost paranoid about) we WERE the working poor. That father of 4 you mentioned - my dad, father of 3, as well as my grandparents who lived with us.

[karolyp]

Why is this thread getting so much response than the other thread "What are YOU doing to help the hurricane victims?"

I (personally) think we need to rechannel this back and forth criticism to something more positive/productive.....

BTW, thanks AngelaS for starting that thread....it's very uplifting

[m448]

Because I'm a big believer in "let not your left hand know what your right hand does," and touting my own efforts to help does nothing for those people there.

However I think on this thread people are doing what's exactly human nature - when unable to understand trying to wrap our brains around this tragedy.

[hez]

I got curious-- sometimes these kinds of stories are email rumors. So, I got out last October's NG. And yup, the story is there word for word (your post is an exerpt of a longer story examining the impact of natural disasters and human factors on New Orleans & Louisiana).

It just makes me even sadder.

[bostonsmama]

and I think you should delete your very rude and incorrect generalization about people believing in creation equating a horrible natural disaster and our country's efforts to help people as a deliberate form "survival of the fittest" that we relish. It is sick and wrong to say that...and I think it's gone too far.


Larissa
who is still trying to give birth so she can have more to say

[starrynight]

>Because I'm a big believer in "let not your left hand know
>what your right hand does," and touting my own efforts to help
>does nothing for those people there.
>
>However I think on this thread people are doing what's exactly
>human nature - when unable to understand trying to wrap our
>brains around this tragedy.


ITA on both counts. I did post in the other one, not to toot my own horn but to shut up the attitude of if you are going to complain about the gov what did you do. Since I complained about the gov....

[Rachels]

Let's tread carefully, everyone. No particular names have been called here; let's keep it that way. I know this is heated and that feelings are intense. It's okay to post what you believe in, no matter which side of this particular argument your beliefs land on.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

[Rachels]

I don't think that helping people and venting are mutually exclusive. If you're angry and frightened, it's okay to say so, and we don't need to assume that that means that you're not doing something to help.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

[SummerBaby]

These have been my thoughts exactly. Yes, the feds have not had their act together. But what good is a mandatory evacuation order if the local authorities can't help people who have no means to get out? They knew about this storm for days! Why not round up all the school busses and, like Miami did for Andrew, knock on doors and get people out????? And then to bring people to a place with no food or water???? At this point there's no use pointing fingers, but I just can't imagine how such utter chaos could happen in a major US city.

Val
Mom to Madeline
7/28/04

[Calmegja2]

>>Because I'm a big believer in "let not your left hand know
>>what your right hand does," and touting my own efforts to
>help
>>does nothing for those people there.
>>
>>However I think on this thread people are doing what's
>exactly
>>human nature - when unable to understand trying to wrap our
>>brains around this tragedy.
>
>
>ITA on both counts. I did post in the other one, not to toot
>my own horn but to shut up the attitude of if you are going to
>complain about the gov what did you do. Since I complained
>about the gov....


****

ITA with both of these posts. And for exactly the same reasons.

I need to talk through this. I need to try and understand it. I need to know what happened, so that I can work hard at doing what I can to prevent it from happening again. I need to work as hard at understanding it as I do at helping with the aftermath.

It's not an either or proposition for me. It's both.

As for the pointing fingers, it has to be done. With issues of this magnitude, it's irresponsible not to examine the causes, and to figure out what went wrong (as well as what went right). Otherwise, history is doomed to repeat itself.

I question our leaders, on both sides of the aisle. It's my job to do so. Accountability is necessary.

[Calmegja2]

>These have been my thoughts exactly. Yes, the feds have not
>had their act together. But what good is a mandatory
>evacuation order if the local authorities can't help people
>who have no means to get out? They knew about this storm for
>days! Why not round up all the school busses and, like Miami
>did for Andrew, knock on doors and get people out????? And
>then to bring people to a place with no food or water???? At
>this point there's no use pointing fingers, but I just can't
>imagine how such utter chaos could happen in a major US city.
>
>Val
>Mom to Madeline
>7/28/04


***

My understanding is that they did not have the means to do so.

So many issues, so many problems, on so many levels.

[chlobo]

For a number of years I've been involved with a cancer fundraiser where you bike a long distance and take a boat back. One year there were torrential downpours which made it impossive for people to take the ferry back. Luckily, the organizers of the ride had a *contingency plan*, which allowed them to call in buses and bus back the 4,000 riders to their original destination.

If this one nonprofit organization can have a contingency plan in place to take care of its 4000 riders in case of emergency then why couldn't NO? It's not like the possibility of the Cat 5 hurricaine wasn't known. It's not as if they didn't have warning about coming storm. I just don't understand why *all* levels of government couldn't work together to do the door to door evalucation strategy to get these people out of harm's way. And, I don't understand why they told people to go to a place that had inadequate supplies. Where is the logic? It infuriates me that the people least able to take care of themselves - poor and infirm - were left (and continue to be) left to fend for themselves. It's outrageous. I just don't understand it.

And while there is plenty of outrage here on this board, where is the rest of it? They just announced that despite high gas prices they expected a record number of *DRIVERS* this weekend in Massachusetts. So where is the "conservation" in the face of shortage?

I feel like we are very much doomed as a country as so many of our "leaders" are shortsighted in their "leadership" and so many American are so complacent about it. As long as someone stands up and says "it's ok, everything's going to be alright" we believe it. Well its hardly alright in Louisiana, now is it? And we're all just that half step away from a similar disaster. Mother nature doesn't care about geography or political party.

Sorry to vent but I've been so depressed about the lack of preparedness and response. It's making me ill. And yes, I have donated and if my daughter were older I would become trained as a disaster relief person and fly right down there to help.

[cmdunn1972]

Both situations are horrible. Imagine this:

You worked hard your whole life and put yourself through medical school by playing guitar in a band. After school, you did all the 'right' things: paid your bills, took on more and more responsiblity at work, raised a family, bought a house. You are now a neuroradiologist who supervises residents at the hospital in New Orleans, and you're about to take it one step further and pay $10,000 to get your lawn landscaped. Then the hurricane comes and you leave your home with your family one day before. You hear news reports about homes and businesses in your neighborhood being looted. Worse, everything you worked so hard your whole life for has been washed away in less than a week. Then, you are told that your medical skills are needed back home in a hospital with no running water and no electricity. You are to be airlifted to your location while your wife and kids escape to Puerto Rico. The looters are armed now, so you aren't even sure if you'll survive.

Yet, he is one of the lucky ones.

Heck, they're all hurting. That's the funny thing about Mother Nature: she doesn't discriminate between rich and poor.

[aliceinwonderland]

Edited to add *some* and also point out that I said "sometimes". That is the sad impreesion I get, and I would love to be wrong on this one.

I think your interpretation of my statement, which i stand by, is incorrect, but i'm not going to argue about this.

[aliceinwonderland]

Ah, Colleen, I'm not gonna argue with you, I agree!! I was adressing specifically "why aren't people getting away" bit. It's horrible, for everyone, who's gona argue with that!

[Calmegja2]

Nagin is getting louder:

http://abcnews.go.com/

I believe the quote is "Get off your a**es!"

[cmdunn1972]

Alright, then, Thanks for clarifying. :)

[m448]

Nagin, yes anyone know where the heck he is? I see the governor on the news all the time but all I here is this guy ranting and raving. I'm really curious as to where he is located?

[cleo27]

"If this one nonprofit organization can have a contingency plan in place to take care of its 4000 riders in case of emergency then why couldn't NO? It's not like the possibility of the Cat 5 hurricaine wasn't known. It's not as if they didn't have warning about coming storm. I just don't understand why *all* levels of government couldn't work together to do the door to door evalucation strategy to get these people out of harm's way. And, I don't understand why they told people to go to a place that had inadequate supplies. Where is the logic? It infuriates me that the people least able to take care of themselves - poor and infirm - were left (and continue to be) left to fend for themselves. It's outrageous. I just don't understand it.

And while there is plenty of outrage here on this board, where is the rest of it? They just announced that despite high gas prices they expected a record number of *DRIVERS* this weekend in Massachusetts. So where is the "conservation" in the face of shortage?

I feel like we are very much doomed as a country as so many of our "leaders" are shortsighted in their "leadership" and so many American are so complacent about it. As long as someone stands up and says "it's ok, everything's going to be alright" we believe it. Well its hardly alright in Louisiana, now is it? And we're all just that half step away from a similar disaster. Mother nature doesn't care about geography or political party."




Well said, Carren. I cannot adequately put my feelings into words right now, but I agree whole-heartedly with each of these points.

Hugs,

[Calmegja2]

He's in NO, right now. They've been talking it on CNN. ;-)

[m448]

I know he's somewhere in NO but with all the coverage of the Convention Center, Superdome, heck even the streets, why isn't his face even showing up on the news? You would think since he really has no office at this point he'd be hands on and helping in these places but all I hear is his ridiculous jibber-jabber.

[Calmegja2]

In case you're curious, for me, at least heck has just frozen over.

I agree with Newt Gingrich.

From the AP...

"...Even Republicans were criticizing Bush and his administration for the sluggish relief effort. "I think it puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" said former House Speaker Newt Gingrich..."

[cleo27]

Wow, I never thought I'd agree with something that came out of his mouth...

[Rachels]

It's unthinkable for anyone at any time to lose everything they have. Unthinkable. But I also think that the neurosurgeon in your example is going to ultimately be okay. He still has his training and skills, which are still going to be in demand wherever his family relocates. He's going to have insurance to help him recoup the monetary value of his losses. He is going to have a network of colleagues and business acquaintances that are going to help him.

The level of immediate grief and loss and trauma are no less intense and frightening. But his ability to move forward from here is strikingly different than what's going to be experienced by most of the families that are stranded down there.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

[Sillygirl]

When I started this thread, I was trying to articulate the way our government ignores so many of our population every day. I'm going to try again to say what I mean, not to redirect a debate that I think has a lot of validity, but because I also want to make the following point.

The hurricane refugees are being offered shelter and relief for an indefinite period. Texas cities are opening their largest structures to house them. Yes, the relief is too slow in coming. Yes, it's the right thing to house them.

If Joe Schmoe homeless guy drove from Chigaco to Houston and tried to get into the Astrodome, would they let him in? If the homeless of Houston asked why they couldn't come inside and have a shower and a safe place to sleep, would they be welcomed?

There are people dying for lack of medical care outside the New Orleans Convention Center. And you know what? There are people dying in every city in America because they can't afford $150/ month for prescription medications, and there's nobody to help them.

The lackadaisical response from our government in the face of Katrina really shouldn't surprise anyone. It's how we treat poor people EVERY SINGLE DAY in this country. I am not trying to detract from the suffering of the hurrcane survivors! I just wish we could address these issues with a more fundamental shift in our understanding, instead of rushing to apply a BandAid when something tragic like this reveals the gaping hole in our social fabric.

[octmom]

Very well said, Katie.

Jerilyn
DS, Sean 10/03

http://bd.lilypie.com/UB6Bm4/.png


"Baby makes days shorter, nights longer, home happier, and love stronger."

[Calmegja2]

Amazingly well said, Katie.

[MelissaTC]

ITA.

[deborah_r]

These are excellent points, and I also strongly agree with your points in your OP about the special treatment given to prisoners. You just know the families of the prisoners would be suing the government later for not making sure they were OK. I bet some of the people commiting crimes in NO over the last few days are hoping they can get arrested and transported to a air-conditioned, dry jail cells with 3 squares a day.

[Wife_and_mommy]

>What do you propose to this particular father in this
>situation? Take the family and start walking?

That's exactly what I was asking DH the other day. It seems to me I'd just start walking if I had no other transportation. The media has shown a dead man on the side of the road that did just that. The weak, sick, young and old are the ones suffering the most yet the strong(mentally and physically) are being selfish and acting without regard for anyone else. It sickens me.

As for the family you spoke of: That will be my family. I talked with DH after thinking about it. My and dh's responsibilities lie with ourselves and taking care of our child(ren). If my family chooses to ignore orders from authorities and stay behind, I cannot and will not put my own family in danger to die with them. They will have had all the warning and pleading from me I can give and it will break my heart to leave knowing I might never see them again. Yet they will have *beared responsibility* in the aftermath by their choice. Being able-bodied and staying just make no sense to me.

I, too, was in Andrew in '92. We stayed in my aunt's boarded up house in Hialeah. After it was over my dad came and picked us up. As I've said, I don't remember any more specifics but it seems what the pp described is what should have happened in N.O. That's the question that begs to be answered.

Elizabeth

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_gold_12m.gif[/img][/url]

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/dogdogcrd20040405_4_My+child+is.png

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/p/dev035pb___.png
Our second morsel due early February 2006!

[Rachels]

I don't get this. WHERE are these people supposed to have gone? How many miles do you think it's possible for someone to walk in a day when they've done no particular physical conditioning to prepare for such a thing? I keep hearing stuff like this, but it's blaming the victims. There were people there-- lots of them-- who had no safe and reasonable way to leave, and they were not helped.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

[Sillygirl]

Just because I want to clarify the point I was making.

The prisoners' "special" treatment is the treatment that ALL Americans should receive. Our country's policy is that health care is a privledge, not a right. The only group of citizens that has a recognized right to health care is prisoners, because that question has been brought to the courts.

The inequality apparent in giving prisoners priority in medical evacuations comes about because our government has only granted a right to health care when forced to by the courts. We should be holding our elected officials responsible for making sure that every citizen has a right to basic medical care - and to housing, and to food, and education.

[kath68]

ITA. I think we have to seriously re-think our tax policies (yes, I think we should pay more in taxes) in order to fund more poverty-related solutions.

The core problem with the situation in NO, and with how we deal with other crises, whether they be natural, terrorist, or societal, is that we (taxpayers) refuse to fund proper planning, building, and support for programs. We seem to expect that the disaster relief will just be there, and forget that relief costs $ we don't have. Let alone funding the environmental corrections that could have been made in the past years when we could have done something to mitigate the damage.

It's pretty basic: we don't have the money to pay for the disaster relief, we don't have the personnel (NG, police, nurses, etc)we need because we, the taxpayers, don't want to pay more than we do. Charitable organizations can only do so much. You need a plan, centralized leadership, and the resources to implement the plan. That all takes money. Without question, our fiscal priorities affect how these disasters are dealt with.

I have to think that if we dealt with the poverty issue better, then when we are faced with disasters like this, they would not be so awful. People could help themselves more, and the anger would not be so prevalent.

[starrynight]

>I don't get this. WHERE are these people supposed to have
>gone? How many miles do you think it's possible for someone
>to walk in a day when they've done no particular physical
>conditioning to prepare for such a thing? I keep hearing
>stuff like this, but it's blaming the victims. There were
>people there-- lots of them-- who had no safe and reasonable
>way to leave, and they were not helped.


Yes!!!!

How does blaming the victim help? It doesn't, it won't make it go away, it won't give them their house back or their job or save their dead family members. Goodness these are people, with babies for crying out loud! Some of the ones that had to stay were also sick or disabled, how far were they supposed to walk, especially in the heat of the south?

[kijip]

Well said, Rachel!

[Calmegja2]

**whistles and stomps for Rachel's post**

[kijip]

>
>If this one nonprofit organization can have a contingency plan
>in place to take care of its 4000 riders in case of emergency
>then why couldn't NO?

Efforts to do so lost funding and people have a permanent "its not going to happen" attitude. And 4000 people is NOTHING compared to this magnitude. It is just not the same thing. This is the utter destruction of a city of 1/2 a million people.

[caridura]

I am just so angry watching the news. Tom Delay is on MSNBC saying that 'now that the President is there it will help alot on getting things moving along'. Huh??? Why does he physically have to BE there to get things in motion? To get aid to these people who are DYING of hunger and from lack of meds???

I just cannot fathom that after 9/11 we are not better prepared for this kind of a disaster.

[caridura]

I could scream too. ITA with your points!

[Wife_and_mommy]

I don't know! I admit it! It baffles me and that's what I was talking with dh about. I just didn't see the sense in just sitting there for days. The looks on the infants faces, older infants drinking Koolaid or Gatorade or whatever just to try to stay hydrated--it's all unbelievable. They're finally getting people out of there but, my gosh, what they've been through is beyond comprehension.

As I said in my previous post, what Miami did in '92 is what makes the most sense. They should have been bussing(sp) people out of N.O. It is absolutely on the local/state officials to have had a plan. This day was coming and they didn't prepare for it. Hopefully ALOT is being learned because it's just a matter of time before it happens again.


Elizabeth

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_gold_12m.gif[/img][/url]

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/dogdogcrd20040405_4_My+child+is.png

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/p/dev035pb___.png
Our second morsel due early February 2006!

[AngelaS]

I find your post quite offensive. Your assumption that just because I don't agree with teaching the theory of evolution equates to my believing the poor should die is SICK. It's not just the poor who lost everything.

My favorite uncle's home is underwater. They just bought it a year ago. The flood insurance they have on it covers less than 1/2 of it's value. They left home with their two kids, dog, a couple bags of clothes and planned to go back home on Tuesday. Now they won't go 'home' for months, if ever. All their household goods, scrapbooks and family pictures are gone. They are alive and where there is food and electricity now, but they too will have to start ALL over. My heart breaks for them. They are good people who worked their tails off to get where they are. NO one deserves this.

[Sillygirl]

Should have, would have, could have - so much spilled milk.

Can't we measure the spill?

[caridura]

OMG...I agrew with Newt! Excellent point!! I am petrified with fear over how we would react when a big terrorist attack happens HERE.

[AngelaS]

MORE in taxes? No stinkin' way! I'd be willing to pay more SALES tax if there were no longer an INCOME tax. Seems rather silly to pay taxes TWICE!

Last night when I was grocery shopping, watching my budget, planning meals to cook from scratch, I was following a woman with food stamps who was buying PREMADE dinners. Must be nice to have MY tax dollars pay for your meals so you don't have to cook!

And yes, at one point we DID qualify for food stamps. Did we get them? NO! We worked our butts off, bought only the bare necessities and made it. Pisses me off that people think it's up to the government (be it local, state OR federal) to take care of everybody!

Okay, I think I'll get off my soapbox and the internet now.

[Calmegja2]

I'm really sorry you feel that way, Angela. But remember, your tax dollars alone weren't going to buy that woman's groceries. It's many, many people working together, in accordance with our federal statutes, to provide those dollars. As was stated in another thread, it's not fair to judge what that person chose to do with that aid. You can't possibly know the whole story.

I feel that we should work together to help each other, as best as we can. It helps all of us in the end, helping those people who need a leg up at one time or the other, whether it be in the form of food or housing assistance, college grants, daycare subsidies, and medical insurance.

I'm glad you were able to work hard and avoid going on assistance.

But what if one of had a catastrophic accident or illness? What if a child of yours was desperately ill? What if the company you worked for suddenly folded, and there were no jobs in your area to be found?

What if, suddenly, your options, your realistic options, were drastically limited? What then? What if, despite your every effort, you just couldn't do it?

Do I like paying taxes at a higher rate? No, of course not. But I see it as an important duty, an important thing that I have to do, because even no one citizen is better than another, and there's that old phrase, there but for the grace of G-d....

I do think our taxes should be higher. What has the lowering of the taxes done for us in the past few years? Our poverty levels have actually increased, and real income has stagnated, except for the very top of the pie.

[newid]

First, I apologize for not posting under my regular id. I do not want people from my husband's job seeing this. I know a few women in his office who read the BBB occasionally (thanks to me), and while they would likely not object to me posting this, I don't want to run the risk of any of this getting DH in any hot water. O.K. Disclaimer over.

DH, more often than not a supporter of the current administration, its policies and practices, has seen firsthand these past few days things that have left his head spinning. (I fall on the other side of the political spectrum, so we often butt heads.) He said that the news reports we're seeing about the how disorganized the Administration and federal agencies have been, and how out of whack their priorties have remained, are beyond true. (He admittedly knows little of the state and local efforts.) While caravans of busses are finally being sent to pick up those sadly stranded in NO and surrounding areas, the drivers have been given tacit instruction to be sure to pick up anyone in the (weathly, white and often Republican) suburbs on the way into the city. And if the bus fills before the inner city is reached, oh well, turn around and do the same things again. FEMA does not expect to have the Superdome evacuated for five (FIVE!) days, and this seems acceptable to many in charge.

Granted, there is so much involved in organizing a relief efort, and reallocating resources (monetary, equipment and personnel) is a challenge. But many people in a position to help are being told to "sit tight and see how this plays out." Offers of non-monetary aid from all over the world and even some private U.S. companies are being turned down, not because we're not yet ready for asssistance (I can see how having to coordinate everyone's roles takes time) but because we have things "under control." Yeah, right.

There's much, much more, but I'm running out of steam. And getting very sad. I already posted my personal comments to these threads, but also wanted to add some from the perspective of someone who has up until now been a supporter of the current Administration. Thank you for letting me get this off my chest. I hope no one feels personally attacked by my post, that was not my intent. Like many of you, I needed an outlet. DH turned to me as his, and I am turning to you. No more anonymous posts, I promise.

May we save and help as many as possible, and learn from our mistakes.

EDITED TO ADD: I mean absolutely no disrespect or blame toward those working for the military or other government branches who have their hands tied and get their orders from above. My issue is with those making the plans and/or issuing the orders. Just wanted to be clear. Those going in and helping, risking their own safety, are truly heroes in my book.

[Bethann31]

Ok, now MY head has exploded. Surely, this is only 1 blathering fool and others don't listen to him, right???

http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_9292.shtml


Beth
mom to:

Josh 3/90
Mollie 4/92
Jeffrey 12/94
Katherine 6/03


http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/lamlamsvi20030604_4_Katherine+Grace+is.png

[deborah_r]

I understood what you meant, I was just being brief. :)

[Rachels]

That's so sick and disgusting that it barely merits a comment. What a shameful, nauseating, pathetic person.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

[HGraceMom]

Pointing fingers is fine, and accountability is fine.

I think fingers FIRST need to be pointed to a local level. The state did not prepare to protect it's own citizens.

I think fingers SECOND need to be pointed at a federal level. The federal government was not move quickly enough to move in and take over once the state government assistance collapsed.

I think fingers THIRD need to be pointed to the citizens. Voting for mayors, governors, representatives, senators, and the president are OUR responsibility. If you know you voted, work in any way you can to get others to vote respobsibly.

Calling names isn't responsible action. Insulting isn't responsible action. Being an armchair quarterback isn't a responsible action. Supporting those people, troops, and charities who are helping is a responsible action.

I tried to stay out, but felt that there are too many people who are working hard, under the worst of circumstances, to remedy the situation, to keep quiet.

I appreciate those who are helping, am saddened by those who are hindering, and am praying for those who feel hopeless.

[MelissaTC]

ITA Rachel.

[brittone2]

ITA. From the time this happened, DH and I discussed what this means if terrorists launch a large-scale attack again. All of the training, all of the work towards better communcation between federal and local goverment, all of the effort to make sure we would have a plan in place if something horrific were to happen....it all seems for naught at this point. We obviously weren't prepared to handle an event in which we had rehearsed for and of which we had advanced warning. Scary.

What is even scarier is that terrorists could decide to strike at a time like this when our resources are already stretched so very thin. And then what?

[Calmegja2]

>Pointing fingers is fine, and accountability is fine.
>>
>Calling names isn't responsible action. Insulting isn't
>responsible action. Being an armchair quarterback isn't a
>responsible action. Supporting those people, troops, and
>charities who are helping is a responsible action.
>
>I tried to stay out, but felt that there are too many people
>who are working hard, under the worst of circumstances, to
>remedy the situation, to keep quiet.
>
>I appreciate those who are helping, am saddened by those who
>are hindering, and am praying for those who feel hopeless.


*****

Who's calling names?

If it's armchair quarterbacking because the information that warned those in charge that this was coming was easily accessible, and those in charge were well aware of it, and should have been planned for, then so be it.

I don't see how I am not supportive of those who are helping by criticizing the people they get their marching (or not marching, as the case has been) orders from. I want better for both the victims and the rescuers (some of whome who have been shot at and harmed in their efforts, again, due to poor planning/response).

You know, I do support the people, the troops, and the charities. But there's more to support than just being positive that all will turn out well in the end. It is possible to be supportive of the actions being taken by the real heroes of the situation, while criticizing certain actions being taken.

Actions that are hindering the ability to help.

[cmdunn1972]

Rachel, the neurosurgeon in my 'example' is my cousin. He's being airlifted back to N.O. today (if he wasn't already earlier today). Yeah, sure he has his skills and training, assuming he isn't taken out by some and armed looter that he's ultimately trying to help. (Hey these people have been shooting at rescue helicopters, for goodness sake.)

[kristine_elen]

"Why is this the federal government's problem? Where exactly is the democrat governor of Louisiana? Why did he not have a plan for this kind of emergency? The STATE government SHOULD have people in place to deal with emergencies, why aren't THEY doing THEIR jobs??

And perhaps a revolution is just what we need. The government ISN'T doing the job it was set up to do 200+ years ago! The states should be taking care of themselves, not depending on the federal government to tell them waht to do!"

Wow, I want to reply but I'm not sure how...

A sarcastic comment noting that Jesus would probably have probably said the same exact thing as you? (Wasn't he the first to coin the phrase, "Too bad, so sad"?)

Asking you if New York should have taken care of itself after Sept. 11 with no help from the federal government?

Asking if you've ever driven on an interstate road?

Asking if you've ever sat in the blazing sun with your babies, starving to death and suffering from dehydration as news helicoptors fly overhead?

Really, come on!

[starrynight]

ITA with you yet again Jessica.

Angela and others that complained about what is bought with food stamps, why act and point fingers like it took food out of your own mouth, it didn't. You are not 100% alone supporting these people. Everyone pays taxes, and taxes alone go for many things besides food stamps. It goes for roads, libraries, schools, paying the military and lately fighting the war. You would rather people, children go hungry than pay higher taxes? Lowering taxes never helps the poorest people, the ones on aid, Jessica is right it has only increased poverty levels which in turn tends to increase applications for aid.

This next comment is general, not directed at anyone here or in this thread just a common thing I notice..not all republicans are religious but many of them are, but yet they want to help the least, give the least I just don't understand how someone religious could not want to help others.

[starrynight]

How absolutely gross. I feel sorry for the person that really believes such crap.

[squimp]

I think you're right. The first thing you learn in hydrology is that water flows downhill. So a whole city downhill from a huge lake, with fragile levees holding back the water....it truly was a disaster waiting to happen. What makes this disaster such a tragedy is not having the resources in place to evacuate all the people who were unable to evacuate themselves.

[AngelaS]

So now you're going to say the religious ones do not want to help?? Gimme a break! Most of the 'religious people' I know are the ones who weekly give to the work of their churches and other causes. Our church supports a huge ministry to special needs adults, single parents AND a food pantry among other things.

I did NOT didn't think we should help. And I think it's really rude to generalize that "many" of the Republicans/religious folks give the least! That's like saying all liberals are meth users or something.

[bluej]

Just b/c someone doesn't want higher taxes doesn't mean they don't want to help (or that they don't help). Some people feel that their money is better spent giving to charities or giving directly to a family/person in need. I don't know of a single person, Democrat or Republican, religious or non-religious, who does not want to help others. I do know plenty of people who don't trust the government to distribute the money gained through tax dollars in an appropriate or desired manner though when it comes to helping the less fortunate. I would never accuse anyone of not wanting to help just b/c they don't want higher taxes.

[starrynight]

I never said all. And I'm not really talking about helping with Katrina anymore, it was more about the food stamp/wic help in general comments. We were talking about tax dollars and you were very upset that *your* tax dollars bought someone else's premade meals. So I said what I did. I also didn't say they give the least, I have no data on how much or little they give. It's just a very basic argument I hear very often from some republican people, who most often are also religious. I just don't like the general attitude of the poor deserve nothing and if they just worked harder they wouldn't need help and then taxes wouldn't go up. It's a silly arguement because as I said taxes go for much more than food stamps. And some people work very hard, 2 jobs even and still need assistance because they work at 1 or 2 low paying jobs or live an in area that is very expensive.

[starrynight]

>Just b/c someone doesn't want higher taxes doesn't mean they
>don't want to help (or that they don't help). Some people
>feel that their money is better spent giving to charities or
>giving directly to a family/person in need. I don't know of a
>single person, Democrat or Republican, religious or
>non-religious, who does not want to help others. I do know
>plenty of people who don't trust the government to distribute
>the money gained through tax dollars in an appropriate or
>desired manner though when it comes to helping the less
>fortunate. I would never accuse anyone of not wanting to help
>just b/c they don't want higher taxes.


I didn't name names or accuse any one person, but that said.. Thank you for your point of view Jen, it explains why you or others that feel the way you do much better than complaining about someone with a cell phone or what they bought with food stamps or using wic checks. I can understand your point, I don't trust the gov very much myself.

[Rachels]

Okay, it seems like things are simmering down a bit, but I just wanted to post a reminder to keep this as civil as possible, please. Everyone is upset. Let's tread lightly as much as we can.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

[kath68]

I am sorry this got heated. My original point is a simple one. For better or for worse, we have chosen as taxpayers to do government on the cheap. The natural result of that is when bad things happen, those with less are affected the most. The politicians know this, we all know this, yet our national policy is to trim the budget to the barest amount rather than raise money to assist those that fall below the safety net.

Local, state and federal governments are strapped for cash, and it is always more expensive in the long run to react to a crisis then prevent the crisis to begin with. But we choose to spend our tax dollars (and deficit spend) only when the crises (predictable though they may be) arise. Where do we expect the money to come from for the billions of dollars it will cost to rebuild New Orleans? How do we expect NO or Louisiana or Mississipi to assist the people who need it when they are broke even before the storm hit? It is fiscally irresponsible not to raise and spend money to mitigate foreseeable disasters. It is not a conservative/liberal or religious issue, it is a financial one and a moral one. Sure, it is hard to spend when the problems are only hypothetical, but that's what fiscal responsibility is about -- stopping the expensive crisis from ever happening, as best you can (not saying that the hurricane was preventable, but things could have been done to make NO safer). And what is our government for, if not for assisting those who cannot help themselves?

I agree that it is great to give directly to charities, but charities can only do so much. What is needed in NO is a centralized system of crisis management. No independent charity can do that. It has to come from the government.

Again, I had no intention of raising a religious issue. I apologize if I offended. The religious charities do amazing work in this country, but IMO we rely on them too much and ask them to do more than their share.

[Calmegja2]

ITA, Kathy. ITA.

[kijip]

Sales taxes are regressive and hurt the poor the most. Income taxes are a far my equitable way to tax. I save (ie do not spend) a huge chunk of my income and feel that I should rightfully pay more in taxes than someone with 1/2 my income who must spend every cent they earn to make ends meet.

My mother gets food stamps. She is totally disabled and unable to cook. She gets just a small amount of food assistance per month, enough to buy food for 1-2 weeks. She eats with us alot. But at home, she eats a lot of tuna, crackers, veggies that just need to be microwaved etc. How do you know this lady you saw can cook or has a place to cook? Maybe she does not have a kitchen (I have a client whose kitchen consists of a dorm fridge and a toaster oven and a 20 year old microwave-cooking is not something she can do!). Maybe she was an aide buying food for a disabled person. You have no idea what her situation is. It would be like me walking after you deciding that the groceries you buy are too expensive or not healthy based on my priorities and that you should save and spend money EXACTLY like I do.

The government is in the business of public health and safety. Poverty and hunger contribute to a great degree of public unhealth and public danger. Thus it is the government's job, everyone's job to do something about it!!

[kijip]

As I understand it, rolling FEMA into the Dept of Homeland Security has meant that terrorism has been the main focus of our planning efforts. Well, folks, this is larger than ANY terrorist attack we have ever seen in the USA. I fully expect that the death toll will hit 10,000.

ETA: For those that think that political comments do not belong on a Baby Bargains board or in a time of crisis...politics is life. My political views are more important to my parenting than any baby gadget...I want to work so that Toby grows up wanting to help others and so that he questions and improves this nation's leadership as needed!

[caridura]

Very well said.

[kijip]

I am glad that the President is going. It is the kind of leadership he needs to show. Now he needs to back up his visit with action.

Also, I expect him to get off his convoy and talk to victims. If he does not get off his convoy, I will laugh my as* off at him.

[chlobo]

While I, on the one hand, believe we should pay taxes I also believe the government has some kind of responsibility to spend wisely. There is a *LOT* of pork barrel spending at the federal level. Ordinary citizens often have a hard time accessing politicians while special interests who spend tons of money on lobbying are often given more access to politicians.

What I would like to see is adequate funding of what needs to be funded, such as FEMA and less funding of stupid things like the Big Dig (I am from Boston so benefit from it but think it was an outrageous sum of money) and projects like that.

[kath68]

ITA. The lobbying system threatens to (if it hasn't already) taken the government away from the people and places it in the hands of the special/corporate interests (there are more lobbyists for the pharmaceutical industry than there are congressmen).

What to do? We all want our tax money spent wisely, and certainly there is disagreement as to what that means. But the system is broken, and I don't know what we do to make the policy-makers listen to us, not the lobbyists. Voting is the one thing we still have in our back pockets.

[Calmegja2]

Can I nominate Kathy to be my personal spokesmodel? ;-)

ITA. Again.

[egfmba]

Okay, I just feel a need to clarify:

Prisoners get mandated health care because we (the government) have taken control of their physical being and have effectively prevented them from seeking health care on their own (by imprisoning them). It matters not that they committed the crime that landed them in prison; death by heart attack is not part of the prison sentence. It also doesn't matter that they may or may not have the ability to pay for health care on their own outside of prison; once again, we have physical control over them, and must allow access to health care. Since the other option is to let them free to find an emergency room, and since they have not yet paid their debt to society, that's not an option.

I just don't think it's as simple as the government being forced by the courts to provide health care. The basic issue is fundamental fairness and basic rights. When we remove some of those rights because one commits a crime (like freedom to go anywhere one chooses), we have not necessarily removed every other right (like the right to seek health care). Though health care itself is not a fundamental right that the government must provide (unless they've removed your ability to seek it yourself), the government certainly can't legally prevent you from seeking it (and if they physically prevent you from seeking it, they must provide it).

[egfmba]

I just told someone earlier that this was going to arise as an issue. My question: why hasn't a hurricane hit Las Vegas? Isn't that 'Sin City'? And why hasn't a hurricane hit the very author of that article, because isn't judgment God's job? And anyone who deems themselves a god is a sinner, right? So why hasn't God struck that author down? I'll tell you, I'd give my right arm for an answer that makes that guy's logic make sense.

How on earth does anyone still believe in a hateful, vengeful, evil personification of God? I always thought God loves everyone and gives us all an opportunity to make amends with Him. But this guy's god comes straight from some horror story!

[Calmegja2]

I can't help but post this, as my head just exploded:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3335685

Halliburton has a contract for rebuilding Hurrican Katrina. It was assigned yesterday. They also have been assigned to repair work in the gulf.

We have people trapped in the convention center, and corpses on the roadways, and armed gangs roaming the city of NO, but Halliburton has a job already.

Where is #### Cheney right now? I remember Gore in waders in one of the NC disasters. Where's #### at?

**eta Um, I'm not cussing. Apparently the filter won't let me say his first name. LOL!!!!!

And then there's this:

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf

[Calmegja2]

double post

[Sillygirl]

See, I think that health care IS a fundamental human right, and our government, alone among those in the developed world, has yet to get the memo.

[KrisM]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015

A photo of school buses sitting in flood waters. Maybe they could have been used last week to evacuate people.

[KrisM]

Colleen, I hope your cousin is fine. I am sure you and your family are very worried about him. I hope he's able to help some people. I'll keep him in my thoughts.

[HannaAddict]

My sentiments exactly. There is such a huge difference between "losing everything" and not being able to have your lawn relandscaped and really, truly losing everything. Just think of the mothers holding their children who are unresponsive. There is no comparison.

Kimberly
DS 3/18/04

[HannaAddict]

I so appreciate his service. And I hope he stays safe. It is a horrible experience for anyone. It doesn't take away from his grief, stress, trauma at all to acknowledge that there are those worse off - including those he is going back to help. Please let us know that he stays safe and I am very glad his family is safe.

Kimberly
DS 3/18/04

[HannaAddict]

I understood what you were saying and agree.

Kimberly
DS 3/18/04

[egfmba]

I didn't say health care wasn't a basic human right. I said it was not one of the basic human rights the government is not constitutionally mandated to provide **except** for those US citizens they hold in custody, thereby preventing those in custody from independently seeking health care.

Do I think the Constitution would be nicer if it did mandate health care for everyone? Sure. I'm all for national health care. But that's a different question. Whether it's fair to not help everyone *but* prisoners get access to health care? When everyone else is "free" (using the term only in the sense of not being in government custody, not in terms of the other factors preventing the uninsured from accessing affordable healthcare) to find their own health care, more fair than completely denying prisoners adequate health care. If I ruled the world (and one day, I just know I will ;)!), I'd give everyone access to a doctor. No one in this world should have to go sick because it's either medicine or food. I know some may interpret this as me pushing a socialist agenda, but whatever. I just think if every person were actually sick and uninsured for a week, everyone would suddenly find national healthcare a great idea. It's really a sad statement, though, that we need a sort of 'Freaky Friday' to get people to understand the plight of the uninsured/underinsured.

[HannaAddict]

Do you understand how regressive sales tax is compared to an income tax? I bet your family would actually benefit from less or no sales tax versus income tax.

Kimberly
DS 3/18/04

[HannaAddict]

I agree. And I'm sorry people feel like pointing fingers at someone buying food they disagree with because they are on food stamps. But do they blink at #### Cheney's or even Al Gore's "deductions" on their tax filing every year? Or big companies? Nope. Why not? Because it is so much easier to feel superior for not needing help, or doing without it, rather than facing the reality of how little money really goes to children on WIC or Medicaid versus funding the middle and upper classes tax deductions, tax cuts, corporate deductions and "entitlements." I myself have the "feds" subsidize my home in a fabulous neighborhood through the mortgage interest deduction. I received some federally subsidized student loans too. I would rather pay more in taxes and have FML and health care for all, not just seniors.

And, hey, since I barely drive anywhere, why do I have to pay so others can have nice highways to drive on so they can live outside the city in bigger houses? (Rhetorical question!) Just trying to point out, taxes pay for a lot of things, things not every one needs. We are supposed to be a community and not just get to pay for what benefits us individually. Not everyone gets the same pair of bootstraps to "pull themselves" up by. It doesn't mean you are a worse person or weak. And not going on food stamps doesn't make you a better person.

Kimberly
DS 3/18/04

[kath68]

Gosh, and all this time I have been admiring your eloquence. Seriously.

Just as a shout out to everyone who is still reading this thread:

THANK YOU.

I know BBB is not supposed to be political, but I find myself coming here to read what good thinkers (and kind hearts) of different stripes have to say on very important topics. Beats any political blog I am aware of. The civility amidst informed disagreement is inspiring.

I really believe that it is discourse like this that will force the change we need.

[boys2enough]

>Gosh, and all this time I have been admiring your eloquence.
>Seriously.
>
>Just as a shout out to everyone who is still reading this
>thread:
>
>THANK YOU.
>
>I know BBB is not supposed to be political, but I find myself
>coming here to read what good thinkers (and kind hearts) of
>different stripes have to say on very important topics. Beats
>any political blog I am aware of. The civility amidst
>informed disagreement is inspiring.
>
>I really believe that it is discourse like this that will
>force the change we need.

ITA! Both of you! I come here partly to read what kind of intelligent discussions are being made and information being shared. I esp. enjoy Jessica's posts. And now I have found another voice of reason that I look forward to "listening to." :)

I am a fan! LOL

Cheers, Lin
Mom to 2 wild boys
D 3/98
G 11/02

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/kao/otn/pnoodles.gif

[Sillygirl]

Word.

[MelissaTC]

All I can say is ugh. I want to say that it is surprising but unfortunately, it is not. :(

[starrynight]

Colleen, although I do agree with Rachel that it would be a lot easier for him to start over....I think right now it's got to be very hard on him mentally to put on his brave face and go help everyone while he also has nothing. I'm praying he stays safe and is able to help others.

And while I'm at it, just sending good thoughts and prayers and thanks to anyone in the area that is helping, the local police and fire crews and even some of the local to the area military have lost everything and they still have to go out there and do their job.

[starrynight]

Kathy, just wanted to say well said. And I agree with your post a bit further down about the civil and intelligent discussion going on. I'm a fan of Jessica's too :). And going to now agree with her that I'm a fan of your's. Did I make any sense here, not enough coffee today~~

[starrynight]

>I can't help but post this, as my head just exploded:
>
>http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3335685
>
<snip>
>http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf

Get your video recorders ready because for once folks, I'm speechless. I think I need to go throw up :(


edited to remove enough of the quote to make the post easier to read.

[christic]

There's so much here I'd like to respond to but I can't keep up! So I thought I'd post a link to an AP article that really summed up how I feel about it all. It's a critique of the government's readiness for disasters across all levels of government and across all party lines.

http://tinyurl.com/atntv

It's just so frustrating to see tax money being thrown around this way. No, sorry we don't have money to protect 100s of thousands of people from an inevitable natural disaster, but here have all the money you want for this pet project that will help no one but the contractors whose pockets you're lining. Nothing short of ripping up the energy and transportation bills and starting from scratch with real live American people in mind will begin to restore my faith in this government.

I heard David Brooks on NPR last night speaking about the moral fallout from all of this. We abandoned our weakest citizens in New Orleans, people too poor to own transportation, babies in hospitals and the medical staff trying to care for them, old women sitting in wheelchairs in nursing homes needing medication. He compared it to leaving wounded soldiers on a battlefield--Americans just don't do that.

Because the party in charge right now likes to throw around Morality and Family Values so much I have a hard time not feeling an extra large dose of anger towards them right now, but it's a problem much deeper than who won the last election. It's about getting our country back for our children. None of us as parents could imagine depriving 5 of our children food and healthcare to buy 1 other child a Playstation--but isn't that what we're letting our politicians do?

The original post here mentioning the French Revolution felt rather jarring when I read it, but I'm beginning to wonder what options are left :(.

Chris

[HannaAddict]

FYI - the governor of LA is a SHE not a HE. Not that I am a big fan.

If you are curious as to "why this is the federal government's problem" you might want to check out your own state's (Iowa, right?) emergency management plan for information on how our FEDERALLY based emergency management system came into being. It is very informative. For example, there was no plan at all prior to the 1930's, then after WWII the feds started getting their act together primarily based on military threats, and then moving into natural disasters like floods in Iowa in 1993, that WE as a nation helped pay the $2 billion dollar price tag for. Iowa itself has had 17 "major" disasters just since 1989, of which 15 were designated by the President as federal "major disasters!!" Ironically, most were floods. The document is a PDF so I can't cut and paste the great chart here, but here is the link: www.dom.state.ia.us/planning_performance/plans/strategic/HLS_EMD.pdf

Another interesting point, is that a ton of federal disaster aid is really FARM aid for crop shortfalls when there is a drought or flood. And yes, Iowa is one of the leaders of the pack. It isn't just family farmers getting bailed out once in awhile, but rather is an ongoing problem (from Environmental Working Group's farm subsidy database, as of 2002/2003):

But as disaster aid dependency increases—measured by the number of years out of nine that a farmer or rancher received taxpayer help—USDA data reveal a segment of farm operations chronically dependent on disaster aid collecting the majority of federal assistance.

EWG's analysis finds that over 28 percent of the recipients — 329,604 individuals, partnerships, corporations or other entities--collected disaster aid from taxpayers at least one year out of three, accounting for 70 percent of total farm disaster aid over the period—some $7.86 billion.

Over 15 percent of the recipients (176,379 farm entities) collected disaster aid at least four years out of nine (44 percent of the time). This group, which we consider chronically dependent on disaster aid, took in just over half of the farm disaster payments provided over the period, $5.7 billion.

About 30 percent of the taxpayer assistance ($3.36 billion) went to an even more dependent group of 76,287 recipients (7 percent of the total for the period) that collected disaster checks every other year (five years out of 9, or 55.5 percent of the time).

At the extreme end of the disaster-dependency spectrum are about 26,000 truly disaster-prone recipients who received disaster money at least six years out of nine; this seven percent of all recipients took in 13 percent of the disaster aid, about $935 million. Among that group are 8,384 who claimed disaster aid for seven years out of nine, 1,686 who got disaster payments eight years out of nine, and 27 recipients who got a disaster check from taxpayers every year for nine straight years.

*****
I used Iowa in this case, but what this really shows is that while we can all look inward at our own self-interest, thinking that we have no reason to pay taxes and assist in a flood thousands of miles from where we live, all our lives and local economies (even if not a farmer yourself) are dependent on others and GOVERNMENT assistance more than we might know or want to admit. If the states want to go it alone, or you think they should go it alone, is Iowa planning on cutting us all a check for the federal farm subsidies it receives and flood relief? I accept funded Paypal. :)

Kimberly
DS 3/18/04

[kath68]

That' all really interesting information that I had no idea about.

I am aware -- forgive me for not including a cite -- that Cal and NY provide an incredibly disproportionate amount of federal tax income per capita, and the plains states take in more than they contribute. Yet NY and Cal traditionally are for stronger federal government, despite not getting their fair share of the apple pie. I find it interesting and ironic that the "let's have the states fend for themselves" view is often voiced from states that have a hard time historically without federal assistance.

That said, California (where I am from) would do better than most states on its own. It is one of the world's largest economies, has lots of agriculture, water, ports, and is still somewhat on the cutting edge of developing technology. In my dark moments I think it would be great to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, and let the midwest fend for itself. Trust me, I don't really think that way in my sane moments. :)

To hear some in other states talk, they'd be happy to see us Californians go, what with our crazy liberal bent and our tolerance for alternate lifestyles. No wait, that would cut deeply into the nation's GNP. Maybe we should let those crazy immoral Californians stay after all. Makes you think, doesn't it?

[chlobo]

Chris,

This is exactly how I feel and what prompted my thoughts of moving to another country. However, I have no idea what the solution is. I don't necessarily think that Democrats (rather than the current administration) would have done substantially better. I think it all needs an overhaul with better accountability and less power to the special interests.

[Rachels]

Colleen, I agree. I don't mean to minimize in the slightest what he's going through, and I know you must be incredibly scared. My sister lost everything in a fire several years ago, and I know how the trauma of something like that lingers. I just meant to say that in terms of the eventual ability to recover, and even the ability to seek and receive the emotional support you need in that effort, someone who has had the resources to get through medical school has a significant advantage over most of the folks who are still stranded down there.

My thoughts are with your cousin in hopes that he stays safe and healthy, and also with you.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

[lmariana]

Nothing personal but I did want to point something out...

After the tragedy of 9-11, every state and local government had a MANDATORY commission to develop an emergency contingency plan in the event of ANY emergency, not just terrorism. When we are talking about where the buck should stop, I believe it rests with the local government of New Orleans.

For over THIRTY YEARS they have been "discussing" plans to rework the levies and strengthen the water situation. For over THIRTY YEARS, engineers have recommended the New Orleans repair and update its water situation and develop a pumping system that would assist in the event of a flood. Given the fact the the city is below sea level, this should have been a priority and taken care of long ago.

From an engineer's point of view (which, by the way you NEVER see interviewed on the news), this tragedy was bound to happen to New Orleans in the event of a hurricane, without upgrading and repairing the city's water system, and every engineer knew that. This wasn't a surprise.

THREE DAYS before Katrina hit the gulf, my father (env. engineer and former NO resident) predicted that New Orleans would be destroyed and the city was not taking the situation seriously enough. He even phoned all his contacts in NO to see what was being done to prepare for the inevitable.

I understand that people living in an urban area with pubic transportation do not have cars and had no viable way to evacuate, and other people simply could not evacuate because of medical or personal reasons. It was this this situation where the city of New Orleans' emergency contingency plan should have gone in to effect and started evacuating its citizens or at the very least emphasized the danger they would be facing and how to prepare.

I won't pretend to know what they should have done, but shoving thousands of people into an un-stocked, un-prepared Super Dome at the last minute wasn't the best of plans...considering that the local government of New Orleans had knowledge that the city could not withstand the hurricane conditions and would flood.

Personally, I would rather have a president handle the real aspects of his job and not babysit our locally elected officials to see if they're doing their job or not.

I agree that there were errors in judgement, but in the case, the blame just does not go to the "top".

Mariana
www.heinzandmariana.com/news.html
www.heinzandmariana.com/deals.html

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Join the BBB Preggo Pals
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[kijip]

"After the tragedy of 9-11, every state and local government had a MANDATORY commission to develop an emergency contingency plan in the event of ANY emergency, not just terrorism. When we are talking about where the buck should stop, I believe it rests with the local government of New Orleans."

Yes, but the plans mean NADA without resources.

Truman had it right. The buck stops at the top as far as I am concerned and I would feel that way if a Dem was in the Oval office as well.

It was the administration's move to roll FEMA into The Dept of Homeland Security NOT local officials. Listening to my local sherrifs, the head of emergency response in my area and others I have consistently heard that the federal money promised after 9/11 did not cover what was and is needed. This has been a national issue. Federal money shortchanged over 30 years (through both Republican and Democratic administrations) the projects which were proposed back in 1965.

I am sorry, Republicans don't get to have it both ways. No one should control the Federal government and pretend that nothing is their fault. Bush's refusal to admit mistakes is legendary and was highlighted in the 2004 debates.

[sbjf]

I have stayed out of these discussions on both boards I am a member of, mainly because I won't judge anyone (the victims or the government) since there is no way for me to understand the true logistics behind the decisions being made.

However, I do want to say that I thank you for writing this post, Mariana. I happen to wholeheartedly agree with what you have written.

Side note...today I saw a convoy of National Guard trucks loaded with supplies and National Guardsmen leaving Newnan (GA) and heading to the victims of the hurricane. I happened to have a camera and took some pictures, I'm so proud of the folks who are helping right there in the trenches.

[ShayleighCarsensMom]

I have to totally agree with you!
You said it far better than I could have.
and Katie, fwiw, I dont think this is a reb. vs. dem. issue. Many republicans and democrats have been in the office over the last 30 years, and not a SINGLE one of them did anything to prevent this type of accident.
I just hope that the city can rise above this some day.

[ddmarsh]

>
>For over THIRTY YEARS they have been "discussing" plans to
>rework the levies and strengthen the water situation. For
>over THIRTY YEARS, engineers have recommended the New Orleans
>repair and update its water situation and develop a pumping
>system that would assist in the event of a flood. Given the
>fact the the city is below sea level, this should have been a
>priority and taken care of long ago.


>
>I agree that there were errors in judgement, but in the case,
>the blame just does not go to the "top".

Perhaps you've missed the extensive coverage of the ongoing struggle between NO and the federal government over funding for the levvies. Here is but one article on the subject:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-050831corps-story,1,2364215.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true


They have begged and pleaded for funding for this for years. To suggest that the problem is that NO didn't understand the situation is shockingly misguided.

[kijip]

Thank you!

[kijip]

I don't think it is Rep vs. Dem at all- I said that this had been ignored by both parties in the last 30 years at different times but please note it is most often Republicans pointing locally (to Democrats. FWIW, I protested and complained and wrote letters and fussed everytime Clinton did something I didn't like too!

LA has been asking for help for years and it had not come. Period. Bush had five years in office to address the issue and he did not. As President, he gets to take responsibility for the entire federal system.

[lmariana]

Thanks for posting the link Debbie, it's good to have all the info presented.

Regardless of the lack of funding to *prevent* the problem, the city still knew what would happen under these circumstances. Just because you can't fix it, doesn't mean you don't *prepare* for it.

For example...
no one plans an outdoors wedding without having a "plan B" prepared incase of rain. You can't stop the rain or build a roof, so you plan ahead, just in case.

I agree, they can't fix the problem if the money's not there, but you can have an contingency plan in place for such an emergency.

It's horrible that this has happened, and if we could turn back time and change things, we would.

It's similar to the 9-11 attacks where we did have some anti-terrorist measures in place beforehand, but now, as a result of that catastrophe, we are much stronger. The losses in New Orleans will forever serve as a reminder to this entire nation and its local governments that we need to be prepared for any emergency, be it terror or natural.

Mariana
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[christic]

>
>I agree that there were errors in judgement, but in the case,
>the blame just does not go to the "top".
>

But everything you mentioned in your post is the federal government's job for the for the simple reason that they say it's their responsibility. This is from the Department of Homeland Security's website:

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.

[lmariana]

I completely agree with you Christi...when it comes to the clean-up and the post-disaster work, that becomes a federal situation. Thanks for the link!

I was mainly talking about the preparation for the hurricane and the lack of a contingency plan to evacuate the city and/or prepare local shelters that are well-equiped to handle the citizens. I probably didn't come across saying what I really wanted...I'm on a total sugar high from too much juice and cookies right now!

Mariana
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[deborah_r]

But in the situations I have heard about, there were prisoners and non-prisoners in hospitals that were basically not functioning any longer and the patients needed to be evacuated to other hospitals. So why do the prisoners get moved first? They've already been allowed to "seek medical care" as have the other patients in the hospital. So we are not talking about not allowing the prisoners to seek medical care. All of the patients were stuck in the same bad situation, all should be treated equally. I am all for fairly treating the prisoners, I am not for giving them priority in a situation like this.

[caridura]

Honestly, I feel as if we didn't learn anything from 9/11. It seems that the government FAILED miserably in this tragedy and this should NOT happen after 9/11! I don't care if it was state or federal. We should be PREPARED to deal with another major catostrophic event after 9/11 and apparently, we are not!!

The state government failed pre-hurricane and federal government failed post-hurricane. Taking 5 days to evacuate those people is shameful. We can get around the globe quicker than that to help other nations but we can't do that HERE???

[caridura]

>Not everyone gets the same pair of bootstraps to "pull
>themselves" up by. >>

Isn't that the truth. Every single situation is different.

[MelissaTC]

I totally agree with you. God forbid something else were to happen.

[starrynight]

> We can get around the globe quicker
>than that to help other nations but we can't do that HERE???
>

So true. There was a discussion on another board I post at about the aid and the gov. Someone from another country said their army would be there immediatly if this happened. Someone else piped up that *our* (us) army would be there faster. I almost want to laugh if it wasn't so sad.

[boys2enough]

>> We can get around the globe quicker
>>than that to help other nations but we can't do that HERE???
>
>>
>
>So true. There was a discussion on another board I post at
>about the aid and the gov. Someone from another country said
>their army would be there immediatly if this happened. Someone
>else piped up that *our* (us) army would be there faster. I
>almost want to laugh if it wasn't so sad.

Someone at work told me that there are some laws in the US that "prohibits" or "hinders" the military from guarding private properties or something to that effect, and that's part of the reason why the army didn't go in right away. Some "proper" procedures or sequence of events need to be followed. Anybody knows anything about this? Or maybe my co-worker was just huffing?

In addition, I was surprised to find out that in the US, the Fed gov. cannot declare Martial Laws. Or is it yet another untruth?

Cheers, Lin
Mom to 2 wild boys
D 3/98
G 11/02

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[NZmom]

> The
>states should be taking care of themselves, not depending on
>the federal government to tell them waht to do!
>

So you wish you lived in the States of America, not the *United* States of America?

Robin

[NZmom]

I'm a big fan too! Thanks for your great posts, Jessica and Kathy. I wish I could put my thoughts into words like you 2 can.

Robin

[Calmegja2]

Mariana,

I think you missed this point,in your assessment of LA's response in anticipation of the flooding:

Notice the date, and the statutes referenced:

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf

[Calmegja2]

Thanks for the kind words, guys. **blushes**

I'm just happy that we can have this discussion, and the kind of community that supports it. I learn so much from everyone, in bein able to discuss this.

[KBecks]

Excellent post, thanks for sharing that.

[KBecks]

Just wanted to say that I disagree about increasing taxes to deal with poverty. I believe the private sector is more capable of helping out the poor, and I also think that helping the poor is personal responsibility, not government responsibility.

My faith calls on me to help the poor, and its my hope that more people with means would not only give money to the poor, but also have contact with the poor and help them by giving personal, human help. Maybe that's too idealistic, but I think it's the true and best direction for us to take.

[KBecks]

<<This next comment is general, not directed at anyone here or in this thread just a common thing I notice..not all republicans are religious but many of them are, but yet they want to help the least, give the least I just don't understand how someone religious could not want to help others.>>

Sorry, I think that statement is utter ca-ca. How do you know what others are giving? Are you sure there aren't plenty of wealthy, athestic Democrats who only see value in caring for themselves? I think this is mud that is thrown towards religious and conservatives without a shred of evidence to support it.

[KBecks]

This is sad, but true -- when the CEO at your company shows up for a visit to your division, the place is prepared to look good. It's the same with the president. When the president visits, expectations are raised. I imagine that's what Tom Delay was referring to.

[Calmegja2]

>Just wanted to say that I disagree about increasing taxes to
>deal with poverty. I believe the private sector is more
>capable of helping out the poor, and I also think that helping
>the poor is personal responsibility, not government
>responsibility.
>
>My faith calls on me to help the poor, and its my hope that
>more people with means would not only give money to the poor,
>but also have contact with the poor and help them by giving
>personal, human help. Maybe that's too idealistic, but I think
>it's the true and best direction for us to take.
>
>
***

Can I ask a question?

If the private sector is better capable to deal with the poor, since the majority of people left behind and trapped in LA were poor, where was the help of the private sector? Did the private sector have high water vehicles? Troops? MRE and the ability to distribute them on a huge scale? Helicopters and transports?

And what about the issue of private sector help very often being tied to religion? Is that fair if someone of a different creed needs help, but they have to deal with the religious organization's structure to get that help? Even if it contradicts what they know and believe in their own hearts?

[Calmegja2]

>This is sad, but true -- when the CEO at your company shows
>up for a visit to your division, the place is prepared to look
>good. It's the same with the president. When the president
>visits, expectations are raised. I imagine that's what Tom
>Delay was referring to.
>
>
Well, then there's this:

http://landrieu.senate.gov/releases/05/2005903E12.html

Landrieu Implores President to "Relieve Unmitigated Suffering;" End FEMA's "Abject Failures"

WASHINGTON -- U.S. Senator Mary Landrieu, D-La., issued the following statement this afternoon regarding her call yesterday for President Bush to appoint a cabinet-level official to oversee Hurricane Katrina relief and recovery efforts within 24 hours.

Sen. Landrieu said:

"Yesterday, I was hoping President Bush would come away from his tour of the regional devastation triggered by Hurricane Katrina with a new understanding for the magnitude of the suffering and for the abject failures of the current Federal Emergency Management Agency. 24 hours later, the President has yet to answer my call for a cabinet-level official to lead our efforts. Meanwhile, FEMA, now a shell of what it once was, continues to be overwhelmed by the task at hand.

"I understand that the U.S. Forest Service had water-tanker aircraft available to help douse the fires raging on our riverfront, but FEMA has yet to accept the aid. When Amtrak offered trains to evacuate significant numbers of victims -- far more efficiently than buses -- FEMA again dragged its feet. Offers of medicine, communications equipment and other desperately needed items continue to flow in, only to be ignored by the agency.

"But perhaps the greatest disappointment stands at the breached 17th Street levee. Touring this critical site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment. The good and decent people of southeast Louisiana and the Gulf Coast -- black and white, rich and poor, young and old -- deserve far better from their national government.

"Mr. President, I'm imploring you once again to get a cabinet-level official stood up as soon as possible to get this entire operation moving forward regionwide with all the resources -- military and otherwise -- necessary to relieve the unmitigated suffering and economic damage that is unfolding."

[Calmegja2]

Are you sure there aren't plenty of
>wealthy, athestic Democrats who only see value in caring for
>themselves? >
>
>
>

******

I think we should try to avoid groupings of such sort, as we are a nation of individuals, but as an atheistic Democrat (and one who knows that I would financially benefit from some of Bush's financial policies), I have to say that if I valued only myself, and not the idea of government being a strong societal support system, I would be in the wrong party. The current conservative platform is a small government (though federal gov't was much smaller under Clinton, but I digress), and increased personal controls (questioning the right to privacy, and all that flows from that).

So yeah, I would actually wager that there aren't a whole lot of wealthy atheistic narcissistic Democrats floating around out there. ;-) It would be against the circumscribed self interest you mentioned.

And there are many, many religious people who are Democrats. I'm relatively sure, that if Jesus the Christ existed as described in the Bible, his philosophy would make him a liberal Democrat.

We've had fascinating discussions about that in my church (I'm UUA).

Conservatives most definitely do not own theology, though it is the conservative side of the Republican party that statistically and actionwise, are attempting to use religion as a focus point in policy.

And that's not conjecture, but simple fact.

I can appreciate the conservative viewpoint, or at least conservatism as it existed prior to the current administration. I think there is wisdom and value to be gathered from looking at an issue in many ways. I thinkwe all benefit when there's balance in our governmental point of views. When we lose that balance is when I get alarmed. (like now, I'm very, very alarmed)

But the current bent of neo-conservatism, like Norquist's wish to drown government in a bathtub (horrible now, in light of NO), is not one I can understand or gain benefit from.

[KBecks]

This post will contain a few of my feelings as well.

I heard an account from a CNN reporter who was stranded at the New Orleans Ritz Carlton say how they escaped, and how the Ritz Carlton took care of them. They were going to get buses to the RC but couldn't logistically, so the guests needed to walk in the sewage water to the Mariott.

In the words of this reporter, some doctors who were there as guests commandeered some antibiotics from a drugstore (is that looting??) and gave everyone who had to go into the water antibiotics with instructions for follow-up care.

They walked to the Marriott, and instead of 8 buses, there were many more, along with armed guards to protect the guests from snipers. The CNN reporter thanked CNN for getting them out of there.

This really made me think about people who could afford to stay at the Ritz Carlton were treated vs. those at the superdome, etc. I think it's for several reasons.

Ritz Carlton guests had a company in charge of their experience, a company with resources and a high need to ensure the safety of its guests. My guess is also that RC probably did it's advance disaster planning better than the city of NO in general.

Ritz Carlton guests have money and education, which gives them greater resources and skills to help themselves. I think that education is major -- especially practical skills to take care of yourself in an emergency.

I think that the flooding of NO is tragic and am trying to get through to a donation server, they seem overloaded.

I also am very frusted by the political spin, especially when it's still time to help people whose lives are in danger.

For all who are bashing Bush, would you bash Kerry or Clinton had they been in office. (You may SPECULATE that the levies would be fixed under different presidential leadership, but I personally doubt that, given the track record.) I think the situation is a complex failure whose responsibility is on many shoulders -- planning could have been done better by -- local orgnizations (how the businesses, hospitals, schools, etc. all had done their disaster planning), the city, the state, and the federal government.

My prayers to everyone, especially those who have endured this disaster.

[KBecks]

I totally agree with Angela that the majority of the responsibility for preparedness for the storm falls on the local and state shoulders.

Obviously, local, state and federal need to team up to protect the people. And helping out with aid after the fact is a job so large it needs to be done by the federal government.

However, the federal government does not have the local knowledge needed to have impact in preparing for disaster. People need to know what routes are right for evacuation, what places are appropriate for people to stay, where the high ground is in case of flooding, who to contact in the private sector to get help from, in terms of supplies and vehicles, etc. etc.

It's the detail work that happens on the local level, and a good local organizer can help the state and federal "manpower" and resources be used more effectively.

That's all about preparedness, there's no way the federal government could have come in and effectively organized it. AND it's preparedness that could have saved more lives.

As for the dam and levees, that is a federal problem that seems to have been overlooked by the federal government for a long time, longer than the Bush administration.

[KBecks]

Here's how I see not taking financial aid from other countries. We are one of the richest nations on the planet. We have adequate resources to take care of our own.

I felt the same way initially, are we being less than gracious not to take aid? But, the fact is, America can financially handle this recovery, and we shouldn't expect other nations to take on our burden.

If we NEEDED help, I expect we would graciously accept.

I have very high expectations for American individuals and companies to support this cause.

[Calmegja2]

Yes. I am fairminded enough that I would bash incompetence, whenever and wherever I see it.

For the record, I have already faulted Blanco and Nagin on their response to this (both Dems), and I have also contacted my representatives and complained about their lack of response as well.

I think the political spin is necessary, as long as people are also taking action to help.

I look at it this way. Our leaders were elected by us, the good the bad and the ugly of it all. In a time like this, with failures abounding, it does no one any good to simply let the response be only based in dealing with the fallout from a chain of bad decisions.

There's accountability to be had, and with that accountability brings the hope that a future disaster has a chance of being handled better.

I cannot be happy with status quo right now. I think that would be dangerous.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/katrina.chertoff/index.html

We knew this was coming. We had to do better, and we didn't.

[Calmegja2]

>Here's how I see not taking financial aid from other
>countries. We are one of the richest nations on the planet. We
>have adequate resources to take care of our own.
>
>

***

We actually don't right now, though. We are stretched too thinly, largely because of our foreign presence in Iraq (not too muention who own most of our debt right now...we are hardly financially independent right now). We have demonstrated that, and even Condoleeza Rice said on Friday that relief efforts and help from all countries that offered would be accepted and coordinated.
(heack, even the high water vehicles, and 35% of the LA National Guard, not to mention large amounts of generators just for situations like this, are currently overseas).

It's a change from what was said earlier, but the administration has realized that we are in over our heads, right now.

[Mommy_Again]

Great email Mariana. Let me take your analogy one step further:

You are planning an outdoor wedding. To protect yourself from rain, it will cost $10,000 to build a roof. You really want a roof, but you can't afford it. You know that it will probably rain. Does that mean that you won't spend $1,000 and rent a tent? It isn't your first choice, it won't protect you from the rain as well as a roof, but it will make a difference, and it's all that you can afford.

Perhaps state and local governments HAVE been asking the feds for money for years (there are many on these boards who are great at digging up hard evidence, so it would be interesting to see facts). But does that mean that they should just sit around for 30 years and say "oh well, the feds won't give us what we want, so there really isn't anything else we can do"?

I understand that a certain amount of money is required to fix levees, etc. But it should not be beyond the scope or competency of the local and state government to ensure their residents seek shelter before a storm hits. Were there enough emergency shelters in the city? Were the shelters that were there adequately equipped to handle the evacuees?

This is a traumatic and devasting situation. But I don't think it would be AS traumatic and devasting if we didn't have tens of thousands of people stranded on the streets, trapped in their homes, and dying on the street and in shelters.

Last time I checked, local police were not being deployed to Iraq. I do believe the resources existed to get a great number of these people to safety before the storm hit. You also have to realize that a lot of those people didn't WANT to go. There are STILL people in their houses that refuse to leave (today is Sunday).

And just so you know that I am not walking around with blinders on, I do think our federal government was way to slow to react.

[KBecks]

Perhaps our resources are stretched at the government leve.
But we have massive private resources, which will provide a lot of support to those in need. I believe Wal-Mart (hated as it is by some) has already given $15 million of its inventory. American corporations and individuals have huge capacity to give, and hopefully, huge generosity.

[Calmegja2]

>Perhaps our resources are stretched at the government leve.
>But we have massive private resources, which will provide a
>lot of support to those in need. I believe Wal-Mart (hated as
>it is by some) has already given $15 million of its inventory.
> American corporations and individuals have huge capacity to
>give, and hopefully, huge generosity.
>
>
***

This is the thing, though....outside of the government, private corporations and individuals are not required to give. Even you acknowledged that when you stated "hopefully", huge generosity.

So what is in place to take up the slack from what the private organizations can't do?

If you truly believe that disaster relief is best shouldered by prvate entities, is there any oversight you have in mind to make sure it's not discriminately applied? That it's fair to all?

After all, private corporations and individuals are free to mete out their resources as they see fit, andnot necessarily according to where the need is greatest.

If it's all taken out of the gov't's hand....how we apply it fairly?

I think of private corps and individuals as supplemental insurance, but that the majority of the work should be donbe by givernmental agencies, to protect us all.

[KBecks]

I don't mean to have an extended debate, but..

I didn't say that disaster relief should be entirely shouldered by private entities.

I do believe in the generosity and goodness of humans to help one another without public requirement. Obviously government is there to provide protection, but when it is stretched, I agree with you that it's public and private peole who will fill in the gaps --- (getting back to the point) in lieu of aid from other countries.

I think Americans are capable of providing entire relief on our own. However, whether the fed govt accepts aid from foreign countries or not is not a huge issue for me. We can certainly get by without it, though.

[starrynight]

>
>I think we should try to avoid groupings of such sort, as we
>are a nation of individuals, but as an atheistic Democrat (and
>one who knows that I would financially benefit from some of
>Bush's financial policies), I have to say that if I valued
>only myself, and not the idea of government being a strong
>societal support system, I would be in the wrong party. The
>current conservative platform is a small government (though
>federal gov't was much smaller under Clinton, but I digress),
>and increased personal controls (questioning the right to
>privacy, and all that flows from that).
>
>So yeah, I would actually wager that there aren't a whole lot
>of wealthy atheistic narcissistic Democrats floating around
>out there. ;-) It would be against the circumscribed self
>interest you mentioned.
>

Jessica, well said. The democrats aren't the ones complaining about people on public assistance or that the states should have cleaned this one up all on their own. They believe in a social system for all and as already covered, if they didn't they wouldn't be in the democrat party.

So well my statement was without pure data to back it up, I did say many that I personally know. I'm talking IRL people that I talk to all the time, and then to see similar attitudes brought up here it does seem to be a common thing. Sorry if I offended. I may not have expressed what I was trying to say as well as I could have or should have and sorry for that.

[chlobo]

I have to disagree. As capable as we are, we are obvioulsy lacking in something, as our response has been less than ideal. There are probably other countries who have experience and equipment that might benefit us in a situation like this. Plus, I just think that accepting help is not such a bad thing. Admitting that we are human, like all the other countries on this earth and sometimes need help is just not a bad thing.

[christic]

>This is exactly how I feel and what prompted my thoughts of
>moving to another country. However, I have no idea what the
>solution is. I don't necessarily think that Democrats (rather
>than the current administration) would have done substantially
>better. I think it all needs an overhaul with better
>accountability and less power to the special interests.

No, I obviously don't know what the solution is either, but my sense of outrage is coming from how un-American the events of this week seem to me. So it's returning to those ideals that seems the solution rather than running away, although that can feel tempting sometimes too.

A couple places where I think change might be coming:

** I think parents, mothers in particular, are going to start speaking more and more loudly about how this country cares for its least powerful citizens. You're seeing some of that in Cindy Sheehan (whether or not you agree with her) and I think the sense of moral imperative all mothers have to speak out will only grow. I'd give 50/50 odds that the next president will be a woman--from either party.

** Progressive Christian groups have been gaining steam since the last election, especially for their insistence that poverty be at the top of the "moral" agenda. With the pictures we've seen coming out of NO they'll start speaking more loudly too and being heard. You're going to see Jim Wallis EVERYWHERE in the upcoming weeks.



Who knows how it will all play out...

Chris

[starrynight]

I don't think it's only about whether or not financially we need it, althought I believe we do. Funding has been cut from everything already in this country and we are still in debt. I think it's about "help thy neighbor" many times this country has rushed to the aid of others, I don't see getting a little help back as such a bad thing. Whatever helps these people the fastest is what matters, they have suffered through some of the worst things ever. Babies died from dehydration and children and women raped and killed in there :(.

I heard second hand that formula and diaper companies have donated but haven't seen it on the news. And I did see walmart helping and some celebs.

[ddmarsh]

>
>Someone at work told me that there are some laws in the US
>that "prohibits" or "hinders" the military from guarding
>private properties or something to that effect, and that's
>part of the reason why the army didn't go in right away. Some
>"proper" procedures or sequence of events need to be followed.
> Anybody knows anything about this? Or maybe my co-worker was
>just huffing?
>


Perhaps they were referring to the antiquated statute with a name I cannot recall or pronounce whereby the military cannot enforce state law. The problem with using this as "reasoning" however is that the President can revoke it at any time and it has been revoked in past disasters of far less severity - hurricane Ivan, Andrew, and others.

[ddmarsh]

>I have to disagree. As capable as we are, we are obvioulsy
>lacking in something, as our response has been less than
>ideal. There are probably other countries who have experience
>and equipment that might benefit us in a situation like this.
>Plus, I just think that accepting help is not such a bad
>thing. Admitting that we are human, like all the other
>countries on this earth and sometimes need help is just not a
>bad thing.

ITA. There would be a good argument to be made that we are fully capable on our own if the outcome of this disaster were not what it has become. To suggest that we are capable, however, in light of the disaster's images and continued fumbling for an adequate response demonsrates the invalidity of that argument.

[starrynight]

>
>If the private sector is better capable to deal with the poor,
>since the majority of people left behind and trapped in LA
>were poor, where was the help of the private sector? Did the
>private sector have high water vehicles? Troops? MRE and the
>ability to distribute them on a huge scale? Helicopters and
>transports?
>
>And what about the issue of private sector help very often
>being tied to religion? Is that fair if someone of a different
>creed needs help, but they have to deal with the religious
>organization's structure to get that help? Even if it
>contradicts what they know and believe in their own hearts?
>

Once again I'm loving you in this thread Jess!

I highly doubt a bunch of churches, shelters and private organizations have amphibious vehicles and cases of MREs. So not matter what, *some* federal aid is needed. Yes POs can gather food, water, clothing and personal items like diapers and soap but they cannot do it all themselves.

And ITA with your second paragraph as well.

[Calmegja2]

**bats eyes at Jackie**

[kath68]

I think it is entirely unrealistic and a little like asking the fox to guard the henhouse when we place our hopes for disaster relief on corporate America. Corporations are for profit, and answer to their shareholders for the bottom line. That is not to say that they don't do charitable works now and again, but it is a side line p.r. thing, not what they are here for. If they donated funds to the point where it damages the bottom line, they would have Wall Street screaming at them. Charity is against their capitalistic mission (which I have no problem with). Privatizing price inelastic commodities such as protecting the health and well-being of everyone, including those who cannot pay, is a recipie for further disaster.

And when you look at the scope of the damage, $10s of billions of damage, coprorate America can't, won't and shouldn't cover it (It raises unsavory images of cities named like athletic staduims after their corporate sponsors). By comparison, foreign aid doesn't seem so bad -- if it is good when we give in foreign disasters, why isn't it good to receive?

And let us not forget that we are in debt up to our gills already to China. The reality is that the government can't afford this disaster. Charitable organizations are great for handing out food and water and rebuiling homes, but they are not charged with the job of rebuilding cities, jobs, infrastructure. This is a question about raw hard cash. If it were about American pluck I would agree with you, but we are, putting it bluntly, broke.

What choice do we have but to accept the generosity of the world? I think we deserve it. To heck with pride.

[kath68]

Why is it political spin to comment that the leadership failed? Isn't that the hallmark of a healthy democracy?

For the record, it isn't just dems complaining. Fox news (Scarbrough Country, for example), was pretty scathing. And it isn't just the reps that are getting blamed, as you point out. Bush's name is heard the most because he is the commader and chief. When you are the boss, esp. in a democracy, you have to be willing to accept criticism and rally for change. Is that "bashing"? I don't think so. Criticism is not always bashing. And anyway, bashing is good, so long as it isn't a witch hunt.

I think if there is any political spin, it is by people who don't what the questions to be aired. Some say this is not the time to talk about it. But if not now, when? We have short attention spans in this country. I for one think passionate analysis *now* about where we went wrong (and right) when it is fresh on our minds is a valuable contribution to the cause of improving things for those who are suffering. Next step: keep raising the questions when the immediate crisis is over, and force some dispassionate analysis for concrete change. The next step after that: when it is time to vote, remember how we dealt with this, and change/keep our leaders in accordance with our level of satisfaction.

Also, for the record, and I am an equal-opportunity criticizer. You should have heard me go off on Kerry and Clinton. Don't get me started on the failings of my party. And I have, on occasion, agreed with Bush (rarely, but it happens).

[Calmegja2]

>Why is it political spin to comment that the leadership
>failed? Isn't that the hallmark of a healthy democracy?
>


Yep. I totally agree.

I feel like this goes back to the discussion about supporting the troops. When the war first started, there were all the signs up that read, "I support President Bush and our troops."

I support our troops with everything that I have. I wish for them to stay safe, and whole, and to come back safely to their families.

But I can still offer support to them by questioning our leaders about why they are in harm's way in the first place. I can do that, without being contradictory, but I still am putting their health and welfare first.

Questioning the administration that sent them there is not about harming the troops, or hindering their progress. It's about trying to make sure that we only put them in harm's way as an option of last resort.

It just is a motivation for support that comes from a different place than someone who agrees with the administration's policies.

Sorry for the thread drift, I'm just passionate about being engaged in our democracy, and that includes, quite often, criticism (and believe me, I criticize on both sides of the aisle and the middle freely and often ;-) ).

[caridura]

<<Why is it political spin to comment that the leadership failed? Isn't that the hallmark of a healthy democracy?>>

ICAM. I basically commented the same thing elsewhere when someone said it 'wasn't cool to criticize the President during a time of war'. Huh?? Isn't that what America and Democracy are all about? I think it is our duty to hold our leaders accountable for their failures. Especially a failure as massive as this. THOUSANDS of people have died and many of those deaths were preventable.

Our leaders have failed the people of the Gulf Coast. Republicans AND Democrats. There is no political spin.

[starrynight]

>I support our troops with everything that I have. I wish for
>them to stay safe, and whole, and to come back safely to their
>families.
>
>But I can still offer support to them by questioning our
>leaders about why they are in harm's way in the first place. I
>can do that, without being contradictory, but I still am
>putting their health and welfare first.
>
>Questioning the administration that sent them there is not
>about harming the troops, or hindering their progress. It's
>about trying to make sure that we only put them in harm's way
>as an option of last resort.

sorta OT here but my favorite ribbon or bumpersticker ever is "support the troops. bring them home" I do remember when everything first started it seemed it was exclusive that you had to support both and many debates I have had with people about yes you can support one and totally not support or question the other.

[Calmegja2]

You'll be surprised, Jackie, I'm sure (not), to know that is my favorite bumpersticker, as well. ;-)

[starrynight]

>You'll be surprised, Jackie, I'm sure (not), to know that is
>my favorite bumpersticker, as well. ;-)

Not surprised ;). I get a *lot* of backlash for it in my neck of the woods though. I've had a few people bark at me for it. Those that are also military families that don't agree with me that you can't support bush but can support the troops at the same time. I gave up on explaining myself.

[ddmarsh]

>>
>>But I can still offer support to them by questioning our
>>leaders about why they are in harm's way in the first place.
>I
>>can do that, without being contradictory, but I still am
>>putting their health and welfare first.
>>
>>Questioning the administration that sent them there is not
>>about harming the troops, or hindering their progress. It's
>>about trying to make sure that we only put them in harm's
>way
>>as an option of last resort.


I think that this speaks to the heart of the dem-repub division in much of this. Somehow you are anti-American and a democrat if you question, analyze, probe into these issues. The republicans, OTOH, seem to feel that only by swallowing whole decisions and rhetoric put out by the administration are you pro-American, pro-troops and republican.

[kath68]

I think it was Al Franken who suggested that Reps love this country like a child loves a parent -- with the respect of the authority of your leaders.

Dems love their country like a parent loves a child -- by trying to identify the flaws in your leaders and make them better.

Way over simplistic, I know. But thought provoking. Without question, we all love this flawed country. We just do it differently.

[HannaAddict]

While you may agree with Anglela, that is not legally how it is set up. The fed have decided that they are in charge. Period. Meet the Press pointed this out succinctly with the print outs of FEMA's own web site. It isn't a choice for the locals to be prepared, the feds have decided they are in charge. But since they screwed up, they are spinning this to blame the locals (ie democrats). It is all politics. Sad. Very sad.

Kimberly
DS 3/18/04

[crayonblue]

Baloney. To say that republicans want to give the least and to imply that the "religous" don't want to help others is ridiculous. Way too broad a statement.

ETA: Just read a post by Jackie clarifying.

[crayonblue]

I have to disagree here. My mom was on food stamps after my father left and she was trying to get through school and raise 3 kids (I was already in college.). She too worked her butt off and did everything she could. But, she also humbled herself and took the food stamps. She was grateful for them and actually got more money per month for food than she budgeted before. So, yes, she bought items that she wouldn't normally buy- Godiva icecream, pre-made meals, etc. I don't think she was evil for using the money the government gave her.

My brother is on permanent disability and thank God the government is willing to help him. He is proud to own his own home (with a 1% loan) and is proud to have a job (making less than $10,000 per year). He does the best he can and the government does the rest.

[crayonblue]

"I'm relatively sure, that if Jesus the Christ existed as described in the Bible, his philosophy would make him a liberal Democrat."

Just thought I would stand up for Jesus and say I am relatively sure you are wrong about that! Jesus was perfect so he would not be a liberal Democrat or a conservative Republican. I won't get into what issues I think he would have a problem.

[Calmegja2]

>"I'm relatively sure, that if Jesus the Christ existed as
>described in the Bible, his philosophy would make him a
>liberal Democrat."
>
>Just thought I would stand up for Jesus and say I am
>relatively sure you are wrong about that! Jesus was perfect so
>he would not be a liberal Democrat or a conservative
>Republican. I won't get into what issues I think he would have
>a problem.
>


***

Most definitely agree to disagree here. You can stand up for what you believe Jesus the Christ to stand for, but in my interpretation of the Bible, and my readings of the philosophy attributed to Jesus, I find he falls in line with, by and large, the liberal side of the coin.

But that's the beauty of it all. No one really can claim perfect understanding of his positions (if he existed). I can only say that in my estimation, and in my readings of acts attributed to him in the Bible, I find him more in line with the liberals.

You may find differently, which is okay. It's just another reminder about the differences in religion. If people could agree on every point, there's only be one religion (and no sects within it, eh? ;-)

[crayonblue]

Jessica,

Would you mind emailing me at crayonblue75 @ yahoo.com? I intended to email you awhile back but couldn't find your email and have a question for you.

[christic]

Are you suggesting we privatize disaster relief and prevention? I completely agree with your assessment of why Ritz Carlton guest were treated better than people in the Superdome, but I don't get your underlying point. I don't see how to ensure companies have a "high need to ensure the safety of its guests" when some of those "guests" are destitute...how does the company gain from that? And is the private sector supposed to ensure the practical education of the poor? The Department of Homeland Security says it's their job on their website:

"Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS."

It's a bit like an outfielder waving other players off of a pop fly and then yelling at them when no one catches it.

Wouldn't it have been great if all that water would have been held back by the "Wal-Mart Levee?" If that $15 million would have come before this disaster instead of after it? It's a silly point of course but I don't see how we as a country can wait around for private companies to see that it's within their interest to keep Americans safe. While I'm all for the money coming from private sources, I look to my elected leadership to coordinate what's needed and where rather than to corporations who are required only to maximize profits for stockholders.

I'm trying to understand the solution you see coming out of making the Ritz Carlton/Superdome comparison.

[KBecks]

<<Are you suggesting we privatize disaster relief and prevention?>>

No! That's not what I said at all.

I shared that to illustrate that the rich and influential were taken care of, while others without wealth and influnce were not. It's very sad.

I do think the city (and many in charge of caring for the sick and poor) had poor planning.

And I think it's ironic that it's called looting when done by the poor, and commandeering when done by Ritz Carlton guests. Quite a double standard.

That's all.

[kijip]

>And I think it's ironic that it's called looting when done by
>the poor, and commandeering when done by Ritz Carlton guests.
>Quite a double standard.

Hear, hear! The AP had a few pictures of folks wading through water with items taken from grocery stores. The ones with black people were labeled "Looters... The ones with whites were labelled "Residents find food..." Both pictures showed people taking bread and fluids like water and sodas...not jewels or guns...if I can find it again, I will post the link. It really underscores the disparity between money and no money in the country.

And it should be noted that Nagin himself stayed at the Ritz and not the Superdome and did not evacuate to where he might have been more effective (could get better info, issue better orders etc).

KBecks- to answer your question from a few posts ago if as someone critical of Bush would I attack a Democratic President as harshly...heck yes! The NO buck stops with Nagin, LA buck stops with the Governor and the national and thus largest buck stops with the President. I can list off mistakes and things I oppose about all of the Democratic presidents from 1900 on....and similar to a fellow Democrat (Kathy) said...you don't really want to know how critical I got of Kerry during the election...if he tries to run again, I am going to lose my lunch...As an American I celebrate and evaluate my country and as a Dem, I celebrate and evaluate/criticise my party. It makes them both stronger.

[caridura]

Katie, I saw that comparison of the two pictures on CNN this morning!! The black woman w/ sodas and then the white couple w/ sodas and food. One was labeled a looter the other was just 'finding food'. It made me sad....and angry. :(

[Rachels]

What they said! I'm much more concerned about anybody who can't evaluate and acknowledge the failures of their leaders and party members than about those who question them. When I vote, I never punch the straight-party ticket button, even if I ultimately vote straight-party. I consider every candidate for his or her strengths and weaknesses. There were times I was furious with Clinton. Had he responded so slowly and with such inadequacy as Bush has, my fury would be just as substantial. There have been so, so, SO many unnecessary deaths. To say that we shouldn't be questioning our leaders in the face of that is, to my mind, simply dangerous.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
New baby coming in October!
(Holy smokes, it's a boy!!!)


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya Angelou
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

[kijip]

we should stop having elections.

[chlobo]

I don't see how we can analyze this situation to do better in the future WITHOUT criticizing leadership. They are, after all, the ones in charge, regardless of political party. Therefore, if we are trying to figure out what went wrong and how to improve we are going to end up criticizing those in charge. That's just how it works.

And I agree with the poster who mentioned American's short attention spans. If we don't analyze this now we'll lose the opportunity to improve for the future. This incident has brought to light major flaws in our disaster preparedness and those flaws need to be addressed and corrected.

[hellosmiletoday]

Someone posted an excerpt from national geographic and I think its really useful to read the rest...
http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/

...it gives you some other ideas of who to blame. Bush should not be the only target.

You can blame population growth, oil, global warming, etc to name a few.

[starrynight]

>
>Someone posted an excerpt from national geographic and I think
>its really useful to read the rest...
>http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/
>
>...it gives you some other ideas of who to blame. Bush should
>not be the only target.
>
>You can blame population growth, oil, global warming, etc to
>name a few.
>

Global warming is definitely part of it. Bush has been pretty much the worst thing ever to happen to our environment so while he isn't to blame for global warming, he hasn't made the situation any better in the past few years. And as for oil....

And to answer the question of would I question a democrat in this same situation..if anyone else was president right now and did exactly what he did in this situation YES I would still be blaming him/her(I can hope right?) yes I would be still just as outraged and upset and critical.

[starrynight]

NT

[lisams]

"And to answer the question of would I question a democrat in this same situation..if anyone else was president right now and did exactly what he did in this situation YES I would still be blaming him/her(I can hope right?) yes I would be still just as outraged and upset and critical. "

As a Republican I can honestly say I am apalled at how Bush and his administration has handled this. It's enough for me to consider changing to independant. This was the last straw for me, and I wonder for how many other Republicans.

[christic]

Sorry for misinterpreting your earlier post! I agree with you completely on this one.

It all reminds me of still another story I heard on the radio. A man and his wife had evacuated early to Memphis and set up home in a Red Roof Inn. He's a communications repair worker of some kind and his wife works in healthcare. They had mapped out exactly where they'd go when the Big One hit--based on proximity and available work, that they needed to pick up two elderly relatives in the city before leaving, and had booked hotel rooms over the internet before the evacuation. Completely prepared. Now they were organizing relief for other refugees who'd made it to that same motel. And these weren't rich people at all, but they had the basics of a middle class life that could get them out of there: a car, a credit card to pay for shelter and food while they're homeless, technical skills that they can use to find work for as long as they have to stay in Memphis.

It didn't even take a Ritz Carlton level of wealth to get through this safely, even a Red Roof Inn budget will work. It's just shocking to think of all the people there who didn't even have that much.

Again, sorry for misreading what you wrote.

[KBecks]

No problem. The thing that the couple you mentioned had was forethought and skills to plan ahead effectively. I wish more people had the same great planning.

[christic]

Yes, forethought, skills, and let's not forget the importance of the car and credit card. Authorities at all levels have always known that around 100,000 people would not make it out of NO in this type of disaster. That information wasn't from a statewide survival skills test that these people failed but from US census figures showing availability of personal transportation and income. I've heard the problem was exacerbated by the timing of the storm--at the end of the month so that people living paycheck to paycheck had very little cash on hand.

[hellosmiletoday]

I think the blame for the weak levees and massive flooding of NO goes to different people over many decades.

However, I dont know who that blames goes to for the unnecessary loss of life. Why didn't they bring buses BEFORE the hurricane????? There were so many people who either didn't have the funds to get out, or did not have the mental capacity to get out.

Anyway, I can't say that I support Bush entirely, but in nightline episode last night the NO mayor stated in an interview that he genuinely believes that Bush is trying to make it right.

[starrynight]

The median income in that area is well below the poverty line, some of these people made $8000 or less a *year* and the vast majority had no cars so it's not that simple to plan ahead, especially at the end of the month as mentioned above.

Sorta OT here, some people say don't drive, use public transportation, save the gas, save the environment. And then when people don't have cars to save themselves it's their fault. Just something to think about...

[HannaAddict]

I agree that more of us with resoures to do so should have a plan. And those without resources should be try to have one too, but it will be much harder. We are already thinking seriously about what we would do in event of a disaster when before this we felt pretty good for having some drinking water stored in the basement.

But the real problem is that the people do not have a Red Roof Inn or Motel 6 standard of living, let alone a Ritz Carlton. They don't have computers, access to the Intenet, they don't have cars, credit cards, savings, or if they have a job, would lose the job if they evacuated. My husband's client's brother stayed since he was told he would be fired if he didn't report to work, all the while with a Cat. 5 coming. So, he stayed and is now missing (hopefully just in with the masses but alive, since they know he survived the initial storm). I read about others who stayed because their employers told them stay or lose their job (at McDonalds and Blockbuster video in particular).

[cmdunn1972]

Thanks for thinking about my cousin (and all the others giving service in that area). My family appreciates it! :)